Green party - Imposing their morals on us?

Setun

beanyb wrote:

The new taxation system only applies to cars bought from July 2008. That's when it's being implemented. John Gormley said he wasnt bringing it in retrospectively to allow people to make their car choice on this basis in the future, but without punishing people for the cars that they had purchased before this measure was introduced. So you'll be paying the same tax you are now.

Well that's good news

But still though, how much do you think will the road tax deter someone from buying a 4x4? I'm a bit sceptical, I think there would have been better ways of taxing cars. *two thumbs down*

Gegerty

ven0m wrote: »

If they had half as much brains as the verbal diahorea that came out of their mouths, they'd be more credible & wouldn't be seen as such radicals.

They haven't got enough money to hire spin doctors....yet. they'll get better at covering their verbal diahorrea in time, just like the others.

ScumLord

I don't think the greens are educated in whats green they've just got on there high horse and got thick, ignorant about everyone else following what they read of a website somewhere.

Those energy saving bulbs are full of toxic chemicals, if you break one your supposed to fumigate the room and touching whats inside them will poison you.

That hybrid car was no more economical than your average diesel when it came out (I don't know if they did anything to improve that).

We should just get into heavy polluting and enjoy our last days on earth.

ven0m

Gegerty wrote: »

They haven't got enough money to hire spin doctors....yet. they'll get better at covering their verbal diahorrea in time, just like the others.

Maybe they should follow someone's lead & have a whip-around ..........


:::: ven0mous ::::

TheVan

Daddio wrote: »

What about the people who can't afford to change their cars? Our family won't be able to afford to change to a lighter car for some years, what with numerous other bills taking precedent for the moment, so we'll presumably be taxed more on our current car.

Well, afaik, the new taxes only apply to cars bought after June 2008 (or at least sometime in 2008) so your family won't be affected in any way. It just means that when you go to buy a new car, the incentive is there to buy a low-emissions car.

Ned78 wrote:

B*llocks to that. It removes choice from people's lives. There's little left in this country to enjoy these days, and now the opportunity to drive nice cars is on the way out too.

Lexus make a hybrid. That's a pretty nice car.

Also the opportunity to buy a "nice" (read high-emissions) car is not gone out the window....you still have a choice. An incentive just exists to nudge you one way. But its still your choice.

Also, RobAMerc - worst reply ever. Try actually substantiating your criticism.

DonkeyStyle \o/

I think Bertie had it right... the best way to reduce our emissions would be mass suicide.
Maybe some tax incentive would help.

ScumLord

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

I think Bertie had it right... the best way to reduce our emissions would be mass suicide.
Maybe some tax incentive would help.

"If you kill your self we won't charge you tax." It just might work..

ven0m

TheVan wrote: »

Well, afaik, the new taxes only apply to cars bought after June 2008 (or at least sometime in 2008) so your family won't be affected in any way. It just means that when you go to buy a new car, the incentive is there to buy a low-emissions car.



Lexus make a hybrid. That's a pretty nice car.

Also the opportunity to buy a "nice" (read high-emissions) car is not gone out the window....you still have a choice. An incentive just exists to nudge you one way. But its still your choice.

Also, RobAMerc - worst reply ever. Try actually substantiating your criticism.

Lexus - the company who redesigned suspension struts on the SC430 roadster because the existing design would break on irish roads as they found on on several models tested down in cork. The resulting change increased car weight & full efficiency went down the bog - not to mention Lexus jacked the price up ridiculously for the Irish model.

Lexus is an over-priced toyota. Lexus could build equivalents of the Prius from their parent company, but won't - cos it'd dilute their brand (if you can call it that) in the U.S., where Lexus' primary market exists.

Irish roads are SO bad, a model of car was overhauled at a phenomenal cost for the Irish market. If Irish roads were in better state, fuel efficiency would also increase. This is a simple fact. Yet do greens care - ask the ar*e end of my b*****ks!!!!!!!!

