Is Toyota quality slipping?

pburns

This is based on personal anecdotal evidence and some posts I've read on this board recently. My interest was also piqued by an article I noticed lately about Katsuaki Watanabe, Toyota CEO, who seems to be a nut for cost-cutting (can't find it now but the article below gives a flavour).

They couldn't repeat the mistakes of late '90s/early '00s Daimler-Benz? Could they?

http://www.automotiveworld.com/wvma/content.asp?contentid=65295

Their car satisfaction and reliability rates have them off the top spot for a few years now..

Spit62500

I remember reading that they are aware of slipping quality and are making efforts to improve it before their reputation is dented. The Corolla launch in the US was held back so that quality could be improved before launch...

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/10/toyota_corolla_delay.html

The US has far more stringent warranty obligations for manufacturers so its expensive for them if a car has to be recalled. Maybe the European launch wasn't held back in a similar way so that they could iron out faults in production? I've read many complaints about dashboard creaks and squeaks in the Auris on the UK Toyota Owners club forum.

E92

Spit62500 wrote: »

Maybe the European launch wasn't held back in a similar way so that they could iron out faults in production? I've read many complaints about dashboard creaks and squeaks in the Auris on the UK Toyota Owners club forum.

When the Auris was launched, the motoring press were heavily critical of the quality of the Auris's interior. Toyota said in their defence that their market research showed that interior quality wasn't very high on the European buyers' wish-list. Clearly that was rubbish. Europeans love high quality interiors(well at least interiors that feel as is they are high quality, US buyers couldn't give a toss about the quality of fixtures and fittings).

And there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that Toyota standards are slipping. They are still a lot more reliable than many other cars, and thus far are not taking the huge downturn Merc did, but they don't make 'em like they used to, that there is no doubt about, and with this massive cost cutting plan(not as though Toyota needed it since they are already the world's most profitable car manufacturer) it doesn't bode well for the quality and reliability of future models. Remember Merc, the cost cutting was to make Merc more profitable, the days of over engineering cars was at an end so they told us, instead it sent reliability down the tubes and if you look at the inside of a new Merc it is no better than a value brand like a Skoda.

Now Toyota are saying that their future models won't be over engineered(I think the CEO of Toyota actually said this) like present models are, well all I can say is I hope they keep at it and it goes spectacularly wrong for them and they will see the error of their ways just like Merc have started to.

ninty9er

E92 wrote: »

and with this massive cost cutting plan(not as though Toyota needed it since they are already the world's most profitable car manufacturer)

Kluivert may or may not agree...I've my accounting head on now...

you don't become the world's most profitable car manufacturer without minding the costs:cool:

Masada

toyota's standards have deffinately dropped in recent years., ive worked on 2 corolla's that were suffering from gearbox trouble, they were around 03ish, on one of them the coil pack went on it aswell and in the end it had a terminal problem with the bottom end,. the car belonged to a friend of mine and it was never abused but from day one it was plagued with problems, particularly ECU stuff,.
Now when im working on stuff like the carina for instance i think its funny how they hardly ever have trouble and are ancient in comparason., another thing i noticed was that in the 04-06ish RAV4s they have silver paint on interior trims, gear know etc and within about 3 months it had started to wear off of a brand new car, and the centre console buttons are exactly the same ones they used in pre 95 corollas. the electric window button looks like it was an after thought and you have to lean over to reach it comfortably.,
then theres the 07 corolla, it uses digital instruments on the dash, and the petrol gauge is completely usless, it is constantly changing and you can never feel confident in what the level really is., it all looks nice but feels really cheap and plasticy inside., I also dont like the way you have to press the clutch every time you try to start it, i know that isnt a quality issue but i spend a lot of time under the hoods of cars and its handy when you can walk around and start the car without having to keep getting into the thing.,
the old toyota's were bulletproof compared to a lot of the stuff they have today.,

colm_mcm

vtec wrote: »

