Not paying VRT on an M3 (moved from importing thread)

m3boy

well robert you certinaly sound like you know your stuff, i really want to import a bmw m3 , im young and aint got alot of money and noticed they were a lot cheaper over in the uk and that there is a much bigger selection , i hear alot of talk about something called a v5 form and difficulties obtaining the other half from the seller which the vrt office require and there can be problems over this ?
also i would like the m3 registered as say .... ah 320 or something , how can this be done , many garages have offered me the service of registering the car on the logbook with a lower ccengine but how could i do this my self if it says m3 on the form , and even if the form somehow didnt say m3 on it because it was altered someway dont the vrt people look at the car , surley they would notice it was an m3 , your help would be greatly appriciated many thanks
colin

Chaz

m3boy wrote: »

well robert you certinaly sound like you know your stuff, i really want to import a bmw m3 , im young and aint got alot of money and noticed they were a lot cheaper over in the uk and that there is a much bigger selection , i hear alot of talk about something called a v5 form and difficulties obtaining the other half from the seller which the vrt office require and there can be problems over this ?
also i would like the m3 registered as say .... ah 320 or something , how can this be done , many garages have offered me the service of registering the car on the logbook with a lower ccengine but how could i do this my self if it says m3 on the form , and even if the form somehow didnt say m3 on it because it was altered someway dont the vrt people look at the car , surley they would notice it was an m3 , your help would be greatly appriciated many thanks
colin

Forget about trying to screw the system. An M3 is known, any reasonable person that inspects the car will know its a M3 versus 320.

The V5 should be no issue, just get it from seller and complete all details yourself.

I looked at an M3 before I bought my Porsche in via the UK/NI. The biggest concern with an M3 is being hit with 'perks' tax where they might look at leather, sunroof, heated seats, sound system, whatever else and load the VRT. Due to this risk (and other factors) I abandoned the idea of importing an M3. Then again, what model are you looking at? E30-36, easier, E46 perhaps tricky as the change in 5% value can hurt your pocket quickly.

If you are really skint, you shoulnt be driving an M3 in the first place as you wont be able to maintain it.

I did a cost analysis and if you were doing it right (and not doing it right can cost lots more, like blown / damaged engines and parts), I would need to budget around €150-250 EXTRA, just for maintainence elements.

Just my 2cents.

m3boy

well its really for road tax and insurance purposes that i want it logged as a 320 or something, ill never get insurance on a m3 never mind get a high quote,
its the convertable model i want, most of them already have leather seats etc, im not sure what e it is i think the e36 was looking at a 1996-1998 model

nogoodnamesleft

When you take in the car into the VRO office they will first check out the V5 reg doc and make note of make, model, VIN Number, Engine number as well as cc's. They will then inspect the car and check that they match. They wont take any paper stickers under the bonnet either for the VIN. They checked in 2 different places in the car I brought in. In the VRO office they have a list of engine numbers for different make and models of cars. They can easily check to see what bhp it is. It would also be fairly obvious by looking under the bonnet of the 3 series that it isnt a 2litre engine.:D

As another poster said M3 are expensive cars to run. Tax insurance, Tyres servicing and parts will be expensive.

gmb

m3boy wrote: »

i hear alot of talk about something called a v5 form and difficulties obtaining the other half from the seller which the vrt office require and there can be problems over this ?

The system in the UK has changed - the buyer used to be given the V5 vehicle registration document which he or she would send to the DVLA office in Swansea. I guess if you were exporting the car then you would simply hold onto the document and take it to the VRT office instead

Now the process is different, the V5C registration document has to be sent by the SELLER to the DVLA in Swansea to register the sale. The buyer just gets a small tear off slip with the reg number and other details and waits for the DVLA to send the new documents to them once the seller has sent in the forms.

I can see how this could cause difficulties now when buying a car to bring back to Ireland. If someone has been through the process with the new V5C registration document I'd be interested to know what to do.

Tails142

The system in the UK has changed - the buyer used to be given the V5 vehicle registration document which he or she would send to the DVLA office in Swansea. I guess if you were exporting the car then you would simply hold onto the document and take it to the VRT office instead

Now the process is different, the V5C registration document has to be sent by the SELLER to the DVLA in Swansea to register the sale. The buyer just gets a small tear off slip with the reg number and other details and waits for the DVLA to send the new documents to them once the seller has sent in the forms.

I can see how this could cause difficulties now when buying a car to bring back to Ireland. If someone has been through the process with the new V5C registration document I'd be interested to know what to do.

