World Class

Tusky

Wanted to make a thread about this because the term gets thrown around so often on this board. There doesn't seem to be a set definition for the term which makes arguments about players frustrating as two people may be working off different definitions.

I think the most common idea of the word is that the player is one of the best players in their position in their world. My problem with this is - what does among mean ? Is it the top 2 players ? top 4 players ? If the 5th best right back in the world plays for my club, does that mean hes one place off being world class ? Personally, If I had to define the word I think the best way would be this 'a player that would arguably get into the squad of any team in the world.

My other problem with the word is that the vast vast majority of people that use it, only watch the premiership. Maybe they watch La Liga highlights on Sky or the odd Real or Barcelona game but very few would actually have any sort of knowledge of world football. If this is the case how can you say make the claims that x amount of players from your team are world class ? I prefer to just call very good players, very good players and leave it at that.

Am I alone in thinking this ? Am I getting annoyed over nothing ?

_blank_

World Class.

There are some stipulations as to what constitutes a world class player, imo.

Not younger than 23/24. Far, far too many players are called world class after two or three very good seasons. It's a joke. If you perform at the top of your game for five, six, seven, eight years, that is world class. If you have two or three or excellent seasons, you are not world class. You are a good young player with potential to get better. If you handle the pressure of being at the top and can keep it up, then yeah, world class. Not until then. Not ever, no exceptions. Lionel Messi, C Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney etc etc Not World Class. Not at this stage.

If a player has success at every level he possibly could have, then he is world class.

Domestic, European, Continental Champs (Euro, Copa America etc), World Cup.

The following players were world class in their day, without a shadow of a doubt, they are accepted as being the best footballers to have played the game, ever. They did it for years.

Maldini.
Baresi.
Van Basten.
Zidane.
Cruyff.
Best.
Maradona.
Pele.
Romario.
The Fat Ronaldo.
Ronaldinho.

Shíte, I fogot.

Hunt.
Doyle.
Long.

A Dub in Glasgo

The term World Class is usually spouted by the EPL watchers. Does it really matter?

Tusky

DesF wrote: »

World Class.

There are some stipulations as to what constitutes a world class player, imo.

Not younger than 23/24. Far, far too many players are called world class after two or three very good seasons. It's a joke. If you perform at the top of your game for five, six, seven, eight years, that is world class. If you have two or three or excellent seasons, you are not world class. You are a good young player with potential to get better. If you handle the pressure of being at the top and can keep it up, then yeah, world class. Not until then. Not ever, no exceptions. Lionel Messi, C Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney etc etc Not World Class. Not at this stage.

If a player has success at every level he possibly could have, then he is world class.

Domestic, European, Continental Champs (Euro, Copa America etc), World Cup.

The following players were world class in their day, without a shadow of a doubt, they are accepted as being the best footballers to have played the game, ever. They did it for years.

Maldini.
Baresi.
Van Basten.
Zidane.
Cruyff.
Best.
Maradona.
Pele.
Romario.
The Fat Ronaldo.
Ronaldinho.

See, you make some good points and your definition of a world class player is a fair one. I cant pick holes in it. Its exactly why I dont like the word, as your definition is completely different to mine. Christiano Ronaldo for example, would get into the squad of any team in the world so by my thinking, hes world class....but not by yours.

Theres is an amazing about of debate on various threads about world class players. "your team only has one world class player!" - "no we have 7" "no you have 1" and on and on and on...

Guy:Incognito

DesF wrote: »

If a player has success at every level he possibly could have, then he is world class.

Domestic, European, Continental Champs (Euro, Copa America etc), World Cup.:p

Have to disagree a bit here. Certain players, no matter how good are prohibited from having an illustrious international career simply because of where they happened to be born .Best , Keane, Giggs, Rush are four examples that spring to mind. I mean from that list, Keane is the only one who even got to play in a world cup (or EC iirc), never mind be in a team capable of winning it.

International sucess is not really somethign a player has control of and the best he can do is play well in the mayches they play. If Maradona had been from Andorra, would he still be world class?

Helix

DesF wrote: »

If a player has success at every level he possibly could have, then he is world class.

i dont buy that tbh

you could be an absolutely phenomenal player, but never win anything thought bad luck, bad teammates, whatever

Illkillya

Tusky wrote: »

If I had to define the word I think the best way would be this 'a player that would arguably get into the squad of any team in the world.

This sounds like a fair definition.

Unearthly

My definition is a player who is better, or as good as, the players in his position in the world.

