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Saul of Tarsus. The first heretic?
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Soul Winner wrote: »The versus of scripture you use to prove that below are taken from Luke. But wasn't Luke the only one who stayed with Paul to the end? And wasn't Luke a gentile??
I don't see how this is relevant to what Jesus said.Soul Winner wrote: »So from whence came this enlightenment of yours??
It's just common sense and science really, how could it be otherwise?Soul Winner wrote: »I could argue this with a Christian but there is no purchase with you as I really do not know where you’re coming form. I must admit you have me in riddles and that is not easy thing to do. Don’t gloat though I didn’t mean as a compliment.
I'm coming from the position of being a human on planet Earth surrounded by people who say they're 'Christians' not doing any works or even thinking they really need to because they've got faith. And I'm sat with brothers and sisters dying on me because of it basically, I guess is the bottom line. I'm seeing Christians with many good things and if they loved their neighbours as themselves then their neighbours would have many good things. However the neighbours are dying in the dirt.Soul Winner wrote: »It really doesn’t matter anymore. I thought I was arguing with a legalistic Christian. I think you should stick to what you know better and leave the doctrines and arguments within Christianity alone. You clearly haven’t a clue what you are talking about.
I don't know what a legalistic Christian even is. I think that maybe you should try harder to have an open mind about what 'within Christianity' may actually constitute and if you disagree with a person then say so 
Soul Winner wrote: »I never said what we have is a good as the originals. When did I say that? Re Human nature yes you are onto something there but I don’t believe that it transcends throughout the whole of the human race. There’s good and bad everywhere don’t ya think?
I do for certain but I'd say it was a bad hand that was put to the originals and there's other things missing as well I thinkSoul Winner wrote: »Well I’m glad we cleared up a few things in that last post exchange. You should be more forthcoming with you religious beliefs so people can understand what angle you are coming from. It doesn’t pay to be over ambiguous. Goodnight to you sir :rolleyes:
I don't se what my views have to do with the logic of the argument anyhow I wasn't being deliberately ambiguous0 -
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I agree. And if you read Romans Chapter 6 then you see Paul is in agreement with James. Grace is not an excuse to sin, as would be the case if it was possible to have faith without accompanying good works. Genuine faith will produce increased holiness and good works. The overall theology is consistent. Salvation is by faith alone, but a faith that does not produce good works is a false faith (or dead) and so cannot justify.
Looks like I'm gonna be up for a while yet
You're right it isn't a licence to sin. But we sin because we are sinners we are not sinners because we sin. We are born in it. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5. Paul boils all sin down to falling short of the glory of God and a miss is a good as mile. To sin wilfully there remains no more remission but you will sin in the sense that you will fall short of the glory of God everyday of your life which is due to your condition of sin that Paul says we will be sanctified from wholly over there when this garment of sinning flesh is ultimately laid down and the new man in Christ built up through faith in God rises to be with The Lord forever.
Paul calls trying not to sin with fleshly effort 'will worship:
"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using,) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." Col 2:20-23.
To be Holy means to be committed it has nothing to do with righteousness. The word in the Greek written phonetically is "Hagios" the same word translates "Saint" which is a committed one. You start out as a saint by giving yourself over to God as a living sacrifice that Paul calls our 'reasonable service'.
When it comes to being accepted in God's presence it is ALL based on the work of Christ and absolutely nothing else. Sure its better if nobody sins but they are gonna sin, the good news is that it is all covered in Christ. The past present and future sins of everybody are paid for in Christ. It's the spiritual sins that are the hardest ones to forgive. Thinking you're ok for instance because you haven't smoked in years or that you have committed adultery in months or whatever it is you might pride yourself on. These things might be wrong things to do (and indeed they are and need to be confessed and turn from) but what sickens God more is when you think because you don't do them you are righteous. It is an insult to the work wrought in Christ Alone. We are to thank Him everyday for His Grace, that He has postponed the wrath that we rightly deserve because of our sins and to praise His name forever.
Will leave you with a little story from the Gospel of Luke that puts what i've just said into perspective:
"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 18:10-140 -
SubjectSean wrote: »I'm coming from the position of being a human on planet Earth surrounded by people who say they're 'Christians' not doing any works or even thinking they really need to because they've got faith. I'm seeing Christians with many good things and if they loved their neighbours as themselves then their neighbours would have many good things. However the neighbours are dying in the dirt.
