nothing we don't know already, but......

L1011

Holland is listed already - "Netherlands", UK would distort the average upwards by nearly 4c if added, they're both still EU15 countries.

You can't compare fuel prices here to the accession countries, as with the exception of Slovenia they're skinted, basically.

I could have filled up at 114.9 today in Tesco, or yesterday in some no-brander in Galway, the average on my drive to Galway yesterday was 116.9 or so. I'd say were closer to 10c below average, not 6.

Either way, the point that the rest of the EU15 doesn't generally have our levels of fuel duties - as the parent poster was implying they were high - standards. They have higher levels...

Seth Brundle

Re Holland - Im going blind.
WRT the current prices - the prices I linked to are for Nov.

E92

trellheim wrote: »

which is even more Europhile than Fianna Fail :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

And this has absolutely nothing to do with what the OP was talking about. Cantdecide said:

cantdecide wrote:

This is always the case. I think I would vote FF in again but there must be a way of effectively protesting against the victimisation of the Irish motorist.

Now explain to me what this has got to do with Fine Gael and Europe?

About the only thing that would persuade me to vote for the treaty is the idea that if I vote no I am voting the way the Shinners want me to vote. I cringe at the idea of voting with the commies on something. I despise them, but I'm going to bite the bullet and vote no.

junkyard

Tbh the shinners know there's going to be a big no vote and want to be seen to be on the peoples side and some people will actually think they mightn't be such a bad lot after all.

Gandalf23

ninty9er wrote: »

SF are the only party encouraging a no vote, mainly becase there's publicity to be had out of it....the treaty just cconsolidates the existing bureaucracy to make it more workable...voting no because of VRT will do nothing to further the VRT cause. In fact we're probably going to end up a lower motoring tax nation from next July than a good 30% of EU countries.

So while I haven't yet decided which way I'm going to vote...my decision won't be based on any domestic issues as that would be plain stupid and stooping to the French level of intelligence!!

So if "we're probably going to end up a lower motoring tax nation from next July than a good 30% of EU countries" that would mean we are a higher motoring tax nation than 70% of EU countries? Phew, I was worried we were being ripped off there ... (another glowing example of FF spin and " smoke and daggers").

Your remark about the French is racist and offensive. But I suppose the picture in your sig explains your attitudes ...

ninty9er

Gandalf23 wrote: »

So if "we're probably going to end up a lower motoring tax nation from next July than a good 30% of EU countries" that would mean we are a higher motoring tax nation than 70% of EU countries? Phew, I was worried we were being ripped off there ... (another glowing example of FF spin and " smoke and daggers").

so being 1% higher than we'll say France would agrieve you???

God help you...have you considere that the average industrial wage in this country is higher than 70% of the countries.
An absolute measurement counts for nothing!

Get real...we're a sparsely populated country whose politicians of all denominations have to put up with the most unsupportive public outside of France and Italy...and even only marginally the Italians. The tax burden on th individual is waaaay too low in this country for the area:population ratio.

I suggest you go and live in high rise in Germany and pay their local and national taxes....at least the Autobähne aren't tolled!!

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Your remark about the French is racist and offensive. But I suppose the picture in your sig explains your attitudes ...

Well, in a country where they burn other people's property when the president who was elected on the platform of economic reform wanted to make them work 30 minutes extra per day and reform working practice. Imagine...the cheek of him to do what he said he would!!

Gandalf23

ninty9er wrote: »

so being 1% higher than we'll say France would agrieve you???

Well actually yes it would. I'm sick of paying over the EU average for everything in this country.

ninty9er wrote: »

Get real...we're a sparsely populated country whose politicians of all denominations have to put up with the most unsupportive public outside of France and Italy...and even only marginally the Italians. The tax burden on th individual is waaaay too low in this country for the area:population ratio.

Its terrible that our politicians have to put up with us. Poor babies, and sure they hardly even get paid enough for the job ...

ninty9er wrote: »

So while I haven't yet decided which way I'm going to vote...my decision won't be based on any domestic issues as that would be plain stupid and stooping to the French level of intelligence!!

