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Depends on the country. Some still unfortunately practice this sort of thing.0
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But I suppose the important question for me would be is this practice lawful or unlawful under Islam ? What does Quran or Hadith say of marriages like this ?
A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim Hadith, Book 8 Number 3311).
Link to text of Hadith (in English translation): http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/008_smt.html0 -
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This topic has been discussed at great length already on this forum. There are two main arguments. One is that the age of Aisha was older (or at least can't be known exactly) and the other is that the maturity of a 9/12 year old girl then is not the same as that of a 9/12 year old girl now.
Since doing some recent reading, I've become more convinced with the former. Quite some time ago, I read something about the difference in age between Asmaa (Aisha's sister) and Aisha herself and how this would mean that Aisha was actually older when she married the Prophet (peace be upon him).
Then, I found something on a forum somewhere (can't remember where now) and since I didn't have the time to read it then, I copied and pasted it into a word document which I have only now just read. It contains the bit I mentioned about Asmaa as well as various other points. It's quite interesting.
Anyway, here it is:Was Ayesha A Six-Year-Old Bride?
The Ancient Myth Exposed
by T.O. Shanavas
A Christian friend asked me once, “Will you marry your seven year old daughter to a fifty year old man?” I kept my silence. He continued, “If you would not, how can you approve the marriage of an innocent seven year old, Ayesha, with your Prophet?” I told him, “I don’t have an answer to your question at this time.” My friend smiled and left me with a thorn in the heart of my faith. Most Muslims answer that such marriages were accepted in those days. Otherwise, people would have objected to Prophet’s marriage with Ayesha.
However, such an explanation would be gullible only for those who are naive enough to believe it. But unfortunately, I was not satisfied with the answer.
The Prophet was an exemplary man. All his actions were most virtuous so that we, Muslims, can emulate them. However, most people in our Islamic Center of Toledo, including me, would not think of betrothing our seven years daughter to a fifty-two year-old man. If a parent agrees to such a wedding, most people, if not all, would look down upon the father and the old husband.
In 1923, registrars of marriage in Egypt were instructed not to register and issue official certificates of marriage for brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years of age. Eight years later, the Law of the Organization and Procedure of Sheriah courts of 1931 consolidated the above provision by not hearing the marriage disputes involving brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years old. (Women in Muslim Family Law, John Esposito, 1982). It shows that even in the Muslim majority country of Egypt the child marriages are unacceptable.
So, I believed, without solid evidence other than my reverence to my Prophet, that the stories of the marriage of seven-year-old Ayesha to 50-year-old Prophet are only myths. However, my long pursuit in search of the truth on this matter proved my intuition correct. My Prophet was a gentleman. And he did not marry an innocent seven or nine year old girl. The age of Ayesha has been erroneously reported in the hadith literature. Furthermore, I think that the narratives reporting this event are highly unreliable. Some of the hadith (traditions of the Prophet) regarding Ayesha’s age at the time of her wedding with prophet are problematic. I present the following evidences against the acceptance of the fictitious story by Hisham ibn ‘Urwah and to clear the name of my Prophet as an irresponsible old man preying on an innocent little girl.
EVIDENCE #1: Reliability of Source
Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported. It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas. The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life.
Tehzibu’l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: “He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq” (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50).
It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people in Iraq: “I have been told that Malik objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq” (Tehzi’b u’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50).
Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports: “When he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly” (Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu’l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301).
CONCLUSION: Based on these references, Hisham’s memory was failing and his narratives while in Iraq were unreliable. So, his narrative of Ayesha’s marriage and age are unreliable.
CHRONOLOGY: It is vital also to keep in mind some of the pertinent dates in the history of Islam:
• pre-610 CE: Jahiliya (pre-Islamic age) before revelation
• 610 CE: First revelation
• 610 CE: AbuBakr accepts Islam
• 613 CE: Prophet Muhammad begins preaching publicly.
• 615 CE: Emigration to Abyssinia
• 616 CE: Umar bin al Khattab accepts Islam
• 620 CE: Generally accepted betrothal of Ayesha to the Prophet
• 622 CE: Hijrah (emigation to Yathrib, later renamed Medina)
• 623/624 CE: Generally accepted year of Ayesha living with the Prophet
EVIDENCE #2: The Betrothal
According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah, Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Ayesha was betrothed at seven years of age and began to cohabit with the Prophet at the age of nine years.
