A Discussion of the Rules

GuanYin

While we are in the mood for reform, we figured that it might be a good idea to open a discussion of the forum rules to the soccer users.

I'll preface this discussion by saying that this is a discussion of the rules of the forum. Its not a discussion on the mods or your personal like or dislike of any of us, it's not a forum to air past grieviences or direct abuse at the mods. If it goes that way, I'll ban any participating party, no warning, no questions asked (just so you know that even though we value your input, I'm still a nazi ).

So here goes, from my point of view, the most contentious issue here is the abuse rule.

My take is, that if someone posts outright abuse towards a user, player, supporter, team or set of fans, they get a straight ban. - length depends on the incident - if someone uses "scum" or whatnot, I usually go with a week, if someone goes a bit further and posts "Keane a c0cksucker" or some such, that's a longer ban in my book. Repeated abuse within a thread, will also increase your ban.

If someone uses context, and abuses someone, we go with discretion on whether to warn/ban or not. Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Delaney is an idiot for hiring Staunton" or "Keane was a knacker for what he did to Haaland" nor do I see anything wrong with criticising the actions of people in general.

Really the issue with these calls is both context and intent, if it doesn't look like the person intended to offend and was maybe being colloquial, I'd be less harsh than someone just looking for an excuse to grind their axe....

That said, there seems to be confusion about this among the general masses. So time to discuss.

Secondly, something I haven't been enforcing, is the requirement of banned parties to reapply through access requests. I had planned to revert to this procedure.

Otherwise, the charter is here and feel free to discuss it openly.

I should point out, that at this time the process of Soccer Access Requests in general (with the exception of for banned users), is not up for discussion, seeing as you are all inside soccer anyway.

leninbenjamin

abuse is abuse, regardless of context.

GuanYin

leninbenjamin wrote: »

abuse is abuse, regardless of context.

What about intent?

Eirebear

TBH i reckon things is ok the way they are really....
I shall now duck for cover

PHB

Does that mean leninbenjamin, that if say Roy Keane's tackle happend today, and somebody said,
'Roy Keane is a scumbag because of that tackle'
you think he should be banned? Seems kinda harsh wouldn't you say.

Unearthly

I think a warning would be better for abusing a footballer/club. In the heat of things someone can forget they aren't in the pub then are banned for a week.

leninbenjamin

PHB wrote: »

Does that mean leninbenjamin, that if say Roy Keane's tackle happend today, and somebody said,
'Roy Keane is a scumbag because of that tackle'
you think he should be banned? Seems kinda harsh wouldn't you say.

it's still abuse. you tolerate it or you don't, this notion of context is arbitrary and illogical to my mind. he's still being called a scumbag.

GuanYin

leninbenjamin wrote: »

it's still abuse. you tolerate it or you don't, this notion of context is arbitrary and illogical to my mind. he's still being called a scumbag.

There is a difference between equating someones actions to that of a scumbag, or equating them in the instance of that action to a scumbag, and just plain calling someone a scumbag.

ie.
That post makes you seem an idiot.
That was an idiotic thing to post.
That post was idiotic.
You are an idiot.

Those 4 comments are not equal.

Tusky

psi wrote: »

There is a difference between equating someones actions to that of a scumbag, or equating them in the instance of that action to a scumbag, and just plain calling someone a scumbag.

ie.
That post makes you seem an idiot.
That was an idiotic thing to post.
That post was idiotic.
You are an idiot.

Those 4 comments are not equal.

So as is, its ok to say 'your point of view is idiotic' or something along those lines ?

PiE

Oh man.

Rikand

psi wrote:

"Keane was a knacker for what he did to Haaland"

Knackers go through their lives tryin' to do their best and people like you keep putting them down by abusing them, calling them derogatory names and including someone like Roy Keane in their midsts! :rolleyes:

You should be ashamed of yourself!