Your original quote was racist, disgusting and highly offensive. That someone would make a comment like that says a lot about them. Its even worse that you try to justify what you said by generalizing about an entire nation ... you would have apologised unreservedly if you had any moral courage. Would you have made the same remark about the Jews? Or travelers? Or Nigerians? I doubt it ...

Riskymove

E92 wrote: »

I'm voting no too because the rest of Europe's political leaders don't have the balls to put it to their people.

The reason the Government will have a referendum here is because they have to under our constitutional framework...if they did not have to they would not either!!

cantdecide

cantdecide wrote: »

there must be a way of effectively protesting against the victimisation of the Irish motorist.

You can't judge one of the most successful governments we've ever had on their attitude to one topic alone.

I grew up poor in the 80s and in my relatively short life I've seen the country pass a point of no return in terms of quality of life mainly because of FF. I'm not their number one fan- I just think they've done more right than wrong and generally speaking they're the best of a bad bunch. It doesn't follow that everyone who voted against them this time was a car lover and everyone who voted for them was a cyclist.

I just want them to leave the motorists alone- they're cooking the books by making it seem we are a low tax country by heaping it all onto the motorists. Particularly the ones with enough cash for a new car- it's as scandalous as the window tax but I can't vote for individual policies- I can only vote for the whole show unfortunately.

E92

Here goes more nonsense. FF are "the best of a bad bunch". What utter nonsense. Have you "conviently":rolleyes: forgotten which Government brought our inflation level to a record low 1.5%? Or which government was creating 1,000 new jobs per week? Or which Government introduced the 10% Corporation tax rate?

Oh wait that was a Fine Gael and Labour Government.(the 94-97 one) is job creation and sound economuic management of the economy not important at all? Is that not what it takes for there to be "the best of a bad bunch"?

FF have had it so easy for the economy, because FG+Lab handed them an economy that was in tip top condition and no matter how hard anyone could have tried it would have been impossible to balls up.

What happened under FF? Mysteriously the economy always seems to take a nose dive after an election. We have cutbacks and then low and behold the economy always manages to be in fighting form and they have the biggest giveaway budgets right before an election. Never after. Things always get tough after an election. There are no standards, no accountability no nothing from this present government. "Experience" my backside.

What people choose to remember(this selective memory thing is great, I wish I could do it) about them is the 80s, and nobody not even me is going to defend the economic performance of the 80s. Nobody is going to defend the tax on childrens shoes for instance. However FF when they were in power in the 80s were just as reckless then as now. We needed to tighten our belts they said. Except for them of course. Back in the 40s and 50s when they were in power things were tough then too. FF had a spending bonanza before the elections in the 82 elections IIRC and the countrys finances were in dire straights. Hence why the FG+Lab Govt of the 80s were so tight. They had nothing to spend. They could borrow and put the country into further debt i suppose but that wouldn't have been very sound management of an economy now would it?

cjt156

Have to agree with cantdecide; I remember the 70's and 80's and, believe me kids, you think you have it rough now?
You have never been so wealthy, so fully employed and so low-taxed. And, while I despise much of what FF has done behind closed doors in the past, there is no way I would trust Enda charisma-bypass and Pat purple-faced-blow-hard Rabbitte at the helm of this economy.

Gandalf23

ninty9er wrote: »

So while I haven't yet decided which way I'm going to vote...my decision won't be based on any domestic issues as that would be plain stupid and stooping to the French level of intelligence!!

I've been thinking about this particular post and I'm still shocked by its ignorant racist content and tone. I have relatives in France and they are far from stupid. This comment meets most of the widely accepted definitions of racism, and should not be tolerated in this or any other moderated forum.

I would now like to ask one of the mods to ban the poster according to the charter as posted by mbannon as follows ... "abusive comments in posts will result in a warning and then a good hard banning. If a moderator feels that it is warranted then a ban may apply following just one such comment". I believe a banning is warrented in this case as the poster has had an opportunity to either withdraw the comment or apologise, neither of which he has done.