I don't agree with alot of your theology, but this point rings absolutely true. As a professing christian, i would be one of the guilty party you speak of above:( Indeed, there are many professing Christians, but few acting ones.And I'm sat with brothers and sisters dying on me because of it basically, I guess is the bottom line. Are you referring to the peoples of the world as your bretheren, or was that a literal statement? 0 -
Are you referring to the peoples of the world as your bretheren, or was that a literal statement?
It's the peoples of the world but mostly my Swazi brothers and sisters, bakaNgwane, and the ones I know will be gone when I get back that side. It makes me sad, I wish that God could send an army of rich people to help.0 -
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But that is what the book of James is saying. Maybe you are taking into account other sources about James, but reading the book of James, he is saying that Faith is the key. He's elaborating though when he says its more than just 'I believe'. Its like he's telling us how to see Faith in action, he's not contradicting. As I said, Jesus himself told us to look out for the fruitage of people. Its how we distinguish the charlatans from the true. He never says that faith with works save. He says that Faith should manifest itself in your life, and not just be a belief, for the demons believe but are wicked.
The book of James does say by faith one is saved, but he tells us of the fruitage of faith. It is a valuable lesson, as I said, to filter the charlatans from the true.
You just don't seem to be getting it. You are putting faith and works at loggerheads, when they are not mutually exclusive. Faith and action go hand in hand. True faith manifests itself. If it doesn't, or the professing christian is bearing bad fruit, then a question must be asked of the persons faith. Yes we will sin and slip up, but a professing Christian who constantly commits adultery is someone who one must beware of. He is not bearing good fruit. David Koresh could recite scripture after scripture, he came accross as a faithful man, but his fruitage showed him up as a charlatan. Fruitage is our insight, not our saving grace, but our insight.
So you are basing your arguement on other things. I think what both myself and PDN, are talking about is 'THE BOOK' of James. I see nothing in 'THE BOOK' of James to indicate he opposes Paul, or the justification by faith message.
Could you show me from the book of James, where he says that Faith is 'not' the key?
Ok then let us stick to 'THE BOOK' as you put it of James. I agree that belief is not enough. I can say the same to you today, that believe is still not enough, but James wasn’t saying that though. He was saying that faith is not enough. Faith is different to belief. It is a noun in the English but it is an action word in the Greek. Pistis is the noun form and Pisteo is the verb. Pisteo is action based upon belief and sustained by confidence in the faithfulness of the object being “Pisteo’d” in or faithed in. We don’t have the verb form of faith (faithed) in the English which is a real tragedy. It didn’t transition from Greek over into Englsih properly. Satan won a great battle here. When one thinks of faith in the English one assumes that it means just belief but it doesn’t. It means acting on a belief and continuing that action with confidence. I pointed this out in another post which I will quote here to save time re-typing:
“Faith (or Pistis the noun in the Greek or the verb which is Pisteo) is an action word. An action based upon belief and sustained by confidence in the object of the action. By that definition everyone has Faith because everyone acts upon beliefs and sustains those actions every day. It is not restricted to Religious connotations. You act in Faith when you simply walk. You assume your feet will stay on the ground because experience has thought you that gravity (invisible though it may be) will keep them there and you act accordingly. It’s something you don't even think about most of the time. But what’s the difference between this kind of faith action and saving Faith which is Faith in God? Well Faith in God’s Word is acting on a promise made by God in His Word and continuing that action until that which was promised becomes a fact. And that fact could materialise on this side of eternity or on the other side but the important thing to remember is that you are acting on His promise(s).