_blank_

The only problem, as I see it, is that some people are far, far too sensitive about their club and it's players. (me included, it has to be said, when it comes to eL. I've tried to curb that in recent times, after the last ban-fest when people got sand in their nether regions)

Far too many times we see "banter" like this.

Poster X : I think PLAYER Z is a scumbag for that tackle on PLAYER Q.

Poster Y : You are an idiot.

Bam, Poster Y is banned.

OR

Poster Y : I think "Manager" is a fool for rotating his squad too much, they'll never win anything with that mindset. Here are the reasons; a, b, c

Poster X : STFU Troll <report post>, cry to mods wah wah wah

Now, too many people are called trolls for expressing a genuinely held opinion, especially within the supposed "holy ground" of the various Club Threads. FFS lads, if you want to have a "other team free" zone, then go to a team specific forum, there are thousands of them on the internet. Shock horror, Boards.ie isn't the only Message Board. You post in your team thread, you take the opinions of other fans too. This is an open forum, for fans of all clubs (once access is granted of course). If you don't want to see comments from fans of other clubs, then use the ignore feature, or go to another website. If you can't take criticism of your club, then you are a child. Simple.

OMG, someone thinks my club isn't the bestest evar!!!!!elevenone!11!11!! hE'S A TROLL WAH WAH WAH.

Anyone who posts, or thinks, like this is an idiot, imo.

Take the criticism, argue back, but don't get banned in the process. It's that easy.

See, I'm fairly argumentative myself, but I've never been banned from this forum because I don't engage in abuse of people here, or sports players/managers.

Give your opinion, back it up with facts, or expect to be called on it.

A troll is a person who posts a controversial opinion, then sits back and watches the trainwreck, reporting posts left right and centre and getting others banned.

IMO, if a person posts something and fails to give reasons within, say, a day of causing the trouble, they themselves should be banned. They are the idiot, not the people responding, and they deserve to be called on it.

Another thing though. People genuinely love their clubs, an will respond in an emotional manner if they are baited. This is where the mods come in. If, in their opinion, a poster is posting just to stir trouble, then that person should be banned. BUT, there is a thing called banter.

Say a goal is scored in the Liverpool United match at the weekend, in somewhat dubious circumstances. If a poster from the team that scored comes and posts "Ah, it was a country mile over the line", even if it clearly wasn't, this is banter, this is NOT trolling. We've all done it in the pub and don't get banned from the pub.

Banter shouldn't be a bannable offence.

Take a look at any eL thread, discussing recent games, transfer rumours etc, there is good banter in there. We slag each other, the clubs and players off without anyone getting the back up.

astrofool

Some people just wind themselves up too easily, so when a certain match or result comes up and goes against them, are likely to implode and take a few people with them.

I'd probably warn those people at an early stage to curb things (call it profiling if you must ).

PHB

Personally,
I'd be in favour of the following,

1 week ban for anybody who says one of the following (or along a similar lines):
- OMG, stop posting in my teams thread. I'm gona post in your teams thread, see how you like it
- I've reported that post

Zaph

PHB wrote: »

1 week ban for anybody who says one of the following (or along a similar lines):
- OMG, stop posting in my teams thread. I'm gona post in your teams thread, see how you like it

We don't really have that problem in the Leeds thread. Any Walsall fans around this weekend?

Xavi6

DesF wrote: »

Now, too many people are called trolls for expressing a genuinely held opinion, especially within the supposed "holy ground" of the various Club Threads. FFS lads, if you want to have a "other team free" zone, then go to a team specific forum, there are thousands of them on the internet. Shock horror, Boards.ie isn't the only Message Board. You post in your team thread, you take the opinions of other fans too. This is an open forum, for fans of all clubs (once access is granted of course). If you don't want to see comments from fans of other clubs, then use the ignore feature, or go to another website. If you can't take criticism of your club, then you are a child. Simple.

OMG, someone thinks my club isn't the bestest evar!!!!!elevenone!11!11!! hE'S A TROLL WAH WAH WAH.

