SUV Scum

MuffinsDa

prospect wrote: »

So would the Vintage Roller suffer this cost?

Also, lets be fair here, alot of SUV's have equivalent Passanger/Driver and pedestrian NCAP scores. And the difference between a 3 star and 4 star car is probably a broken arm.
If you are hit by a 3 series BMW at 60mph, you are as good as dead.

No, it probably won't, because it would be taxed and insured under vintage category that stipulates a maximum mileage per year which is uaually quite low, and aside from that the cost of running a vintage roller on a daily basis would make it extremely prohibitve to do so unless you're completely bunkers. Again, compare like with like.

Yep, alot of SUVs have very good NCAP rating for occupants, especially more recent ones. But they cause a lot of damage to other cars in a collision. You could have the same (or even better) level of safety in a car without causing as much damaged (due to height offset, weight, etc). There's plenty of 5 star NCAP cars around, so safety argument is a bit invalid here.

BnA

grahambo wrote: »

Blather blather blather greeney wannabee twatology...
...
...They Drink petrol and cost a fortune to run on a day to day basis....
.....
...further reams of moronology...

Ahem.

A diesel X-Trail (for example) will do 39 mpgs

If you are going to ban this durty durty durty rain forest murderin' tank off the road... you might also consider banning the following....

Toyota Avensis (All their Petrol models)
Ford Mondeos (All their Petrol Models)
Peugeot 407's (All their Petrol Models)
All Petrol Volvos
....

At the risk of getting banned.

You are a Moron

MuffinsDa

BnA wrote: »

Moron

I think that one is just about acceptable, but you'll probably get a warning
But in fairness the "gas guzzling" argument is a silly one, with the advances in engineering a recent SUV could be far less polluting that a not-so-old car.
It's the odd-shape which I have problem with and not on a subjective/aesthetic ground, but on safety/practical grounds.

prospect

dodgyme wrote: »

not dropping kids to school!

I don't see why that matters? Are you less likely to have/cause an accident when you re not dropping kids to school?


Lets Settle this, the bone of contention seems to be how safe other road users are with SUV's on the road. Using EuroNCAPs website:

Large 4x4's - 17 Listed - 3 have 2 stars - None have 3 or more stars - 17.5% Safe - 0% Very Safe
Small 4x4's - 13 Listed - 6 have 2 stars - 3 have 3 stars - 46% Safe - 23% Very Safe
Executive Cars - 17 Listed - 1 has 2 stars - 1 has 3 stars - 1 has 4 stars - 6% Safe - 6% Very Safe - 6% Extremely safe
Large MPVs - 18 Listed - 3 have 2 stars - 17% are safe
Small MPVs - 30 Listed - 12 have 2 stars - 4 have 3 stars - 40% Safe - 13% Very Safe
Large Family Cars - 60 Listed - 9 have 2 stars - 15% are Safe
Small Family Cars - 53 Listed - 12 have 2 stars - 8 have 3 stars - 22.5% Safe - 15% Are Very Safe.

Hardly conclusive that 4x4s are dangerous.

In fact, the highest percentage of both 2 and 3 star cars are in the small 4x4 category.

MuffinsDa

good research prospect! now that's alot better than repeating the same thing over and over about JCBs, my compliments to you for that.

A couple of points:
1. I think when people say "dropping kids to school" they don't mean that literally, it's a euphemism for using the 4x4 offroad vehicles in a highly urbanised area on a proper road (unnecessary).
2. The statistics you gathered shows that most modern SUVs are not generally less safe for pedestrians that other cars, and that point is taken. However, one thing is not tested in EURONCAP is their effect on other cars. Because of height offset they cause more damage to other cars than a 2-car collision. They may or may not gain from that (i.e. they'll hit a *hard* engine instead of a *soft* and crumpled bumper - more damage to SUV + more damage to car), but the car usually suffers more while SUV doesn't gain more. This is the bit that I have problem with. Add that to the reduction in maneuverability and stability and the higher level of skills required for driving a large vehicle than a small one, and you'll hopefully see my point.

dodgyme

prospect wrote: »

I don't see why that matters?.

you dont see why it matters. Ok well I reserve the right to drop my kids to school in an artic truck then because I dont care about the traffic backed up behind me and I feel safer in it. You really typify the ignorance of the SUV driver. Let me put it simply - They are unnecessary to the point that people hate them. They are generally unfriendly to the environment, they are intimidating to drive near and obstruct other drivers esp their lights, they are dangerous to other raod user such as cyclists and pedestrians and arguments like some cars are worst to the environment or bad drivers cause accidents is pointless tripe showing me you know why we hate them but cant admit we're right.