Its says this elsewhere in this thread, but anyway; there is a small purple section on the v5c, it has the title "Permanent Export" or something similiar, you fill this out and give it to the person you're buying the car off, you take the rest of the form, all of it except the small little tiny purple part that you put your details on and give back to them.

blastman

gmb, you've got your facts the wrong way around, what Tails said above is right, although the puple part that the seller sends to the DVLA doesn't contain your (the buyer's) details. Once they know the car is exported they no longer care who owns it.

m3boy, is it just the revenue and the VRT crowd you're hoping to fool or is there more to this daft scheme of yours?

m3boy

m3boy, is it just the revenue and the VRT crowd you're hoping to fool or is there more to this daft scheme of yours?[/quote]


Yes its just the revenue and the vrt , y would there be someone else i could fool?
its purley for cheap vrt,road tax and insurance purposes
so how can garages bring all the cars over and offer them with lower cc's on the log book but im unable to do it my self ? there obviously has to be a loophole or something if the garages can do it :rolleyes:

Chaz

m3boy wrote: »

m3boy, is it just the revenue and the VRT crowd you're hoping to fool or is there more to this daft scheme of yours?

Yes its just the revenue and the vrt , y would there be someone else i could fool?
its purley for cheap vrt,road tax and insurance purposes
so how can garages bring all the cars over and offer them with lower cc's on the log book but im unable to do it my self ? there obviously has to be a loophole or something if the garages can do it :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Its called fraud and in most countries come with a free jail term.

PauloMN

m3boy wrote: »

Yes its just the revenue and the vrt , y would there be someone else i could fool?
its purley for cheap vrt,road tax and insurance purposes
so how can garages bring all the cars over and offer them with lower cc's on the log book but im unable to do it my self ? there obviously has to be a loophole or something if the garages can do it :rolleyes:

If you're planning to attempt to bring in an M3 as a 320, why bother getting insured in the first place? Might as well just break the law by having no insurance and road tax at all. Print off some fake discs or something, who'd know? :rolleyes:

Cop on FFS.

m3boy

Firs of all i dont consider it fraud at all and ill explain why, The government over here would be making just as much money as the uk government would make from me if i were to do it above board over there , why should i pay extra money for having the privilege of driving the car ob irish roads lol

i wouldnt drive with no tax and insurance , i would how ever pay less then i should for tax and insurance therefor giving me innapropiate cover but i wouldnt mind that, because its the moral that counts that everyone should get a fair cut of the pie,
im not a fool although most of the people here seem to think i am

im absolutely shocked that the majority of people on the fourm seem to support paying extreamily high tax rates on the money they earn , and what little bit of money they manage to save they seem to think that it is perfectly moral and ok for the government to charge extortionate rates of vrt and are more than happy to pay 5 times the price for motor insurance compared to the uk.

so for those of you who aprove of the government and rip off ireland thats fine ,
i dont mind paying reasonable amounts of tax but i refuse to support the likes of berti put him self on a 100k salary while receiving brown envelopes not to mention purchasing expensive 10,000 euro time pieces as gifts for other members of parliament who you can be sure are returning the favor

My point being i would be alot more happy if my vrt was spent on improving our roads as they are a disscrace but NO, OH NO! not out government they feel its much more appropriate to errect a spire in o connol street or perhaps the use of a private helicopter for mary herney to visit her friends?lol

well call me a fraudster if you wish foe enquiring about the possibility of of paying fair tax and insurance prices but if you do then i feel you are the criminal by supporting the government in its corruption ,

anyone took a look at the cost of buying taxing and insuring a car over in the uk which has great roads ? does it not seem odd that they can do it over there for less than half the price , why cant we use there system?*cough cough corruption

JohnCleary

It's not whether you consider it fraud or not, thats up to the Insurance company to consider

For the love of god insure your M3 properly (But judging by the tone of your posts you'll never come close) or you'll be on here again in a few months asking for advise because the Insurance company wouldn't pay out after your car got wrote off

BTW - What would you do if your M3 was stolen. All you'd get paid out on is for a 320 - You'd lose a hell of a lot of money

I don't like paying insurance or tax either, but I have no choice. What makes you so special that you feel you should be exempt? If it's because 'you cant afford it' then you can't afford an M3

m3boy

i can afford one i just dont see why i should be ripped off

Tails142

Firs of all i dont consider it fraud at all and ill explain why, The government over here would be making just as much money as the uk government would make from me if i were to do it above board over there , why should i pay extra money for having the privilege of driving the car ob irish roads lol