toyota's standards have deffinately dropped in recent years., ive worked on 2 corolla's that were suffering from gearbox trouble, they were around 03ish, on one of them the coil pack went on it aswell and in the end it had a terminal problem with the bottom end,. the car belonged to a friend of mine and it was never abused but from day one it was plagued with problems, particularly ECU stuff,.
Now when im working on stuff like the carina for instance i think its funny how they hardly ever have trouble and are ancient in comparason., another thing i noticed was that in the 04-06ish RAV4s they have silver paint on interior trims, gear know etc and within about 3 months it had started to wear off of a brand new car, and the centre console buttons are exactly the same ones they used in pre 95 corollas. the electric window button looks like it was an after thought and you have to lean over to reach it comfortably.,
then theres the 07 corolla, it uses digital instruments on the dash, and the petrol gauge is completely usless, it is constantly changing and you can never feel confident in what the level really is., it all looks nice but feels really cheap and plasticy inside., I also dont like the way you have to press the clutch every time you try to start it, i know that isnt a quality issue but i spend a lot of time under the hoods of cars and its handy when you can walk around and start the car without having to keep getting into the thing.,
the old toyota's were bulletproof compared to a lot of the stuff they have today.,

As cars need more technology, and people expect more features, simple cars like the Carina E won't happen again. Strange that people forget the niggly problems the Carina E gave when it was on sale! people used to say "it'll never be as good as the Carina II"


On a couple of specific points:
I have a 6 year old Rav4 here with interior paint still intact....

The clutch switch on the Auris/Corolla/Yaris is a safety feature, not a problem once you work on a few of them. no harm to press the clutch when starting.
Re:the fuel gauge, it also has a range meter, which takes the guesswork out of it. a lot of cars petrol lights go on and off, but it's more pronounced on the digital meter.

S.I.R

toyota died in 1987 imo , changing the corolla to fwd , not making the supra's dezign any lighter , under-powering the mkI mr2 also the fact that there cars seemed to be made on a budget of 5 quid didnt help.

ofcourse some of there cars are great but others are just a pile of rubbish. just like every car producer.

Masada

colm_mcm wrote: »

As cars need more technology, and people expect more features, simple cars like the Carina E won't happen again. Strange that people forget the niggly problems the Carina E gave when it was on sale! people used to say "it'll never be as good as the Carina II"


On a couple of specific points:
I have a 6 year old Rav4 here with interior paint still intact....

The clutch switch on the Auris/Corolla/Yaris is a safety feature, not a problem once you work on a few of them. no harm to press the clutch when starting.
Re:the fuel gauge, it also has a range meter, which takes the guesswork out of it. a lot of cars petrol lights go on and off, but it's more pronounced on the digital meter.

i have no idea about your rav4 but ive seen it in every one of them ive worked on and theres a 2004 one in my family with the same thing, its the paint on the plastic on the interior door handles, gear knob, the parts on either side of the stereo etc.,
what do ya think of the window switches? i hate the things and can never find them in the dark, almost all cars have them in an easy to reach place except the rav4.
as i said about the clutch switch, its not a problem but i find it an inconvienience, theres lots of other cars that have it too,.

as for the petrol light, at least with other cars when the light comes on and off you know its just at that level where it warns you and that you have plenty of time to make it to a garage, with the new corolla it can go from 2 bars to 1 and then it flashes in just a few mins and then go back to non flashing and sometimes 2 bars again., this car is also in the family a few months now, I like the styling of them but they feel really cheap inside.,

E92

vtec wrote: »

I like the styling of them but they feel really cheap inside.,

see post #4 by me for the reason why the Auris feels cheap n' nasty inside(having sat in one I can confirm this to be true)

cantdecide

Mum had a courtesy '07 Avensis for a week or more over the summer.

It cannot be understated- interiors are very disapointing. Dash rattles and squeaks, general feeling of made-of-tin and an intermittant pulsing sound from the back left.

I know the older GS300s are plagued by front brake, steering and suspension problems, coil packs and other things.

I know a girl who got an '02 corolla new (or close to it) who was plagued with problems. Ultimatums given and threats to give car back etc.

No car is 100% reliable but those arrogant Toyota owners think they're the smartest people in the world. I've always thought you had to sell your soul to get a dull avensis but it looks like those Toyotas are about to get interesting.

(ps, I noticed if you look at UK autotrader, there's 24000 bmws for sale and only 14000 Toyotas- draw your own conclusions)

maidhc

I have often commented on our Avensis.

Rotten thing.

It will soon be getting its 4th clutch (110k miles). You could blame the drivers except it is my parents car, and they have never fitted a replacment clutch to any other car: including a 200k miler mondeo we still run.

It has given lots of other niggly problems and vibrates horribly at 60+mph. I wish a truck would crash into it someday when it is parked up at the side of the road.