unkel

Easy with the insults, folks. There's already been a banning. Please let it be the only one...

cornbb

MuffinsDa wrote: »

The statistics you gathered shows that most modern SUVs are not generally less safe for pedestrians that other cars, and that point is taken. However, one thing is not tested in EURONCAP is their effect on other cars. Because of height offset they cause more damage to other cars than a 2-car collision. They may or may not gain from that (i.e. they'll hit a *hard* engine instead of a *soft* and crumpled bumper - more damage to SUV + more damage to car), but the car usually suffers more while SUV doesn't gain more. This is the bit that I have problem with. Add that to the reduction in maneuverability and stability and the higher level of skills required for driving a large vehicle than a small one, and you'll hopefully see my point.

I'm surprised no-one has pointed out the dangers posed by bull-bars in this thread. Would any SUV drivers care to justify why these are often fitted?

blackbox

Every car, tractor, truck and SUV should be banned - except the type I have.:rolleyes:

Let's have a bit of tolerance here folks.

I personally don't like SUVs - so I won't buy one (especially a Porsche Cayenne). I'd even stick my neck out and say that they have more than their fair share of discourteous drivers, but surely not all of them can be scumbags.

Even though I may not like them, there are no sensible grounds for banning SUVs.

- - I'd agree with banning dangerous bullbars.

MuffinsDa

cornbb wrote: »

I'm surprised no-one has pointed out the dangers posed by bull-bars in this thread. Would any SUV drivers care to justify why these are often fitted?

Yep, they make it far worse, again completely unnecessarily and selfishly. Now they should be definitely banned!!

prospect

MuffinsDa wrote: »

Because of height offset they cause more damage to other cars than a 2-car collision. They may or may not gain from that (i.e. they'll hit a *hard* engine instead of a *soft* and crumpled bumber - more damage to SUV + more damage to car), but the car usually suffers more while SUV doesn't gain more. This is the bit that I have problem with. Add to the lack of maneuverability and stability and the higher level of skills required for driving a large vehicle than a small one, and you'll hopefully see my point.

It is a pity there is no multi vehicle collision stats. However, as you may have predicted, I completely disagree.

A modern SUV will come equiped with crumple zones. A much higher percentage of cars will not have these, as there is more old cars on the road than old SUV's (as SUVs are only a recent thing). I would rather be hit head on by a Kia Sportage than an old Merc something or other.

However, If i was in a nissan micra, being hit by an SUV would be worse than being hit by an Almera. However, being hit by an almera would be worse than being hit by another micra, so where do you draw the line?

MuffinsDa

blackbox wrote: »

Every car, tractor, truck and SUV should be banned - except the type I have.:rolleyes:

Let's have a bit of tolerance here folks.

I personally don't like SUVs - so I won't buy one (especially a Porsche Cayenne). I'd even stick my neck out and say that they have more than their fair share of discourteous drivers, but surely not all of them can be scumbags.

Even though I may not like them, there are no sensible grounds for banning SUVs.

here here.
(or is it hear hear?! I never found out)

astraboy

Typical Irish begrudgery and ignorance! I actually hate the term SUV, its an imported U.S. phrase along with "Gas Guzzler" that does not apply to most of the cars and jeeps on Irelands roads. First of all, a "Gas Guzzler" in my book is a 5.3L chevy Subarbun, not a 2.2L Hundai Santa fe or a 3.0L BMW x5. The last 2 are also diesel and emitt less Co2 then older cars with underpowered 1.6L engines.

People in Ireland pay far too much tax on our cars. If someone works hard and wishes to buy a nice car to cart their kids around in, or even just themselves, they pay through the nose for the "luxury". I wish the greenies would just F off, in fairness as one person said all we need to do is start building renewable energy power plants, even nuclear. The planet does not care if we reduce CO2 from the transport network or power generation, the latter being one of the main producers of CO2.