However, in another work, Al-Tabari says: “All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives during the pre-Islamic period” (Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 4, p. 50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).
If Ayesha was betrothed in 620 CE (at the age of seven) and started to live with the Prophet in 624 CE (at the age of nine), that would indicate that she was born in 613 CE and was nine when she began living with the Prophet. Therefore, based on one account of Al-Tabari, the numbers show that Ayesha must have born in 613 CE, three years after the beginning of revelation (610 CE). Tabari also states that Ayesha was born in the pre-Islamic era (in Jahiliya). If she was born before 610 CE, she would have been at least 14 years old when she began living with the Prophet. Essentially, Tabari contradicts himself.
CONCLUSION: Al-Tabari is unreliable in the matter of determining Ayesha’s age.
EVIDENCE # 3: The Age of Ayesha in Relation to the Age of Fatima
According to Ibn Hajar, “Fatima was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet was 35 years old... she was five years older that Ayesha” (Al-isabah fi tamyizi’l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol. 4, p. 377, Maktabatu’l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978).
If Ibn Hajar’s statement is factual, Ayesha was born when the Prophet was 40 years old. If Ayesha was married to the Prophet when he was 52 years old, Ayesha’s age at marriage would be 12 years.
CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar, Tabari an Ibn Hisham and Ibn Humbal contradict each other. So, the marriage of Ayesha at seven years of age is a myth.
EVIDENCE #4: Ayesha’s Age in relation to Asma’s Age
According to Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d: “Asma was 10 years older than Ayesha (Siyar A`la’ma’l-nubala’, Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, p. 289, Arabic, Mu’assasatu’l-risalah, Beirut, 1992).
According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by 10 years” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 371, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933).
According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [73 AH], as we have already mentioned, and five days later she herself died. According to other narratives, she died not after five days but 10 or 20, or a few days over 20, or 100 days later. The most well known narrative is that of 100 days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old.” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 372, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)
According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani: “She [Asma] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH.” (Taqribu’l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, p. 654, Arabic, Bab fi’l-nisa’, al-harfu’l-alif, Lucknow).
According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha was 10 years older than Ayesha. If Asma was 100 years old in 73 AH, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of the hijrah.
If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old. Thus, Ayesha, being 17 or 18 years of at the time of Hijra, she started to cohabit with the Prophet between at either 19 to 20 years of age.
Based on Hajar, Ibn Katir, and Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d, Ayesha’s age at the time she began living with the Prophet would be 19 or 20. In Evidence # 3, Ibn Hajar suggests that Ayesha was 12 years old and in Evidence #4 he contradicts himself with a 17 or 18-year-old Ayesha. What is the correct age, twelve or eighteen?
CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar is an unreliable source for Ayesha’s age.
EVIDENCE #5: The Battles of Badr and Uhud
A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in Badr is given in the hadith of Muslim, (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab karahiyati’l-isti`anah fi’l-ghazwi bikafir). Ayesha, while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says: “when we reached Shajarah”. Obviously, Ayesha was with the group travelling towards Badr. A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in the Battle of Uhud is given in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab Ghazwi’l-nisa’ wa qitalihinna ma`a’lrijal): “Anas reports that on the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet. [On that day,] I saw Ayesha and Umm-i-Sulaim, they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hindrance in their movement].” Again, this indicates that Ayesha was present in the Battles of Uhud and Badr.
It is narrated in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi, Bab Ghazwati’l-khandaq wa hiya’l-ahza’b): “Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation.”
Based on the above narratives, (a) the children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the Battle of Uhud, and (b) Ayesha participated in the Battles of Badr and Uhud
CONCLUSION: Ayesha’s participation in the Battles of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine years old but at least 15 years old. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden on them. This account is another contradiction regarding Ayesha’s age.
EVIDENCE #6: Surat al-Qamar (The Moon)
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha was born about eight years before hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari, Ayesha is reported to have said: “I was a young girl (jariyah in Arabic)” when Surah Al-Qamar was revealed (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu’l-tafsir, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa’l-sa`atu adha’ wa amarr).