Anyone who posts, or thinks, like this is an idiot, imo.

Take the criticism, argue back, but don't get banned in the process. It's that easy.

See, I'm fairly argumentative myself, but I've never been banned from this forum because I don't engage in abuse of people here, or sports players/managers.

Give your opinion, back it up with facts, or expect to be called on it.

A troll is a person who posts a controversial opinion, then sits back and watches the trainwreck, reporting posts left right and centre and getting others banned.

Agree with this totally. People are accused of being a troll for merely haveing a conflicting opinion and it p1sses me off no end, whether I'm the accused or it's someone else in a thread I'm posting on. Too many people have blinkers on and only see their own opinion thus firing out the troll accusations.

It's akin to players asking the ref for someone to be booked. They should get a booking (or in this case a ban/warning) themselves.

Dont be at yourself

Is there any chance of a soccer thunderdrome or a soccer hugs&kisses forum?

Almost literally every single discussion is reduced to petty squabbling and name calling, and it would be great to have a place to have mature, well-reasoned and well-argued debate.

I know there are greviances about splitting the forum, but I'm sure I'm not alone in being fed up with all the childish in-fighting that seems to ruin every thread.

d22ontour

Xavi6 wrote: »

Agree with this totally. People are accused of being a troll for merely haveing a conflicting opinion and it p1sses me off no end, whether I'm the accused or it's someone else in a thread I'm posting on. Too many people have blinkers on and only see their own opinion thus firing out the troll accusations.

It's akin to players asking the ref for someone to be booked. They should get a booking (or in this case a ban/warning) themselves.

I have gotten that type of reply in the pool thread many times , oh you don't think we play sexy football , yore a troll.I am sure pool fans have gotten the same vice versa or maybe their opinions are not scrutinised as much.Maybe a pool forum would be the best for all 'considering they want one' with only one condition.Any pool fan who joins their forum is banned from posting in the soccer forum.

Unearthly

Troll word should be abolished on here. I've never seen a forum so hooked on using it before.

"I think Drogba will outscore Torres"

"TROOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLL"

"That was a harsh red card"

"Jesus did you watch the match or just being a troll?"

death to the word Troll

Tusky

Unearthly wrote: »

Troll word should be abolished on here. I've never seen a forum so hooked on using it before.

"I think Drogba will outscore Torres"

"TROOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLL"

"That was a harsh red car"Jesus did you watch the match or just being a troll?"

death to the word Troll

I completely agree about posting in team forums. I like a good debate with other fans. Your own fans often see things with rose tinted glasses and its good to get some perspective...once its well thought out and you can back up your points.

It annoys me if fans of other clubs post in the Liverpool thread with posts like 'Gerrard is crap' or 'Liverpool are hopeless' etc without backing up the post. I post in the utd thread a lot but never post comments like that.

On the subject of trolls, there seems to be a lot of them on the board. I suppose its an easy place to do it. This guy for example...he seems to be repeatedly posting random comments, not replying to anything in particular or engaging in a discussion of any sort.

juanveron45 wrote: »

Do all ye scum fans know that on mersyside liverpool are the equivalent to rangers and everton to celtic?

Thats the kind of thing that I would like to see kept to a minimum on the board, even more so than abuse or name calling. Lets try to keep the discussion intelligent and well thought out.

mayordenis

PHB wrote: »

Personally,
I'd be in favour of the following,

1 week ban for anybody who says one of the following (or along a similar lines):
- OMG, stop posting in my teams thread. I'm gona post in your teams thread, see how you like it
- I've reported that post

i can't believe i agree, i was saying the same it might help curb the childishness of the forum, also the whole nobody having thick skin is ridiculous.

Dont be at yourself

Arguments and discussions between different sets of fans are to be encouraged, they should be the life-blood of the forum. However, half-measures like that aren't going to stop the real problem: that every single thread starts off with well-made points, before swiftly degenerating into childish nonsense.