It really disgusts me to see people giving out about "SUV's". Personally, I would perfer a 3 series over an X3 and a 5 series over an X5, but people have every right to enjoy their money their way. They may need to tow a boat, or a trailer or a horsebox or live up in the arse of nowhere where ground clearance and 4 wheel drive are very handy. So get off the high horses lads, unless ye all get to work in cars running off the grass in your lawn and you make all your own electricity from your own private wind farm you too are a polluter. A person owning a nice car is just your venting point, because maybe you can't afford it, because you can't deal with driving a 12 year old piece of **** churning out more CO2 then a land rover defender, because you don't like people rubbing your face in their affluence, or your jealous and completely ignorant of the facts surrounding 4x4's and their environmental impact and believe a prius is the most environmentally friendly thing in the world.

Greenies, Get a life.

To everyone driving an SUV, drive well and I have no problem with you. Fair play and don't let the tree huggers force guilt on you enjoying your hard earned $$$$.

prospect

dodgyme wrote: »

You really typify the ignorance of the SUV driver.

How so?

dodgyme wrote: »

They are unnecessary to the point that people hate them.

correction, some people hate them.

dodgyme wrote: »

They are generally unfriendly to the environment,.

No more so than any large family car, MPV or executive car.

dodgyme wrote: »

they are intimidating to drive near .

That issue would be with your driving ability/conifidence.

dodgyme wrote: »

and obstruct other drivers esp their lights,.

Simply a result of the light angle being set wrong, same applies to many cars, and all those who insist driving with their fog lights on.

dodgyme wrote: »

they are dangerous to other raod user such as cyclists and pedestrians .

No more so than any other car being driven in the same dangerous manner.

dodgyme wrote: »

and arguments like some cars are worst to the environment or bad drivers cause accidents is pointless tripe showing me you know why we hate them but cant admit we're right.

So basically, you will not consider anything that proves you wrong. Well, i think even people on your side of the discussion will be disappointed with that comment.

cornbb

astraboy wrote: »

Typical Irish begrudgery and ignorance!

Why don't you click back a few pages and see where the begrudgery/jealousy argument falls apart.

To everyone driving an SUV, drive well and I have no problem with you. Fair play and don't let the tree huggers force guilt on you enjoying your hard earned $$$$.

If you'd read the thread you'd know people qualms aren't about Co2 emissions, or people enjoying their cash, its the "f*ck everyone else" attitude that you've just described that so often comes with being an SUV driver.

Potential-Monke

astraboy wrote: »

Typical Irish begrudgery and ignorance! I actually hate the term SUV, its an imported U.S. phrase along with "Gas Guzzler" that does not apply to most of the cars and jeeps on Irelands roads. First of all, a "Gas Guzzler" in my book is a 5.3L chevy Subarbun, not a 2.2L Hundai Santa fe or a 3.0L BMW x5. The last 2 are also diesel and emitt less Co2 then older cars with underpowered 1.6L engines.

People in Ireland pay far too much tax on our cars. If someone works hard and wishes to buy a nice car to cart their kids around in, or even just themselves, they pay through the nose for the "luxury". I wish the greenies would just F off, in fairness as one person said all we need to do is start building renewable energy power plants, even nuclear. The planet does not care if we reduce CO2 from the transport network or power generation, the latter being one of the main producers of CO2.

It really disgusts me to see people giving out about "SUV's". Personally, I would perfer a 3 series over an X3 and a 5 series over an X5, but people have every right to enjoy their money their way. They may need to tow a boat, or a trailer or a horsebox or live up in the arse of nowhere where ground clearance and 4 wheel drive are very handy. So get off the high horses lads, unless ye all get to work in cars running off the grass in your lawn and you make all your own electricity from your own private wind farm you too are a polluter. A person owning a nice car is just your venting point, because maybe you can't afford it, because you can't deal with driving a 12 year old piece of **** churning out more CO2 then a land rover defender, because you don't like people rubbing your face in their affluence, or your jealous and completely ignorant of the facts surrounding 4x4's and their environmental impact and believe a prius is the most environmentally friendly thing in the world.

Greenies, Get a life.

To everyone driving an SUV, drive well and I have no problem with you. Fair play and don't let the tree huggers force guilt on you enjoying your hard earned $$$$.

A good few fair points, but what about those people who buy all these big jeeps but cannot drive them? Or even better, they cannot park them? How many times have you seen a jeep parked at an angle taking up half of the road lane? I've no problems with people buying jeeps, but they are not city friendly, and shouldn't be allowed into a city.

MuffinsDa

astraboy, did you bother reading any of the arguments posted?
your point about CO2 is correct, but that's what pretty much everyone here agrees with.
The point about jealousy is completely wrong as explained in the posts and accepted by others.
The point about horsebox/ground clearance is totally valid, and I'm sure you'll definitely need all that in the rough areas such as Lucan, Blackrock, Clontarf, Blanchardstown where you see so many SUVs driven by hard working people on the road...

