It always gets political in here

ninty9er

I've just gone on an off topic rant at Gandalf on another thread...politically motivated of course:p:p

Apologies to all for that. I did contemplate a pm, but he got his dig-in publicly so why shouldn't I do the same.

<rant>
The government is NOT TO BLAME for every single one of your problems. I will defend where I can just as balooba and E92 would had Inda and his Pet Rabbit won the election.

It makes no difference....the only difference that I could possibly have forseen is that we would not now be seeing the reforms for next July, promised in the December '06 budget.

No political party has a psycic inroad to your mind, and you can be damn sure that Sean Dorgan isn't sitting in FF HQ, Tom Curren over in FG HQ, nor anybody over in Ely Place monitoring every message board in the country to see who's bitching about them today.

What you can be sure of is that if you don't go and find your TD, make an appointment to see them, in a group if you like, they are not going to know what the fu<k you want either.

so before anyone congratulates:rolleyes: me on drawing another thread off topic or spinning a story.

a) have you spent time bringing this to the attention of your legislator or do you just tell them you're watching telly, shake their hand and close the door when they come or do you bother to go to his or her office and discuss the issue??

b) I'm going to respond politically to any political comment I like on these boards.

c) Think before you write!

d) If all you can do is whinge, don't come back with more crap when someone like myself, balooba or E92 responds with a political view, even though we may disagree

e) my sig comes in for a lot of slack. I'm not in the habit of rolling out something I support only when there's an election, so I'll thank people to refrain from trolling or souting sh1t on the basis of my sig!


</rant>

cancan

Correct me if I am mistaken, but you were going around with a Fianna Fail sig, and you're telling us we're making the forums political?

If the gov is not to blame for the idiotic new tax and vrt rules, then who is?

If the gov is not to blame for taxing the life out of motoring in ireland, who is?

I'd love to lay the blame at some other door, but there is none to leave it at.

ninty9er

cancan wrote: »

Correct me if I am mistaken, but you were going around with a Fianna Fail sig, and you're telling us we're making the forums political?

And other people have sigs that tell us what sort of hardware they use, what they have for sale, why they hate the government. You don't see me or anyone else taking the piss out of that!

cancan wrote: »

If the gov is not to blame for the idiotic new tax and vrt rules, then who is?

If the gov is not to blame for taxing the life out of motoring in ireland, who is?

That forms the basis of an opinion, not a fact. The new legislation in the Finance Act reduces the burden on the majority of Irish motorists and redistributes it upwards to the welathy who buy 6l Mercs and Beemers. If you think it's too expensive, drive a different car, just like someone in Belgium would if they couldn't afford to keep refuelling it becasue of the level of fuel tax.

We're a small island nationa and revenue has to come from somewhere....it can't come from massively increased taxes on business as we'd have a recession on our hands due to already being an outrageoulsy expensive country to pay wages in. inflation drives wages, but what drives inflation... wage increases!:rolleyes:

It's time the people of this country took a step back and gave themselves (myself included) a slap in the face and tell themselves to cop on. No government is "out to get" the public. That's scurrilous, trollin and obscenely untru accusation.

Taxes are raised, items are taxed that weren't before....it's not fair...but what do you tell your kids when they say it's not fair that Jonny has a Wii and they don't.

I believe the response to me up to 2-3 years ago was "life's not fair, cope with it"

ninty9er

cancan wrote: »

Correct me if I am mistaken, but you were going around with a Fianna Fail sig, and you're telling us we're making the forums political?

I'll refer you to "e)" of my original post, why shouldn't I have that sig?? It's just a show of membership/general support...do you get slagged for supporting a local team?

cancan

OK - I'll spell it out to you.
This is a motors forum.
People here like nice cars.

Your "team" has done more to harm the motorist than anyone else.
Your "team" has made the dream of anyone driving an interesting car that bit more unattainable.
You wear your teams colours in a motoring forum with pride, and wonder why you get grief.

Masada

am i missing something or does this thread have nothing to do with motoring?