How can we stop it? A return to absolute zero tolerance on all that petty rubbish? Difficult to maintain, difficult to carry out with consistancy and balance.

I'm telling you guys, a Soccer Hippytown board were people can only post if they treat the other posters like human beings is needed!

Mr Alan

i think, and have thought for quite a while that calling someone a troll, without sufficent reasoning, should be a banning, it is a joke how sensitive fans are of their club thread, mainly Liverpool and Utd.

Eg:

Every post i posted in the Utd thread for a period was met with a barrage of abuse from utd fans calling me a troll for no other reason other than i support Liverpool and didnt agree with their opinion. For this reason i have pretty much stopped posting in that thread,despite the fact that i enjoyed reasoned debates with Tauren, PHB and other decent manc fans. the fact is i was getting stressed out over it and it just aint worth the hassle anymore.

Likewise PHB suffers similar (although not near as harsh!) criticism in the Liverpool thread when he posts his opinions

Tusky

Mr Alan wrote: »

i think, and have thought for quite a while that calling someone a troll, without sufficent reasoning, should be a banning, it is a joke how sensitive fans are of their club thread, mainly Liverpool and Utd.

Eg:

Every post i posted in the Utd thread for a period was met with a barrage of abuse from utd fans calling me a troll for no other reason other than i support Liverpool and didnt agree with their opinion. For this reason i have pretty much stopped posting in that thread,despite the fact that i enjoyed reasoned debates with Tauren, PHB and other decent manc fans. the fact is i was getting stressed out over it and it just aint worth the hassle anymore.

Likewise PHB suffers similar (although not near as harsh!) criticism in the Liverpool thread when he posts his opinions

Troll.

Mr Alan

Reported

_blank_

PHB wrote: »

Personally,
I'd be in favour of the following,

1 week ban for anybody who says one of the following (or along a similar lines):
- OMG, stop posting in my teams thread. I'm gona post in your teams thread, see how you like it
- I've reported that post

You the mod, you make the rules tbh.

This is certainly needed. Too many people think that "their" team's thread is only for fans of their team, and some other fan is obviously on the wind up. Not the case people, I just happen to think that player X of your team had a crap game, Watchya gonna do? Report me for having a different opinion? Grow up.

Xavi6 wrote: »

It's akin to players asking the ref for someone to be booked. They should get a booking (or in this case a ban/warning) themselves.

Yep, make the mods "referees" and the posters "players". It's how the football sees things.

Three yellow cards, and you're gone for a while, unless it's a straight red, then you're just gone.

Unearthly wrote: »

death to the word Troll

Actually, yeah. The majority of people aren't trolls. I've seen some really well thought out posts and opinions called trolls beaue someone doesn't agree. It's riduculous, from a neutral pov, to see decent discussions descend into this crap.

Tusky wrote: »

I completely agree about posting in team forums. I like a good debate with other fans. Your own fans often see things with rose tinted glasses and its good to get some perspective...once its well thought out and you can back up your points.

100% agree. Sometimes it's nice to see an outside view. And it should be allowed. These people aren't trolls.

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

For this reason i have pretty much stopped posting in that thread

Actually Al, this is a prime example.

You always back up your posts with reasoned opinions. But because you area fairly vocal Liverpool fan, people can't see past that : "All scousers are tossers", FACT!

This annoys me no end "Oh he's only posting to annoy us" - get over yourselves, the guy has a well reasoned opinion, he obviously knows his football, and wants to post about it. Get a grip.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Likewise PHB suffers similar (although not near as harsh!) criticism in the Liverpool thread when he posts his opinions

His name is in BOLD, your's aint

d22ontour

DesF wrote: »

Actually Al, this is a prime example.

You always back up your posts with reasoned opinions.

At times yes he does have valid points.

DesF wrote: »

But because you area fairly vocal Liverpool fan, people can't see past that : "All scousers are tossers", FACT!

He actually posts a lot of rubbish too.