Chapter 54 of the Quran was revealed eight years before hijrah (The Bounteous Koran, M.M. Khatib, 1985), indicating that it was revealed in 614 CE. If Ayesha started living with the Prophet at the age of nine in 623 CE or 624 CE, she was a newborn infant (sibyah in Arabic) at the time that Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon) was revealed. According to the above tradition, Ayesha was actually a young girl, not an infant in the year of revelation of Al-Qamar. Jariyah means young playful girl (Lane’s Arabic English Lexicon). So, Ayesha, being a jariyah not a sibyah (infant), must be somewhere between 6-13 years old at the time of revelation of Al-Qamar, and therefore must have been 14-21 years at the time she married the Prophet.
CONCLUSION: This tradition also contradicts the marriage of Ayesha at the age of nine.
EVIDENCE #7: Arabic Terminology
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of the Prophet’s first wife Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in mind. Khaulah said: “You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)”. When the Prophet asked the identity of the bikr (virgin), Khaulah mentioned Ayesha’s name.
All those who know the Arabic language are aware that the word bikr in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year-old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier, is jariyah. Bikr on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady without conjugal experience prior to marriage, as we understand the word “virgin” in English. Therefore, obviously a nine-year-old girl is not a “lady” (bikr) (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. .210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).
CONCLUSION: The literal meaning of the word, bikr (virgin), in the above hadith is “adult woman with no sexual experience prior to marriage.” Therefore, Ayesha was an adult woman at the time of her marriage.
EVIDENCE #8. The Qur’anic Text
All Muslims agree that the Quran is the book of guidance. So, we need to seek the guidance from the Quran to clear the smoke and confusion created by the eminent men of the classical period of Islam in the matter of Ayesha’s age at her marriage. Does the Quran allow or disallow marriage of an immature child of seven years of age?
There are no verses that explicitly allow such marriage. There is a verse, however, that guides Muslims in their duty to raise an orphaned child. The Quran’s guidance on the topic of raising orphans is also valid in the case of our own children. The verse states: “And make not over your property (property of the orphan), which Allah had made a (means of) support for you, to the weak of understanding, and maintain them out of it, clothe them and give them good education. And test them until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find them maturity of intellect, make over them their property...” (Quran, 4:5-6).
In the matter of children who have lost a parent, a Muslim is ordered to (a) feed them, (b) clothe them, (c) educate them, and (d) test them for maturity “until the age of marriage” before entrusting them with management of finances.
Here the Quranic verse demands meticulous proof of their intellectual and physical maturity by objective test results before the age of marriage in order to entrust their property to them.
In light of the above verses, no responsible Muslim would hand over financial management to a seven- or nine-year-old immature girl. If we cannot trust a seven-year-old to manage financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage. Ibn Hambal (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hambal, vol.6, p. 33 and 99) claims that nine-year-old Ayesha was rather more interested in playing with toy-horses than taking up the responsible task of a wife. It is difficult to believe, therefore, that AbuBakr, a great believer among Muslims, would betroth his immature seven-year-old daughter to the 50-year-old Prophet. Equally difficult to imagine is that the Prophet would marry an immature seven-year-old girl.
Another important duty demanded from the guardian of a child is to educate them. Let us ask the question, “How many of us believe that we can educate our children satisfactorily before they reach the age of seven or nine years?” The answer is none. Logically, it is an impossible task to educate a child satisfactorily before the child attains the age of seven. Then, how can we believe that Ayesha was educated satisfactorily at the claimed age of seven at the time of her marriage?
AbuBakr was a more judicious man than all of us. So, he definitely would have judged that Ayesha was a child at heart and was not satisfactorily educated as demanded by the Quran. He would not have married her to anyone. If a proposal of marrying the immature and yet to be educated seven-year-old Ayesha came to the Prophet, he would have rejected it outright because neither the Prophet nor AbuBakr would violate any clause in the Quran.
CONCLUSION: The marriage of Ayesha at the age of seven years would violate the maturity clause or requirement of the Quran. Therefore, the story of the marriage of the seven-year-old immature Ayesha is a myth.
EVIDENCE #9: Consent in Marriage
A women must be consulted and must agree in order to make a marriage valid (Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p. 665). Islamically, credible permission from women is a prerequisite for a marriage to be valid.
By any stretch of the imagination, the permission given by an immature seven-year-old girl cannot be valid authorization for marriage.
It is inconceivable that AbuBakr, an intelligent man, would take seriously the permission of a seven-year-old girl to marry a 50-year-old man.
