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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Garda refused pistol licence

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    #152
    patbundy
    Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭patbundy


    theres only reason why the doj came to the table and that was all the court cases they lost


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    #153
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    To be a bit more reasonable, the DoJ didn't take any court cases; various superintendents did. That they were losing all their cases was merely symptomatic of a problem with the way they were approaching licensing, so the DoJ has put together a consultative body from all areas of administration, not because superintendents were losing court cases, but because the fact these court cases were happening, and with such consistent results, meant that something had gone wonky along the way. So it's not them being battered into submission by litigious shooters - Sparks has made it pretty clear what happens if shooters try that one - but them trying to work with shooters and Gardai to develop a more reasonable setup where this stuff isn't happening. Pretty damn good, no?


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    #154
    patbundy
    Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭patbundy


    hi guys,im just back.had a great week of therapy(highly reconmend to everyone.the peace and quiet).iwm,who said the doj/supers was taking court cases...i know i didnt.it was the shooters that had to take court cases against people who was/ is in a position of power with little or no training,deciding on something they know nothing about except what they see in movies.im all for the fcp and had always said so..grizzly45 i am sorry buddy but i cant see my name and address in a public domain... my wife and kids are too importan to me.sparks i will never go that road of giving the press a bit of freedom with us.NEVER


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    #155
    thehair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭thehair


    patbundy wrote: »
    hi guys,im just back.had a great week of therapy(highly reconmend to everyone.the peace and quiet).iwm,who said the doj/supers was taking court cases...i know i didnt.it was the shooters that had to take court cases against people who was/ is in a position of power with little or no training,deciding on something they know nothing about except what they see in movies.im all for the fcp and had always said so..grizzly45 i am sorry buddy but i cant see my name and address in a public domain... my wife and kids are too importan to me.sparks i will never go that road of giving the press a bit of freedom with us.NEVER

    +1 steve


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    #156
    thehair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭thehair


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    To be a bit more reasonable, the DoJ didn't take any court cases; various superintendents did. That they were losing all their cases was merely symptomatic of a problem with the way they were approaching licensing, so the DoJ has put together a consultative body from all areas of administration, not because superintendents were losing court cases, but because the fact these court cases were happening, and with such consistent results, meant that something had gone wonky along the way. So it's not them being battered into submission by litigious shooters - Sparks has made it pretty clear what happens if shooters try that one - but them trying to work with shooters and Gardai to develop a more reasonable setup where this stuff isn't happening. Pretty damn good, no?
    o yes very good


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    #157
    mildot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭mildot


    Hi
    Just an update on the OP, the applicant has been granted his certs in respect of the original firearm he applied for and a second as a result of OLeary v Maher. To say persistence pays off is a understatement. Well Done BD


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    #158
    dromey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭dromey


    mildot wrote: »
    Hi
    Just an update on the OP, the applicant has been granted his certs in respect of the original firearm he applied for and a second as a result of OLeary v Maher. To say persistence pays off is a understatement. Well Done BD


    It's true, i have got my cert for the original pistol applied for and i also got a licence for a .357 smith and wesson. Hope to take part in competitions in near future and hopefully start winning some medals:D:D:D

    Dromey.


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    #159
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    dromey wrote: »
    It's true, i have got my cert for the original pistol applied for and i also got a licence for a .357 smith and wesson. Hope to take part in competitions in near future and hopefully start winning some medals:D:D:D

    Dromey.

    Congrats, I was refused a .357 revolver "'cause Gardai use 'em". Might be time to reapply :cool:


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    #160
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 15,024 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Might be helpful if the Gardai posted a list of guns they dont use,so we could all avoid the hassle of applying for guns that are considerd LEO/military here and save everyone alot of bother....For an unarmed police force they sure have a diverse selection of guns.Everything from .22 pistols up to 357.:rolleyes::eek:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #161
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    [nitpick]Well, from 4.6x30 on up actually.[/nitpick]


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    #162
    BornToKill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭BornToKill


    patbundy wrote: »
    theres only reason why the doj came to the table and that was all the court cases they lost

    What cases has the DOJ lost? I know there were a couple they didn't contest but what ones did they lose?


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    #163
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    As was pointed out earlier, the DoJ haven't taken court cases over licencing, the Gardai have. There is of course the usual suspicion that there isn't any effective seperation between the two, but frankly I've become more skeptical of that point of view, at least at the level of specific actions. The two may share similar beliefs and general philosophies, but both are convinced they should be autonomous to a degree. In other words, the Commissioner doesn't ask "how high" if the Minister says "jump".


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    #164
    BornToKill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭BornToKill


    I'm not aware of the Guards taking any court cases either. On the contrary, the cases have been taken against them. We have become a very litigious country. Or were we always like that and just didn't have the money for the High Court before?


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    #165
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    We have not become very litigious, we always were (we're the second most litigious country in the world, last I heard). The reason there were not too many cases prior to the early naughties was not a lack of funds; it was that the shooting associations had been informed in the early seventies when appealing the policy of not granting fullbore or pistol licences, that if they did not drop such appeals immediately, the Minister would bring in legislation banning all such firearms; and the popular support this would win him given the situation in Northern Ireland would ensure that they had no chance to prevent it though protests like that which reversed the licence fee hike last year.

    However, it's not really accurate to say that the Gardai have taken no court cases; all of the court cases which were taken were all reviews or appeals of Garda decisions (more specifically, they were reviews of decisions of the Superintentent involved in his person designata capacity). As such, you'd have to be rather disingenous to refer to the court cases you're hearing about as being something which the Gardai had foisted on them, because the court cases were basicly component parts of that decision process.

    edit: And if you were being really pernickity about it, the court cases were not taken against the Gardai, but against Gardai decisions...


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    #166
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    BornToKill wrote: »
    What cases has the DOJ lost? I know there were a couple they didn't contest but what ones did they lose?

    The vast majority of the cases taken were with Garda Superintendents not with the DoJ.

    There are two cases I'm aware of which were with the DoJ (or more specifically, the Minister for Justice):

    National Association of Regional Games Council v. Minister for Justice [1998] IEHC 93
    and
    McVeigh v. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform [2004] IEHC 405


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    #167
    BornToKill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭BornToKill


    IRLConor wrote: »
    The vast majority of the cases taken were with Garda Superintendents not with the DoJ.

    There are two cases I'm aware of which were with the DoJ (or more specifically, the Minister for Justice):

    National Association of Regional Games Council v. Minister for Justice [1998] IEHC 93
    and
    McVeigh v. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform [2004] IEHC 405

    Thanks IRLConor. I was asking which ones the DoJ were lost. Just had a look at the links you provided and the Minister won the McVeigh case. So, is the other one - in 1998 - where the NPWS were found to be at fault the only example or does anyone know of others?


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    #168
    FlyOver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 112 ✭✭FlyOver


    Looking to find a list of cases that have gone before any court regarding firearms certificates, especially 9mm pistol. Any help is appreciated.


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    #169
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    I'd say the NARGC would be the only ones that would have anything even close to what you're looking for FlyOver, but even then those cases sent to the District Courts might not be on it.


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    #170
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    FlyOver wrote: »
    Looking to find a list of cases that have gone before any court regarding firearms certificates, especially 9mm pistol. Any help is appreciated.

    The only cases I know of that are publicly available are:

    They won't all be relevant to your query, but they might be a good place to start.


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