DesF wrote: »

This annoys me no end "Oh he's only posting to annoy us" - get over yourselves, the guy has a well reasoned opinion, he obviously knows his football, and wants to post about it. Get a grip.

He is one of the better posters but even so his own fellow fans have to remind him that he posts rubbish when he can't contain himself.

Savman

Personally I tend to avoid the petty playground arguments, but IMHO (and its just an observation, chillax lads) is that ManU and Liverpool fans are the worst. You lot never leave each other alone for some unfathomable reason, always going on about Torres V Tevez and Carragher V Rio etc etc. Sometimes it's interesting, mostly not cos fans have a hard time giving any credit or respect to their bitter rivals.

I don't like seeing anyone banned unless they're a total spanner. I think some folks overreact to the term "scum" - there is some valid uses for that word if it reflects someones opinion.

For instance, on AH we're allowed call people "scumbags" for antisocial behaviour, but say something bad about a footballer and people get all up in a tizzy and go whining to mods for Ban-a-mania :rolleyes:

IMHO, stop trying to babysit every potential heated topic and enough with the instant banning just because someone loses the rag or whatever. If someone's a regular offender, ban away, but most fans will very easily end up in a childish web fight after our team might've had a bad day or been totally hammered by a close rival, which can be humiliating.

Winning games gives you bragging rights, thats life ffs and if you cant take the slagging maybe Soccer aint for you

Merry Chrimbo etc.

Mr Alan

d22ontour wrote: »

At times yes he does have valid points

Why thank you

d22ontour wrote: »

He actually posts a lot of rubbish too.

You may think its rubbish but its my opinion and i'm entitled to it.
eg: People say Hargreaves is better than Mascherano, untrue imo, but i aint gonna report people for saying it.

d22ontour wrote: »

He is one of the better posters but even so his own fellow fans have to remind him that he posts rubbish when he can't contain himself.

Oh i have a lot of views that dont fall in line with wat a lot of Liverpool fans think on these boards...but sure if everyone agreed on everything it would be a very boring place altogether.

As long as debates are reasoned and thought out and not just meant to piss people off, there should be no restrictions of posting them, and people who try and accuse people of being trolls should be dealt with just as strictly as trolls themselves.

Another idea i've thought about that might work here too would be if there was like, a "bull**** argument thread", titled as such...., so when a row breaks out about....Fergies spending Vs rafas.....Gerrard in the middle.....Eircom League Vs PL......etc etc etc it can just move over into that thread so people wont be pissing and moaning about having to read it.

eg.

if we are talking about the Liverpool Utd game coming up sunday, and somehow we end up talking about who spent more money over the last few years....someone just says, "lets take this to the bull**** argument thread", and then it is continued in there, away from people who dont wanna hear it...so there wont be posts every five minutes from people saying, ohhh you guys are so childish, off topic etc etc etc.

Just an idea i had a while ago.

I enjoy debating with Des and the rest of the EL lads about wat makes a "proper" fan etc or telling PHB how Rafa is a legend and hasnt had near the financial backing that SAF has, BUT these are arguments that have been had a thousand times and people dont reall wanna hear them, especially in the general club threads. a place to discuss these things might be handy.

Xavi6

DesF wrote: »

Yep, make the mods "referees" and the posters "players". It's how the football sees things.

Three yellow cards, and you're gone for a while, unless it's a straight red, then you're just gone.

Welcome to Boards Mr. Poll

GuanYin

This is more like it

Ok lads, keep it coming, already I think we can see a few areas where we can improve. When this is done, the three man FAI panel four soccer mods will discuss and revise the charter, based on what we see here.

PHB

I'm telling you guys, a Soccer Hippytown board were people can only post if they treat the other posters like human beings is needed!

You bring this up lots. I was wondering, how would the rules differ to the current rules here?

copacetic

DesF wrote: »

You the mod, you make the rules tbh.