Similarly, the Prophet would not have accepted the permission given by a girl who, according to the hadith of Muslim, took her toys with her when she went live with Prophet.
CONCLUSION: The Prophet did not marry a seven-year-old Ayesha because it would have violated the requirement of the valid permission clause of the Islamic Marriage Decree. Therefore, the Prophet married an intellectually and physically mature lady Ayesha.
SUMMARY:
It was neither an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as seven or nine years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.
Obviously, the narrative of the marriage of nine-year-old Ayesha by Hisham ibn `Urwah cannot be held true when it is contradicted by many other reported narratives. Moreover, there is absolutely no reason to accept the narrative of Hisham ibn `Urwah as true when other scholars, including Malik ibn Anas, view his narrative while in Iraq, as unreliable. The quotations from Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim show they contradict each other regarding Ayesha’s age. Furthermore, many of these scholars contradict themselves in their own records. Thus, the narrative of Ayesha’s age at the time of the marriage is not reliable due to the clear contradictions seen in the works of classical scholars of Islam.
Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha’s age is accepted as true when there are adequate grounds to reject it as myth. Moreover, the Quran rejects the marriage of immature girls and boys as well as entrusting them with responsibilities.
T.O. Shanavas is a physician based in Michigan. This article first appeared in The Minaret in March 1999.
This T.Q. guy makes a pretty strong argument.
Anyway, the other argument (which may also be true... God knows) is that it's unfair to judge the circumstances of back then by how things are today and that a 9/12 year old girl then was more mature and ready for marriage than a 9/12 year old girl now. It's worth remembering that Osama bin Zaid (not bin Laden), was a military leader of the Muslim armies at the age of 18 showing how he must have been mature enough to perform such a task. A task I couldn't imagine giving an 18-year old today.
Here's a link for the second argument:
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016558
As I said, I'm more convinced by the first one (that Aisha was older than reported), especially due to evidence #8 from the above article.
As to how such things may leak into the hadith (traditions/sayings of the Prophet), God knows really. They could have been planted there on purpose (as it is by Islamic scholars all over the world that some hadith were fabricated by enemies of Islam).
Since writing the below comment, I have since realised that it was not correct to use a Jewish book to clarify a verse from the Bible from a Christian standpoint. Please see my post
For example, the Bible contains texts referring to the allowance of having sexual intercourse with 3 year old girls and telling parents to do certain things to prove the virginity of their daughter which I'd rather not go into detail about here. Do I believe that these are the words of God? Certainly not! Although I do believe that the Bible contains the words of God in there, I'm certain that these are not some of them.
So, the corruption of texts can happen and it's no secret that Muslims don't accept the hadith as a whole to be infallible. Only the Quran is considered infallible by Muslims. That's not to say that we shouldn't accept hadith as sources of Islamic text. Just that we have to be wary and do our research. T.Q. sets forward a good example.0 -
Is it fair to say that there are scholars who are just as adamant in the other direction, and state clearly like in this articleAccording to trustworthy scholars, authentic reports proved that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) married `A’ishah, Mother of the Faithful (may Allah be pleased with her) when she was nine years old. I have never come across a reference that contradicts that.
That said, I think PDN needs to reflect on whether Christianity actually offers any clarity on this point. Judging from the article linked above, the essential Islamic view (as set out by that scholar) seems to be that puberty is the threshold for marriage – someone physically capable of being a parent is potentially eligible. I’m not sure that Christianity is much different and certainly the Catholic Church facilitated early marriage in the Traveller community in Ireland up to quite recently (I don’t know the position today).
Finally, when we consider news of Britney’s sister, all we can say is there’s a lot of it about, despite its undesirability.0 -
That said, I think PDN needs to reflect on whether Christianity actually offers any clarity on this point. Judging from the article linked above, the essential Islamic view (as set out by that scholar) seems to be that puberty is the threshold for marriage – someone physically capable of being a parent is potentially eligible. I’m not sure that Christianity is much different and certainly the Catholic Church facilitated early marriage in the Traveller community in Ireland up to quite recently (I don’t know the position today).
Finally, when we consider news of Britney’s sister, all we can say is there’s a lot of it about, despite its undesirability.
I was simply being helpful since a poster had asked if the Quran or Hadith had anything to say on the matter.
