Irish language.

UrbanFox

Has anyone a clue as to what it has cost the Irish taxpayers to implement the provisions of the Official Language Act 2003 ?

murphaph

UrbanFox wrote: »

Has anyone a clue as to what it has cost the Irish taxpayers to implement the provisions of the Official Language Act 2003 ?

Cen fath?

UrbanFox

murphaph wrote: »

Cen fath?

Because I pay shedloads of tax and want to know how it is being spent.

I think that establishes sufficient locus standi to ask the question !

You don't know the answer, do you ?

DublinWriter

UrbanFox wrote: »

Has anyone a clue as to what it has cost the Irish taxpayers to implement the provisions of the Official Language Act 2003 ?

Funnily enough, I just mentioned this in another thread started by someone bemoaning the Polish coming here and that we can't even speak our own language, etc, etc etc, comely maidens dancing at the crossroads and whatever your having yourself Seamus.

The figure I have dancing around my head right now is about €12 million annually. There was a bust up in the Dail last year with O'Cuiv and some FG'ers which you could probably dig up from one of the Government websites. The problem is as far as I know that the budget for this is allocated within each department, so getting a total figure would be a labyrinthine task.

Dr_Teeth

UrbanFox wrote: »

Because I pay shedloads of tax and want to know how it is being spent.

I think that establishes sufficient locus standi to ask the question !

You don't know the answer, do you ?

Wait a minute, how much have we spent to teach you latin!?!

johnnyskeleton

I'm sure it's a drop in the ocean compared with all the other waste of your tax money. I'm sure the Department of Defence spends more on biscuits and tea than the entire state spends on the Irish language.

Running Bing

UrbanFox wrote: »

Has anyone a clue as to what it has cost the Irish taxpayers to implement the provisions of the Official Language Act 2003 ?

Your worried about the money spent by the government on the Irish language?


You may not think it important but to thousands of Irish people it is part of our identity.

DublinWriter

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I'm sure it's a drop in the ocean compared with all the other waste of your tax money. I'm sure the Department of Defence spends more on biscuits and tea than the entire state spends on the Irish language.

Ever hear the saying 'look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves'?

DublinWriter

Babybing wrote: »

You may not think it important but to thousands of Irish people it is part of our identity.

In a country of some 4+ million, just how many thousands of people is it important to, considering there must be only about some 4,000 fluent Irish speakers in the country?

johnnyskeleton

DublinWriter wrote: »

Ever hear the saying 'look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves'?

Have you ever heard "look at the bigger picture". There is a lot of waste in our state, but it seems we can only focus on the little things.

Zombrex

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I'm sure it's a drop in the ocean compared with all the other waste of your tax money. I'm sure the Department of Defence spends more on biscuits and tea than the entire state spends on the Irish language.

Yeah, I think it is a little more than that. It costs the EU 3.5 million Euro a year for the 30 translators they have. Imagine how much processing everything in two languages costs the State.

And that is before you get into how much all the Irish Language teachers cost.

Gurgle

Wicknight wrote: »

It costs the EU 3.5 million Euro a year for the 30 translators they have.

Huh?
You can earn €116k per year translating english to irish?

Or, more likely, they earn €35k each and the other €2.4m goes on administration.

SeanW

And with our fat, overpowered and overpaid civil service, do you think the ratio is much better here?

You may not think it important but to thousands of Irish people it is part of our identity.

And the millions of us that couldn't give two ****s?

murphaph

SeanW wrote: »

And the millions of us that couldn't give two ****s?

Sean! The handful of gaeilgoirs and professional moaners get what they want while the silent majority gets to pay for it! That's how this country has always worked and will always work until the silent majority rises up and says "enough".

There are still plenty of sacred cows that you aren't supposed to attack in this great little country. The irish language is definintely one. The sad thing from my perspective (as someone who appreciates culture and the irish language is part of the culture of at least part of the island) is that we could get a much better return on our spending on the irish language than by wasting it on token gestures like translating obscure tax return forms into irish and force feeding the language to unwilling teenagers by OTT gaeltacht born teachers who come across as more fanatical than your average muslim terrorist.

Imagine if we took all that money and put it into meaningful irish language initiatives. We could see some results instead of the terminal decline we've seen since the foundation of the state.

Calina

This debate is rather predictable, isn't it?

Murphaph, when you talk about putting money into more meaningful initiatives, would you care to name some? I have no objection to putting money into them but I keep hearing and reading people talking about doing things differently and yet...they never seem to have any examples of what kind of initiatives they might have in mind. Tell me, apart from downright repression as practised in Wales by the UK authorities and Brittany by the French, what actually works?

I have - ultimately - no objection to official documentation translation - after all it's an official language of the country.

However, there is a key problem with language teaching in this country - and this is not limited to Irish. Firstly foreign languages - and for a native English speaker, Irish is a foreign language - are incredibly badly taught in this country. Whilst saying that, the modus operandi of teaching Irish has improved radically in the last 10 years but that's only because initially the modus operandi was to pretend everyone could speak it already which was a hardly productive way of doing it. Secondly, the vast majority of native English speakers across the world - not just in Ireland are too lazy to learn how to speak a foreign language competently and have managed to justify this by convincing themselves that they are "bad at languages". In the face of such laziness - never mind the apathy so evident here - no one is going to learn to speak a foreign language competently.