This is certainly needed. Too many people think that "their" team's thread is only for fans of their team, and some other fan is obviously on the wind up. Not the case people, I just happen to think that player X of your team had a crap game, Watchya gonna do? Report me for having a different opinion? Grow up.

I agree with a lot of what you say DesF but imo a lot of people post on other teams thread specifically to try to get reactions. Maybe they aren't purely trolls, but they are certainly 'troll like'.

For instance your example of 'I think player X of your team had a crap game' type posts, sure that is an opinion, but why do people feel the need to go into threads normally used for discussions among fans and spread these opinions around if not to try and provoke reaction?

For instance I think the EL is rubbish, but I don't feel the need to go into every EL thread giving my opinion..:p

Dont be at yourself

You bring this up lots. I was wondering, how would the rules differ to the current rules here?

A different, friendlier, atmosphere - which would hopefully be brought about simply by the posters themselves. I'd imagine that there are plenty around here who are sick of the petty squabbling, but who enjoy a decent, mature argument with rival fans. You yourself must be sick that seemingly every time you enter the Liverpool thread, it swiftly degenerates into the same old petty name-calling and so on.

As for rules? If it was a sub forum of the current board, I don't think many would actually be needed. The soccer forum itself would still exist to play host to all the malarky. There would need to be a zero tolerance on trolling/flaming/off-topic, but hopefully they wouldnt need to be enforced.

therecklessone

Savman wrote: »

For instance, on AH we're allowed call people "scumbags" for antisocial behaviour, but say something bad about a footballer and people get all up in a tizzy and go whining to mods for Ban-a-mania :rolleyes:

The problem as I see it on this forum is that people seem to see criticism of one of "their" players are an excuse for a little proxy war, and that rather than abusing each other (which will end in a ban) posters were slagging off players from each other's teams, the end result being a row and a closed thread/bands etc.

I don't mind the current approach, if you call someone a cnut you're banned but if you use emotive language but within context you get more leeway.

kaimera

Tusky wrote: »

So as is, its ok to say 'your point of view is idiotic' or something along those lines ?

Did I miss an answer to this by chance?

GuanYin

kaimera wrote: »

Did I miss an answer to this by chance?

I thought the question was rhetorical (seeing as the answer lies above)

The answer is yes, it would be ok, assuming the point of view is idiotic and you're not just trolling.

Sometimes we make judgement calls on that, but then, that's why we're paid the big bucks to mod....

MrJoeSoap

Re: the thread that was started today, why are streams acceptable but torrents of games/highlights not acceptable?

Vokes

Yeh, you would think the latter would be more acceptable

Also hows the MotD thing any different from posting youtube links or rapidshare d/l links for other soccer clips ?

_blank_

Streams are broadcast by actual Chinese/Arab TV stations, no? I know some of the streams are from ESPN and the like, probably a grey area, but if you wanted you could go to, say Radio Television China and watch from there, if you could understand the instructions. The streaming clients just do this for you, make it easier.

The copyright is made freely available, as it is being broadcast. There is nothing illegal about it afaik.

On torrents, well that's a whole different ballgame altogether, I think.

If the MOTD highlights were available for all to view on the BBC website, then torrents of them would be ok, but seeing as they are not, then the BBC are obviously sensitive about holding the copyright on them.

Rapidshare and YouTube links are different again. If the companies wished to retain the copyright on these clips, then they would have them removed from YouTube (as, indeed, we have seen in the past).

Put it this way. You can record all the music you want off the radio with a tape recorder, or I can listen to radio stations from all over the world with my PC, or I can watch Chinese or Arab TV Channels that choose to broadcast online, there is no issue here. It would be up to the Premier League/La Liga etc to negotiate new contracts with the Asian stations to stop them broadcasting on the internet. They obviously didn't foresee this being an issue. Until new contracts are done up, then streaming is open season, imo.

Torrents, on the other hand, are distributing a piece of data that is NOT otherwise freely available.

Unless someone can link to a Chinese or Arab highlights package that is available online?