An unreliable Toyota is perhaps the most pointless vehicle in existance. You can forgive some cars, like Alfas, but never, ever, a bread and butter toyota.

cantdecide

maidhc wrote: »

An unreliable Toyota is perhaps the most pointless vehicle in existance

Wow, Maidhc- I couldn't have said it better:p

jayok

maidhc wrote: »

...An unreliable Toyota is perhaps the most pointless vehicle in existence...

Love that line - I will use again

Masada

lol., i like that one,
i think toyota have become all sony-ish actually, they've become too proud of their own reputation and think that they can throw anything out there and it be accepted.,

cantdecide

vtec wrote: »

lol., i like that one,
i think toyota have become all sony-ish actually, they've become too proud of their own reputation and think that they can throw anything out there and it be accepted.,

Definitely in Ireland- a Totota stronghold.

colm_mcm

vtec wrote: »

i
what do ya think of the window switches? i hate the things and can never find them in the dark, almost all cars have them in an easy to reach place except the rav4.

The window switches are generic Toyota parts, no great effort put into them. Drivers one is lit IIRC, but the rest arent.
Actually, what annoys me is that no Toyotas that I can remember have illuminated mirror switches. no idea why not!

Take your point on the Auris. Way off the mark. Corolla is much better though.

Masada

the one im talking about is the corolla, 2007 4dr saloon., isnt the auris mostly the same anyway?

colm_mcm

The Auris interior is like the Corolla, only with harder plastics! switches are the same.

what_car

pburns wrote: »

This is based on personal anecdotal evidence and some posts I've read on this board recently. My interest was also piqued by an article I noticed lately about Katsuaki Watanabe, Toyota CEO, who seems to be a nut for cost-cutting (can't find it now but the article below gives a flavour).

They couldn't repeat the mistakes of late '90s/early '00s Daimler-Benz? Could they?

http://www.automotiveworld.com/wvma/content.asp?contentid=65295

yes definately. back in 95 i had a corolla, buit rock solid very strongly put together. have had many toyota since then, and the build quality was never as good, ( they were built much better when built in japan). i had one of the first 1.4d4d saloons when they were released and it was the old shape, and much better car to drive than the new one...

i drove a new corolla 1.4 petrol. and its worse to drive than the previous model. cluch feels crap. and that digital fuel guage is so ****e. the new 1.4 petrol gives roughly the same fuel economy as my 2.0 auto accord!

E92

what_car wrote: »

i drove a new corolla 1.4 petrol. and its worse to drive than the previous model. cluch feels crap. and that digital fuel guage is so ****e. the new 1.4 petrol gives roughly the same fuel economy as my 2.0 auto accord!

Well it weighs more than an Avensis, what were you expecting:D?
(my dads Avensis gives no more than 41 mpg even on Motorway driving)

I was in the diesel one recently because I was getting a taxi somewhere, and even in town it was slow enough, so the 1.4 petrol must be very slow indeed.(the kerb weight for the 1.4 Corolla is 1270 kg, an Avensis 1.6 or 1.8 weighs 1245 kg)

what_car

E92 wrote: »

Well it weighs more than an Avensis, what were you expecting:D?
(my dads Avensis gives no more than 41 mpg even on Motorway driving)

I was in the diesel one recently because I was getting a taxi somewhere, and even in town it was slow enough, so the 1.4 petrol must be very slow indeed.(the kerb weight for the 1.4 Corolla is 1270 kg, an Avensis 1.6 or 1.8 weighs 1245 kg)

i wasnt expecting much really just had one in the yard idle, so took it for a spin.. just reporting back my findings

had the choice of a 07 316 or the corolla, as both were idle, so took the corolla , ..

im driving a vx 4.2 landcruiser for the next while nice and comfy , plenty of poke and thirsty as hell. its very very well put together, and great off road

JHMEG

Interior squeaks and rattles, while annoying, are no indication of the overall quality of a car (ask any Honda or Opel owner).

Masada

what_car wrote: »

i drove a new corolla 1.4 petrol. and its worse to drive than the previous model. cluch feels crap. and that digital fuel guage is so ****e. the new 1.4 petrol gives roughly the same fuel economy as my 2.0 auto accord!

I agree, theres no power at all in the 1.4, i have a 1.4 civic from 2004 and its a hundred times quicker than the new corolla., the clutch is too light aswell and after using the corolla today for a few hours i can say for absolute sure, that petrol gauge is complete sh*te., it was all over the place and even after putting 20quid in it, it took a while before the car copped on and stopped saying "low fuel".,

finbarrk

If they were as bad as most of ye are saying there wouldn't be as many of them on our roads.
They definatley don't give as many niggley problems as most other makes.
Maybe the interior design isn't the best but they are no. 1 for relibality.

cantdecide

If they were as bad as most of ye are saying there wouldn't be as many of them on our roads.