No matter what way you wanna take this eco talk crapology from government or political circles, the one industry in ireland which is causing MORE carbon emissions than anything is the tech industry with energy hungry I.T. infrastructure through colocation, a refusal to issue black-out policies on Office space, or use technologies from comm's rooms or data centres to heat the rest of the building. Nothing will be said to them, as this sector is Irish bread & butter & has been since Intel were handed the keys to the Irish tax payer's pockets along with Hewlett Packard.

The green party won't even push with it's european green counterparts to motion that ALL electrical & technology goods must comply with WEEE rules & legislation for recyclability because it'd kill people like Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo & others named recently in reports. "The seriousness" echo-ed in soundbytes by John Gormless & his cronies is nothing more than pulpit politics to color a smash and grab on people's pockets instead of being serious agenda issues with viable plans of action addressing the correct issues.

Gormly used to make it a point of how he shunned having a car to go to work & took his bike. Will he refuse to use Microsoft software because of the poor ratings they recently received in an EU wide report on tech manufacturer failings on green compliancy issues? Hell no. Until government grows a pair & stands up against big business which generates much of the problems, these issues should not be passed onto the average man on the steet as being 'the sole cause of the problem'.



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Blitzkrieger

TheVan wrote: »

All of the Green measures improve the stance of the country environmentally. To complain about these measures in the mindless fashion above, is to take a small-minded, self-serving view of the world.

Answer question a before saying that.

Cutting emissions on cars is going to do very little to cut the amount of greenhouse gases emitted in ireland, and if you really wanted to cut the carbon emissions from cars, you'd invest in proper public transport rather than the muppet show that is the Luas.

TheVan wrote: »

Lexus make a hybrid. That's a pretty nice car.

If you look at the 'dust to dust' footprint of those cars, a good diesel is way kinder to the environment.

I'm not an expert on green issues by any means but maybe you should get some sort of clue before commenting?

justcallmetex

Strange innit how Governments seem to be believing all of a sudden that taxation is the answer to "man made global warming"

Now I might be wrong but my car doesn't have lower emissions just cause I renew my car tax.

ven0m

justcallmetex wrote: »

Strange innit how Governments seem to be believing all of a sudden that taxation is the answer to "man made global warming"

Now I might be wrong but my car doesn't have lower emissions just cause I renew my car tax.

This is the crux of the flaw in the "new green policy"



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Gegerty

ScumLord wrote: »

"If you kill your self we won't charge you tax." It just might work..

What about "if you kill your neighbour you'll pay less tax"

christo82

ned78 wrote: »

B*llocks to that. It removes choice from people's lives. There's little left in this country to enjoy these days, and now the opportunity to drive nice cars is on the way out too.

The choice to pay more for your car is still there!

Gegerty

justcallmetex wrote: »

Strange innit how Governments seem to be believing all of a sudden that taxation is the answer to "man made global warming"

Now I might be wrong but my car doesn't have lower emissions just cause I renew my car tax.

the facts are that taxing the cr*p out of stuff does actually work, unless its something addictive like cigarettes and alcohol. The greens would have luas's all over the country if they could. But they can't, so the best they can do is tax the boll*x off you if you buy a high CO2 car. What else do you expect them to do, realistically. We all know were nothing in the grand scheme of things but if nothing else if we get cleaner cars on the road at least outr local environment will be a lot more plesant.

ven0m

Gegerty wrote: »

the facts are that taxing the cr*p out of stuff does actually work, unless its something addictive like cigarettes and alcohol. The greens would have luas's all over the country if they could. But they can't, so the best they can do is tax the boll*x off you if you buy a high CO2 car. What else do you expect them to do, realistically. We all know were nothing in the grand scheme of things but if nothing else if we get cleaner cars on the road at least outr local environment will be a lot more plesant.