I think you will find unsavoury cultural practices among any group (including the Irish). I would see little point in discussing practices on these fora that occur among cultures where the majority of inhabitants happen to be Muslim, Christian or any other religion. However, if the religions in question are seen as providing legitimacy for such practices then it becomes, in my fallible opinion, a suitable subject for discussion.0 -
Maybe the Christianity forum is probably the more appropriate venue for that particular discussion?0
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Whatever about the ability of a child to consent to such a marriage, are such marriages consummated, shall I say, promptly or not.
Do I have it right that once a girl has reached puberty that such societies consider them of marraigeable age?0 -
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Do I have it right that once a girl has reached puberty that such societies consider them of marraigeable age?
Some societies do sadly believe this still to this day.
I know most Muslim countries have an age of consent for marriage which is far greater than 11 as shown in the picture. I believe in Afghanistan that the age of consent is actually 16, so what your seeing is illegal under Afghan law. The problem is that either the government isn't enforcing this or are unable to, and considering the state of the Afghan government, its probably a bit of both.0 -
the_new_mr wrote: »As I said, I'm more convinced by the first one (that Aisha was older than reported), especially due to evidence #8 from the above article.
As to how such things may leak into the hadith (traditions/sayings of the Prophet), God knows really. They could have been planted there on purpose (as it is by Islamic scholars all over the world that some hadith were fabricated by enemies of Islam). For example, the Bible contains texts referring to the allowance of having sexual intercourse with 3 year old girls and telling parents to do certain things to prove the virginity of their daughter which I'd rather not go into detail about here. Do I believe that these are the words of God? Certainly not! Although I do believe that the Bible contains the words of God in there, I'm certain that these are not some of them.
So, the corruption of texts can happen and it's no secret that Muslims don't accept the hadith as a whole to be infallible. Only the Quran is considered infallible by Muslims. That's not to say that we shouldn't accept hadith as sources of Islamic text. Just that we have to be wary and do our research. T.Q. sets forward a good example.
I would be interested to know where abouts in the bible you found that.0 -
izzyflusky wrote: »I would be interested to know where abouts in the bible you found that.
Of course he didn't find it in the Bible. I would hazard a guess that the-new-mr skimmed through a propaganda website and failed to note that the reference was to the Babylonian Talmud rather than to the Bible.
Would a false and scurrilous assertion about a holy book be viewed as blasphemy in Islamic teaching?0 -
Since writing the below comment, I have found that it was not correct to use a Jewish book to clarify a verse from the Bible from a Christian standpoint. Please see my postizzyflusky wrote:I would be interested to know where abouts in the bible you found that.PDN wrote:Would a false and scurrilous assertion about a holy book be viewed as blasphemy in Islamic teaching?
This is not the place for it and I didn't want to go into it but, since you asked, I'll answer but if anyone wants to discuss it further, I suggest heading on over to Schuhart's thread.
Deuteronomy 22:13-20 (New International Version)
"13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you. "
Elaboration from Talmud:"A cloth of less than 3 square finger-breadths. (From the Talmud, Eruvin 29b-30a and Succah 16a)"
Numbers 31:17-18 (New International Version)
"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
Elaboration from Talmud:
Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility [M.Nid. 5:4].
Sanhedrin 7/55B
R. Nahman bar Isaac said. "They made the decree that a gentile child should be deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15], so that an Israelite child should not hang around with him and commit pederasty [as he does]."
For said R. Zira, "I had much anguish with R. Assi, and R. Assi with R. Yohanan, and R. Yohanan with R. Yannai, and R. Yannai with R. Nathan b. Amram, and R. Nathan b. Amram with Rabbi [on this matter]: 'From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]'? And he said to me, 'On the day on which he is born.' But when I came to R. Hiyya, he said to me, 'From the age of nine years and one day.' And when I came and laid the matter before Rabbi, he said to me, 'Discard my reply and adopt that of R. Hiyya, who declared, "From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]? From the age of nine years and one day."'
[37A] Since he is then suitable for having sexual relations, he also is deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [of Lev.15]."
Said Rabina, "Therefore a gentile girl who is three years and one day old, since she is then suitable to have sexual relations, also imparts uncleanness of the flux variety."
That is self-evident!
Abodah Zarah 36B-37A0 -
the_new_mr wrote: »It's a sin if it's false alright. But not if it's not. It does exist in the Bible and is elaborated on in the Talmud (Jewish scripture).
