Shane MacGowan is over-rated - discuss

Dub6Kevin

Major uproar in the office when this remark was passed. What do you think?

super_furry

Of course he is. His best work with the Pogues, which wasn't that great to start with, was released years and years ago and he's been living off that reputation ever since. When people think of Shane MacGowan now, they don't think of the music, they think of the drunk human sideshow.

Bren_M.Records

Dub6Kevin wrote: »

Major uproar in the office when this remark was passed. What do you think?

Id agree with super_furry to a point in that now the man really is just a sideshow freak now.
But when he was at his peak with the Pogues I think he/they were fantastic.
Horrible as it might sound maybe it would have been better if the guy had died back then and we'd just remember those times instead of him just shuffling along year after year which is definitally effecting how people view him and his music.

DerekD Goldfish

First few Pogues albums are great
now they are a pathetic joke
I only hope for Shane's sake he dies soon enough so
he doesn't further destroy his legacy.
Future Generations should see the Pogous on of the best bands Ireland/UK(seeing as most of them are British but lets not get into that argument) has ever produced not a definition for drunken has beens.

DerekD Goldfish

Bren_M.Records wrote: »

Id agree with super_furry to a point in that now the man really is just a sideshow freak now.
But when he was at his peak with the Pogues I think he/they were fantastic.
Horrible as it might sound maybe it would have been better if the guy had died back then and we'd just remember those times instead of him just shuffling along year after year which is definitally effecting how people view him and his music.

I agree and had posted basically the same thing before my comp blew up.

GhostInTheRuins

I don't know how true this is, but someone told me about the night they went to see him a few years ago.

Show begins, He's wheeled out on stage in a wheelchair, locked as usual. They start the first song, Shane procedes to puke all over himself. Band stops, Shane's wheeled off stage, show's over.

Dub6Kevin

I've got to say I think ye're very harsh.

So Shane is a shambles, is almost unintelligible when he speaks and hasn't maintained the high standards of his early work, but come on, the man has written some of the best songs to come out of these Irelands for generations.

The Fairytale of New York is obvious but what about Rainy Night in Soho? A Pair of Brown Eyes? Sally MacLennanes? Thousands are Sailing?

On top of that, The Pogues did something incredible for the second generation Irish throughout the world. Most particularly in Britain in the eighties (when being proud of Irish heritage was still a potentially hazardous attitude) they stuck two fingers up to the bigots and had the sons and daughters of navvies and nurses celebrating their roots. I know - I was one of them and it was fantastic!

Give the guy some credit. He's deeply flawed (and who among us isn't?) but I genuinely regard him as an outstanding writer (and I deliberately don't say song-writer because his lyrics often stand up as verse alone) and a creative force without whom modern Irish and Anglo-Irish culture would be far the lesser.

grumpytrousers

He is not over rated, IMNSHO. If people don't like him, fine. If they think he's a drunken fool, fine. But that's like saying Keith Richards doesn't matter at all 'cos there's not been a good Stones album in 25 years.

The fact is that he produced *great* stuff and it endures. And long after he dies, people will still hold 'A Pair of Brown Eyes' or countless other tunes up as being the high watermark of beautifully written lyrics. He's the classic tragic anti-hero, completely f*cked up and self destructive, but anybody who can listen to Rainy Night in Soho and not find it to be deeply moving (esp the line 'you're the measure of my dreams') should *seriously* check themselves for a pulse....

Yap Stam

Give him a break- he's a better ambassodor than Louis f**kin walsh.

Irish people like drinkin, nowadays many of us are trying to hide it to look cool- shane didn't bother, he was as honest as they come, it was a bit overdone at times but often it was refreshing to see someone acting like a real person (a very drunk real person). Thats why you still see him on talk shows etc.- he's a great character.

The Pogues had one phenominally original sound- i didn't necessarily love everything they did (sometimes the bawdy drinking ballads were difficult to sit through)- but they sounded like nobody else out there, these days most irish bands avoid the trad music sound, why? Its because they are insecure about they're nationality, they'd rather be English or American; and they all sound the same.

But before you all start having a go at The Pogues remeber this- which is better to have playing at a party, the music of The Pogues or The god-awful drony embarrasment that is The Frames?

DerekD Goldfish

Yap Stam wrote: »

Give him a break- he's a better ambassodor than Louis f**kin walsh.

Irish people like drinkin, nowadays many of us are trying to hide it to look cool- shane didn't bother, he was as honest as they come, it was a bit overdone at times but often it was refreshing to see someone acting like a real person (a very drunk real person). Thats why you still see him on talk shows etc.- he's a great character.

The Pogues had one phenominally original sound- i didn't necessarily love everything they did (sometimes the bawdy drinking ballads were difficult to sit through)- but they sounded like nobody else out there, these days most irish bands avoid the trad music sound, why? Its because they are insecure about they're nationality, they'd rather be English or American; and they all sound the same.

But before you all start having a go at The Pogues remeber this- which is better to have playing at a party, the music of The Pogues or The god-awful drony embarrasment that is The Frames?

Different Argument but mainly because its muck
90% of Trad is complete drivel the Pogues managed to produce some great music while incorporating trad but they were the exception the last thing this country needs is a rake of new bands influenced by trad

Yap Stam

Different Argument but mainly because its muck
90% of Trad is complete drivel the Pogues managed to produce some great music while incorporating trad but they were the exception the last thing this country needs is a rake of new bands influenced by trad


90%- indeed even 99% of all music is complete drivel, its the cream at the top that makes listening to music all worthwhile. And why shouldn't bands be influenced by the music of their country?;

Bob Marley, Manu Ciao, Sepultura and in this country The Horslips- all of those bands were influenced by their respective native musical styles, and they were all great bands.