It's fraud, even if you don't think it is. UK drivers pay higher tax on fuel; that's why petrol in NI works out about €1.50 a litre. It's also a completly different country so really has no bearing. If you like the UK so much go live there.

i wouldnt drive with no tax and insurance , i would how ever pay less then i should for tax and insurance therefor giving me innapropiate cover but i wouldnt mind that, because its the moral that counts that everyone should get a fair cut of the pie,
im not a fool although most of the people here seem to think i am

So what if you kill someone or leave them handicapped after an accident; are you gonna pay their medical expenses for the rest of their lives?

im absolutely shocked that the majority of people on the fourm seem to support paying extreamily high tax rates on the money they earn ,

Ireland has relatively low tax rates compared to other countries in Europe.

and what little bit of money they manage to save they seem to think that it is perfectly moral and ok for the government to charge extortionate rates of vrt and are more than happy to pay 5 times the price for motor insurance compared to the uk.

The government are the government; they can charge us what they like, otherwise vote for someone else.

so for those of you who aprove of the government and rip off ireland thats fine ,
i dont mind paying reasonable amounts of tax but i refuse to support the likes of berti put him self on a 100k salary while receiving brown envelopes

His salary is in the range of 330k not including expenses. He will also pay tax at 42% on the majority of this. After his term in goverment his pension will be roughly 50% of this salary which he will receive annually; on top of the standard state pension that he will get from paying PRSI and more than likely other salaries and payment for chairing various boards.

not to mention purchasing expensive 10,000 euro time pieces as gifts for other members of parliament who you can be sure are returning the favor

Never really heard of anything like this; visitors from other states get token presents. Bertie's presents have been reported as being notoriously crap though, leaders from other countries have received €50 pens in the past.

My point being i would be alot more happy if my vrt was spent on improving our roads as they are a disscrace but NO, OH NO! not out government they feel its much more appropriate to errect a spire in o connol street or perhaps the use of a private helicopter for mary herney to visit her friends?lol

County Councils use their budgets to improve the roads and motorways. They get their funding from the central fund which is doled out by the NRA.

well call me a fraudster if you wish foe enquiring about the possibility of of paying fair tax and insurance prices but if you do then i feel you are the criminal by supporting the government in its corruption ,

anyone took a look at the cost of buying taxing and insuring a car over in the uk which has great roads ? does it not seem odd that they can do it over there for less than half the price , why cant we use there system?*cough cough corruption

Yeah all we need is about 45 million more people in the country - and if we had a time machine we could go back to the 60's and start building our road network like they did in Britain... oh wait... they country was in the grip of serious economic depression then.

You may have noticed in the papers a garage having all its cars seized recently and several people being arrested. They were doing exactly what you propose - they had an inside man in the VRO putting cars on the system as lesser models so they'd pay less VRT. Now they've been caught up with and are getting their just desserts.

The_Conductor

m3boy wrote:

i can afford one i just dont see why i should be ripped off

No-one should be ripped off.
Everyone should obey the laws of the land, including their obligations to make truthful disclosures to their insurance companies and the revenue commissioners.
You are looking for ways to evade tax and make false declarations to your insurance company.
It is breaking the law- your car could be impounded by the Revenue Commissioners- they do conduct spot checks, their inspectors are more likely to focus on luxury marques or high power vehicles.
As for your insurance- if you make a false declaration to your insurance company- you could find that you are actually driving without insurance whatsoever. You would not claim as a 320 were you in an accident- you would not actually be insured to drive the vehicle in the first place. Ditto- if it were stolen, you might find that you got nothing whatsoever from the insurance company.

You are advocating tax evasion and making false declarations to insurance companies. No-one likes paying over the odds- but it certainly does not pay to take shortcuts like you are suggesting. Perhaps it might take a short sharp shock for you to learn your lesson- but you cannot get away with what you are suggesting.

m3boy

Thanks for educating me , however it would be the garage who is responsible for falsly registering the cars the people who purchased the car could always claim that they were sold the car as alower cc and thats what they thought it is, after all they are just consumers they wouldnt be as knowlagable in the scams the garge was doing, so they wouldnt take responsibility

The_Conductor

Tails142 wrote:

His salary is in the range of 330k not including expenses. He will also pay tax at 42% on the majority of this. After his term in goverment his pension will be roughly 50% of this salary which he will receive annually; on top of the standard state pension that he will get from paying PRSI and more than likely other salaries and payment for chairing various boards.