It does not exist in the Bible. The Bible does not mention intercourse with 3 year olds and does not mention any ways of a parent testing their daughter's virginity other than waving around a blood-stained bedsheet after a marriage was consummated. You are committing blasphemy against a holy book and therefore sinning according to the teaching of your own religion.
The Babylonian Talmud is not part of the Bible and therefore has no validity in this discussion. Imagine if I made a flat declaration that the Quran taught something (something that is not mentioned in the Quran) and then sought to prove my case by quoting another book entirely that said stuff about the Quran. You would, quite rightly, be outraged at such lies. And your foul, offensive and untrue slander against the Bible is highly offensive to Christians.
Either show where the Bible (not some other Jewish book) sanctions intercourse with 3 year olds and tells fathers to do unmentionable things to their children, or withdraw your statement.This is not the place for it and I didn't want to go into it but, since you asked, I'll answer but if anyone wants to discuss it further, I suggest heading on over to Schuhart's thread.
May I remind you of your own charter:3. The following is NOT ALLOWED. You will be temp banned with a possible outright permanent ban posting any of these subjects. ...
* Converts. This applies to all sides.
* Garbage (eg. muslim = suicide bomber, telling people they are brainwashed).
* Any offensive posts.
* Attacks on other posters (always attack the post, not the poster)
* Attacks or belittling any religon (sic).
]4. You are free to ask questions, however if you make accusations you will be expected to back them up with facts especially if you are asked to (even if it is later proven to show those facts are flawed then that is acceptable). Refusing to back up your accusations will result in a warning then a ban.0 -
PDN, aren't there several versions of the Bible?!? There are also different translation by different Christian groups as well.0
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PDN, aren't there several versions of the Bible?!? There are also different translation by different Christian groups as well.
There are many translations of the Bible. However, each translation can only translate what the Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament) says. There is no Bible translation or version that refers to intercourse with 3 year olds because it is not in the Hebrew or Greek text.0 -
There are many translations of the Bible. However, each translation can only translate what the Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament) says. There is no Bible translation or version that refers to intercourse with 3 year olds because it is not in the Hebrew or Greek text.
Fair enough.0 -
It appears that the_new_mr has beef with Judaism to sort out. Nothing of the scriptures of Christianity suggests this.0
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It does not exist in the Bible. The Bible does not mention intercourse with 3 year olds and does not mention any ways of a parent testing their daughter's virginity other than waving around a blood-stained bedsheet after a marriage was consummated.
Depends a lot on how you read it and what bible you are reading. I recommend this site.
http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-13.htm
http://bible.cc/numbers/31-17.htm
It shows you all bible translations and versions.And your foul, offensive and untrue slander against the Bible is highly offensive to Christians.
Actually I checked both quotes on a number of translations of the bibles (links above) and the the first one is correct.
The second one was modified but initially comes from the Hebrew. So thanks for clarifying that. I don't see how his post is an intentional attack or intentionally offensive. If anything it helped you to rectify a potential misunderstanding.May I remind you of your own charter:
Yes thanks for that, no need to back seat mod. If you have an issue with a post report it (I didn't see any?). But point was he made a comment, suggested it was better suited for another forum.When asked for proof he displayed it (even though it may be wrong/incorrect/mistaken). At which point if you want to continue it I really think the Christianity forum would be a better place for it. You would have more people familiar with those passages.
Never banned a mod before, not sure its even possible but the_new_mr knows I'd try.
[edit] nope, can't ban a mod. However if people have issue with any mod you are free to take the case to the admins in the helpdesk forum (only mods can respond) or the feedback forum.
Can I ask people know the drill and keep it on topic. If you have something to ask the_new_mr please use private messages, or if it is related to a particular subject pick the right thread. Thanks.0 -
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Depends a lot on how you read it and what bible you are reading. I recommend this site.
http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-13.htm
http://bible.cc/numbers/31-17.htm
It shows you all bible translations and versions.I don't see how his post is an intentional attack or intentionally offensive.When asked for proof he displayed it (even though it may be wrong/incorrect/mistaken).However if people have issue with any mod you are free to take the case to the admins in the helpdesk forum (only mods can respond) or the feedback forum.0 -
The point is surely that those quotes don’t seem to say that its OK to have sexual relations with a three year old
From what I could find is your correct in relation to the Bible. It appears (from what I can see) is the_new_mr was reading the Talmud.I feel the issue is clearly not whether the supplied biblical quotes are accurate
Hence the reason to discuss in a forum which would have a better knowledge of the Bible.Surely that should read even though it is wrong/incorrect/mistaken.Indeed
Well I was just referring to comments in general, but yes I believe you are correct from what research I've done so far.this is just a case of a loose post needing to be pursued.
