Is Toyota quality slipping?

E92

What ShakeAndBake seems to be implying is that Toyota have decided to do a Merc on it. So future Toyotas certainly won't be built as well as they used to be.

And as for customer care, it is very easy to be all nice and friendly to the customers because the cars are or should that be were so well made they never went wrong, and people turned up to get the car serviced and that was it. The reliable makes always seem to have excellent customer care, the unreliable makes don't.

I wonder what will happen with sister company Lexus? The Americans will desert Toyota if the standards from Toyota drop, one of the reasons Yanks love Japanese cars is because of their reliability after all, and the Irish will stop buying them too, one of the reasons why they are so popular here is because of the r-word.

I know people still buy Mercs but at the market Toyota is competing in, reliability certainly is very important factor in peoples' buying decisions.

Maybe Honda and Mazda will be big beneficiaries in this fall in Toyota quality and reliability?

Masada

honda have already stated they are aiming to be the biggest manufacturer in the world., In the last 2-3 years Toyota had spend hundreds of millions on the F1 team as part of their drive to be the best selling and so far they havent reaped the benefits of it at all., they are selling the most cars for now but thats more to do with the problems GM are having rather than toyota doing any better., Maybe there stuk in the old "quality over quantity" trap.,

Darwin

Toyota quality slipping? I certainly think so if the quality of paintwork on my wife's new Yaris is any way representative of that model. I brought the car back to the dealer as the lacquer was lifting in several places after three months of ownership. An 'expert' from Toyota claimed it was caked on bird**** that caused the damage. It may be possible that it was - but good God they must be using watered down nail varnish or something for the finish. Never again.

E92

The real reason why Toyota can sell more for less is because unlike the big three in the US they don't have the enormous costs of the pensions and healthcare etc that those makes have. That is a big reason why they so much more profitable. Another reason why is because GM have more brands than they know what to do with them, and Ford sell 2 completely different Focuses, they sell a Fusion in the US which is based on the old Mazda 6 and then a completely unrelated car, the Mondeo elsewhere, they don't even have standardised engines(Mazda engines are only found in Mazdas with the exception of the diesels in the 2&3).

Toyota only have themselves, Daihatsu, Scion and Lexus and that's it.

Daihatsu is a value brand, Toyota is the standard bearer, Scion is the youth/sporty brand for the US and Lexus is the premium brand. When you have too many brands, the economies of scale actually disappear, so oddly enough the best thing Ford and GM could do(Ford are doing it) is to downsize and thereby become more efficient.

bazz26

E92 wrote: »

When you have too many brands, the economies of scale actually disappear, so oddly enough the best thing Ford and GM could do(Ford are doing it) is to downsize and thereby become more efficient.

Indeed, Ford recently flogged Jaguar & Aston Martin to my knowledge. Also afaik Land Rover is "in the process" or "going to be" sold to that Indian crowd Tata.

But in the bigger scale of things alot of the reasons you gave above for Ford/GM doing so bad could be put down to bad management or poor business awareness over the years. Something which Toyota seemed to avoid.

But just to add wait to the argument that not everything Toyota does turn to gold. Their heavy investment in F1 has been generally a very expensive failure but two good things from it are that the new Lexus LF-A with a 552bhp 4.8 litre V10 test car has recently unoffically lapped the Nurburgring ring in 7 mins 24 secs and the forthcoming Supra successfor is promissing.

CyberGhost

Isn't Honda the numero uno on the reliablity scale now?


btw, if anyone has an experiece are the old Avensis models still reliable?

This ones

E92

bazz26 wrote: »

Indeed, Ford recently flogged Jaguar & Aston Martin to my knowledge. Also afaik Land Rover is "in the process" or "going to be" sold to that Indian crowd Tata.

They only flogged Aston. Jag and LR are going together. What you correctly said about LR applies to Jag too. The reason why they are both going together is because LR is very profitable and Jag ain't.

maidhc

CyberGhost wrote: »

btw, if anyone has an experiece are the old Avensis models still reliable?

Had two, hateful machines.

My opinion (for what it matters) is that modern fords are as good if not better than most.

E92

Isn't the first generation Avensis just a reskinned and rebadged Carina E?

maidhc

E92 wrote: »

Isn't the first generation Avensis just a reskinned and rebadged Carina E?