An example of this could be when someone is very sick. The promise in God's Word that someone who is sick could claim is: "I am the Lord that heals you". But how would someone go about actually claiming that promise? Well God's Word also tells us that "we are not to descend in the debts and bring Him up or to ascend into the heavens and bring Him down. The word is already near you, speak it forth for with the heart man believes and with the mouth proclamation is made unto salvation." Is there a limit on what promises we can claim? No, it also says that “all the promise of God in Him are yes and Amen” in other words you can claim all of the promises in God’s Word based on this verse of scripture. This means a sick person can have salvation by simply believing in his heart that God promises to heal him and then actually speak the promise with his mouth unto God who is faithful to his promises. Does the sick person need anyone else to hear this? Not at all, only God. You don’t need to shout it from the roof tops (although you could if you wanted to) but as Jesus says you can go into your closet and speak to God in private. This act of faith the scripture says puts you in Christ and Christ in you (to use legal terminology). In other words God does not see you as you anymore whether you get healed or not. Once you act in Faith in a promise of God you are seen as though you are Christ. “How?” You may say. “I don't deserve to be seen as though I am Christ.” You're right but Christ paid the price for God to be able to do this. When Christ bore the sins of the world God looked at Him in a way He did not deserve so that once this act of sacrifice was completed He could then turn to us on a new premise which is Faith in God’s promises as apposed to the old premise which was the way of the Law by which standard all have sinned and are hopeless.” (I don't believe it I'm plagiarising myself
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And sometimes even the word Pisteo is translated in our English Bible as just belief or believed.
Faith and Works are ALREADY at loggerheads when it comes to salvation and I didn’t put them there. James just didn’t know what faith actually was or if he did he didn’t think it was enough for you to be saved. He’s not alone. Most of Christianity today is the same and most religions in fact. They have one thing in common. You need works produced by fleshly effort. Checklist religion. Yes I did that , I did that, I did this other thing, I didn’t do that, and didn’t do that and didn’t do this and on it goes ad nauseoum. Where’s the faith??? But let us stick with just Christianity. They just do not believe that faith alone can save you. Oh they’ll tell you that you start out with faith but then you must add works. When you add works you nullify faith. “This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” Galatians 3:2-3. Paul says if you come under the law one tiny fraction then you are indebted to do all of it. Why do you think the Ark of the Covenant had a solid gold Covering on it? That Covering was a type of the work wrought only in Christ. It is between us and the unbroken 'second set' of tablets of the Law (the first set of tablets were broken by the hand of Moses when he came down from the mountain) which were placed inside the Ark, which itself was also a type of Christ, because only in Christ is the Law kept 'un-broken'. To add works to your faith is like removing the Covering of the Ark and exposing yourself to the Perfect Standard. You have removed the covering of Christ when you stop acting in faith and rely on your works. “But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the LORD had dealt them,” I Samuel 6:19 “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” Galatians 5:2. It is all faith, it starts with faith, continues with faith and ends with faith.
Ok, so moving onto the differences between 'THE BOOK' of James and Paul:
James
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.!” James 2:14-26
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone” and "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"
It reads pretty much like James does not believe in Faith alone by this wouldn’t you agree?
“..shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
Paul says “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ” Galatians 1:6-7. The word “pervert” in the Greek means to put that which is in front behind and that which is behind in front. You don’t show faith by works, it is the other way around you show works by faith. Good deeds are but the natural outgrowth of the indwelling Holy Spirit which is literally God being Himself through you. You can only get His Spirit in you by faith alone and not by works or even by faith mixed with works. I really believe this message was lost on James because just by reading his epistle he seems completely blind to it.
More James:
“Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?”
Is not James saying here that Rahab’s works saved her? He does not say her faith saved her. Do you know what her works were? She lied to the soldiers that came looking for the spies from Joshua and sent them out another way after she had hid them in the hay. That is lying. That is not what saved her.
The writer to the Hebrews (whom I believe was Paul) says that she was saved by Faith.
“By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.” Hebrews 11:31
She welcomed the spies. She knew who was going to win the victory in Jericho and chose the right side. She believed the word of God that the walls of the city would be destroyed and acted on it. She obeyed the spies and (acting on belief in God's Word) hung the scarlet thread from her window and was thus saved she and all her family. But James says her lying saved her??? Read it again: “Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?”
No mention of her faith there at all.
More Paul
“For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:17
First to last, start to finish, and no mention of works anywhere.
“Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." Galatians 3:11
“For in just a very little while, “He who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.” Hebrews 10:37-39
Each of these verses is quoting a verse from the Old Testament:
“For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay. "See, he is puffed up; his desires are not upright— but the righteous will live by his faith” Habakkuk 2:3-4
More contradiction between James and Paul
James 4:17
"Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins."