Racist comment of this type should not be tolerated.

Suggestion for the poster ... find your good buddy Conor Lenihan and you and him can enjoy a few laughs and a "kebab" or two as you browse the National Front or BNP forums ...

jmayo

cjt156 wrote: »

Have to agree with cantdecide; I remember the 70's and 80's and, believe me kids, you think you have it rough now?
You have never been so wealthy, so fully employed and so low-taxed. And, while I despise much of what FF has done behind closed doors in the past, there is no way I would trust Enda charisma-bypass and Pat purple-faced-blow-hard Rabbitte at the helm of this economy.

Well cjt156 you will soon find out how great the economy is?

I also remember the 1980s when only some people could afford to run cars nevermind buy new ones.
People that could afford new cars didn't buy fancy cars, they bought cheap reliable cars i.e. VW, Toyota and Fords (which had questionable reliability).
The ones that couldn't afford those brands bought Ladas and then lived to regret it.

We didn't buy convertibles, 4x4s, Alfas that broke every other day.
We bought reliablility and small engines because that was all people could afford.

When the residential property construction levels plummets next year watch how great a job bertie and the boys make of the economy.
Then people might actually cop on to fact that the current economy is built on quick sand.
Over the last 5 years they have been lucky.
Yes lucky due to cheap credit supply and a nation of eejits willing to pay above and beyond the real value for shoebox properties in the ar**hole of nowhere.
What else has been going on over last 5 years ?
Oh yes we have been building shopping centres and fancy furniture shops.
Take a look at how many people you see in any of these furniture shops.

I believe the future for this country is very bleak so on a car note I am looking forward to picking up a cheap BMW.

ninty9er

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I've been thinking about this particular post and I'm still shocked by its ignorant racist content and tone. I have relatives in France and they are far from stupid. This comment meets most of the widely accepted definitions of racism, and should not be tolerated in this or any other moderated forum.

I would now like to ask one of the mods to ban the poster according to the charter as posted by mbannon as follows ... "abusive comments in posts will result in a warning and then a good hard banning. If a moderator feels that it is warranted then a ban may apply following just one such comment". I believe a banning is warrented in this case as the poster has had an opportunity to either withdraw the comment or apologise, neither of which he has done.

Racist comment of this type should not be tolerated.

Suggestion for the poster ... find your good buddy Conor Lenihan and you and him can enjoy a few laughs and a "kebab" or two as you browse the National Front or BNP forums ...

I've qualified what I said about the French and believe it or not I think the mentality of a nation whereby the amounts of people participating in riots because of social issues (ironic isn't it) is that large has a poor international image. I'm not saying your relatives conform to that, but just like the Irish are a nation of whingers, I would consider the French to be a nation of unintelligent rioters.

If you can come on here and slag 80,000 people who make up a party basing it on 100, maybe 150 public reps you don't like, then I'm damn well en titled to hold the opinion I do on the French mentality.

Even the OP suggested we "do a Frenchie on it" are you going to report him too, because I'm certainly reporting you for outright calling me a racist, which is personal abuse on this forum. Maybe you should read the charter a little better next time you go looking for sticks to beat people with!


I have no issue with individual French people, I do have an issue with their collective national mentality!

And I will NOT be apologising or withdrawing my comment!

cornbb

ninty9er wrote: »

I've qualified what I said about the French and believe it or not I think the mentality of a nation whereby the amounts of people participating in riots because of social issues (ironic isn't it) is that large has a poor international image. I'm not saying your relatives conform to that, but just like the Irish are a nation of whingers, I would consider the French to be a nation of unintelligent rioters.

If you can come on here and slag 80,000 people who make up a party basing it on 100, maybe 150 public reps you don't like, then I'm damn well en titled to hold the opinion I do on the French mentality.

Even the OP suggested we "do a Frenchie on it" are you going to report him too, because I'm certainly reporting you for outright calling me a racist, which is personal abuse on this forum. Maybe you should read the charter a little better next time you go looking for sticks to beat people with!


I have no issue with individual French people, I do have an issue with their collective national mentality!

