Arm the Gardai?

the locust

I have quite a few friends from the US and Canada and Auz... they are absolutely dumbfounded to hear that the uniformed Garda Siochana are unarmed. I am frequently asked... - 'what do you do if... someone has a gun or a knife or you meet a deranged psychopath etc... blah blah'
I've waffled off quite a range of answers - as americans always go for thier guns first... Gardai have to rely on their brains etc...
Although i did vote for arming, i think the that apart from the constitution its an issue like everything - funding and public confidence.
It would be sad to see Gardai being shot and then they arm the force as a response measure. I think it should be in place as a preventative measure, as prevention is part of the corporate strategy.

The major bonus of arming more members would be the level of professionalism, training and responsibility would have to increase greatly because you cannot give guns to an undisciplined group of guys.

cushtac

the locust wrote: »

Although i did vote for arming, i think the that apart from the constitution its an issue like everything - funding and public confidence.

To the best of my knowledge, policing isn't mentioned anywhere in the Constitution.

CLADA

Here's an interesting question:

How many Gardai have been shot dead by armed non subversive criminals since the foundation of the state?

I'm talking about criminals not acting in the name of IRA, INLA etc...

TheNog

I don't believe there has been any.

Reinforces the point that the Gardai should not be armed.

cushtac

TheNog wrote: »

I don't believe there has been any.

Reinforces the point that the Gardai should not be armed.

Many of the Gardai killed on duty have been killed by non-subversive criminals. One that comes to mind is Patrick Reynolds, who was shot dead in Tallaght in 1982.

Turner

You are forgetting the countless number of gardai who have had to retire on medical grounds after

getting stabbed
getting beaten to an inch of their life
getting run over in cars
getting rammed in cars
been disfigured by slash hooks, shovels, pitch forks
had cavity blocks dropped on their heads

All of which could have been prevented and avoided by the use of lethal force had they been armed.

Mind you its probably cheaper for the state to allow all of the above to happen and have the gardai retire with minor claims rather than have the states claims authority pay out millions to the families of shot/dead criminals.

Do any of the above in the states or any armed force's juristiction and you could expect to have lethal force used on you.

Im surprised many gardai in some of the worst areas actually show up for work given the resources or lack of they are provided with.

the locust

cushtac wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge, policing isn't mentioned anywhere in the Constitution.

Apologies - i was refering to the Michael Staines (1st Commissioner) infamous quote, that 'Gardai shall not suceed by force of arms, but by thier moral authority as servants of the people'
Its something they've always used as an argument against arming.

CLADA

Chief--- wrote: »

You are forgetting the countless number of gardai who have had to retire on medical grounds after

getting stabbed
getting beaten to an inch of their life
getting run over in cars
getting rammed in cars
been disfigured by slash hooks, shovels, pitch forks
had cavity blocks dropped on their heads

All of which could have been prevented and avoided by the use of lethal force had they been armed.

Unfortunately Chief, if a firearm is used in any of those examples you have given it is followed by a criminal investigation into the actions of the garda, a trial by media and possibly a tribunal of inquiry.

Although the garda may well believe his life was in danger he faces all of the above over a lengthly period of time before he is either exonerated or prosecuted.

And in answer to the question I posed, believe it or not the only Garda shot dead by a killer with no links to a subversive organisation was Sgt Patrick McLoughlin in Dunboyne in 1983.

TheNog

Chief--- wrote: »

You are forgetting the countless number of gardai who have had to retire on medical grounds after

getting stabbed
getting beaten to an inch of their life
getting run over in cars
getting rammed in cars
been disfigured by slash hooks, shovels, pitch forks
had cavity blocks dropped on their heads

All of which could have been prevented and avoided by the use of lethal force had they been armed.

Mind you its probably cheaper for the state to allow all of the above to happen and have the gardai retire with minor claims rather than have the states claims authority pay out millions to the families of shot/dead criminals.

Do any of the above in the states or any armed force's juristiction and you could expect to have lethal force used on you.

CLADA wrote: »

Unfortunately Chief, if a firearm is used in any of those examples you have given it is followed by a criminal investigation into the actions of the garda, a trial by media and possibly a tribunal of inquiry.

Although the garda may well believe his life was in danger he faces all of the above over a lengthly period of time before he is either exonerated or prosecuted.

And in answer to the question I posed, believe it or not the only Garda shot dead by a killer with no links to a subversive organisation was Sgt Patrick McLoughlin in Dunboyne in 1983.