To the OP who is whinging about where his tax euros are going, you might more productively demand to know how it is with a ballooning budget we have a health system which is getting progressively worse, how it is we have managed to spend the outrageous amount of money on various tribunals. Comparatively, 12 million to pay for language translation services is peanuts.

Zombrex

Gurgle wrote: »

Huh?
You can earn €116k per year translating english to irish?

Or, more likely, they earn €35k each and the other €2.4m goes on administration.

It goes on having 30 Irish translators.

There is a bit more cost to having an employee than just paying them

murphaph

Calina wrote: »

This debate is rather predictable, isn't it?

Of course!

Calina wrote: »

Murphaph, when you talk about putting money into more meaningful initiatives, would you care to name some?

Ok, fair point. I'd say for a get-go that the Gaeilscoilleana (sp?) should receive increased funding. They are popular and oversubscribed so provide more of them! Provide free or low cost adult evening courses so that the adults sending kids to the irish schools can converse with them in the language. Promote the benefits of learning a second language-it assists further foreign language learning in leater life.

In fairness Conradh na Gaeilge are doing a better job. In the past you'd be hard pressed to find any english in their literature at all. I recently got a promotional pack with mostly english and just enough irish not to intimidate. what about funding social clubs for parents of children attending irish schools, to allow them to practice their lame irish without fear?! There are many soft initiatives based on freedom of choice which could assist the language but we must accept that only a small percentage of people will ever want to speak it and the force feeding we have at present hasn't ever worked for the langauge, it has just bred resentment towards it which it doesn't deserve-it's just a language (albeit a language hijacked and used for political reasons for well over a hundred years now).

Calina wrote: »

Tell me, apart from downright repression as practised in Wales by the UK authorities and Brittany by the French, what actually works?

Eh? You'll find exactly the same bilingual road signs in Brittany and Wales as here! Hardly a symbol of repression to put the language on official signage. Maybe you were talking past tense? Maybe you have better inside knowledge of the situation in Brittany but Welsh has recognised language status and is on the increase more than any 'Celtic' language.

Calina wrote: »

I have - ultimately - no objection to official documentation translation - after all it's an official language of the country.

But the question is, should it be? It is part of our cultural history and for a small few it is just the language they speak, but many more people speak other languages than irish at home with their families. Why does irish retain its sacred "official" status because it was spoken by the majority centuries ago? We all know the reason-it was a way to distinguish ourselves from the brits, like so many other silly tokens of this state since its foundation. Time to grow up and remove irish as an official language and treat it as just a cultural facet (one of many) of our country.

sambongo

Babybing wrote: »

Your worried about the money spent by the government on the Irish language?


You may not think it important but to thousands of Irish people it is part of our identity.

Yeah exactly... if anything, they should be spending MORE! (on reforming the way it's taught in school and making it an everyday language by taking steps to make it more appealing to the general public etc) We can't just let it die!!

It'll be a sad day when national greed comes ahead of national identity.

sambongo

DublinWriter wrote: »

In a country of some 4+ million, just how many thousands of people is it important to, considering there must be only about some 4,000 fluent Irish speakers in the country?

Seafóid. Tá i bhfad níos mó ná 4,000 sa tír seo a bhfuil flúirseacht na gaeilge acu! Cá bhfuair tú é seo?? Rinne tú suas é a phleidhce! Agus ar aon os, tá ár dteanga naisiúnta an-thábachtach do dhaoine NACH bhfuil an flúirseacht acu comh maith.

I will translate since you probably don't know what I said:

"B.S. There are way more than 4,000 people in this country who are fluent in Irish! Where did you get that figure? You made it up! Anyway, our national language is extremely important to people who AREN'T fluent too."

djpbarry

sambongo wrote: »

Yeah exactly... if anything, they should be spending MORE! (on reforming the way it's taught in school and making it an everyday language by taking steps to make it more appealing to the general public etc)

What exactly would this "reforming" involve? And how do you make Irish an "everyday language"? How do you make it more "appealing"? Either people want/need to speak it, or they don't - no amount of money is going to change that.

JC 2K3

Irish has experienced a revival in recent years. It'd hardly make sense to cut back on spending just as it's gaining popularity.

The Corinthian

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Irish has experienced a revival in recent years. It'd hardly make sense to cut back on spending just as it's gaining popularity.

I've been hearing that line for decades and I've yet to see evidence of it. Indeed, on the topic of such figures, does it make sense that the usage of Irish is recorded by civil servants who have a vested interest in the language being seen as 'alive'? Have there been any independent surveys?

djpbarry

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Irish has experienced a revival in recent years.

Not according to the census it hasn't. The number of people (over 15) with a knowledge of Irish had declined to 37.8% of the population in 2006. This is down from 40.1% in 2002 and way down from 75.5% in 1996.

Obviously, this is slightly subjective as it is based on the individual's confidence in speaking/understanding the language, but it gives an indication of the language's standing in Irish society.