But Paul points out in Romans 7 that this is wrong. He says it is no longer he who sins but sin in him.
Romans 7:14-20
“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
When coming to the close of his epistle James gives some advice but contrast that advice with the advice given in the closing verses of Ephesians:
James 5:12
“But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation”
Ephesians 6:16
“Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.”
Shall we continue?0 -
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Soul Winner wrote: »Ok then let us stick to 'THE BOOK' as you put it of James. I agree that belief is not enough. I can say the same to you today, that believe is still not enough, but James wasn’t saying that though. He was saying that faith is not enough. Faith is different to belief. It is a noun in the English but it is an action word in the Greek. Pistis is the noun form and Pisteo is the verb. Pisteo is action based upon belief and sustained by confidence in the faithfulness of the object being “Pisteo’d” in or faithed in. We don’t have the verb form of faith (faithed) in the English which is a real tragedy. It didn’t transition from Greek over into Englsih properly. Satan won a great battle here. When one thinks of faith in the English one assumes that it means just belief but it doesn’t. It means acting on a belief and continuing that action with confidence. I pointed this out in another post which I will quote here to save time re-typing:
“Faith (or Pistis the noun in the Greek or the verb which is Pisteo) is an action word. An action based upon belief and sustained by confidence in the object of the action. By that definition everyone has Faith because everyone acts upon beliefs and sustains those actions every day. It is not restricted to Religious connotations. You act in Faith when you simply walk. You assume your feet will stay on the ground because experience has thought you that gravity (invisible though it may be) will keep them there and you act accordingly. It’s something you don't even think about most of the time. But what’s the difference between this kind of faith action and saving Faith which is Faith in God? Well Faith in God’s Word is acting on a promise made by God in His Word and continuing that action until that which was promised becomes a fact. And that fact could materialise on this side of eternity or on the other side but the important thing to remember is that you are acting on His promise(s).
An example of this could be when someone is very sick. The promise in God's Word that someone who is sick could claim is: "I am the Lord that heals you". But how would someone go about actually claiming that promise? Well God's Word also tells us that "we are not to descend in the debts and bring Him up or to ascend into the heavens and bring Him down. The word is already near you, speak it forth for with the heart man believes and with the mouth proclamation is made unto salvation." Is there a limit on what promises we can claim? No, it also says that “all the promise of God in Him are yes and Amen” in other words you can claim all of the promises in God’s Word based on this verse of scripture. This means a sick person can have salvation by simply believing in his heart that God promises to heal him and then actually speak the promise with his mouth unto God who is faithful to his promises. Does the sick person need anyone else to hear this? Not at all, only God. You don’t need to shout it from the roof tops (although you could if you wanted to) but as Jesus says you can go into your closet and speak to God in private. This act of faith the scripture says puts you in Christ and Christ in you (to use legal terminology). In other words God does not see you as you anymore whether you get healed or not. Once you act in Faith in a promise of God you are seen as though you are Christ. “How?” You may say. “I don't deserve to be seen as though I am Christ.” You're right but Christ paid the price for God to be able to do this. When Christ bore the sins of the world God looked at Him in a way He did not deserve so that once this act of sacrifice was completed He could then turn to us on a new premise which is Faith in God’s promises as apposed to the old premise which was the way of the Law by which standard all have sinned and are hopeless.” (I don't believe it I'm plagiarising myself)
And sometimes even the word Pisteo is translated in our English Bible as just belief or believed.