Hate to nitpick but civil servants and state officials pensions pay PRSI at the A rate and are entitled to a contributory pension (currently 232 per week), but their overall pension is actually reduced by the amount of the State Pension, not in addition to it. So its 50% of their final salary- less the amount of the contributory state pension. Its been like this since the 1995 Superannuation Scheme was put into place.

As for pressies- you're quite right. Some recent gifts include some stamps with Irish bred racehorses, a book in Arabic detailing the traditions of Bedouin Arabs, a lute, misc. pens etc. Normally they would be very small nominal gifts drawing attention to a particular feature from the country that was granting the gift. The ethics in public office act to which all public officials are now obliged to furnish annual returns, is very specific about the appropriatness of various gifts (which could include something as simple as a meal for an inspector who might be undertaking a case outside of the office- he/she would be expected to 1) declare the meal and 2) deduct it from their allowances.

The_Conductor

m3boy wrote:

Thanks for educating me , however it would be the garage who is responsible for falsly registering the cars the people who purchased the car could always claim that they were sold the car as alower cc and thats what they thought it is, after all they are just consumers they wouldnt be as knowlagable in the scams the garge was doing, so they wouldnt take responsibility

Not so. Ignorance is not a defence, as has been evidenced with over 200 cars siezed in February alone of this year- you may remember the display down at Sir John Rogerson's Dock (totally ignoring the garage shenanigans last week). The car is automatically forfeit and either sold at auction or destroyed (at Revenue's discretion). You could also be prosecuted over the misdeclaration. You could claim ignorance and countersue the garage- but why keep digging when you are in a hole.......

m3boy

ye the whole thing seems pointless , i think ill just keep the uk plate on the car and pay no vrt at all, after all they cannot take the car from you unless you physically hand over the keys, after all as long as i had an adress in the uk and a part time work contract they cant prove how long the car has been in the country but im sure someone will set me straight on this idea and tell me how there is no way it can be done lol

JohnCleary

m3boy wrote: »

ye the whole thing seems pointless , i think ill just keep the uk plate on the car and pay no vrt at all, after all they cannot take the car from you unless you physically hand over the keys, after all as long as i had an adress in the uk and a part time work contract they cant prove how long the car has been in the country but im sure someone will set me straight on this idea and tell me how there is no way it can be done lol

Customs can simply come along any day and lift the car - They don't need the key's - That what recovery trucks are for. You don't even have to be present - A neighbour could rat you out, you come back and your car is impounded (Happened a guy I know - He came back and thought his car was stolen - Gardai told him the Customs had it)

It does not matter what UK firm you work for. Unless you can prove that you're NOT an Irish resident you're not getting it back until you pay your VRT. So if you are an Irish resident and work for a UK firm, you CANNOT drive a UK registered car. If however you're a UK resident (UK license etc.) and work for a UK firm over here I think you're OK. If you think what I say is not true ring the VRO yourself and find out, or just wait until they lift the car.

JohnCleary

m3boy wrote: »

Thanks for educating me , however it would be the garage who is responsible for falsly registering the cars the people who purchased the car could always claim that they were sold the car as alower cc and thats what they thought it is, after all they are just consumers they wouldnt be as knowlagable in the scams the garge was doing, so they wouldnt take responsibility

Again not true. I had an EVO4 registered as a 2ltr lancer on the logbook. However I had to specify that it was an EVO when insuring it. If you think I just registered it as a Lancer that the insurance would pay out in the event of a claim - not a hope in hell.

As said above - Ignorance is not an excuse, and it's YOU that'll pay for it in the end, not the garage that registered it

Seriously, you're making a muppet of yourself with your silly comments that are simply untrue. Do some research, you're just digging a hole

m3boy

JohnCleary wrote: »

Customs can simply come along any day and lift the car - They don't need the key's - That what recovery trucks are for. You don't even have to be present - A neighbour could rat you out, you come back and your car is impounded (Happened a guy I know - He came back and thought his car was stolen - Gardai told him the Customs had it)

It does not matter what UK firm you work for. Unless you can prove that you're NOT an Irish resident you're not getting it back until you pay your VRT. So if you are an Irish resident and work for a UK firm, you CANNOT drive a UK registered car. If however you're a UK resident (UK license etc.) and work for a UK firm over here I think you're OK. If you think what I say is not true ring the VRO yourself and find out, or just wait until they lift the car.

yes i agree with you legaly your not ment to im not sure about working over here for a uk firm but yes techicnaly you are not allowed to drive a uk car over here however please check out the 2nd paragraph in the following link http://www.irishdrivers.org/21043.html
where it states they cannot take the car unless you give them the keys, now that not to say that they wont come along with a toe truck of course but the paragraph is very intresting to read, please have a look and tell me what you think , thanks