EamonnKeane

DublinWriter wrote: »

In a country of some 4+ million, just how many thousands of people is it important to, considering there must be only about some 4,000 fluent Irish speakers in the country?

o rly? You added up all the primary teachers, all the kids attending gaelscoileanna, the majority of Gaeltacht inhabitants, all those taking H.L. Irish for the leaving everyone working in and listening to RnaG, RnaLife, TG4, etc., all those in cumainn gaelacha in universities, plus a good amount of other people, and could only find four thousand?

astrofool

I definitely think a softer approach like the Welsh have taken would work. The big hit would be initially, when it is made an optional language in schools, but over the years, the spending could be put on better initiatives, as said above, more irish schools would be a decent start. Removing TG4 from the tv license fee, and paid for from the budget for making all offical forms Irish (a big waste of paper as well).

The Corinthian

EamonnKeane wrote: »

o rly? You added up all the primary teachers, all the kids attending gaelscoileanna, the majority of Gaeltacht inhabitants, all those taking H.L. Irish for the leaving everyone working in and listening to RnaG, RnaLife, TG4, etc., all those in cumainn gaelacha in universities, plus a good amount of other people, and could only find four thousand?

How does one describe fluency though? That there are a large number with a high level of the language, I've no doubt, but I've also heard many 'fluent' Irish speakers stuttering their way through a conversation, which would indicate that they are not fluent.

Of course this is not to suggest there are 4,000 or more or less fluent speakers, only that fluency is bandied around a lot for people who are frankly anything but.

Again, I do think that the way that the level of knowledge of the language in this country is very poorly measured. We have subjective self assessment in the census, or civil servants in the relevant departments who have a vested interest in keeping the figures up. Either way, I don't think we have a very good assessment of its actual use - be it good or bad.

Interesting you mentioned TG4 though. Does anyone have any figures on their viewership figures for Irish language programs compared to their English language programs? This might be a more realistic estimate of actual fluency and usage.

IRLConor

Even if we all agreed that Irish should be the primary language of every single person in the country the Official Language Act 2003 would still be a stupid piece of legislation. If €12 million/year was put into reforming the way Irish is taught in school so that school-leavers could at least have some chance of being able to speak the language it would be money spent well.

Personally I'd prefer the money not to be spent (I'll have my €3/year back please!) as I believe that languages are practical tools for communication not cultural treasures. Works created in the language may be treasures, but the language itself is not. You don't need to be able to speak ancient Greek to appreciate the Iliad, nor do you need to understand Latin to read works by Cicero. Some people will learn Irish, more won't and the world will not end.

GuanYin

djpbarry wrote: »

Not according to the census it hasn't. The number of people (over 15) with a knowledge of Irish had declined to 37.8% of the population in 2006. This is down from 40.1% in 2002 and way down from 75.5% in 1996.

Obviously, this is slightly subjective as it is based on the individual's confidence in speaking/understanding the language, but it gives an indication of the language's standing in Irish society.

Actually there is an explanation for this.

The 1996 census phrasing enticed anyone who had ever asked to go to the toilet in Irish to put themselves down as an "Irish speaker".


When the results came out, everyone, not least the Irish speakers, raised a collective eyebrow. In 2002 they reworded, but an increase in foreign nationals also played it's part. This trend continued in 2006.

As Stephen Rea's character in V for Vendetta states, the best government records are the tax records and your best bet is to check those claiming tax benefits for a true refelection. That includes schools who teach through Irish.

The Corinthian

psi wrote: »

As Stephen Rea's character in V for Vendetta states, the best government records are the tax records and your best bet is to check those claiming tax benefits for a true refelection. That includes schools who teach through Irish.

I wouldn't agree. I remember a girl who came from a Gaeltacht area who was officially classified as fluent Irish. In reality she simply had cúpla focal. According to her an inspector would come round, ask a few simple questions, helping them along, and tick the boxes. As such I'd be very skeptical of the numbers getting benefits - it's when they pay out that I would take more seriously.

cabinteelytom

I just hope the money is well spent; though how to 'promote' a language using money is the big question.
Almost no public money was spent suppressing Irish in the first place. Former Governments merely passed laws that only English could be used in the civil service and the courts and (in Scotland, maybe Ireland too) as a medium of education.To-day Gordon Brown (or someone close to him) said his aim was that English becomes 'the world language'. 'Maith thu a mhic' , is all you can say to that.
Generally we have felt ashamed that our language has only a few million, a few hundred thousand, or a few thousand speakers, unlike the impressively popular language next door...but other countries manage to be proud that their language is unique, rather than ubiquitous.
You don't hear many Lithuanians expressing regret that their people didn't entirely go over to speaking Russian.

sambongo

djpbarry wrote: »

What exactly would this "reforming" involve? And how do you make Irish an "everyday language"? How do you make it more "appealing"? Either people want/need to speak it, or they don't - no amount of money is going to change that.

Well, for one thing, they could teach it the way they teach French, with the emphasis on oral Irish. None of yer 'Peig' rubbish and less poetry.

Another would be to make going to the Gaeltacht fun as opposed to something everyone dreads.