Orange69

No offense 99 but almost everyone i know considers FF to be a bunch of incompetent bumbling cretins who are an embarrassment to the Irish people. I am amazed that any intelligent person could support them, especially someone from Limerick. Every time i see that ignorant fool Willie O'Dea i actually cringe. And Bertie with his ludicrous "that money was resting in my account" tales at the Mahon tribunal is just an insult to any educated and free thinking person on the island.

Tbh i think a glass of water could run the country better than Fianna Failure. I can see why people get pissed just seeing your sig.

Hows that for a political comment?

blastman

ninty9er wrote: »

I'll refer you to "e)" of my original post, why shouldn't I have that sig?? It's just a show of membership/general support...do you get slagged for supporting a local team?

If you are so keen to show your support for a "team", then you can expect those that hold a contrary opinion to let you know what they think. The fact that that what your "team" does relates to almost every aspect of everyday life for people in this country (unlike, say, a sports team or a TV programme, which is more specific) and are deeply unpopular in many quarters means you can expect a few opinions heading your way.

If you don't like it, don't broadcast it.

astraboy

Ok, FF are in Government. They screwed and continue the Irish motorist. Your pal Bertie was the one to introduce VRT, a tax that is literally killing Irish motorists as it is applied to safety features! This forum is a motors forum, frequented by car enthusiasts(though I wonder sometimes). If you broadcast your political leanings, then expect some backlash if your chosen party has done everything to screw the Irish motorist, and the Irish car enthusiast even more. I welcome your posts in the Motors forum, but putting that in your sig invites comments that turn things political.

If FF wish to take credit for the hard work the Irish people have put in to get the country to where it is, they need to take responsibility for the mistakes of their rule too. All they do is pass the buck, and no one in government is accountable. They all get nice salaries, nice kickbacks by sitting on committees and a great pension.

I know FF have done some great things, much as it pains me to say it, but the seeds of celtic tiger were also sown by rainbow governments and the hard work of government agencies like the IDA that work no matter who is in power.

Basically people take issue with you as you have a connection with the party. People in this country feel like they are not listened to and that the Government act like "ye voted us in, were safe for another 5 years". If you can't take the comments, take down your sig, otherwise put up with it and maybe mention to your party a bit of responsibility would not go astray.

Seth Brundle

Would this thread have been started if there was a FG led coalition in power?
However, given the quote "The government is NOT TO BLAME for every single one of your problems", I don't recall anyone suggesting that they were to blame. However, it must be said that th government come up with our policies WRT the roads, taxation, etc. so there will undoubtedly be a level of debate about these policies.
In recent months we have had two main policy changes:
* provisional licence reforms
* VRT & motor tax reforms
Both of these were deemed highly unfair. One involved the embarrasment of the RSA by the minister involved (as the RSA were largely unaware of the new reforms), leading to an undermining of the RSA. This provoked a huge level of confusion amongst L drivers over a bank holiday weekend and eventually resulted in a majorly embarrasing U turn.
The taxation reform also appears to be ill conceived with owners of the same type of vehicle being taxed differently depending on when the vehicle was bought (and yet again ignoring the fact that it may not be used on the roads much). It wouldn't surprise me if they had to review this in the next 12 months.
People are entitled to complain about their public representatives. They are also allowed to complain about the policies chosen by these representatives - its what makes a democracy.

Owen

Sorry ninty9er, but I have to disagree. FF have done more to screw over the Irish Motorist that any Government.

Do you remember the fiasco when Independent Insurers went bust? The Government had a fund at one stage to protect against such an outcome, and had a proviso in place to siphon funds from everyone's insurance policy. The only problem was the fund they had put in place was suddenly not available, and the money taken from everyone's insurance policies is still being taken today for no useful purpose. I personally lost over £3000 at the time.

They've introduced penalty points which have done zero to combat road deaths. There's extensive waiting lists for driving tests, a retarded theory test (A pedestrian walks out in front of you, do you (a) Accelerate, or (b) brake) which doesn't teach anyone anything, a pathetic road network despite the billions generated in revenue from road tax and VRT, and now the wonderful news that the motoring enthusiast will be forced financially into economically friendly engines.

FF have done more to piss off the Motorist than anyone else I could possibly imagine.

