Israel's military targeting policies

bobbyjoe

Destruction of Bedouin Villages
http://www.jfjfp.org/bedouin_villages.htm

ILA destroys Bedouin homes to make way for Jewish town
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/874814.html

ISRAEL: Dozens made homeless as police demolish Bedouin houses
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/15a8af77380d45bdb866477fbd1c2bf8.htm

purple'n'gold

moe_sizlak wrote: »

let me ask you , why in your opinion is the usa so unconditionally supportive of israel , i know the jewish vote is crucial in america but there are only 5 million jews in the usa , there are way more irish americans , is jewish america that much more important than irish america

Joseph Palmi: You know, we Italians have our families and the church, the Irish have the homeland, the Jews their tradition, the **** their music. What do you guys have?
Edward Wilson: We have the United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting.

That’s a quote from the recent film “The good shepherd”
I asked on this thread why people think that the Jews have so much clout in the USA.( By the way I am not anti Semitic, so lets establish that immediately.) influence, away and above what it should actually be. Here’s my opinion, they have this influence because the Americans allow them to have it. It suits the Americans to have the Middle East on the boil all the time. They have used Israel for this purpose since its foundation. The reason, pure and simple, oil. America uses Israel as its proxy and it gives them a reason to have a presence in the Middle East. They have made a few mistakes over the years of course, (as America does) allowing the non stop persecution of the Palestinians was bad policy, it probably led in no small way to 9/11. But the Americans just used that as an excuse to invade Iraq and further secure the oil supplies. It’s not working out very well at the moment. But they are still in Iraq and sitting on the oil.

I posted this on another thread some time ago.

edanto

Ah Israel. I'm anti-Israeli government policy. I'm against their genocidal tactics to destroy the Palestinian people and believe that the more people that talk about it, the better the chance of public pressure to stop it, like apartheid.

pop quiz - This is a photo from Al Bar, which side do you think is Palestine?
http://adbusters.org/the_magazine/67.php?id=190

Another interesting article by Chomsky in New Internationalist charts the hypocrisy of Israel. Specifically, they make 3 demands of the Palestinians.
(1) Recognition of Israel
(2) Renounciation of violence
(3) Accept past agreement, specifically the Road Map

(1) is just plain funny, since the Israelis won't give the same recognition to Palestine.
(2) is also laughable in the context of the proof of Israeli violence above and the tied US foreign aid that must be spent on military things.

(3) is interesting, in that Refusal to Accept the Road map is the stick that the US-Israel alliance use to beat the Palestinians. To quote from the Chomsky article,

"While Israel formally accepted the Road Map, it attached 14 reservations that completely eviscerate it. To take just the first, Israel demanded that for the process to commence and continue, the Palestinians must ensure full quiet, education for peace, cessation of incitement, dismantling of Hamas and other organizations, and other conditions. Even if they were to satisfy these virtually impossible demands, the Israeli Cabinet proclaimed that ‘the Roadmap will not state that Israel must cease violence and incitement against the Palestinians’. The other reservations continue in the same vein."

The Palestinians are completely overwhelmed in the international media, viciously misrepresented and put across as terrorists when they are only trying to survive against a state that views them as pests and is trying to exterminate them.

Solving that conflict, by the creation of a viable Palestinian state with sea access and arable land, is, IMHO, the key in reducing tensions in the middle east.

Morlar

sovtek wrote: »

I think he/she is one of those people I heard about ages ago. They are paid to go to message boards and rile people up about Israel and America. Something like that. Don't know if its true though and I can't seem to find anything about it on the interweb at the moment.

The only organised campaign along those lines is a strictly pro - israel campaign which came to attention during the most recent invasion of lebannon

'BBC History Magazine was forced to remove an online poll after it was targeted by a project aimed at influencing internet opinion in Israel's favour.
The "Give Israel Your United Support" (GIYUS) website hosts a downloadable desktop tool called Megaphone. The program alerts users to opinion polls and "talkback" features on news sites so they can respond with pro-Israel views. In turn, users can alert GIYUS operators to any opinion polls they think should be targeted.'

http://giyus.org/

They began with selecting fair haired idf spokespeople and have gone downhill from there. Typically below the belt israeli response imo.

moe_sizlak wrote: »

let me ask you , why in your opinion is the usa so unconditionally supportive of israel , i know the jewish vote is crucial in america but there are only 5 million jews in the usa , there are way more irish americans , is jewish american that much more important than irish america

I dont think its the jewish vote so much as jewish funding and lobbying & highly organised jewish-centric pressure groups whose power is vastly disproportionate to the actual numbers of jews in america.