And I will NOT be apologising or withdrawing my comment!

Given the relatively tiny number of rioters, using the rioters as an example of the French national mentality is absolutely ludicrous. I'm not trying to justify rioting, but at least they had a cause of some sort. Remember the Orange March riots on the streets of Dublin, do you think those guys had a cause? Collectively, the French have the balls to stand up to what they disagree with. They really pissed off the Americans when they told GWB to go f*ck himself before the Iraq invasion but they didn't care and they stuck by their guns.

Of course the Irish government believe that they know whats best for the people and would love if we'd just shut up and let them get on with doing a half-assed job of running the country.

ninty9er

ninty9er wrote: »

Even the OP suggested we "do a Frenchie on it" are you going to report him too, because I'm certainly reporting you for outright calling me a racist, which is personal abuse on this forum. Maybe you should read the charter a little better next time you go looking for sticks to beat people with!

Actually, I couldn't be arsed wasting my time on you; explaining to a mod...
It's lunchtime and it's Christmas so I'm in a good festive mood and not in the form for nitpicking and pissing all over someone else's day. Have a happy Christmas

craichoe

VRT is not illegal.

If VRT is Illegal then they should bring in a Uniform tax rate across Europe.

Looking forward to paying between 32% and 52% in Income tax ? with no tax free allowance?

Gandalf23

ninty9er wrote: »

I've qualified what I said about the French and believe it or not I think the mentality of a nation whereby the amounts of people participating in riots because of social issues (ironic isn't it) is that large has a poor international image. I'm not saying your relatives conform to that, but just like the Irish are a nation of whingers, I would consider the French to be a nation of unintelligent rioters.

If you can come on here and slag 80,000 people who make up a party basing it on 100, maybe 150 public reps you don't like, then I'm damn well en titled to hold the opinion I do on the French mentality.

Even the OP suggested we "do a Frenchie on it" are you going to report him too, because I'm certainly reporting you for outright calling me a racist, which is personal abuse on this forum. Maybe you should read the charter a little better next time you go looking for sticks to beat people with!


I have no issue with individual French people, I do have an issue with their collective national mentality!

And I will NOT be apologising or withdrawing my comment!

I have no desire to bring Politics into this forum ... this is motoring and all my other posts have been about my purchase of a 1996 BMW and the changes in VRT. There is a politics forum more suited to this kind of discussion. I was willing to ingore the rubbish about FF and other policital stuff you were spouting. However I refuse to let you get away unchallenged with racist and obscene comment. I was willing to let this drop if you had simply apologised ... would it have killed you to say you were wrong? Instead you just keep digging ...

The Oxford English Dictionary defines racism as a "belief or ideology that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another race or races"

You stated the following of the French ... "So while I haven't yet decided which way I'm going to vote...my decision won't be based on any domestic issues as that would be plain stupid and stooping to the French level of intelligence"

You suggest that the French as a nation have a lower level of intelligence than the rest of us. Would you suggest the same of Nigerians? What about Travellers? Or is it just those smelly, cheese eating, surrender monkies the French that are more stupid than us?

QED ... You sir are a racist. Plain and simple. This is my opinion supported by legal definition and case law. The good members of boards can make up their own minds on this.

It says a lot about you that you refuse to withdraw or apologise for your disgraceful racist comment ... shame on you.

Cionád

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I have no desire to bring Politics into this forum ... this is motoring and all my other posts have been about my purchase of a 1996 BMW and the changes in VRT. There is a politics forum more suited to this kind of discussion. I was willing to ingore the rubbish about FF and other policital stuff you were spouting. However I refuse to let you get away unchallenged with racist and obscene comment. I was willing to let this drop if you had simply apologised ... would it have killed you to say you were wrong? Instead you just keep digging ...

The Oxford English Dictionary defines racism as a "belief or ideology that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another race or races"

You stated the following of the French ... "So while I haven't yet decided which way I'm going to vote...my decision won't be based on any domestic issues as that would be plain stupid and stooping to the French level of intelligence"

You suggest that the French as a nation have a lower level of intelligence than the rest of us. Would you suggest the same of Nigerians? What about Travellers? Or is it just those smelly, cheese eating, surrender monkies the French that are more stupid than us?