Padraig Mor

ninty9er wrote: »

The new legislation in the Finance Act reduces the burden on the majority of Irish motorists "

I was under the impression that every single current motorist in the country was facing an motor tax increase of either 9.5% or 11% from February.

alias no.9

Not trying to be smart here ninty9er, you haven't got a leg to stand on when you come on here complaining about others politicising things. You made a claim here on this forum, that VRT had been introduced by FG when in fact it was concocted by none other than your brave leader and tribunal star, Mr Ahern, back in his pre-bank account days when he was finance minister. You did this either in ignorance or with the deliberate intention of misleading others, whichever way, the intent was to slur a political rival. I'm not politically aligned but I can recognise when a government is jaded and bereft of ideas, and one thing that always goes along with such a government is a bunch of blindly loyal supporters prepared to defend the indefensible ad nauseum.

Gandalf23

ninty9er wrote: »

I've just gone on an off topic rant at Gandalf on another thread...politically motivated of course:p:p

Apologies to all for that. I did contemplate a pm, but he got his dig-in publicly so why shouldn't I do the same.

I responded to you in the other post because of your racist comment about the French and "stooping to the French level of intelligence". This comment meets the UN and Oxford English Dictionary definition of racism, and I am not prepared to let comments like that pass without challenge.

You sir are a racist, and no amount of ranting or comment on your behalf will hide that.

ninty9er

ninty9er wrote: »

I've just gone on an off topic rant at Gandalf on another thread...politically motivated of course:p:p

Apologies to all for that. I did contemplate a pm, but he got his dig-in publicly so why shouldn't I do the same.

<rant>
The government is NOT TO BLAME for every single one of your problems. I will defend where I can just as balooba and E92 would had Inda and his Pet Rabbit won the election.

Classic fianna Fail, they have been in power for 15 of the last 20 years yet they have managed to outsource blame to everyone but themselves.

Seems like you are fitting in nicely with the ethic of those Gombeen Men.

I hope you have a happy future with the brown envelope party.:):)

Henry Ford III

You were never going to achieve much on this thread OP.

cantdecide

alias no.9 wrote: »

one thing that always goes along with such a government is a bunch of blindly loyal supporters prepared to defend the indefensible ad nauseum.

I don't believe ANYONE is entirely happy with the government, ecxept anyone who is entirely ignorant about motoring. So remind me what Enda is going to do to relieve the burden and inequity to the motorist??

cancan

And I won't even start on the fact that one of FF's biggest cheerleaders is from the town who recently had the misfortune of having FF completely shaft in the aer lingus/heathrow debacle.

If you support one team vehemently, you run the risk of blindly following their policies, not because you like them, but that you support the people who make them.

An independent mind will in general run a much greater risk in coming up with a proper solution.

Some here care about environmental issues much more than you would believe, and hate to see revenue generating methods being passed off as green initiatives – what is worse is the gullible people who believe them.

alias no.9

cantdecide wrote: »

I don't believe ANYONE is entirely happy with the government, ecxept anyone who is entirely ignorant about motoring. So remind me what Enda is going to do to relieve the burden and inequity to the motorist??

You've quoted me but I'm not entirely sure that your comments were aimed at me? I was talking in general about how our FF friend was happy to try and score political points on motoring issues when it suited him in the past, without the slightest concern that there was no truth in what he was saying, but when people call him on his politics, he then cries foul. He seems to defend the party line regardless of what their position is on any matter without demonstrating a whole lot of independent thought.
I don't think Enda had anything else to offer the motorist but Pat Rabbitte had a very constructive proposal for commuters in the form of a flat €1 fare on dublin bus and all other city bus services which would have helped simplify the whole business of catching the bus and incentivised public transport. By getting out of the car for the daily commute, the money saved on fuel in stop start traffic and maintenance to counteract the extra wear and tear of city driving could allow you to drive something a little more exotic at the weekend.
Overall, I don't think there can be many complaints about the new VRT and Motor Tax regimes. People can avail of the existing regime until july to get a brand new car and will also have the option of any amount of second hand cars, registered here before july, for the foreseeable future. The motor industry are well on the way to lower emissions cars based on carbon tax regimes already brought in across europe, just look at BMW's efficient dynamics. As for the blanket increase in existing motor tax, there hadn't been an increase since 2004 and despite the hysteria, the extra money wouldn't even have paid for a full tank of fuel.

blackbox

We shouldn't all be antagonistic to 99er and FF.