Faith and Works are ALREADY at loggerheads when it comes to salvation and I didn’t put them there. James just didn’t know what faith actually was or if he did he didn’t think it was enough for you to be saved. He’s not alone. Most of Christianity today is the same and most religions in fact. They have one thing in common. You need works produced by fleshly effort. Checklist religion. Yes I did that , I did that, I did this other thing, I didn’t do that, and didn’t do that and didn’t do this and on it goes ad nauseoum. Where’s the faith??? But let us stick with just Christianity. They just do not believe that faith alone can save you. Oh they’ll tell you that you start out with faith but then you must add works. When you add works you nullify faith. “This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” Galatians 3:2-3. Paul says if you come under the law one tiny fraction then you are indebted to do all of it. Why do you think the Ark of the Covenant had a solid gold Covering on it? That Covering was a type of the work wrought only in Christ. It is between us and the unbroken 'second set' of tablets of the Law (the first set of tablets were broken by the hand of Moses when he came down from the mountain) which were placed inside the Ark, which itself was also a type of Christ, because only in Christ is the Law kept 'un-broken'. To add works to your faith is like removing the Covering of the Ark and exposing yourself to the Perfect Standard. You have removed the covering of Christ when you stop acting in faith and rely on your works. “But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the LORD had dealt them,” I Samuel 6:19 “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” Galatians 5:2. It is all faith, it starts with faith, continues with faith and ends with faith.
Ok, so moving onto the differences between 'THE BOOK' of James and Paul:
James
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.!” James 2:14-26
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone” and "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"
It reads pretty much like James does not believe in Faith alone by this wouldn’t you agree?
“..shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
Paul says “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ” Galatians 1:6-7. The word “pervert” in the Greek means to put that which is in front behind and that which is behind in front. You don’t show faith by works, it is the other way around you show works by faith. Good deeds are but the natural outgrowth of the indwelling Holy Spirit which is literally God being Himself through you. You can only get His Spirit in you by faith alone and not by works or even by faith mixed with works. I really believe this message was lost on James because just by reading his epistle he seems completely blind to it.
More James:
“Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?”
Is not James saying here that Rahab’s works saved her? He does not say her faith saved her. Do you know what her works were? She lied to the soldiers that came looking for the spies from Joshua and sent them out another way after she had hid them in the hay. That is lying. That is not what saved her.
The writer to the Hebrews (whom I believe was Paul) says that she was saved by Faith.
“By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.” Hebrews 11:31
She welcomed the spies. She knew who was going to win the victory in Jericho and chose the right side. She believed the word of God that the walls of the city would be destroyed and acted on it. She obeyed the spies and (acting on belief in God's Word) hung the scarlet thread from her window and was thus saved she and all her family. But James says her lying saved her??? Read it again: “Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?”
No mention of her faith there at all.
More Paul
“For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:17
First to last, start to finish, and no mention of works anywhere.
“Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." Galatians 3:11
“For in just a very little while, “He who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.” Hebrews 10:37-39
Each of these versus is quoting a verse from the Old Testament:
“For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay. "See, he is puffed up; his desires are not upright— but the righteous will live by his faith” Habakkuk 2:3-4
More contradiction between James and Paul
James 4:17
"Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins."
But Paul points out in Romans 7 that this is wrong. He says it is no longer he who sins but sin in him.
Romans 7:14-20
“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
When coming to the close of his epistle James gives some advice but contrast that advice with the advice given in the closing verses of Ephesians:
James 5:12
“But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation”
Ephesians 6:16
“Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.”
Shall we continue?
I think you're right actually. I had another read of James, and he does say that faith alone does not save. I probably read it the last time with a view to proving a point rather than seeking some truth. I think its a natural instinct to argue a point you think you know:o Thanks for sticking with it.
To note though, I agree wholeheartedly that faith 'alone' saves. I always iterpretted James as saying that faith means action not just belief though (which it is) as you explained earlier. However, you are right, he seems to be saying that is faith 'and' works.
So would you see the book of James having any spiritual value then?0 -
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I think you're right actually. I had another read of James, and he does say that faith alone does not save. I probably read it the last time with a view to proving a point rather than seeking some truth. I think its a natural instinct to argue a point you think you know:o Thanks for sticking with it.
To note though, I agree wholeheartedly that faith 'alone' saves. I always iterpretted James as saying that faith means action not just belief though (which it is) as you explained earlier. However, you are right, he seems to be saying that is faith 'and' works.
So would you see the book of James having any spiritual value then?