Villain

Just because someone commits an act of violence on a soccer field doesn't mean they are a scumbag, thug, wanker etc.

IMO it is fair to say "IMO that was a disgraceful act of thuggery by PlayerA"
But it is not fair to say" IMO Player is a scumbag, that tackle was awful"

Soccer players profession is to win games, now they have to abide by the rules and laws of the game, but those rules and laws will be pushed to the very limit by players and managers under huge pressure to succeed and obviously some players go beyond those rules and laws on the pitch and if a referee is doing his job they will be punished for it. I don't think that means the person is a scumbag, he may have went too far on the pitch while earning his living but oustide of his profession he could be a very genuine honest person.

I think calling peoples actions names is fine but branding people as knackers, scumbags etc for actions on the field is wrong imo.

GuanYin

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Re: the thread that was started today, why are streams acceptable but torrents of games/highlights not acceptable?

Not sure on this, but as streams are broadcast by a provider, who has paid a licence fee, it was my understanding that it was the provider that was responsible for the distribution and copyright at that poit. That said, it is illegal to show these steams commercial (ie. a pub).

Torrents are copyrighted material that are not paid for or licenced.


As for whether or not a tackle makes someone a scumbag, again, I'm taking it asa colloquialism and not an actual branding of the person, but at least it is opinion on their actions and not a measured assessment of the person overall.

Villain

But PSI I could say "Ronaldo is a cheating scumbag with nuts for brains for that dive against Derby"

However I think the fact he was so close to getting player of the year and his scoring record etc shows he is far from having nuts for brains and I don't think it makes him a scumbag, I also think allowing comments like that are going to flame the fires between fans and not add anything productive to a discussion.

Its harsh I know but I have been banned in the past for a one off statment about John O'Shea's mistake during a game and while I thought it was harsh I can see that it offered nothing to the discussion and while it was an Ireland and most people were saying the same thing if that was a Pool V Utd game it could cause a lot of trolling.

IMO more active mods at peak times to stop people branding players as scumbags etc and taking away from the discussion is the way to go.

Spud83

Mr Alan wrote: »

i think, and have thought for quite a while that calling someone a troll, without sufficent reasoning, should be a banning, it is a joke how sensitive fans are of their club thread, mainly Liverpool and Utd.

Eg:

Every post i posted in the Utd thread for a period was met with a barrage of abuse from utd fans calling me a troll for no other reason other than i support Liverpool and didnt agree with their opinion. For this reason i have pretty much stopped posting in that thread,despite the fact that i enjoyed reasoned debates with Tauren, PHB and other decent manc fans. the fact is i was getting stressed out over it and it just aint worth the hassle anymore.

Likewise PHB suffers similar (although not near as harsh!) criticism in the Liverpool thread when he posts his opinions

I think I was around at that time, and the troll calling was really ridiculous. The Utd thread has actually become very boring as of late due to the fact it has become all Utds fans agreeing with each other. It has become a forum where news is posted with very little debate. Come back please.

As for the rules, I think any post mentioning a troll should be an automatic ban. If you think someone is a troll report it, but do not post "reported" or "troll" in the forum. If the MODs’ think it is a ridiculous report then the reporter (?) gets banned. Simple, it will mean people will not fill up forums with crap, and also people will be careful about what the actually report.

As for the insults I’m not a sensitive/PC person so these don’t bother me once there is some context behind them as has been said already.

_blank_

Villain wrote: »

IMO more active mods at peak times to stop people branding players as scumbags etc and taking away from the discussion is the way to go.

I'd agree with this.

"Name calling" for the sake of it will only get worse if there isn't a zero tolerance attitude taken by the mods.

We'll see an increase is accusations of bias and inconsistancy from people who are banned when a mod takes umbrage at their use of the word "Scumbag" - "wah wah wah, another poster used the word last week and nuthin was done, wah wah wah". Idiots don't understand the word "context", and the mods need to realise this, as do the users.