Sure maybe if we're nice to them they'll give us a dig out...

The fact that we've corresponded must make us close personal friends!

E92

The problem with the new Motor Tax system is really simple: someone who buys a greener car now will pay a lot more for a greener car to tax etc than someone who does after July. I think the new VRT system is a much better one than the 'one size fits all' approach that we had before. It is harsh on people who want to buy performance cars etc but you can't please everyone.

The real solution is of course an added tax on fuel.

That is the objection to VRT, and also something else that is often forgotton is the fact that all the Northern motorists coming down to fill up their cars here is making our emissions appear to be worse than they actually are because when they calculate the CO2 emissions from cars under the Kyoto protocal what they do is measure the amount of litres of fuel sold in this country, even though we all know that a significant minority of it is never actually used here. This is contributing towards the fact that we will have to buy €270 million worth of Carbon Credits soon.

I think that for the vast majority of people the new VRT rates will make life better for the motorist. The new tax rates will allow a lot of people to make massive savings on car tax if they choose wisely like someone buying a 530i will pay €600 to tax their car from July compared to €1231 after Feb, while a 520d owner pays just €150 tax on their car(as opposed to €590 after Feb)! Now perhaps I'm incredibly stupid, but can someone explain to me how this is bad for the motorist? Some people will do very badly sure like a 1.6 Mondeo/Avensis owner but if they change to diesel they can have a car that's €290 to tax a year whereas a 1.6 costs €428 from Feb and a 1.6 of either car registered after July will cost €600 to tax.

If people change to diesel on anything Focus sized or up by and large they will save money under the new scheme, and because of the new system they won't cost a lot more if indeed anything to buy over their petrol equivalents.

What the Government made an absolute balls of is announcing the new VRT rates this month and applying them from july when they should have announced it when they got into power early on in the summer and the new rates should be coming in from the 1st of January not July. The motor tax thing is disgraceful though,there is no reason why it couldn't have gone back to any car registered since Jan 2001 because EU law required CO2 data to be publically available from that date for any car sold in the EU.

cantdecide

You've quoted me but I'm not entirely sure that your comments were aimed at me?

I don't believe ANYONE is entirely happy with the government, ecxept anyone who is entirely ignorant about motoring. So remind me what Enda is going to do to relieve the burden and inequity to the motorist??

It is what it appears- You say FF voters are

a bunch of blindly loyal supporters prepared to defend the indefensible ad nauseum

I was making the point that despite your claim, only the tiniest of minorities are "blindly loyal". Probably no greater a number than the blindly loyal core of any party's support. Hence

I don't believe ANYONE is entirely happy with the government.

I know I'm not but if I weren't a keen motorist AND environmentalist, I probably wouldn't know the extent to which were are being fleeced on the pretence of 'Green Policy'. It's all just a mechanism to make it look like we don't pay as much tax as we do- I have no problem with fair tax collection but there's no point in taking from ordinary people who need a reliable new car becasue of a lack of public transport.

He seems to defend the party line regardless of what their position is on any matter without demonstrating a whole lot of independent thought.

I agree, it's not healthey to never question. There's also too many people who turn it into a 'kick 'em out' debate who would rather moan about the problem than discuss a solution.

I don't think Enda had anything else to offer the motorist

On the motoring issue (only) is it fair to pull the 'anyone but Bertie' card, then. Eamonn Ryan suggested 2c on fuel and abolish VRT that's fair- VRT is immoral anyway. They could add 5c to petrol and take 5c off diesel too if they were really concerned, but they're not.

getting out of the car for the daily commute

Pat Rabbitte had a very constructive proposal for commuters in the form of a flat €1 fare on dublin bus and all other city bus services

Calloo callay- still no use to me and a lot like me and it's barely a start.

a little more exotic at the weekend

We're not allowed- we're bad people if we do that, remember.