This paper covers much of the chomsky /finkelstein ground on why this is the case and in my opinion is worth reading (original in pdf format) http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011

Theres also an edited version here :

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

Like former president carter both authors were savaged for daring to even raise some of those issues.

edanto

This is off topic, but I think everyone on the thread will be interested. I don't know what the policy position of the Irish government has always been, but I just saw this announcement a few minutes ago:

Minister Kitt expressed the Government’s strong support for the negotiations between President Mahmoud Abbas and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, and stated that “we want to see the establishment of a an independent and democratic Palestinian State, living in peace with Israel and its other neighbours”

http://www.irishaid.gov.ie/article.asp?article=1163

bonkey

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Eh its not actually. There is a massive difference between a govt. intentionally killing civilians and accidently killing civilians while targeting a legitimate target. It's not like the USAF go ''Hey theres a house full of innocent civilians lets blow it up'' which is essentially what you are saying.

I don't think either of you are being particularly accurate, to be honest.

It is not limited to cases of "oops we accidentally killed some civilians" nor a case of "hey look - some innocents. Lets go kill them".

There is a third category, which is generally considered to be "willful neglect".

Taking an extreme example...lets imagine that there was a valid high-up political or military target in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. That was who the nuke targetted. The civilians in such a theoretical situation weren't deliberately targetted, nor were they accidentally killed.

The same applies for dropping a half a ton of high explosive on an apartment building to take out a single target. To do so involves wilfully accepting that civilians will be killed through your actions, and accepting that the civilian cost is worth it to achieve your goal.

This latter point is key. Once you accept that a civilian cost is worth incurring to achieve your goal, does it really matter what the target really was? Where do we draw the line? How can we decide that killing X people "collaterally" is better or worse than killing Y people deliberately? What if Y is 2X? What if Y is 100X?

LOL dripping water on someones face is a bad thing when the resulting information can lead to the stopping of carbombs, terrorist attacks etc.

If you can explain why the Americans have prosecuted people who used this technique, I'm all ears. They prosecuted them for torture, incidentally.

Is it a case that the reason that you commit the action mitigates the action? Is it that when you do it to gain information you feel would be valuable, its fine, but when the enemy do it for whatever reason, its wrong?

celt2005

edanto wrote: »

Minister Kitt expressed the Government’s strong support for the negotiations between President Mahmoud Abbas and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, and stated that “we want to see the establishment of a an independent and democratic Palestinian State, living in peace with Israel and its other neighbours”

http://www.irishaid.gov.ie/article.asp?article=1163

Any negotiations without HAMAS are futile. They received a 70 % mandate from the Palestinian electorate, and their exclusion makes a mockery of all negotiations aimed at a peaceful settlement

Manic Moran

As long as Hamas' position is the non-existance of Israel, any negotiations with them will also be futile.

The current strategy of a functionally independent Palestinian state in the West Bank is probably the best one in the current situation for Israel, if it works out. It can provide an example to the Gaza Strip that perhaps living in peace is a little better than a goal of destruction.

NTM

turgon

Anyone interested in the Israeli-Arab conflict should pop over to easons and get this months National Geographic to read the article on divided Bethlehem

Basically Israel is dividing Bethlehem in two even though the dividing wall is like 10 kilometers out side of their border. Its to "protect settlers". And why settlers are in land that not theirs??? They're "entitled to it" because of the old testament.

My favorite part of the story is when we here of the Palestinian farmer who has land on the Israeli side of the wall. He has to get up and queue at a border station at 2am everyday to get a permit to work his fields.

So the UN proposes to make this blatant land grabbing wall illegal. 10 euro for those who know who vetoed it...The united states. Surprise surprise.

Great success for Israel. Long live the butchers from Zion!

celt2005

Manic Moran wrote: »

As long as Hamas' position is the non-existance of Israel, any negotiations with them will also be futile.

You negotiate with your enemies, not your friends. Peace is unachievable without HAMAS , splitting the Palestinian people is not a long term solution.

Manic Moran

It probably depends on how much support Hamas has at the end of the road.

If you're going to quote the old saws, then don't forget the one about diplomacy being the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.

The intent here is quite obviously to sideline Hamas by showing 'Look, if you play nice with us, this is what you can get.' Or if not sideline Hamas, at least force enough groundswell of opinion that Hamas becomes a little more flexible on the existance of Israel.

NTM

Wacker

I'm not interested in getting into a debate about Israel's actions; I find much of the State's behaviour to be reprehensible. However, I also strongly endorse Israel's right to exist, as well as the fact that they are surrounded by people that want them wiped out.
I'd like to pool a few opinions as to what Israel should do based upon their situation. For instance, if they know of a guy who has orchestrated a rocket attack, and they know that this guy has hidden in a building that has civilians in it. What should they do in such an instance?
Also, do you think Israel should enter negotiatiations for a settlement that would result in a Palestinian state with Hamas, who have not recognized the right of Israel to exist? Do you think Israel should demand some moves before they sit down and talk?

