Hybrids - good idea or no?

Bee

nereid wrote: »

This is a very valid point, considering where most commuters spend most of their journeys, if even half of them switched to priii, the co2 budget for the country would be halved, if not quartered.

BTW, I never suggested the prius was a performance car, I said it was a 2l car. And I specifically mentioned commuting in my posts, so the mpg figure for commuting on a prius and a 2l car *would* be different, so in certain circumstances they do make for a valid consideration.

Do not believe the advertising hype about the likes of a Prius. It's real world mpg figures are less than a good turbo diesel e.g. a Golf TDI, and it's over all cabon footprint taken from building it to disposing it is so much worse as to totally negate it appearing to have a smaller carbon footprint.

They were pulled up for advertising lies by the Advertising Standards Authority, have a read here

http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_42615.htm

Your point about the co2 budget being halved does not stand up to any scrutiny.

If all houses were properly insulated, the co2 output would be greatly redeuced. Be aware that transport and then the sub section that is private cars contribute a tiny fraction of tha actual co2 output of the country.

cantdecide

Bee wrote: »

Be aware that transport and then the sub section that is private cars contribute a tiny fraction of tha actual co2 output of the country.

Especially in our low population density country where typically everyone drives modest cars anyway as a result of VRT.

In other words, the giving the unethical VRT a toon-up to pander to the greenies (I'm one) and supposedly ease the strain of buying that well-needed green new car is barely solving a problem that doesn't actually exist.

Seth Brundle

nereid wrote: »

To be quite fair, the diesel that Audi run in the LeMans cars is about as related to the diesel you get at the pumps as sea water is.

It is refined so much to be like petrol it might as well be petrol.

True but its a sign that the diesel engine is considered as a serious contender and as with a lot of top class motor-racing, the developments work their way over time to the standard cars.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

and 143 bhp is not far off Toyota's own 2.0

77bhp from the petrol motor @ 5000rpm + 68bhp from elec motor @ 1200rpm does not equal 143bhp. Both motors spin at the same speed, so the most that could be realistically expected at any given time is 100bhp.

E92

Toyota's own brochure claims it has 143 bhp IIRC;). In any event even when the engine and electric motor work together, who said that they both had to be same rpm at any given time?

Riskymove

junkyard wrote: »

I don't honestly think any true car enthusiast would be seen dead in an electric car........... I know I wouldn't be anyway, they're truly horrible, bland boring things and have reduced cars to domestic appliance status.:p

Is that not the point of the current cursade?:D

"This month's special new Zanussi Sprinter, A-rated, re-charged in just 8 hours, a cracking 80kmh top speed! Commute to work in planet-saving style!"

E92

Unlike combustion engine cars, electric cars use more "fuel" at speed rather than in town. That could be quite a problem with them.

alias no.9

There are pros and cons to everything. I was talking to a guy last week who runs a hybrid lexus and some diesel mercs as part of a fleet and he said the merc wins hands down for economy. I was at an engineers ireland lecture about the future of automotive power sources, delivered by a guy from lotus a few months back, I was shocked at the environmental impact of the production of batteries for the prius. I can't remember the exact details but I think it was the nickle ore that is mined and smelted in canada, shipped to europe for further processing, shipped to china to be foamed and shipped to japan for the batteries to be made. The batteries are then fitted to the car which is shipped around the world to customers. The batteries basically travel the world before reaching the customer. If that wasn't bad enough, the nickle smelting process is extremely destructive to the environment and the environment around the canadian plant is virtually destroyed and NASA uses the dead zone around the plant to test moon rovers. So yes, the prius consumes less fuel and therefore emitts less CO2 than conventional petrol engined cars but that comes at a cost to the environment. When looking at the bigger picture, the BMW efficient dynamics technology appears to be much more environmentally sound.

alias no.9

Been googling and this basically backs up what I remember from the lecture.