Both of you make a good point however with ever increasing violence on our streets towards the public and the Gardai I can see the Gardai being routinely armed in the next 15 to 20 years.

It is not something I would like to see but at the end of the day I would like to be safe as much as possible. For the next few years though we will still rely on our quick thinking and our verbal reasoning when faced with a dangerous situation.

Eru

metman wrote: »

Next year I'm moving to a unit that has an armed capability, so yes I wish to work armed. However I don't think routine arming of the Gardai or the Police here is necessary as yet, besides we all know people we wouldn't trust with a sharpened pencil let alone a Glock or MP5.

While I have come across firearms on duty I have never felt that I need a firearm to do my job as a response officer. On the other hand, routine arming with taser would be ideal. On occasion I, like most officers, have struggled with very violent suspects off their faces on crack/alcohol/other/all of the above, that have proven all but impervious to pain compliance techniques...where you wind up bundling on a load of old bill and trussing the suspect up like a turkey with cuffs and leg restraints. Last time round, I got kicked in the head, my colleague got headbutted and another had his nose broken as we tried to get the slag into the van, all the while the suspect spat mouthfuls of his own blood (he'd been bottled in a club after being racially abusive) at us as a crowd gathered and started shouting "police brutality"! Taser would sort this kind of individual out sharpish giving officers the chance to gain compliance quickly and effectively.

I agree 100% with this statement!

timmywex wrote: »

an interesting idea here thanks to the garda inspectorate;

Under the plan members of the second
tier armed response unit would be
established regionally and would be
issued with specially customised patrol
vehicles which would carry arms
in secure locked strongboxes. The
members would patrol normally and
carry out standard garda duties in
standard uniform. On being called
to an incident the members would
change into a uniform similar to that
of the ERU and proceed to the scene
where they would provide an armed
resource for the on-scene commander.

This plan is already being watered down to such an extent that its pointless.nThey will not be allowed carry guns and will need permission to go back to the station to get them. Pointless!

Eru

TheNog wrote: »

I don't believe there has been any.

Reinforces the point that the Gardai should not be armed.

Clada you very much mistaken. Plenty were not IRA linked, most are just listed as 'armed wanted man' or 'bank robber'. Some that I know were not subversive are: 1978 Raheny, point blank range and Garda Reynolds fell to a bank robbers gun. Sergeant Paul Reid was shot dead in Snipers alley, Sarajevo while on UN duty.

And as mentioned, a gun is not just to protect from another gun. How many Gardai are stabbed or shot but not killed? Had a gun pointed at them?

I dont want complete arming as I do feel it causes problems when interacting with people. In some places the gun is used or taken out all the time
and thats the accepted practice but in Ireland it wouldnt be. If your wrestling with a drunk or whatever and he is unarmed or only has a bottle you would not be protected or covered in using a gun. therefore the biggest risk is that same drunk getting your gun during the struggle.

Nog,
The rest of that speech promised arming if Gardai were being shot dead. 3 times the Commisioner has looked to arm the force and 3 times the minister has refused.

TheNog

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

This plan is already being watered down to such an extent that its pointless.nThey will not be allowed carry guns and will need permission to go back to the station to get them. Pointless!

For what reason are they watering down the plan?

civdef

This raises into question the point of having an inspectoratem, if their recommendations are just ignored. That report quoted also recommeneded the immediate introduction of OC spray for all front line officers.

CLADA

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Clada you very much mistaken. Plenty were not IRA linked, most are just listed as 'armed wanted man' or 'bank robber'. Some that I know were not subversive are: 1978 Raheny, point blank range and Garda Reynolds fell to a bank robbers gun. Sergeant Paul Reid was shot dead in Snipers alley, Sarajevo while on UN duty.

Its actually 1975 in Raheny, Garda Michael Reynolds was shot dead by Noel and Marie Murray members of Saor Eire a marxist republican group.

The other Garda Reynolds was Patrick, he was shot dead in Tallaght during a struggle with INLA members who had earlier in the day raided the Bank of Ireland in Askeaton, Co. Limerick.

Paul Reids tragic death was as a result of sniper fire striking his vehicle and causing a loss of control.

And Finally...

The RSU (regional support units) will not have to return to their stations to collect firearms, the weapons will be carried in a firearms safe in the vehicle.

eroo

So GS is basically going through the motions of ARV's that CO19 went through 18 years ago?Do ERU carry around their firearms in safe boxes as well when on patrol?If not why don't the RSU's follow suit?

CLADA

eroo wrote: »

So GS is basically going through the motions of ARV's that CO19 went through 18 years ago?