So... get off your high horse! Nobody is being a greenie here, I for one have already admitted that my car pollutes more than alot of modern SUVs....

MuffinsDa

prospect wrote: »

It is a pity there is no multi vehicle collision stats. However, as you may have predicted, I completely disagree.

A modern SUV will come equiped with crumple zones. A much higher percentage of cars will not have these, as there is more old cars on the road than old SUV's (as SUVs are only a recent thing). I would rather be hit head on by a Kia Sportage than an old Merc something or other.

However, If i was in a nissan micra, being hit by an SUV would be worse than being hit by an Almera. However, being hit by an almera would be worse than being hit by another micra, so where do you draw the line?

Unlike what you may have predicted, I agree with your point here. Modern cars and SUVs are constantly improving and a modern SUV can be far less hazardous than say a 30 year old Merc.

but, the same argument applies here, again, YOU HAVE TO COMPARE LIKE WITH LIKE! If you really want to be fair you have to compare a modern SUV with a modern car. Otherwise I can do otherwise and say a modern micra is a lot safer (in all aspects) than a 20 year old Isuzu.

But hopefully with the advances in technology the gap will become narrower in not so far future...

prospect

I really worry about some peoples concern with what others drive.

I drive a small SUV. I mind my own business on the road and try to drive legally and safely all the time. I usually let one person out at a junction and I give my un-expired parking permit to the next person.

I don;t mind what others drive. I get annoyed be dangerous, uncorteous and bad driving. Also bad parking is a pet hate. But I don;t single out one sector of drivers, I blame the particular person responsible, be they male or female, black or white, young or old. I certainly do not blame their vehicle.

If I was to overtake illegally, or push my way across lanes of traffic, you can hardly blame the vehicle, it is only doing what tell it to do. And, you certainly cannot blame the next punter for driving a similar vehicle.

My guess is when I check back on this thread in the morning, someone will have gone overboard and the thread locked.

MTC, and I am going home, ciao.

Tabnabs

BnA wrote: »

Ahem.

A diesel X-Trail (for example) will do 39 mpgs

If you are going to ban this durty durty durty rain forest murderin' tank off the road... you might also consider banning the following....

Toyota Avensis (All their Petrol models)
Ford Mondeos (All their Petrol Models)
Peugeot 407's (All their Petrol Models)
All Petrol Volvos

More wild accusations being thrown around. Diesel X-trail 2.2 dCi 4x2 - 37.7 mpg

Volvo S40/V50 1.8l petrol - 39.2 mpg. Not so spectacular now eh? :rolleyes:

cancan

Good to see begrudery is alive and well.

If you're poor, get over it.

A mondeo takes up the same space as an suv, so whats the problem. It's just taller.

I'm not a fan myself, but this is nothing more than the have nots ganging up on the haves.
After this, next up - "Performance Car Scum"

"4 door scum"

"Not a diesel scum"
etc etc

cornbb

cancan wrote: »

Good to see begrudery is alive and well.

If you're poor, get over it.

:rolleyes:

Haven't bothered to read the thread, have we?

astraboy

Ok, in response, I spend little if any time in Dublin, my persepective is based on living in Cork city and West Cork, where most of the "SUV's" tow ivor williams trailers full of sand or horseboxes or tools or are used off road. I do see the middle upper class brigade in Cork using their jeeps to drive the kids around, and yes, SOME are terrible drivers, I would not let them in a micra if I had my way! But many are just regular drivers, who happen to drive a larger car. Lets put it into persepctive, a Hundai Santa Fe or Toyota Rav 4 is NOT that much bigger then an opel vectra, and the wheelbase bearly takes up any more space on the roads.

Yes, they have a higher body, and this can obstruct your view, but no more then a transit van. I read the full thread and several people obviously into their cars dislike SUV's, now I am not making the generalizations about boards posters on this forum but much of the animosity towards SUV drivers is because of peoples ignorance, their jealousy and the way its played by the media. A modern medium sized SUV is far safer for both occupants and those it hits then a 10 or 15 year old regular sized car, pedestrian safety was of no concern to car designers 15 years ago!