Just curious.

Hogmeister B

Wacker wrote: »

...I also strongly endorse Israel's right to exist...

Why?

Manic Moran

Why not?

The Jewish claim to that part of the world isn't any weaker than anyone elses. Damned if I can't see anything wrong with multiple states co-existing. We allow it everywhere else in the world.

NTM

wes

Wacker wrote: »

I'm not interested in getting into a debate about Israel's actions; I find much of the State's behaviour to be reprehensible. However, I also strongly endorse Israel's right to exist, as well as the fact that they are surrounded by people that want them wiped out.

Israel has made peace with Egypt and Jordan. The Arab states have offered to recognize Israel and normalize relations as long as they return to the 67 borders. So how can you say they are surrounded by people trying to wipe them off the map? Remember in 1948 the Zionist movement had no issue ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from there home land and deny this even happened to this day. They also deny there right to return.

Also lets not forget Israel is doing there level best to destroy even the possibility of a Palestinian state. Even after Annapolis they are planning to build some new colonies. Eventually the West Bank will be split into reservations for the Paletinians like the Native Americans. So Israel is hardly being honest themselves in this process.

Wacker

Hogmeister B wrote: »

Why?

Because the Jews as people have had to endure thousands of years abuse, mistrust and oppression, culminating in a state-organized effort to kill them all. Weird as this might sound, I think the whole world owes them. I know the Palestinians got screwed over here, but remember there was a large number of Jews living in the region before the creation of Israel, and they were subject to racial attacks too.

Regardless though, Israel is not going to go away, and the Palestinians are not helping themselves at all if they won't grasp this fact, in my opinion.

Wacker

wes wrote: »

Also lets not forget Israel is doing there level best to destroy even the possibility of a Palestinian state.

I think that's harsh; Israel did offer 90% of the West Bank to the Palestinians for the creation of a state. Okay, they could have offered more, but it is unfair to say that they don't make conciliatory moves.

wes

Wacker wrote: »

I know the Palestinians got screwed over here, but remember there was a large number of Jews living in the region before the creation of Israel, and they were subject to racial attacks too.

The Zionist movement also attacked the Palestinians and then ethnically cleansed them. Also the Holocaust a crime committed by Nazi Germany and most persecution of Jews happened in Europe. So why should the Palestinians pay for this?

Wacker wrote: »

Regardless though, Israel is not going to go away, and the Palestinians are not helping themselves at all if they won't grasp this fact, in my opinion.

Israel has shown time and again they have no intention of ever making peace. They are already planning to build new colonies in the West Bank just days after Annapolis. So seems to me that the Palestinians are screwed either way.

The funny thing is that Fatah recognized Israels right to exist, but they then changed the goal posts, they now have to recognize it as a Jewish state. They basically want them to forget about there right to return and the fact 20% of people who live in Israel are Palestinians.

wes

Wacker wrote: »

I think that's harsh; Israel did offer 90% of the West Bank to the Palestinians for the creation of a state. Okay, they could have offered more, but it is unfair to say that they don't make conciliatory moves.

Not harsh at all, no worse then you presenting the old lie of all there neighbors are trying to wipe them out, despite the fact a few have made peace and others have offered it as well.

The 90% deal offered has been shown to be untrue time and again. The devil is as they say in the details, take a look at the small print.

Anyway lets say there was a 90% offer, What about the continued land grabs since then? I am talking about right now. Continued colony building as we speak, shows I am not being harsh at all, they are not offering 90% now (they never actually offered it to begin with).

Look at Israel actions right after Annapolis. Right after the talks they started to plan some more colonies in the West Bank. Doesn't seem like someone who wants peace now does it.

Why the continued attempts to force the Palestinians into smaller and smaller space? Right now colonies are being built, expanding and more being planned, the apartheid wall cuts the West Bank in half. if Israel wants to build a wall to protect themselves fair enough, but why does it cut the West Bank in half? Why is it not built on the Green line? Why steal more Palestinian land if all they want to do is protect themselves? Why build colonies in difficult to defend spots if all they want is security?

Bren_M.Records

Wacker wrote: »

Because the Jews as people have had to endure thousands of years abuse, mistrust and oppression, culminating in a state-organized effort to kill them all. Weird as this might sound, I think the whole world owes them. I know the Palestinians got screwed over here, but remember there was a large number of Jews living in the region before the creation of Israel, and they were subject to racial attacks too.