QED ... You sir are a racist. Plain and simple. This is my opinion supported by legal definition and case law. The good members of boards can make up their own minds on this.

It says a lot about you that you refuse to withdraw or apologise for your disgraceful racist comment ... shame on you.

Well said.

ninty9er wrote:

I would consider the French to be a nation of unintelligent rioters

What???!!, what age are you?, have you no education?
Are the irish a nation of terrorists?

cancan

Well since an election is the only time the masses get to display their power, and a NO vote would make Bertie look pretty stupid in front of the other leaders, I say go for it.
Great idea.

The FF element here have demonstrated enough reasons to make a protest vote worthwhile.

junkyard

Gandalf23 wrote: »

It says a lot about you that you refuse to withdraw or apologise for your disgraceful racist comment ... shame on you.

This is normal conduct for FF supporters, when in a hole keep digging and never admit your wrong, he's only following his leader, some people are beyond help.:)

cantdecide

craichoe wrote: »

If VRT is Illegal then they should bring in a Uniform tax rate across Europe. Looking forward to paying between 32% and 52% in Income tax ? with no tax free allowance?

Well, by taking a few % of income tax off of people which makes little difference to an average person on a day-to-day basis and making up the difference by heaping on extortionate rates of tax to motoring (ie, the majority, whether individually or removing money from a family that needs a good car ie most families) is effectively creating a falsehood.

In other words they're saying, 'We are a low income tax country but for God's sake, don't buy a car cos we have singled out motorists and specifically new car buyers to subsidise the tax breaks we've given everyone' because we thought it was fair.

I bet high tax rate countries don't have more stealth taxes than we have. People seem to think there's something wrong with transparent taxation.

cancan

Perhaps if they spent as much time scrutinising spending, as they do with coming up with new taxes, we wouldn't need all these taxes...

Fire the lowest performing civil servants anyone?

Gregor Samsa

OP, how exactly do you plan on making sure the Government knows that you voting No in the Lisbon Treaty referendum is a protest against VRT? Are you not worried they'll just think you're a Mail on Sunday reader, and are protesting against the metric system or something?

and just to go a bit OT...

meathstevie wrote: »

That's an idea junkyard, get another 3 lads and we all pitch in a tenner. That must be a fair offer Mugabe can't decline for us to purchase Zimbabwe...

He'd just seize it back and give it to the "war veterans". Then you'd be down a tenner with still no utopia.

E92

phutyle wrote: »

OP, how exactly do you plan on making sure the Government knows that you voting No in the Lisbon Treaty referendum is a protest against VRT? Are you not worried they'll just think you're a Mail on Sunday reader, and are protesting against the metric system or something?

The EU has scrapped its requirement for everything to go metric indefinitely, so you can use the old fashioned system all you want:).

ninty9er

Gandalf23 wrote: »

The Oxford English Dictionary defines racism as a "belief or ideology that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another race or races"

QED ... You sir are a racist. Plain and simple. This is my opinion supported by legal definition and case law. The good members of boards can make up their own minds on this.

It says a lot about you that you refuse to withdraw or apologise for your disgraceful racist comment ... shame on you.

I don't see many other countries rioting about reform they voted for....so I believe that I can draw the conclusion that I did. I have also checked, in person, with a SMod on boards.ie who sees no issue with what I said and in the company of others, even one who is moving to France next month, none disagreed with me or considered it could be construed as racist by anybody thinking rationally. The full application of legal definitions very often makes for a poor arbitration of justice.

And now I'm not in such a good mood, so I am going to report you for personal abuse. I'm a not you a racist. Political correctness is gone too far when a comment such as that can be construed as racist. I stand by what I said!

Oilrig

Jeez,

Talk about thread drift!

Guys, the "Block Exemption" was all about dealers/fuel retailers being excluded the opportunity of retailing rival marques from the same premises etc.

It has nowt to do with taxes...