As I've previously posted, right now if you look on Autotrader UK, there's almost twice as many BMWs for sale as Toyotas. Ireland are Toyota fetishists without good reason- they're not as good as Irish people allow themselves to be brainwashed to believe. Out in the real world people who couldn't care less about cars buy them because they heard someone tell them Toyotas are the best built cars in the world:D
All brands must have someone to buy them afterall but I'll have an unreliable Alfa over a 'relibale toyota' any day of the week.

....they are no. 1 for relibality....

No car is totally reliable, not least Toyota. I think it's usually Mazda that have that accolade but I'm open to correction.

bushy...

finbarrk wrote: »

If they were as bad as most of ye are saying there wouldn't be as many of them on our roads.

Even if they turned into total crap , it would take a good bit of time for the "always had a toyota " people to stop buying them, since they were good for so long. Vaguely like I said that " Lucas , Prince of darkness " thing one day in a motorfactors n one lad got well offended, just because he hadn't ever problems from their key switches etc etc.

Masada

finbarrk wrote: »

If they were as bad as most of ye are saying there wouldn't be as many of them on our roads.
They definatley don't give as many niggley problems as most other makes.
Maybe the interior design isn't the best but they are no. 1 for relibality.

nobodys making them out to be bad, just not nearly as imortal as some people seem to think., every car will have some sort of fault at some time but it has to be said that toyota used to be better than they are today.,

another thing i remembered i dont like on a lot of the new toyota's, those seatbelt chimes that kep beeping if you dont put it on., i understand the need for that on the drivers seat as there is always gonna be someone in that seat, but if your carrying anything in the front seat the belt chime keeps sounding., i know its not a big deal but i was being pickey.,lol.,:D

kluivert

I actually perfer the interior of my Mk4 Astra over the Mk5 Astra.

I think because materials in production like construction have got expensive due to the increase in oil which is required for the manufacturer of the materials.

The new Auris is fat like most modern cars now a days. Too heavy and no updates to the engine. Plus any increase in power would lead to lower mileage. So all in all, we get slower cars.

Toyota always made a lighter car than than Opel or Volkwagen. If its quality you want its a Skoda you need. Never thought I would say that.

bazz26

I've had two Avensis, a MkI and up to recently a MkII. The MkII is far superior in everyway possible to the MkI. It was more solidly built, heavier, the fit & finish of the panels were excellent and it had (even after 167k miles) that clunk when you closed the door previously only reserved for certain German cars.

The one downside which all Toyotas seem to suffer from in my experience are rattles from around the dashboard fittings. I reckoned it was a standard feature but easily remedied by turning up the volume of the stereo. Both were light years ahead of the pile of junk Vectra I had before then.

ShakeAndBake

finbarrk wrote: »

If they were as bad as most of ye are saying there wouldn't be as many of them on our roads.
They definatley don't give as many niggley problems as most other makes.
Maybe the interior design isn't the best but they are no. 1 for relibality.

Not quite true. The president of Toyota made a speech last year were he apologised for the build quality. There is a very simple reason behind it. popularity.

When you build a factory that has a maximum production out put of say 200,000 vehicles a year... what you gonna do when you can easily supply 350,000? Most of Toyota productions lines are on over capicity. The only way to do it is remove certain things along the line, say the bloke who was checking for rattles in door panels. The cost of building a new factory or production line is way too expensive compared to over maximising a currrent line.

The thing that saves Toyota is their second to none (industry wise) After sales. There was one model a while back that had serious engine issues. Toyota ensured that every garage had the compnoents (expensive) in stock to do a rebuild or cylinder head swap (i can't recall the exact details) if required. So you could drop your car off in the morning for a service and collect it in the evening and the work was done without you even having to know. Its fairly common for a lot of the manufactures to do that rather than have to do a recall, if the can persuade the transport dept, but very few would go to the extent Toyota do. As such they can still push forward with the reliability thing but their quality has declined in recent years from what it was.

I can't find a link to the presidents speech but I think the link below was related to it at the time. It's kinda late to be super googling

http://www.autospies.com/news/Does-The-Press-Have-Favorites-Toyota-s-Defects-Irk-U-S-Automakers-Not-Buyers-7088/