It most certainly is. There is a greater difference between the facelift mk2 focus and its immediate predecessor than there is between the Avensis and carina.

The design is crude, it is badly put together, horrendously unreliable in my case anyway, and very very thirsty.

unkel

bazz26 wrote: »

not everything Toyota does turn to gold. Their heavy investment in F1 has been generally a very expensive failure but two good things from it are that the new Lexus LF-A with a 552bhp 4.8 litre V10 test car has recently unoffically lapped the Nurburgring ring in 7 mins 24 secs

Very impressive! Anyone know if it will go into production?

bazz26

unkel wrote: »

Very impressive! Anyone know if it will go into production?

It was an unoffical lap time in a test mule but apparently it did it in 1 second faster than the new 911 GT2. :eek: It is expected to go on sale in 2010.

It is supposed to look like this:
[URL="javascript:self.close();"][/URL]

CyberGhost

maidhc wrote: »

Had two, hateful machines.

My opinion (for what it matters) is that modern fords are as good if not better than most.

Would you care to elaborate on what's exactly wrong with them please? cause I was seriously considering buying one.

ninty9er

CyberGhost wrote: »

Would you care to elaborate on what's exactly wrong with them please? cause I was seriously considering buying one.

It's already been stated on the thread that it's pretty much a Carina E, which would seem to suggest if people want to go down that route arguing against it, BUT it also means it's pretty much indestructible.

There was an issue with some of the early VVT-i engines on the facelift model and late pre-facelift. This was covered under warranty by Toyota though, so make sure there's paperwork to show this if buying a 00-02 VVT-i

bazz26

I would try and stretch to a 03 new model instead if you can. I've had both types and the new version is light years ahead of the old one.

E92

From the Hybrids - good idea or no thread, I posted this:

E92 wrote: »

Falling off bits of interior while not the end of the world don't give a very good impressions of a cars' quality.

And have a look at this
thread which is straight from the Toyota Owners' Club which points to a decline in build quality(not necessarily reliability yet though)

The International Hearld Tribune has a big article and there is no escaping the fact that standards with Toyota have indeed dropped.

Speaking from a "personal experience" which you place a huge value on, my old man's Avensis has 54,000 miles on the clock(presently) and is fast approaching 3 years old. Now he has had Corollas, Carina E and Avensis for over 20 years, and thus far the Avensis has had air conditioning problems(the air was cool instead of icy cold), Traction Control problems(the electronics don't seem to understand that spinning wheels are part of the game for traction control), it has pulled to the left, and on one occasion it wouldn't start(I actually detailed this on Motors the time it happened), then did and then wouldn't again. The previous Toyota, a Carina E managed 130,000 miles, had a rev counter problem(it was sticking), needed a new battery, new clutch, and 2 recalls about something I can't remember.

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

Very impressive! Anyone know if it will go into production?

Unkel, if you had been paying attention I had a bit about this car in my Rebirth of the Japanese Supercar thread. The LF-A is coming out in 2008.

CyberGhost

ninty9er wrote: »

It's already been stated on the thread that it's pretty much a Carina E, which would seem to suggest if people want to go down that route arguing against it, BUT it also means it's pretty much indestructible.

There was an issue with some of the early VVT-i engines on the facelift model and late pre-facelift. This was covered under warranty by Toyota though, so make sure there's paperwork to show this if buying a 00-02 VVT-i

Thanks ninty9er! I'm going for a 98-99 model, so I guess I'm covered.

bazz26 wrote: »

I would try and stretch to a 03 new model instead if you can. I've had both types and the new version is light years ahead of the old one.

Can't stretch to 03

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

Unkel, if you had been paying attention I had a bit about this car in my Rebirth of the Japanese Supercar

C'mon! There's a new Japanese concept car introduced every day of the year and all of them will sell 10,000,000 per year and will do >400km/h

It is extremely rare that an actual Japanese prototype can put down a great racing performance. Please don't mind me getting excited

JHMEG wrote: »

The LF-A is coming out in 2008.

Linky link? Same spec car as did the Ring?

unkel

CyberGhost wrote: »

I was seriously considering buying one.

Why? You want to bore yourself to death?