Well Praise God for JimiTime
Indeed we will fight harder for something we have said than we world for the same thing if we hadn't said it. There are a few things James says that I like and what I've just said relates to one of them. He describes the tongue as the bridal of the body. What you say inevitably leads you. As a bridal controls the direction of a horse so our toungues control the directions of our bodies. Our tongues get us into more trouble than anything else. Best thing do with our big mouths is to mouth promises of God. Instead or worrying what the day will bring just speak forth the promise "As my day so shall my strength be". There is a promise for every circumstance we find ourselves in. We just need to mine the debts of God’s Word to find them and once found we speak them forth. If your sick, then it’s “I am the Lord that heals you” if you need provison the it’s “Jehovah Jira, the Lord will provide”. “With the heart man believes and with the mouth proclamation is made unto salvation” Not just believing but acting on the belief. This is the lost message of the Church. This is as true today as it was in the New Testament. God is immutable, meaning He does not change.
James also says to resist the devil and he will flee. This is true but we must keep on our guard because the word flee in its original meaning paints the picture he will back off, looking for another opening. He does not leave you alone completely. He's just awaiting your guard to be dropped. That's why Paul says to take up the shield of faith where with we can quench the fiery darts of the wicked.
I'm all for leaving James in the Bible. I think we've all learned a valuable lesson by his inclusion don't you agree?0 -
Soul Winner wrote: »Well Praise God for JimiTime
Well when you're wrong, you're wrong. No point in just continuing dumb. These days it seems to be looked on as an achievement to say you're wrong, 'tis a bit mad really isn't it. Don't praise God for Jimitime yet though:) As alot will tell u in these parts, I'm not a christian because I don't accept the well established doctrines. Don't believe in literal Hellfire, the immortal soul or the trinity doctrine:eek:I'm all for leaving James in the Bible. I think we've all learned a valuable lesson by his inclusion don't you agree?
I certainly have learned from the book of James. So do you believe that the bible can be erroneous? I never call it 'the word' of God myself, i believe thats a title reserved for Christ.0 -
Well when you're wrong, you're wrong. No point in just continuing dumb. These days it seems to be looked on as an achievement to say you're wrong, 'tis a bit mad really isn't it. Don't praise God for Jimitime yet though:) As alot will tell u in these parts, I'm not a christian because I don't accept the well established doctrines. Don't believe in literal Hellfire, the immortal soul or the trinity doctrine:eek:
Paul says in I Cor 4:3-4 "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord." So it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks of you. If you are a Christ centred person then you are a Christian. You can resolve a lot of those others issue you mentioned like hellfire etc.. by resolving the question as to who has the last authority in these matters? If Jesus rose from the dead as a fact of history as reported then what He says should be your foundation for what you believe. He spoke of the lake of fire so that's a good basis for believing in it I think. You can proceed along these lines with many things. Like the books of the Old Testament that Jesus quoted from, that sort of stamps His seal of approval on them, and as He is the One who rose form the dead then who else matters? All you need is faith in Christ to be a Christian you do not have to understand the inner workings of the universe. Paul said “we see through a glass darkly but then face to face”, so just trust Him on the matters that pertain to your everyday life. That’s what being a Christian is all about, nothing else. Do you think the thief on the cross understood the trinity or ever even heard of it? Yet because of His faith Jesus said He’d be with Him in Paradise that very same day. These stories should put to rest doubts about what we ought to understand in terms of eternal truths, just stick to the basics and worry about the other stuff over there.I certainly have learned from the book of James. So do you believe that the bible can be erroneous? I never call it 'the word' of God myself, i believe thats a title reserved for Christ.