So basically your point is that two wrongs do infact make a right!

bobbyjoe

Wacker wrote: »

I think that's harsh; Israel did offer 90% of the West Bank to the Palestinians for the creation of a state. Okay, they could have offered more, but it is unfair to say that they don't make conciliatory moves.

If there was a wall built around your house and a checkpoint at the entrance which controlled everything and everybody entering or leaving would you accept that?
You own 90%.

Akrasia

Wacker wrote: »

Because the Jews as people have had to endure thousands of years abuse, mistrust and oppression, culminating in a state-organized effort to kill them all.

So they're justified in turning around and abusing mistrusting and oppressing the a different race of people?

Regardless though, Israel is not going to go away, and the Palestinians are not helping themselves at all if they won't grasp this fact, in my opinion.

If Israel wanted to live in peace, they would return to the agreed 1967 borders and stop trying to drive the palestinian people out of their homes. Israel is an apartheid state. They are currently systematically evicting thousands of Bedouin Israeli citizens to make way for exclusively jewish settlements.
that is indefensible.

edanto

bobbyjoe wrote: »

If there was a wall built around your house and a checkpoint at the entrance which controlled everything and everybody entering or leaving would you accept that?
You own 90%.

Just to make it more realistic lets add in the conditions that the guys that controlled the gate also controlled the water for farming, the flow of international money/food aid and permission to work in a deliberately arid state where to make any real money you have to leave the prison and serve the jews.

And I realise that 'serve the jews' is inflammatory and I don't mean it in an anti-Semetic way, it's just a reflection of the situation.

Most of the jews I've met have been great. But just because Jesus was a jew doesn't mean that we should treat them special and let them piss all over the palestinians. Jesus probably looked more like your average Palestinian today than your average Israeli.

We really ought to regulate what the Axis of Attack does in the middle east. More power to the UN and change the security council!!

AngryHippie

They are an aggressive expansionist state. They must be to maintain a supply of accomodation. For some reason, Jews all over the world seem to think that they have some sort of right to move into "settlements" on disputed confiscated Palestinian territory. If they move to within the original confines of their state, no beef (no pun) But what is happening at the moment is a joke, and the israelis will wake up some morning to find the arabs at the gates, not laughing. This is the source of their ever increasing paranoia. This paranoia is not completely unjustified either, Like their US friends, They have made an awful lot of enemies by supporting dictatorships to oppose islamic states. Right or wrong its pissing a lot of them off. Until this activity stops and there is a US president free from the puppet strings of the pentagon, there is no hope for peace in the middle east

Kev_ps3

Manic Moran wrote: »

Why not?

The Jewish claim to that part of the world isn't any weaker than anyone elses. Damned if I can't see anything wrong with multiple states co-existing. We allow it everywhere else in the world.

NTM

They have no claim to that land. The Palestinians are the rightful owners, like the Irish are the rightful owners of the 6 countys.

Playboy

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

They have no claim to that land. The Palestinians are the rightful owners, like the Irish are the rightful owners of the 6 countys.

There is a discussion on Zionism going on in the Humanities thread atm also. It was split from a thread in the Galway forum .. but as I cant post in the Humanities section (long story ) please join the discussion.

stevoman

When i was living in america all that every paper wrote was pro israeli propaganda and hatred of the country of palestine. when arafat died they put him on front page with devil horns saying the devil on earth had died. Really it just makes me sick and was one of the major contributing reasons for leaving America.

On one other note..... i Know what happened in concentration camps to the jews was a terrible terrible thing. But i challenge anyone to look up sources on the internent and see how many russian civilians died under the Nazis, you will find there is far far more, yet why dont we ever hear the west talk about this? Its good for Israel in the sense that in the Worlds only Superpower, the jews control the biggest piece of the media (which they really do from newspapers to hollywood).

Manic Moran

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

They have no claim to that land. The Palestinians are the rightful owners, like the Irish are the rightful owners of the 6 countys.

On what basis? Both originated in more or less the same general vicinity, no? The British did not materialise in Northern Ireland, they moved in there. Judaism pretty much started out where Israel is, did it not?

NTM

SpAcEd OuT

[Edit] Spaced Out will be allowed back in the Politics Forum, sometime around April. -Psi

Tellox

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

I feel Israel should be allowed to target anyone they want. If they kill 20 innocent palestinians but in the process kill a few insurgents so be it they should know better than to mess with Israel. Furthermore most Palestinians are raving lunatics who deserve whatever happens.

I really hope America invades Iran and shows them whos boss by the way.

also sovtek your a spastic.

I think Spaced Out is a pretty cool guy, Eh got himself banned by being a dip**** and doesn't afraid of anything.