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

C'mon! There's a new Japanese concept car introduced every day of the year and all of them will sell 10,000,000 per year and will do >400km/h

In reality there hasn't been a wave of Japanese 'supercars' since the NSX/300ZX/RX7/Supra in the early 90s (tho the NSX is the only one considered to be a true supercar). Things have been very quiet and mundane since. The only car to have broken the 280bhp self imposed power limit is the Nissan GTR released in the last couple of weeks, which marks the beginning of a new wave of Japanese heavy metal. GTR does 0-60 in 3.3sec, is 480bhp, top speed 193mph. It does the 'ring in 7min 38sec. (Holy crap! Compare the best from Porsche, Ferrari etc)

unkel wrote: »

It is extremely rare that an actual Japanese prototype can put down a great racing performance. Please don't mind me getting excited

It is extremely rare that a Japanese prototype gets past being a display item at a motor show, but that has been the nature of the beast. The Japanese are by all accounts quite conservative. Maybe it's because their own tastes can be quite bizzare and it's difficult to create a motor that is appealing to everyone.

unkel wrote: »

Linky link? Same spec car as did the Ring?

C&D report the LF-A as being due in 2008. Other sources concur. From the leaked material you can see the car is nearly ready.

Acura's ASCC is a competitor to the LF-A, being a front engined V10 ~500bhp. The final look hasn't been decided upon, but mules dressed up as S2000s are doing the 'ring in around 8 mins.

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

C&D report the LF-A as being due in 2008

In fairness, that is as vague a report as I've seen. Bazz reported 2010 as a release date though. Let's wait and see.

JHMEG wrote: »

In reality there hasn't been a wave of Japanese 'supercars' since the NSX/300ZX/RX7/Supra in the early 90s (tho the NSX is the only one considered to be a true supercar)

That's generations ago. A lowly bog standard BMW 1-series is faster in a race than an original Honda NSX as we've discussed before

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

In fairness, that is as vague a report as I've seen. Bazz reported 2010 as a release date though. Let's wait and see.

Google. Watch the videos. The car is as good as ready.

unkel wrote: »

That's generations ago. A lowly bog standard BMW 1-series is faster in a race than an original Honda NSX as we've discussed before

Will you go away out of that. (Proof? (An NSX-R is faster than a V10 M5 on the 'ring))

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

Google. Watch the videos. The car is as good as ready

Yeah right. Don't mind me. I'll wait until it is reality

And I wasn't talking about hyped up versions of the NSR. The original NSR sure looked like a supercar. And back then it was a pretty fast car that could be used every day, was easy to drive and reliable to boot. Very few cars could claim that accolade back then. Maybe only Porsche had a car that could claim all that

But things have moved on. Today the original NSX is slower than a current small family hatch. Especially around a race course...

Masada

A 1series beating an NSX? thats a race id love to see,.

maidhc

unkel wrote: »

That's generations ago. A lowly bog standard BMW 1-series is faster in a race than an original Honda NSX as we've discussed before

Ahh come off it. This is BMW worshipping brought to new heights. Maybe it is possible if a disorientated monkey drives the honda.

bazz26

unkel wrote: »

A lowly bog standard BMW 1-series is faster in a race than an original Honda NSX as we've discussed before

I wouldn't call the 1 series with a 3.0 litre engine bog standard. And even at that it took BMW 15 years to do it.

Engineering has made many leaps and bounds in that time. Your average family saloon can probably out run a MkI Golf GTi these days.

PS. The expected launch date of 2010 was only speculation on my behalf, due to Toyota's underwelming fore into F1 the project has been well delayed. The fact they have a test mule doing The Ring is very encouraging though.

Masada

maybe he ment "NSR", as in the 125cc motorbike,.lol
even that might beat the 1 series,.lol

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

And I wasn't talking about hyped up versions of the NSX

The original 3.0 NSX is 20 seconds faster than a 130i around Nurburgring.

What are you talking about?

E92

Without having looked at any videos, I would have to say the following. Lads, what were you expecting like? One car has 276 bhp, has a mid engine, is a supercar and is not artificially limited to 250 km/h. The other has 265 bhp, is a family hatchback, artificially limited to 250 km/h, and is front engined. It is totally unfair and unreasonable to expect a FR family hatchback with less power than a MR supercar to be quicker. A supercar should be miles ahead really.