I believe God is in control of everything especially His Word. “Heaven and Earth will pass away but my Word will never pass away” You must remember He is dealing with imperfect mankind who is prone to mistakes and errors but He enters even into our mistakes to work His good. Instead of analysing where the Bible is unclear it would be better to go by where it is absolutely clear. Always start with Christ and work outward from Him. Like the issue of Jonah, Daniel and Noah. A lot of people just don’t believe those people even existed or if they did they don’t believe in their stories, yet Jesus spoke of them. And Jesus said before Abraham was He (Jesus) was, so He would know wouldn’t He? You see we can be very dumb at times, but if we keep our focus on Jesus a lot can be resolved within our own spirit at least. Or you must dismiss Jesus as believing in fairy tales Himself. It reminds me of a story I heard about a person who wouldn’t allow the doctor to see to his wound until he found out who shot him. Once he found out then he wanted to know what trajectory the bullet entered. Then its speed. Then the temperature of the day at the time and so on and so on, and by the time it came to fixing him he died. If there are errors in God’s Word then it is not due to God. The Bible has a long history. It is made up of many different books. All written by different people in different times and in languages before English was a language. You would have to have all the original manuscripts in their original state laid out in order to say with absolute certainty that there is errors. If you wait around for this you’ll miss all the important stuff in between which is living by faith. Just stick to what is clear in the Bible especially where it repeats itself is the best advice I can give. 0 -
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Soul Winner wrote: »Paul says in I Cor 4:3-4 "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord." So it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks of you. If you are a Christ centred person then you are a Christian. You can resolve a lot of those others issue you mentioned like hellfire etc.. by resolving the question as to who has the last authority in these matters? If Jesus rose from the dead as a fact of history as reported then what He says should be your foundation for what you believe. He spoke of the lake of fire so that's a good basis for believing in it I think. You can proceed along these lines with many things. Like the books of the Old Testament that Jesus quoted from, that sort of stamps His seal of approval on them, and as He is the One who rose form the dead then who else matters? All you need is faith in Christ to be a Christian you do not have to understand the inner workings of the universe. Paul said “we see through a glass darkly but then face to face”, so just trust Him on the matters that pertain to your everyday life. That’s what being a Christian is all about, nothing else. Do you think the thief on the cross understood the trinity or ever even heard of it? Yet because of His faith Jesus said He’d be with Him in Paradise that very same day. These stories should put to rest doubts about what we ought to understand in terms of eternal truths, just stick to the basics and worry about the other stuff over there.
I believe God is in control of everything especially His Word. “Heaven and Earth will pass away but my Word will never pass away” You must remember He is dealing with imperfect mankind who is prone to mistakes and errors but He enters even into our mistakes to work His good. Instead of analysing where the Bible is unclear it would be better to go by where it is absolutely clear. Always start with Christ and work outward from Him. Like the issue of Jonah, Daniel and Noah. A lot of people just don’t believe those people even existed or if they did they don’t believe in their stories, yet Jesus spoke of them. And Jesus said before Abraham was He (Jesus) was, so He would know wouldn’t He? You see we can be very dumb at times, but if we keep our focus on Jesus a lot can be resolved within our own spirit at least. Or you must dismiss Jesus as believing in fairy tales Himself. It reminds me of a story I heard about a person who wouldn’t allow the doctor to see to his wound until he found out who shot him. Once he found out then he wanted to know what trajectory the bullet entered. Then its speed. Then the temperature of the day at the time and so on and so on, and by the time it came to fixing him he died. If there are errors in God’s Word then it is not due to God. The Bible has a long history. It is made up of many different books. All written by different people in different times and in languages before English was a language. You would have to have all the original manuscripts in their original state laid out in order to say with absolute certainty that there is errors. If you wait around for this you’ll miss all the important stuff in between which is living by faith. Just stick to what is clear in the Bible especially where it repeats itself is the best advice I can give.
Soul Winner, I salute you. I certainly see wisdom in your posts, and thank you for not entering into judgement against me (actually that sounds a bit like I'm a victim, thats not how its meant to sound). Although you probably disagree with me on many things, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding faith in our lord and king Jesus Christ. As I said earlier, thanks for taking the time.
I had an interesting conversation the other day with someone who was saying about how there are 25 'gospels' but only 4 were chosen for the new testament. i was explaining how the info contained in just one of the books of the gospel, is enough for salvation. I think we can get way too carried away with the intellectual side at times, when the actual Good News is quite precise and to the point. We complicate it with dogma's etc. I suppose, like the talmud was for the law. Anyway, I'm rambling now.
J.0 -
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It originates from earlier than this. I think you should be asking yourself is why didn't Jesus or Paul condemn this practice which was widespread, if it wasn't appropriate to do so?
TBH, its not of great importance, its just you said I was being 'non-biblical', when your own religion has 'non-biblcal' customs. Including your hierarchy. Jesus actually did condemn pharisees who wore their fancy garments to stand out. Something about the size of the frills?This is Biblically based, if you wouldn't mind looking to Exodus that is.