The motor industry are well on the way to lower emissions cars

As they should

existing motor tax, there hadn't been an increase since 2004

Road tax has always been too much here especially when you consider how much else we pay for motoring

cashmni1

-->alias No9:
People can avail of the existing regime until july to get a brand new car and will also have the option of any amount of second hand cars, registered here before july, for the foreseeable future. The motor industry are well on the way to lower emissions cars based on carbon tax regimes already brought in across europe, just look at BMW's efficient dynamics. As for the blanket increase in existing motor tax, there hadn't been an increase since 2004 and despite the hysteria, the extra money wouldn't even have paid for a full tank of fuel.
Just because there has not been an increase in Motor tax for the last couple of years, (3), does not mean it is OK to increase it. "just a tank of fuel", Well just give me a tank of fuel and we will call it quits? Eh?
A tank of fuel is over €50 for most of us.
No, Lets make the world a better place by FORCING the motorist to buy more CO2 efficient cars. I agree with reducing CO2 emmissions, yes i do, but not in this manner. This is also not really going to make a huge difference if also not enforced on to the Trucks, Busses and Diesel trains, or is it?
My point being (along with others I have read here), is that the Irish motorist is being unfairly treated by the current government. We have been for quite some time now and this time in our current ecnomical climate, it is just too much, espically for the enthusiast !!

alias no.9

cantdecide wrote: »

Probably no greater a number than the blindly loyal core of any party's support.

You're probably right, the difference being the rest arent in power so they don't spend their time defending the government despite obvious incompetance so you don't really notice them. It's probably true of any government party anywhere but it's so long since we've had a government led by anyone other than FF for any length of time that it's easy to write off as a FF trait.

alias no.9

cashmni1 wrote: »

Just because there has not been an increase in Motor tax for the last couple of years, (3), does not mean it is OK to increase it. "just a tank of fuel", Well just give me a tank of fuel and we will call it quits? Eh?
A tank of fuel is over €50 for most of us.

My point is that as it stood, tax on a 2l is €539, it's going up 9% to ~€587. In the greater scheme of the running costs of a car, it's not that big an increase, that's why I used the tank of fuel analogy. Given the irish psyche, they'll probably flee from their 2 litres in droves, the resale of these cars will drop any it may even be possible to pick up a decent second hand one at an extra €500 or €1000 discount compared to what it might have cost if the tax regime hadn't changed. That will pay the increased road tax for a few years wouldn't it?

cashmni1 wrote: »

No, Lets make the world a better place by FORCING the motorist to buy more CO2 efficient cars. I agree with reducing CO2 emmissions, yes i do, but not in this manner. This is also not really going to make a huge difference if also not enforced on to the Trucks, Busses and Diesel trains, or is it?
My point being (along with others I have read here), is that the Irish motorist is being unfairly treated by the current government. We have been for quite some time now and this time in our current ecnomical climate, it is just too much, espically for the enthusiast !!

The burden on motorists always was and continues to be excessive. People who want cheap reliable transport will benefit greatly from the changes in VRT and tax. I'd love to see VRT and motor tax abolished and switch to a tax on fuel but I think, on balance, the new system is an improvement over the old one. If they'd abolished VRT and replaced it by taxing fuel, resale values of cars would have been wiped out and everybody would have moaned and bitched about that too.

I really don't know how I've ended up in a position of defending this government :eek:. I feel all dirty.

pburns

Sorry ninty9er, I saw the previous thread where you essentially complained you were being attacked because of your "political beliefs". Now that did make me laugh! FFers have 'political beliefs' !?!?!?!!!

You're like your esteemed leader, lashing out and blaming everybody else. Either take the flak or take down the FF badge off your profile. It has no significence in a motoring forum anyway.

ninty9er

I do remember posting that FG introduced VRT, I was mistaken....and believe I said so at the time.

FG was also the party (and this is before my time so I again am not 100%), as my dad constantly bemoans, even though apolitical and a floating voter, that changed the cost of taxing his car from £5 to something ludicrous like £60 in the space of one budget. now that's a 1100% increase in 1 budget. Anyone remember the children's shoes??

NOw they're all aimed at a government, where it really p1sses me off is when I get personally attacked for supposrting the party that's done more to bring this country into the 21st century than any other and the only one that hasn't lost an election since 1982, when 5 years of FG government gave us the above scandals, thought the first one I'm not very familiar with.