Well my take from it is that the_new_mr may of misread it at one point and taken it at that face value. We see a lot of this coming towards Islam, so I don't see why it can't happen the other way. Of course the forums were created to help break some of these misunderstandings.
Also despite what people believe being a moderator doesn't bestow you with arcane knowledge or make you infallible.
As for TNM he is probably not online. He does respond when he is.0 -
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It would seem that using the Talmud to elaborate on a verse in the Old Testament was not satisfactory for some people since it is a Jewish book and doesn't count as a Christian source.
I incorrectly thought that an elaboration on a verse that comes from books of the Old Testament and shared by both Judaism and Christianity (as both Numbers and Deuteronomy are) would count towards the interpretation of such verses. On reflection, I guess it's not right to use the books of one religion to elaborate on the verses of another despite the common ground that exists with respect to the verses.
And so I would like to apologise to anyone who I may have upset. I think everybody here knows by now that I try to be as sincere as possible as much as I can. I'm not perfect so you shall have to excuse this mistake.
Anyway, my point in all this was that not everything in Bible is 100% the word of God (as most Christians accept) and not every hadith is 100% correct either (as all Muslims accept).Jakkass wrote:It appears that the_new_mr has beef with Judaism to sort out. Nothing of the scriptures of Christianity suggests this.
Once again, apologies for any hurt caused.0 -
Bear in mind that Christians see Christianity as the fulfillment of Judaism, making it very much a Christian source in understanding the development of Judeo-Christian thought.
Also the Talmud was written thousands of years after the Torah. Who's to say that that interpretation is completely right?the_new_mr wrote:Anyway, my point in all this was that not everything in Bible is 100% the word of God (as most Christians accept)
Yes, and no. This is not as easy as saying that it isn't the word of God as it is divinely inspired. Namely that the Holy Spirit dwellt inside the writers when they were doing this. The Holy Spirit though is part of the Trinity and is a part of the Godhead. So yes in a sense it is God's word.0 -
the_new_mr wrote: »Anyway, my point in all this was that not everything in Bible is 100% the word of God (as most Christians accept) and not every hadith is 100% correct either (as all Muslims accept).
Once again, apologies for any hurt caused.
Thank you for reconsidering your earlier statement.
A better parallel, IMHO, would be to compare the Christian view of the Bible with the Islamic view of the Quran - ie as God's Word. I, like millions of other Christians, see the Bible as being 100% correct.0 -
PDN wrote:A better parallel, IMHO, would be to compare the Christian view of the Bible with the Islamic view of the Quran - ie as God's Word. I, like millions of other Christians, see the Bible as being 100% correct.
And please don't take this the wrong way but I'm a little curious as to how you explain contradictions of fact in the Bible? Maybe another thread for the Christianity forum?
I don't want anyone to think I'm attacking the Bible or anything. Just asking.Jakkass wrote:Bear in mind that Christians see Christianity as the fulfillment of Judaism, making it very much a Christian source in understanding the development of Judeo-Christian thought.
Also the Talmud was written thousands of years after the Torah. Who's to say that that interpretation is completely right?
Once again, apologies for hurt caused.0 -
the_new_mr wrote: »And please don't take this the wrong way but I'm a little curious as to how you explain contradictions of fact in the Bible? Maybe another thread for the Christianity forum?
That probably is one for the Christianity forum - but suffice to say that Christian scholars harmonise alleged contradictions in the Bible in pretty much the same way as Muslim scholars harmonise alleged contradictions in the Quran (appeal to context etc.)
Just google "contradictions Quran" and then "contradictions Bible" and keep following the links, if you're interested. The results and responses are fascinatingly similar.0 -
the_new_mr wrote:And please don't take this the wrong way but I'm a little curious as to how you explain contradictions of fact in the Bible? Maybe another thread for the Christianity forum?
Depends on whether you would allow similar questioning of the Qur'an in this forum.0 -
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