Well eroo, it would appear the Garda inspectorate report envisaged the Public Order Unit doubling up as the RSU, but due to the fact that the public order units were not dedicated full time units this would appear to be a non runner.

So the RSU's will be available resources for general policing and throw on the gear and unlock the safe when required to attend barricaded scenes etc..pending the arrival of the ERU.

eroo wrote: »

Do ERU carry around their firearms in safe boxes as well when on patrol?If not why don't the RSU's follow suit

For Gods sake man don't say that too loud! Do you want the men in black in Harcourt Sq. to think you are putting the RSU's in their league?

Eru

CLADA wrote: »

Its actually 1975 in Raheny, Garda Michael Reynolds was shot dead by Noel and Marie Murray members of Saor Eire a marxist republican group.

The other Garda Reynolds was Patrick, he was shot dead in Tallaght during a struggle with INLA members who had earlier in the day raided the Bank of Ireland in Askeaton, Co. Limerick.

Paul Reids tragic death was as a result of sniper fire striking his vehicle and causing a loss of control.

And Finally...

The RSU (regional support units) will not have to return to their stations to collect firearms, the weapons will be carried in a firearms safe in the vehicle.

Well on that basis then no one was but then again in Ireland most criminals will claim to be republican in some way. Hell, Im a republican along with the majority of people living in the republic.

My source has told me that the RSU will not be carrying firearms with them as the whole point is a scaled response. Us, then RSU with Tazer, then RSU firearms then the ERU if it comes to it. Where DDU, etc fit in I dont know.

They dont want uniform Gardai driving around with guns without a specific reason or call. Time will tell but this is the Gardai, management still believe that holding your hand up and using a stern voice works a treat. Afterall Noel said that we didnt need spray as he personally didnt think the beat was any more dangerous than years previous. :rolleyes:

TheNog

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Where DDU, etc fit in I dont know.

DDU in my district are pretty much 9 to 5 weekdays with the odd time they will work other hours depending on the job they are doing. So at weekends we have no armed cover at all but having that it is rare that armed cover be needed. It would be nice to know though it is available if required.

eroo

CLADA wrote: »

Well eroo, it would appear the Garda inspectorate report envisaged the Public Order Unit doubling up as the RSU, but due to the fact that the public order units were not dedicated full time units this would appear to be a non runner.

So the RSU's will be available resources for general policing and throw on the gear and unlock the safe when required to attend barricaded scenes etc..pending the arrival of the ERU.




For Gods sake man don't say that too loud! Do you want the men in black in Harcourt Sq. to think you are putting the RSU's in their league?

Oh yes,POU's are manned by uniform..and act when called up for incidents or in advance for op's,so them doubling up as RSU probably wouldn't work logistically.

Did someone mention men in black...I can hear the blacked out Pajero's coming in the driveway!!!!!!!:eek::p

Why don't they just create full time RSU's/ARV's that could be based in cities??

Eru

TheNog wrote: »

DDU in my district are pretty much 9 to 5 weekdays with the odd time they will work other hours depending on the job they are doing. So at weekends we have no armed cover at all but having that it is rare that armed cover be needed. It would be nice to know though it is available if required.

Ah rural sorry. We have 2 DDU units on all the time. 1 patroling the division and one for......PM

CLADA

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

My source has told me that the RSU will not be carrying firearms with them as the whole point is a scaled response. Us, then RSU with Tazer, then RSU firearms then the ERU if it comes to it.

He or She is wrong. Read Chapter 2.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/GInspBarricadeIncidents.pdf/Files/GInspBarricadeIncidents.pdf

Eru

CLADA wrote: »

He or She is wrong. Read Chapter 2.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/GInspBarricadeIncidents.pdf/Files/GInspBarricadeIncidents.pdf

Thats the Inspectorate recommendations only. She also said we should all have OC spray and police spec cars but that aint happening either. Its the big mans decision not hers.

I wish she could push the issue more, she has been fully behind the mules since she started.

CLADA

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Thats the Inspectorate recommendations only. She also said we should all have OC spray and police spec cars but that aint happening either. Its the big mans decision not hers.

I wish she could push the issue more, she has been fully behind the mules since she started.

Yes, I agree that a lot of recommendations in the report are not being implemented, a lot of those that are up and running appear to be half hearted.

My point is that whoever told you these units will be unarmed is wrong. Their primary function is to be a first response to a barricaded incident or crisis scene pending the arrival of ERU.