Actually - this is not true. If you read through Irish Car industry papers, you'd see add-ons are becoming more popular at dealerships, & often multiples of these are purchased & these negate any carbon emission savings, or make the changes very minimal unless you own an electric car, or you go to buy this new electric car Honda want to release next year (looks like an updated Accord tbh).

Money from road tax doesn't go on roads or the environment, so it's not going to the issues associated through causality. tax money taken from areas related, rarely goes to it's associated problems.

The environment will not be more pleasant. This is such a catch-22 people don't realise. Farming will become more intensive, as more crops are harvested for bio-fuels. People are already unhappy at bread price increases relating to a shortage of crops for bread production as instead the materials are going towards commerical bio-fuel production. All this is doing is moving the problem around a bit like musical chairs.

Until the 'huggy' relationship between governments & big businesses are broken, we're all f**ked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But where would thir big brown envelopes come from then ................. another catch 22



:::: ven0mous ::::

Sonnenblumen

ven0m wrote: »

Until the 'huggy' relationship between governments & big businesses are broken, we're all f**ked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:::: ven0mous ::::

What a load of crap, what 'huggy relationship', I mean what perfect scenario do you dream of where enterprise thrives et all?

There are so many nobodies who are dependent on the State for work, if the country was an enterprising dynamo perhaps we could iron out a few wrinkles. The reality is that increasingily stupid policy makers are pushing more discrimnatory rules that are ultimately making the country increasingily uncompetitive.

This little country should hug big business not shirk it.

ven0m

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

What a load of crap, what 'huggy relationship', I mean what perfect scenario do you dream of where enterprise thrives et all?

There are so many nobodies who are dependent on the State for work, if the country was an enterprising dynamo perhaps we could iron out a few wrinkles. The reality is that increasingily stupid policy makers are pushing more discrimnatory rules that are ultimately making the country increasingily uncompetitive.

This little country should hug big business not shirk it.

It's far too huggy in terms of it will not chase business about green responsibilities & environmental issues. Allowing businesses to buy carbon credits so they can claim 'carbon neutrality' is a joke. Intel have poluted the area around Leixlip with gases (more dust has appeared in the air in leixlip than ever), increased car traffic, not to mention the landscape was left like a tip for so bloody long with their expansion etc..

I am tired of hearing the Green's bandy about 'save the planet', when the second they get into a position to do something about it - the first people they go after is Joe Soap, while business which is the biggest poluter gets a pass ......... so tell me if that's not too 'huggy'??


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Kurtosis

ven0m wrote: »

Actually - this is not true. If you read through Irish Car industry papers, you'd see add-ons are becoming more popular at dealerships, & often multiples of these are purchased & these negate any carbon emission savings, or make the changes very minimal unless you own an electric car, or you go to buy this new electric car Honda want to release next year (looks like an updated Accord tbh).

You're assuming someone buying a hybrid car will go for add-ons and if they were buying a high emissions car they would not. If someone wants them, the add-ons will be bought in either case, so as the add-ons are constant, this talk of them negating the savings on emissions is ridiculous!

gerky

Theres a lot of stuff being said in this thread without anything to back it up.
As regards emissions industry isn't the biggest emitter agriculture is(about 28%) then energy(about 22%) then transport(about 20%) then industry(about 17%).

Blitzkrieger

A quick google doesn't find me a source to back it up, but iirc transport is about 8% in ireland. 8% of greenhouse gases that is - it's easy to find figures for C02 that are closer to 20%.

jamesblonde

ven0m wrote: »

Next time you see a green party member on your door, ask them why they do no motion for campaign & electrion posters to be made illegal, as they also create litter, & often use non-biodegradable materials including the cable ties, not to mention dirty big vans being used to drive 20 yards at a time from lamp-post to lamp-post to put them up, which are all un-neccesary vehicle journeys.

I said this to the green in my area & he slammed my own sliding door on me at election time this year without giving me an answer. I complained to the green party HQ & Trevor Sargent personally rung me to apologise.