IMO, everyone should be able to spot a bannable post at twenty feet. There should be hard and fast rules as to what words are acceptable, and which are not.

Some words contain more emotion than others. Some words spark flamewars, some don't. Scum is a prime example of this, and should, imo, be removed form this forum permanently. As should the calling of trolls. Use the report post function, let those charged with the task deal with it.

Another thing, there is no such thing as an "irony radar". This is a textual forum, not verbal. Not everything we type is interpreted as we intend it to be. I'm sure people have been banned for posting "jokes", and not only from this forum (psi, I could point to at least one thread that you have been posting in recently where this happened to your very self, not everyone realises another posters "style", and it is easy to offend, even if offence is not the intention). but when a person is called on it, and the mods make a banning the defence of "I was only joking" never washes with mods, and rightly so imo. If you type something that could be seen as offensive, read it again before hitting that submit button. If it is ambiguous, add a smiley or re-edit to make it clearer.

cson

Personally, there are two ways you can set out the law regarding the soccer forum. The first is to be zero tolerance, any abuse whatsoever recieves a ban and like cases are treated alike. The second is to treat each case on its merits, I'm in favour of this myself. I have absolutely no problem with a well reasoned out argument against a particular player/club. I think this is psi's view also, that if you call someone a scumbag and give a sound reasoning for it i.e. Player X is scumbag, he tackled Z from behind and a couple of months ago he made no effort to play the ball when he broke Y's leg.

Necronomicon

I think the whole issue of context can lead to grey areas.

For example, if I had a particular dislike for John Terry, I could've just waited for sunday's game to grab my chance to hurl abuse at him, because he made a nasty tackle on Fabregas. Could I have said 'That Terry is a thug, what a nasty tackle.' Now surely some Chelsea fans would take exception to that. There aren't a lot of Chelsea fans on the forum, so maybe not the best example, but if it was a Liverpool/United/Arsenal player people probably would take exception to the term 'thug' no matter what the context.

If each case is open to interpretation, then surely there will be some inconsistencies, and that's not criticism of moderators, it's just inevitable. While zero tolerance may lead to some harsh bans, I'm not so sure it's worse than the whole context thing.

What about a 'yellow card/red card' type system? First offence leads to a yellow card (ie, a warning via pm) and second offence leads to red card (instant ban).

Villain

The question cson is what will calling Player x a scumbag offer to a discussion? I understand what you are saying, but modding a forum on a case by case basis requires a lot of very active mods who know the forum well and know posters styles.

GuanYin

Villain wrote: »

But PSI I could say "Ronaldo is a cheating scumbag with nuts for brains for that dive against Derby"

However I think the fact he was so close to getting player of the year and his scoring record etc shows he is far from having nuts for brains and I don't think it makes him a scumbag, I also think allowing comments like that are going to flame the fires between fans and not add anything productive to a discussion.

Its harsh I know but I have been banned in the past for a one off statment about John O'Shea's mistake during a game and while I thought it was harsh I can see that it offered nothing to the discussion and while it was an Ireland and most people were saying the same thing if that was a Pool V Utd game it could cause a lot of trolling.

IMO more active mods at peak times to stop people branding players as scumbags etc and taking away from the discussion is the way to go.

I think you're assuming that the mods here are mindless robots who can't see X from Y.

You could say the above and I'd probably warn or ban you for it.

My point is, the guidelines are clear. We enforce them based on intent. If I reckon you intended to insult, there is a fairly good chance you did. I could be wrong, but no system is perfect.

We have two options on the table at present. A restrictive no tolerance approach or a less restrictive guideline where you trust the mods to make judgement calls.

The funny thing about this, is that I see lots of people looking for ways around the rules we put in place rather than people just trying to post sensibly.

cson

In the game players who call for other players to be booked are booked themselves, imo this would be good idea to implement in the forum - A poster who calls for a ban should be banned themselves. Leave modding to the mods.