I'm waiting for the day when management will be asked to account for the implementation of all those recommendations.
Then we will see if the inspectorate has any teeth;)

Eru

Well Clada we dont know yet until we see it happen and the cars roll out of the station but I think its a little arrogant for you to say someone is wrong when they are working on what you are, an opinion based on the information made available.

still Im sure he will be happy to be wrong on this one.

CLADA

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I think its a little arrogant for you to say someone is wrong when they are working on what you are, an opinion based on the information made available.

I'm working on a little bit more than that actually

However, that said, I will take no pleasure in being proven correct in a few months time:D

Tac

i think the uniformed gardai should not be armed,,,however, in every district headquarter, there should be an Armed Responce Vehicle, manned by 2 members, attached to that district, covering that district alone.

if the gardai had that, nearly every division would have in the regions of 5 - 8 ARV's at their disposal, depending on how many districts is in that devision alone......the time has come, aint no doubt about that.

its no use if an armed raid on a bank takes place in one end of the division, and the only ARV is at the other end, if there was one within 15 - 20 minutes away, the chance of an arrest would be greatly increased,,,

anyway, the way things have gone, if two un-armed gardai in a patrol car decided to stop a car that looked a bit sus, and that car had 100,000 euro worth of cocaine in it, plus a 9mm GLOCK, what do you thing the outcome would be? life is NOT worth 100,000 these days.......but imagine if anytine a car driver saw blue lights stopping him / her, they didnt know if the Gardai were armed or not?...they would be very easy to talk to!

as i said, i think the time has come to provide the Gardai with strong armed assistance, the public deserve that sort of protection too. sermon over!

the locust

Garda ARV's will be uniformed and drivers will have done a tactical drivers course.
I welcome them, i think they are definitely needed.

I hate that Gardai pull Detective units away from thier roles as detectives, crime investigators etc... to do posts and act as ARV's etc...

santosubito

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Well on that basis then no one was but then again in Ireland most criminals will claim to be republican in some way. Hell, Im a republican along with the majority of people living in the republic.

My source has told me that the RSU will not be carrying firearms with them as the whole point is a scaled response. Us, then RSU with Tazer, then RSU firearms then the ERU if it comes to it. Where DDU, etc fit in I dont know.

They dont want uniform Gardai driving around with guns without a specific reason or call. Time will tell but this is the Gardai, management still believe that holding your hand up and using a stern voice works a treat. Afterall Noel said that we didnt need spray as he personally didnt think the beat was any more dangerous than years previous. :rolleyes:

I see AGSI's conference, which starts tomorrow in Meath, has a motion calling for the RSUs to be in unmarked cars. They are also demanding an assurance that uniformed gardai will continmue to be unarmed.

eroo

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0327/6news_av.html?2354030,null,230

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhojeyididsn/

Garda Emergency Response Unit to be deployed in Limerick
27/03/2008 - 16:15:45

The Garda Commissioner is to deploy the Emergency Response Unit to Limerick in the next few days following his discussions with the Justice Minister this afternoon.

The decision follows an escalation in feud activity, including a machine gun attack on six houses in the St Mary's Park area of the city on Tuesday.

The Commissioner briefed Brian Lenihan on Garda efforts to combat criminal activity in Limerick when they met earlier today.

Commissioner Murphy said the ERU would provide back-up to existing armed patrols in an effort to crack-down on gun crime in the city.

Yes it is something..but it is a REACTION.Also,the pilot RSU's won't be up and running until the summer!Although that will be good timing as things get worse during the summer..

I have no doubt the ERU's presence will calm things down here but it is purely a reactive measure.The current armed patrols aren't doing much as detectives get enough abuse off of gangs of yobs firing bottles at their cars to be able to effectively tackle armed crim's:mad:.So how will they tackle this?It can't be left until the summer when the RSU's are supposedly being brought in..the ERU can hardly handle armed patrolling until then??AFAIK,a Garda heli is being brought in permanently to Limerick in coming weeks,at least a step in the right direction!

Also,the fact that Mayorstone Station closes at 6/7pm is ridiculous..that station handles the majority of 'flash points'!At least this deployment will settle things for now,but I hate to think what will happen if these RSU's aren't deployed as soon as possible:(

Btw,the Gardai in Limerick do great work and are always taking these guys on,but without FULL resources being made available it will remain an uphill struggle..same applies to AGS nationally,tbh.

ciaran2008

How comfortable would a serving Garda feel carrying a weapon? It’s different in the North as PSNI officers need to carry weapons in order to protect themselves not from armed civilians but paramilitary organisations.