This is a party who cannot even stand over it's own policies on 'being green'. Even when it comes to their own I.T. infrastructure, they are one of the less green I've ever seen. They use systems with poor green ratings. I'll bet various parts of my anatomy to the fact they do NOT have a 'black-out' policy for their offices after hours & I will also bet their electricity bill is with the ESB & not something like Airtricity or another green power supply company .....

I've no time for the green party. I've little time for political parties - but even less time for them & their hypocrisy.
:::: ven0mous ::::

You obviously have way too much time on your hands for complaining.
Why not try and do something constructive with your life?
Green policies are about improving the world for *everybody* (including you). That also includes future generations. Other Irish parties have no notion of long-term policies, only building on the lake and lining their pockets while they're at it.

justcallmetex

Thinkin back to the time when nobody believed or gave a toss about "global warming" was great when you were being advised to change to low energy bulbs cause they'll save you money or get better insulation cause it'll save you money. Now it's do X,Y and Z and pay tax on it too

In case you've not worked it out I really don't buy in to man made global warming if anybody is interested heres some interesting food for thought:

http://fathersforlife.org/REA/warming4.htm

ven0m

gerky wrote: »

Theres a lot of stuff being said in this thread without anything to back it up.
As regards emissions industry isn't the biggest emitter agriculture is(about 28%) then energy(about 22%) then transport(about 20%) then industry(about 17%).

Actually - the data centre industry is. It accounts for 2% of world industry yet contributes to more than 28% of carbon emissions through its power draw. It is an industry accepted fact.



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ven0m

jamesblonde wrote: »

You obviously have way too much time on your hands for complaining.
Why not try and do something constructive with your life?
Green policies are about improving the world for *everybody* (including you). That also includes future generations. Other Irish parties have no notion of long-term policies, only building on the lake and lining their pockets while they're at it.

I complained as I had a politician damage my property. I think I had a right to, or do you think it's acceptible for someone to knock on YOUR door & then damage it because you ask a perfectly resonable question?


Please leave personal attacks out of it.



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Setun

I think the main stroke of genius with the greens election campaign for me was that they actually led us to believe they weren't a mob of capitalist double-standard hypocrites.

Sell. Outs.

Blitzkrieger

Why are all the people calling us moaners for criticising the greens doing nothing but moaning at us?

Victor

RobAMerc wrote: »

Green party - Imposing their morals on us?

So when you are engaged in the Robbery of A Mercedes aren't you imposing your morals on others?

gerky

For starters I’m not moaning I’m just telling you my views which are just as valid as yours.

The figures I used are as far as I know the latest official figures.

And I’m not a big fan of any politician but I consider the greens the best of a bad lot.

I’m not sure how exactly their sellouts they refused government mercs they cycle or use public transport whenever possible and the are bringing in laws and regulations to try and benefit the environment.

If you want them to bring in the big changes that need to be brought in then elect them as a majority, a small fish in a big dirty pond is never going to be able to make huge changes.

dragonkin

Although CFLs are more complicated and require more components to make one lasts much longer than an incandescent bulb. So in terms of manufacturing is one CFL worse than say 3 incandescents including separate packaging and shipping.
Where are the facts I had a look but couldn't find much info.

I recommend people read the IPCC Summary if they are not completely convinced of the impact of man on global warming.

The reality is that people are going to have to make changes, often inconvenient changes. The Government will have to take a role as it is against peoples natural inclinations or interests to make these changes so they need to be made at a measured pace.

CFLs substantially reduce emissions and should be used.

Higher emission cars are more damaging to the environment therefore impacting negatively on me and future generations so I am fully in support of any incentives to stop people using them. Similar logic to putting smokers outside the pub. Although I do agree that more needs to be done but you have to start somewhere.

I agree there are a lot of 'facts' being branded around here with no data to back them up.

Lord Nikon

Daddio wrote: »

As far as I can see, all the green party have done is brought in new taxes/made certain materials more expensive.

This is probably what every government has done since the beginning of time.