To be honest I reckon there a lot of bad drivers out there, and you notice it more if they drive a higher SUV. The same way you notice more a guy with a loud exhaust acting the maggot. But harsh generalizations about groups of drivers are pointless and damaging. As I said, people should drive what they wish once they are considerate to other road users and pay their share of tax(which jeep owners do!). Bad parking and driving would still happen if the driver was in a fiesta, so don't tar all owners with one brush.

On the other hand, balance needs to be maintained. Imagine the chaos if we all decided to drive hummers to work! For me its a case of live and let live. If someone cuts me up on the south link the get a beep of the horn no matter what they drive!

cancan

cornbb wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Haven't bothered to read the thread, have we?

Well spotted - this is thread number 342323 of "I hate SUV's"

I am not reading through 8 pages of repeated mindless nonsence to come to the same conslusion I already hold.

Rowley Birkin QC

My college course is heavily biased towards protecting the environment,I'm doing Spatial Planning and Env management. I'm constantly bombarded with propaganda and environmental rhetoric. Some of it I can take in and to be honest I'm all for sustainable development, not however at the cost of my choice of how I live my life, but the more I'm subjected to the stronger my resolve becomes to buy an "SUV" or an M5 or something similar as soon as I can afford it......simply to piss off the eco-mentalists and their ilk.

I know I'm going to get mauled for that view but its my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

cornbb

cancan wrote:

Well spotted - this is thread number 342323 of "I hate SUV's"

I am not reading through 8 pages of repeated mindless nonsence to come to the same conslusion I already hold.

For your benefit:

RobAMerc wrote: »

People would love to act like that towards drivers of expensive cars and they often do, but the difference is the green mob has given people an veil hide behind to SUV bash that doesn't make them look like the jealous little sh*ts they are.

cornbb wrote: »

So you think people are pissed off with SUVs because they can't afford to buy them? If I envy a car that is leagues out of my price range then I will lust after it and congratulate those who drive it, not slag the sh*t out of it. Your jealousy argument makes no sense.

unkel wrote: »

Ask yourself this question: which car does the average person like least / hate most:

1. €80k SUV
2. €120k saloon
3. €300k sports car

The answer is not 2. It's not even 3.

MuffinsDa wrote: »

There's a long list of cars I'm jealous of (their drivers): CLK and S Class Merc, 7 series BMWs, brand new lime green convertible Saabs (or any colour really), Audi A6 and A8s, Porsches, Maseratis, Bentleys, Chryslers, and many many more. But when I see them I admire them and don't hate them a bit. But I have never bean jealous of any SUV and never admired them. So the jealousy argument doesn't really hold...

So the jealousy/begrudgery argument doesn't hold. Would you care to back up your opinions cancan, would you prefer to keep refusing to read the thread and develop an informed opinion, or do we have to go through the whole thing with you again?

DonJose

dodgyme wrote: »

I hate SUVs and I think that people who drive them are scum. I would stop short of agreeing with the vandalism but i think SUV owners need to realise how much they are hated.

Such hate! What do you drive and how much do you earn?

dodgyme

prospect wrote: »

so where do you draw the line?

at SUV level

Rhiannon14

*steps out from far left* As a self-proclaimed greenie, I'm not going down the CO2 route, though I think you'd have to be mental to tank up one of those puppies in any European country. Can any SUV driver tell me how much a full tank would cost you?

To my point, the only defense I've seen here that isn't rooted in complete ignorance is the simple, "I just like them." It is the WHY of this that I haven't seen successfully defended. Have consumers become so casual that they'll pick up the first car that seems to suit them without considering its impact on others? Cars are weapons! I wouldn't even step out in front of a Mini Now the question is how can you buy a small truck without realising that it's going to give you an advantage over others? Even if you like the aesthetic of a car, more needs to be considered before walking away with a truck with bull bars on the grill and Yosemite Sam "BACK OFF" mudflaps.

cantdecide

craichoe wrote: »

Bad roads ?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA ... Mate, go to Europe and drive around, they are FAR worse ..

Drive through Antwerp and your teeth will have rattled out of your head.

I think your coming up with the argument that was around 10 years ago. Irish roads are better than alot of European countries roads, except we have less motorway.

I bet a suitable car is FAR more affordable in Antwerp, all things factored in.

We must have one of the most moderate climates in the world- hot winters, cold summers, not a huge amount of general rain and no monsoon conditions. We should have some of the best roads in the world, we have no public transport alternative and most of the road network is sub-standard.

We pay the tax (oh how we pay the tax) we should have roads suitable for the highly taxed national fleet of hybrid trabants our socialist goverment wants us to have.