So if you want to bitch and moan grand, but I don't go around making pig ignorant statements like
"how could anyone with a conscience/any bit of intelligence support Fianna Fáil" or "The brown envelope party" Fianna Fáil is an organisation of over 80,000 members. Making claims like that is making a mockery of decent people like me or any of my hardworking, upstanding colleagues, regardless of 10 people taking bribes in the 80 and 90s

If you can conclude that 80,000 people are idiots from a sample of ten then I suggest from my speaking to 5 motorists that everyt motorist in the country is overjoyed at the new tax regime for motoring.

Don't make this personal was a very strong issue in my OP!!

peasant

ninty9er wrote: »

Don't make this personal was a very strong issue in my OP!!

In that case I would strongly suggest that you personally refrain from shoving your political conviction down everybody elses throat unasked via your signature.

that

...or just stop moaning and take the flak ...to the politics forum, if possible.

galwaytt

peasant wrote: »

In that case I would strongly suggest that you personally refrain from shoving your political conviction down everybody elses throat unasked via your signature.

that

...or just stop moaning and take the flak ...to the politics forum, if possible.

indeed !!

Off with his head !!

E92

ninty9er wrote: »

FG was also the party (and this is before my time so I again am not 100%), as my dad constantly bemoans, even though apolitical and a floating voter, that changed the cost of taxing his car from £5 to something ludicrous like £60 in the space of one budget. now that's a 1100% increase in 1 budget. Anyone remember the children's shoes??

NOw they're all aimed at a government, where it really p1sses me off is when I get personally attacked for supposrting the party that's done more to bring this country into the 21st century than any other and the only one that hasn't lost an election since 1982, when 5 years of FG government gave us the above scandals, thought the first one I'm not very familiar with.

And who introduced VRT? And who thought that it would be a good idea to split it into 3 bands on engine size? And who thought that the penal 30% tax code wasn't severe enough so decided it should apply to anything over 1900cc? And who has given us the RSA an organisation you have been highly critical of on several occasions here on Motors whenever we have one of those debates on speeding(FWIW FG is in favour of speed cameras but they only want them in accident blackspots not on Motorways, safe roads etc)

In contrast, who introduced the scrappage scheme, giving the motorist £1000 for trading in their old car?

the "scandels" you mention about FG+Lab are storms in a tea cup really(though the tax on the childrens shoes was a stupid idea of course)(I don't know about the motor tax one). Now political leaders giving themselves a pay hike that is more than the average industrial wage, all the corruption etc(I know FG had Lowry but you'll note he was shafted straight away by John Bruton and is now in a FF led Govt and I realise that not everyone in FG was or is sqeaky clean either but in the whole scheme of things they are nothing compared to FF) obsene waste of public money a la PPARS, e-voting are scandels.

Orange69

ninty9er wrote: »

So if you want to bitch and moan grand, but I don't go around making pig ignorant statements like
"how could anyone with a conscience/any bit of intelligence support Fianna Fáil" or "The brown envelope party" Fianna Fáil is an organisation of over 80,000 members. Making claims like that is making a mockery of decent people like me or any of my hardworking, upstanding colleagues, regardless of 10 people taking bribes in the 80 and 90s

Woah! now i cant let that one go by without comment!

How can you say that what is currently going on at the Mahon tribunal is not a mockery of every hard working person is Ireland. The whole "dig out" story is so retarded it beggars belief.. And then we have a minister of finance without a bank account? Bouts of collective amnesia? Bags of cash in hotel bedroom wardrobes? etc.. This is the now leader of the FF party we are talking about.. not some 3rd world crack pot dictator (although the similarities are quite striking )

If Bertie came out and said "Ya, i took those bribes, but it was a different time back then, i apologize and will return the money." i would have more respect for the man, but the current cock and bull stories show a lack of backbone and respect for the voters of Ireland. As an educated Irish man i find that an utter insult.

And thats only a drop in the Bucket, what about the fact that the Government knew about the Shannon slots fiasco 6 weeks before anyone else yet did nothing. And what about the FF representatives in the west actually voting against government intervention (25% share) to maintain the strategic shannon-heathrow service..?? That my friend is a complete failure to represent.

I'm sorry but any Limerick person (or anyone from the west in general) supporting FF is a fool indeed!