The base price (pre-tax) of vehicles varies because of differing specs - and they are different here - most cars on sale here are not the UK versions. It has to be said though that the manufacturers will cream it a little in LOW TAX countries, i.e. Ireland and Denmark tend to have the lowest pre tax prices in the EU because we have HIGH TAX regimes.

As for the treaty, wait and see what's involved before deciding how to vote would be my advice, do your own research - i.e. don't just listen to the Government or Opposition take on it.

Happy Xmas.

Cionád

ninty9er wrote: »

I don't see many other countries rioting about reform they voted for....so I believe that I can draw the conclusion that I did. I have also checked, in person, with a SMod on boards.ie who sees no issue with what I said and in the company of others, even one who is moving to France next month, none disagreed with me or considered it could be construed as racist by anybody thinking rationally. The full application of legal definitions very often makes for a poor arbitration of justice.

And now I'm not in such a good mood, so I am going to report you for personal abuse. I'm a not you a racist. Political correctness is gone too far when a comment such as that can be construed as racist. I stand by what I said!

You really must be misinformed about the rioting in France. To brand a whole nationality "unintelligent rioters" because of the civil unrest by a minority of underprivileged inner city citizens is baffling to me.

The unrest which occurred a couple of weeks ago was sparked when a police car hit a motorcycle and killed two teenagers. In 2005 the rioting was caused when two teenagers fleeing from the police were electrocuted. [nothing to do with reforms]

If you refer to the riots that followed the Sarkozy election victory, that was not exactly widespread, this is a nation of ~60 million people. Would it be reasonable for me to suggest that i consider Limerick to be a city of unintelligent stabbers/murderers? - Of course not, cause thats a ridiculous generalization, just like the one you made about the French. While it may not be inherent racism (or xenophobia to be more accurate), you do act like you get your foreign news from the Metro or The Sun. Bertie would be proud.

Merry Christmas

ninty9er

Cionád wrote: »

Would it be reasonable for me to suggest that i consider Limerick to be a city of unintelligent stabbers/murderers? - Of course not, cause thats a ridiculous generalization, just like the one you made about the French.

just because it's not true, doesn't mean you're not entitled to hold that opinion...I have many acquaintances all over the country who hold that view of Limerick and no matter how hard you argue that's not going to change, especially when every national newspapers spews the exact same ****e.

"Unintelligent whingers" I'll take back, but the original comment still stands. The French are seen worldwide as being arrogant, discourteous, hairy armpitted for the ladies....Now it doens't follow that every or even a majority of French people are! does that change the generalisation...No.

Listen, I'm not the biggest fan of generalisations and I don't make a habit of sweeping statements like that, but voting on people's futures in the upcoming accession states on the basis of what your own regime is doing and not because of the inherent merits and demerits of the document under discussion is "an unintelligent stance".

Now I'm quite sure that I could be called an uninformed poster, but to suggest on the basis of the original post in question that I am an unequivocal racist is quite a sweping generalisation also. I have friends from the US, Romania (and he does conform to the stereotype, though is a hard worker), Poland, Czech Republic, Germany, Zimbabwe and even as far flung as Moyross. Hell I even have friends from Kerry! None of the people from the US fit the stereotype of no passport, the Romanian guy doe conform somewhat, the Polish people are hard workers in general like the stereotype says, the Czech Guy is one of the most polite people I know, but I don't know of any typical Czech stereotypes anyway, the Germans aren't always on time, the guy from Zimbabwe isn't (couldn't even think of a stereotype....he's actually a Fianna Fáiler)....the poeple from Moyross aren't scumbags as many would think when someone says they're from Moyross and the many Kerry friends I have aren't farming mucksavages.

That doesn't mean people will stop attatching a stigma to Moyross or that people will give up telling Kerryman jokes. That's life. and just because someone tells a Kerryman joke doesn't make them a racist, because I'd love to see someone try to argue that, especially to a Kerryman!!

Some of you people take life waaay to seriously if you misconstrue what I said as racist.

PeakOutput

dictionary definition and legal definition are not the same thing