Again that comes down to opinion as to who is the best in each position

However I hate when you see people compairing a striker to a defender etc

DSB

I dunno about that. Wouldn't the whole Barcelona or Man United first 11 get into every squad in the world? I certainly don't believe the whole Man United first 11 is world class.

kryogen

my own personal definition of world class involves the players who would make it into a world XI squad...... the top 5% in their position..... i like rooney, i think hes a great player, but i dont consider him to be quite world class, similarly with steven gerrard and frank lampard, who would you rather in your team? lampard/pirlo/frings/ballack/gerrard/fabregas/riquelme/gago

thats just a small list of some of the best midfielders in the world, there are many many more and how do you separate them? its very very hard tbh! would take a long time and lots of debate imo. it doesnt really matter that much who is the best, it matter who has the best impact on their team

you can draw up similar lists for all positions and you will never find people who will agree on everyone

Helix

top 5 in their position in the world for me, which pretty much limits there to being 55 world class players at any given time in my opinion

_blank_

Some people up there are confused by me saying that success at every level is needed for World Classity.

No, what I actually said was "success at every possible level".

See, I have Best on my list. He won Domestic and UEFA honours.

He was never going to win, or ever even play in, the WC or EC with NI. He's still on my list though, a truly World Class player.

oobydooby

DesF wrote: »

Some people up there are confused by me saying that success at every level is needed for World Classity.

No, what I actually said was "success at every possible level".

See, I have Best on my list. He won Domestic and UEFA honours.

He was never going to win, or ever even play in, the WC or EC with NI. He's still on my list though, a truly World Class player.

No, Best is a legend. That's different to world class. World class are those players who are the best in the world during their careers but are not in the all-time world XI. Zidane say might be a legend but he was probably only world-class, like Cryuff or Maldini. There are also local legends, who might not even be world class (Shearer, Carra, Neville, LeTissier etc). Then you have those players with stardust (Torres, Ronaldo etc - Big 4 only)...

_blank_

George Best was a world class player.

Anyone who says any different doesn't like football.

Guy:Incognito

DesF wrote: »

George Best was a world class player.

Anyone who says any different doesn't like football.

BLah, Blah , Bah, wasted career, Blah , Blah alcho etc etc.


Just getting in first before some numpty comes on saying same.

eirebhoy

There's probably 50-100 players in the world class bracket. Top 5-10 in each position.

_blank_

eirebhoy wrote: »

There's probably 50-100 players in the world class bracket. Top 5-10 in each position.

...and none of them play for Celtic

Guy:Incognito

DesF wrote: »

...and none of them play for Celtic

:eek:How dare you. Nakamura is the best player in world football, fact.

The also have the biggest name in world football plaing up front.

homerjay2005

DesF wrote: »

...and none of them play for Celtic

aidan mcgeedy des, dont forget him:p

my definition of world class - any player, who in his position, would fit into any team in the world and improve that team.

in the premiership, fabregas, rooney, ronaldo are the 3 front runners here anyway. czech would definately be another. honours means nothing to be honest, i genuinly think Shay Given is world class also and he has won f**k all. if he was at a "bigger" club and a different country, then he may, i say may, have won alot more. damien duff, around 2002 was world class.

Guy:Incognito

homerjay2005 wrote: »

damien duff, around 2002 was world class.

Is playing really well for a while world class though? or playing out of his skin for a while?

_blank_

homerjay2005 wrote: »

damien duff, around 2002 was world class.

You know that Family Fortunes sound, when they say an answer but no-one in the survey said it? Well that sound is playing right now.

Duffer was never world class, he was a player who had three decent seasons and got hyped the fúck in Ireland. Like Robbie, Jason McAteer, Gary Kelly and the Fabulous Phil Babb before them.

Get a grip will you.

eirebhoy

DesF wrote: »

...and none of them play for Celtic

Well yeah, other than Naka.

he was a player who had three decent seasons and got hyped the fúck in Ireland.

It wasn't just Ireland. FIFA team of the year voted by over a million people. Anyway, easily one of the best wingers in the world under Ranieri.

Guy:Incognito

eirebhoy wrote: »

Well yeah, other than Naka.


It wasn't just Ireland. FIFA team of the year voted by over a million people. Anyway, easily one of the best wingers in the world under Ranieri.

1 million voters, 4 million people in Irleand. I'm seeing a pattern.

eirebhoy

After the Ronny O'Brien thing nothing would surprise me.

homerjay2005

DesF wrote: »

Duffer was never world class.

well we will have to agree to differ on this. IMO, duffer, at the time was one of the best, if not the best left winger in the world. not just with ireland, with blackburn and then chelsea. i saw him play live a few times and was amazed at how good he was at times. please do not mix up form and class lads!:D

A Dub in Glasgo

Let me know what other wingers in the world you saw to verify that he was one of the best in the world

shane86

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i genuinly think Shay Given is world class also and he has won f**k all. if he was at a "bigger" club and a different country, then he may, i say may, have won alot more. damien duff, around 2002 was world class.

Indeed. Id rate Shay ahead of Cech tbh. He just has the misfortune of playing with some pretty awful defenders over the years, and why he is still at Newcastle (and probably will be until he retires) I really dont know. But its a crying shame a player of his calibre, skill and 110% commitment will likely never be part of a team that lifts a trophy.

While I agree with Des re Robbie did anyone really state McAteer, Babb and Kelly were world class?

DesF wrote: »

]
Shíte, I fogot.

Hunt.
Doyle.
Long.