Biro

m3boy wrote: »

yes i agree with you legaly your not ment to im not sure about working over here for a uk firm but yes techicnaly you are not allowed to drive a uk car over here however please check out the 2nd paragraph in the following link http://www.irishdrivers.org/21043.html
where it states they cannot take the car unless you give them the keys, now that not to say that they wont come along with a toe truck of course but the paragraph is very intresting to read, please have a look and tell me what you think , thanks

A website stating a load of rights isn't going to help you if customs stop you. Anyway, avoiding paying VRT is one thing, but insurance fraud is another. If you insure an M3 as a 320, then that is insurance fraud. Ignorance is not an excuse. You can face jail if you're caught, you might as well not insure it at all. Same thing.

m3boy

Biro wrote: »

A website stating a load of rights isn't going to help you if customs stop you. Anyway, avoiding paying VRT is one thing, but insurance fraud is another. If you insure an M3 as a 320, then that is insurance fraud. Ignorance is not an excuse. You can face jail if you're caught, you might as well not insure it at all. Same thing.

it would be insured as an m3 if i were to keep the uk plate on it , but theres no way im paying that amount of vrt to bring it over here and then pay the unsurance premimum to insure it as an m3 on a southren plate

The_Conductor

m3boy wrote: »

it would be insured as an m3 if i were to keep the uk plate on it , but theres no way im paying that amount of vrt to bring it over here and then pay the unsurance premimum to insure it as an m3 on a southren plate

Your UK insurance is only valid if 1) you inform the insurance company that you are removing the vehicle from their jurisdiction, and 2) normally there is a maximum timescale that they will be willing to insure the vehicle while in another EU country (normally a maximum of 6 months in total in a calendar year, but this varies from company to company- some (such as Churchill) may be as low as 2 months).

You really are flogging a dead horse.

m3boy

smccarrick wrote: »

Your UK insurance is only valid if 1) you inform the insurance company that you are removing the vehicle from their jurisdiction, and 2) normally there is a maximum timescale that they will be willing to insure the vehicle while in another EU country (normally a maximum of 6 months in total in a calendar year, but this varies from company to company- some (such as Churchill) may be as low as 2 months).

You really are flogging a dead horse.

not really no , 3 of my mates have uk reg cars over here , they have been over here for years , they pay der insurance in de uk and take it over once a year for mot, when they get stopped by the garda which they have been several times they just say that there staying in the uk and their visiting over here , when he was pulled over by the same garda twice he said he has been out of the country since he was last pulled over as he went across the border to NI

regarding insurance companys yes i understand you may only have your uk car in ireland for a limmited amount of time , usually 90days if im corect but im not sure but the insurance companys have no way of telling how long the car has ben over here

TheBigLebowski

If you can't afford to have a legally registered M3 then you shouldn't buy one.

PS Have you any brain cells?

TheBigLebowski

m3boy wrote: »

regarding insurance companys yes i understand you may only have your uk car in ireland for a limmited amount of time , usually 90days if im corect but im not sure but the insurance companys have no way of telling how long the car has ben over here

They may look for something called 'evidence'...
Why don't you stop ruining a perfectly good thread?

m3boy

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

If you can't afford to have a legally registered M3 then you shouldn't buy one.

PS Have you any brain cells?

excuse me if you had any brain cells you would have read earlier on that i said i can afford a legaly reged and insured m3 but that i just refuse to be ripped off by the irish revenue commission

TheBigLebowski

m3boy wrote: »

excuse me if you had any brain cells you would have read earlier on that i said i can afford a legaly reged and insured m3 but that i just refuse to be ripped off by the irish revenue commission

My point is that if you are in a position where you need to be concerned about the price of VRT, then you shouldn't own an M3.

VRT is the law whether you like it or not. Do you think that I like paying 41% income tax? I could say that's a rip off and refuse to pay it but that's not how a civilised democracy works. Go back to school.

m3boy

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

My point is that if you are in a position where you need to be concerned about the price of VRT, then you shouldn't own an M3.

VRT is the law whether you like it or not. Do you think that I like paying 41% income tax? I could say that's a rip off and refuse to pay it but that's not how a civilised democracy works. Go back to school.

the difference between you and i is that you approve of civilized democracy thats not actually a democracy at all , please take a step back and tell me if you think this country treats you fairly , i believe that everyone has the right to do what they wish as long as it does not intentionally harm anyone else