'A rake of new bands influenced by trad' sounds alot better than 'a rake of new bands influenced by David Bowie and The Jam'; and thats what we've had for the past number of years, needless to say, they're all sh1t, they all sound exactly the same and none of them can play their instruments well- if anything trad music would teach them how to play their instruments properly.

bill_ashmount

Shane MacGowan is a legend.

It's great that some people on this forum would rather he was dead in order to preserve their image of him :rolleyes:

DerekD Goldfish

Yap Stam wrote: »

Different Argument but mainly because its muck
90% of Trad is complete drivel the Pogues managed to produce some great music while incorporating trad but they were the exception the last thing this country needs is a rake of new bands influenced by trad


90%- indeed even 99% of all music is complete drivel, its the cream at the top that makes listening to music all worthwhile. And why shouldn't bands be influenced by the music of their country?;

Bob Marley, Manu Ciao, Sepultura and in this country The Horslips- all of those bands were influenced by their respective native musical styles, and they were all great bands.

'A rake of new bands influenced by trad' sounds alot better than 'a rake of new bands influenced by David Bowie and The Jam'; and thats what we've had for the past number of years, needless to say, they're all sh1t, they all sound exactly the same and none of them can play their instruments well- if anything trad music would teach them how to play their instruments properly.

Why should you limit your influences to music form the country of your birth?
National boundaries are irrelevant to music

Mossy Monk

I like him, great song writer.

Hector Gilbert

DerekD Goldfish wrote: »

Why should you limit your influences to music form the country of your birth?
National boundaries are irrelevant to music

Indeed, and even then people seem to have forgotten that Shane MacGowan wasn't born in Ireland anyway

I'll admit The Pogues aren't even my thing, so by extension I don't see the fuss over MacGowan in general. I wouldn't have either The Pogues or The Frames playing at my party

Yap Stam

I never said you should limit your influences to those within your own country- most artists/musicians will have several different influences, whats wrong with some of them being from your own country? Or even from the cultural music of your own country?

Shane McGowan was from an Irish family, he spent much of his early youth in Silvermines (I think its in Tipperary, I'm not sure)- no he wasn't born here but lets just take note of something here- Phil Lynott (Thin Lizzy) was born in England, but most people seem to be happy to call him Irish.

Yap Stam

DerekD Goldfish wrote: »

Why should you limit your influences to music form the country of your birth?
National boundaries are irrelevant to music

Strictly speaking music itself (as in instruments, notes, harmonies etc.) shouldn't have boundaries- but the minute you put lyrics over something it will take on a cultural character.

eg. Rap music is fairly popular in Ireland, even though most of the rappers that are popular over here are American. MC Solaar is a hugely popular Rap artist in France, so why isn't he popular over here? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that he raps in French. So in the end there will always be a certain amount of national character to any music.

aidan24326

Yap Stam wrote: »

Irish people like drinkin, nowadays many of us are trying to hide it to look cool- shane didn't bother, he was as honest as they come, it was a bit overdone at times but often it was refreshing to see someone acting like a real person (a very drunk real person). Thats why you still see him on talk shows etc.- he's a great character

Well he used to be, but the last couple of times I've seen him on talk shows he's been a sorry mess and could hardly speak. Sad to see really. I think they have him on now just for the car crash value, he was a good character in his day for sure but now seems totally pickled.

Never a big Pogues fan but there's no denying he wrote some good songs, and some very evocative lyrics that as another poster mentioned actually stand up well just as words even without any musical context. I wouldn't say he's over-rated as such, I think people are well aware of what he is/was. A telented songwriter who has always had his finger one inch from the self-destruct button.

philstar

shane macgowen is the type of gombeen that makes me feel embarrassed to be irish, his drunken paddy image is well past its sell by date now

JimmyJazz

It's interesting how the thread has split into two parts:
- An arguement of Shanes image
and
- A discussion about the validity of Trad music

Both of which are missing to OPs question - How the man looks and behaves has feck-all to do with whether he's overrated or not. Same goes for whether you rate trad as an improtant musical form.

So... Is he over rated - I dunno, who'se doing the rating? I've been playing The Pogues music all round Ireland for the last 3 years in a tribute band. The boys in the band are some of the best musicians I've ever played with and none of 'em are of the beardy-arran-jumper types - All still play in more conventional bands also.

Here's the thing with the pogues music live - some gigs are absolutely great and some are total balls. The crowds either really get into it or they get up and leave(not actually but you know what I mean). It's the kind of stuff that it's impossible not to have an opinion about and kind-of forces you to make a decision about - it's definitely not letting the listener ignore! For me that's definitely a good thing...

Also, I've been playing music for 20yrs and have played in all types of band from metal to acoustic. I've had discussions with the lads about this point and we all agree that this music makes you feel different to play. One minute you're on your toes driving along to a punky back-beat and next thing you're picking out a beautiful melody in one of the more ballady type numbers. It's a bit hard to describe without sounding like a nob... so I'll leave it there.

The Pogues are not just about Shane - he's a really talanted writer and some of his lyrics are jawdropping. But jezas lads - the rest of the band add so much more.

I'm not gonna give you a list of flawed geniuses in music but for me Shane has written some of the most powerful music of my life and The Pogues have opened up Irish music to a new generation of players and fans...

lordgoat

While i wouldn't be a big fan of him, i do think as a songwriter he did write some fantastic lyrics.

Also the people hoping he would die? What the fu-ck is that about? So his musical output lately has been pretty non-existent so what. What's not to say he won't write another song, or meet someone and influence them to write a song, or just make a positive difference in some small way.