Your new best friends have`nt taken out the restraining order yet?

homerjay2005

shane86 wrote: »

Your new best friends have`nt taken out the restraining order yet?

apparantly, there is pictorial evidence that they are already very very afraid!!!:p

Guy:Incognito

eirebhoy wrote: »

After the Ronny O'Brien thing nothing would surprise me.

Now there was a genuine world class player

homerjay2005

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Let me know what other wingers in the world you saw to verify that he was one of the best in the world

mark rutherford and kevin kilbane.

DSB

oobydooby wrote: »

No, Best is a legend. That's different to world class. World class are those players who are the best in the world during their careers but are not in the all-time world XI. Zidane say might be a legend but he was probably only world-class, like Cryuff or Maldini. There are also local legends, who might not even be world class (Shearer, Carra, Neville, LeTissier etc). Then you have those players with stardust (Torres, Ronaldo etc - Big 4 only)...

Are you even sure what you're talking about here? It doesn't make any sense.

astrofool

I thought this thread was about what the definition of world class was, not which players were or not (btw, Roy Keane would be world class in Desf's definition ).

It seems to be a word bandied about too often, usually by supporters in a points winning excercise.

I think a better way to look at it, is what players you would most like to come to your team, without considering money/pay/age, and ignore this "world class" malarkey, it doesn't really mean anything as it's been abused so much. Every person wants to feel like their team has some special players (long, hunt, doyle), and so will adapt definitions to suit themselves, otherwise, wtf are they doing supporting a team with a bunch of crap players? (without going into what a "supporter" is please )

_blank_

astrofool wrote: »

is what players you would most like to come to your team,

Barcelona wanted Gary Breen at one stage.

Unearthly

DesF wrote: »

Barcelona wanted Gary Breen at one stage.

No defender came close to him between 1998-2002

Guy:Incognito

astrofool wrote: »

(btw, Roy Keane would be world class in Desf's definition

He was world class in any definition.

Unearthly wrote: »

No defender came close to him between 1998-2002

Only because they were up the other end of the pitch.

Pepe LeFrits

DesF wrote: »

Barcelona wanted Gary Breen at one stage.

What the fuck? So you're saying Gary Breen wasn't world class? I've heard it all now.

Pigman II

Create match. Team A vs Team B with all the players in the world to choose from.

If you make either team or the bench then you are World Class.

_blank_

Stekelly wrote: »

He was world class in any definition.

Yeah, I agree.

Stekelly wrote: »

Only because they were up the other end of the pitch.

Heh.

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

What the fuck? So you're saying Gary Breen wasn't world class? I've heard it all now.

Yeah, I'm saying Gary Breen wasn't World Class, if you have a problem with that, we can take this outside.

I may be slated for this, but fúck you all tbh. Gary Breen most certainly was not world class. Sure, he did it all. Scored in a World Cup, mooted move to Barca scuppered only by his unending loyalty to Coventry City, skillz of ten Madonnas to boot. And that song of course "We all dream of a team of Gary Breens".

But still, I would argue that Breener wasn't world class.

I say he wasn't world class, because quite plainly still is world class. Wherever he is now.

Pepe LeFrits

DesF wrote: »

Yeah, I'm saying Gary Breen wasn't World Class, if you have a problem with that, we can take this outside.

I may be slated for this, but fúck you all tbh. Gary Breen most certainly was not world class. Sure, he did it all. Scored in a World Cup, mooted move to Barca scuppered only by his unending loyalty to Coventry City, skillz of ten Madonnas to boot. And that song of course "We all dream of a team of Gary Breens".

But still, I would argue that Breener wasn't world class.

I say he wasn't world class, because quite plainly still is world class. Wherever he is now.

You're right, apologies!

astrofool

DesF wrote: »

Barcelona wanted Gary Breen at one stage.

Barcelona wanted him, I doubt the fans did, and they may have been at a low ebb at the time (Barca were awful a short few years ago).

Manchester United just signed an Angolan striker, I doubt the Utd fans will want him above all others, there's a difference.

_blank_

astrofool wrote: »

Barcelona wanted him, I doubt the fans did, and they may have been at a low ebb at the time (Barca were awful a short few years ago).

Manchester United just signed an Angolan striker, I doubt the Utd fans will want him above all others, there's a difference.

Here, I got you this for Christmas.

homerjay2005

it was inter milan that wanted gary breen after the world cup in 2002. i ended up singing that t"eam of gary breens song" last night. legend yes, world class no im afraid not, Des.

astrofool

DesF wrote: »

Here, I got you this for Christmas.

Well if you had to resort to sarcasm, then I've won the debate

Tusky

So far we have found out that a world class players is

-someone who could get into any squad
-someone who could get into any team and improve them
-someone who has had success at every level
-top 5 in their position
-top 10 in their position
-someone who would make the team or bench of one of two world XIs....

etc etc etc

So everyone has a different definition. Its a crap way of defining a player.

tdv

I don't think you can really call any player totally world class, but alot of players have world class attributes.