So all your priests are levites? and they wear a breastplate with 12 precious stones on it? Come on. We are Christians not Jews. Do you eat pork? Our high priest is now Yeshua our Messiah. Why do you base your point on exodus, when Paul told us of our christian structure?
It was never anything else! It was pagan in the beginning.I have to say that this really assumes that I don't think Christmas is corrupted in any shape or form.
So its not biblical. My point exactly. You point the finger at me wrongly for 'not being biblical'. When really, being biblical is not of such great importance to you anyway. Your tradition is whats important.It's not commanded that we do so,
Is it? Also, why is 'rebranding' not an option with Paul? He condems those who go back to pagan customs. He doesn't say, 'i tell you what, keep doing everything you do on saturnalia, but just call it christmas'. Its something that baffles me about most christians. they really don't see any issue with using pagan customs dedicated to pagan gods to worship GodAt least this pagan festival is now dedicated to the true God if that is any constellation No matter what you say, it just never can sit right. In Jerimiah it talks about those decorating fir trees. it doesn't say lets rebrand it and stick an image of abraham on top. Anyway.I don't have a problem with the festival itself however. The majority of Christians would regard it as the same.
i know, thats what I find crazy.but back to your original accusation, its not biblical.0 -
TBH, its not of great importance, its just you said I was being 'non-biblical', when your own religion has 'non-biblcal' customs. Including your hierarchy. Jesus actually did condemn pharisees who wore their fancy garments to stand out. Something about the size of the frills?
The purpose of the vestments is not so the priests stand out. The priests wear the vestments so that they honour the sacred role of the Eucharist in the church and respect the sacredness of the altar by which they carry out the process. As I said this is the same reason why the Jewish priestly class wore vestments in carrying out the sacrifices in the Tent of the Lord's Presence and ultimately the temple. Nothing about the size of the frills or standing out. For the third time (I think it's the third), I must say it is biblical.JimiTime wrote:So all your priests are levites? and they wear a breastplate with 12 precious stones on it? Come on. We are Christians not Jews. Do you eat pork? Our high priest is now Yeshua our Messiah. Why do you base your point on exodus, when Paul told us of our christian structure?
No they aren't Levites of course not. They are most likely Gentile to the core. However the Lord called them to be priests. That is the purpose of the priesthood or why one becomes a priest. Do I eat pork? Personally no actually. That is true the high priest is Jesus, but that does not mean that we should still not wear vestments on the altar. He or anyone else did not speak against it, if he found the practise to be worthy to be spared reform in the New Covenant.JimiTime wrote:It was never anything else! It was pagan in the beginning.
So I guess you didn't celebrate it like the rest of us? It is actually accurate to say that Christ was born either near the Jewish festival of Sukkot, or the Advent period according to something I came across earlier:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Christmas/christmas.htmlJimiTime wrote:So its not biblical. My point exactly. You point the finger at me wrongly for 'not being biblical'. When really, being biblical is not of such great importance to you anyway. Your tradition is whats important.
My tradition comes from the Bible. As you will know that all dogma has to be based on the Canonical books. (Not from the Deuterocanonical like the RC Church).JimiTime wrote:Is it? Also, why is 'rebranding' not an option with Paul? He condems those who go back to pagan customs. He doesn't say, 'i tell you what, keep doing everything you do on saturnalia, but just call it christmas'. Its something that baffles me about most christians. they really don't see any issue with using pagan customs dedicated to pagan gods to worship God No matter what you say, it just never can sit right. In Jerimiah it talks about those decorating fir trees. it doesn't say lets rebrand it and stick an image of abraham on top. Anyway.
Hm JimiTime, Paul discussed people who largely fell back to their own pagan ways, involving physically worshipping a false god, or eating meat that was sacrificed to an idol / false god. By reforming Christmas to what it is today, it actually gives us an appropriate time to worship God. Actually what do you think of other holy days for Easter, Pentecost, Ash Wednesday etc? Are they just rebranding too?JimiTime wrote:i know, thats what I find crazy.but back to your original accusation, its not biblical.
I don't find it crazy at all. It's an appropriate time to worship Jesus, and the Advent period allows for deep thought in the ways of Christ and it allows for self-examination to see if we are following the ways of Christ adequately. I think it's in fact necessary. It and Lent have been traditionally times of fasting.0 -
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