E92

alias no.9 a 530i is more economical than a Lexus GS Hybrid(36.7 mpg vs 35.8 mpg, and if you want an Auto 530i, it goes up to 37.7 mpg) . And that is a petrol engine non hybrid 3.0 litre car. Needless to say the 530d is better still(44.1 mpg for a manual, 42.8 mpg for an Auto).

Sure Honda only think Hybrids are good for small cars anyway, and the V6 Accord Hybrid in the US is being replaced by a diesel.

EDIT:

Having read the link, it is important to remember that the Hummer does 3 times the distance the Prius is expected to do, so it isn't strictly accurate and not really a fair comparison(I wonder how things would compare if they were both driven the same distance), however the thing about the batteries is in itself shocking and really puts the spotlight back on environmentally friendliness or the lack thereof as this would suggest.

It's all very well for a car to do 66 mpg or whatever it is that people will say it does but there is a bigger picture and those people who brag about how good they are for the planet often conveniently "forget" :rolleyes: that making cars is in itself a very polluting activity, and clearly some cars have less of an impact than others.

JHMEG wrote:

Why does the US EPA say the Prius is the most efficient car in 2007?

Easy. No diesels of that size of car are available there. The only oil burners I know of are the Merc diesels and the Jeep diesels, the V10 Touareg and that's it.

alias no.9

E92 wrote: »

alias no.9 a 530i is more economical than a Lexus GS Hybrid(36.7 mpg vs 35.8 mpg, and if you want an Auto 530i, it goes up to 37.7 mpg) . And that is a petrol engine non hybrid 3.0 litre car. Needless to say the 530d is better still(44.1 mpg for a manual, 42.8 mpg for an Auto).

The GS Hybrid is a 4.3 litre and in fairness it is much more efficient than the GS300, 35mpg v's 28. The pre efficient dynamics 530i auto does 32mpg so despite being much a bigger capacity engine the GS430h was better. I've already said efficient dyynamics offers greater overall environmental benefits than hybrid.

cantdecide

alias no.9 wrote: »

The GS Hybrid is a 4.3 litre and in fairness it is much more efficient than the GS300, 35mpg v's 28. The pre efficient dynamics 530i auto does 32mpg so despite being much a bigger capacity engine the GS430h was better. I've already said efficient dyynamics offers greater overall environmental benefits than hybrid.

GS430h is a 3.5l IIRC

E92

alias no.9 wrote: »

The GS Hybrid is a 4.3 litre and in fairness it is much more efficient than the GS300, 35mpg v's 28. The pre efficient dynamics 530i auto does 32mpg so despite being much a bigger capacity engine the GS430h was better. I've already said efficient dyynamics offers greater overall environmental benefits than hybrid.

Its a 3.5 litre 6 cylinder engine with less power than the 530i(the petrol engine on it's own). It's badged a 450 because it's meant to have the power of a 4.5(and it has 341 bhp when the 2 engines are combined,it does 0-100 in 5.9 seconds, the BMW does 0-100 in 6.3 or 0.4 less than the Lexus.

I wasn't criticising you at all, merely backing up what you said;)!

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

In any event even when the engine and electric motor work together, who said that they both had to be same rpm at any given time?

You don't understand the technology. Look at the diagrams. They have no choice but to spin at the same speed.

Since you haven't proved the 143bhp thing we'll quitely drop it for now.

@alias, that lecture sounds like it was based on that discredited report done by a marketing company (name escapes me, but it was a TLA), Dust to Dust, where they had a particular go at the batteries. Nickel is a controversial metal no doubt, but chances are you have more of it that there is in a Prius, as its main use is in alloys (well over half of total production), followed by coinage, followed by rechargeable batteries for mobiles phones, laptops, everything.

alias no.9

JHMEG wrote: »

You don't understand the technology. Look at the diagrams. They have no choice but to spin at the same speed.

Since you haven't proved the 143bhp thing we'll quitely drop it for now.

@alias, that lecture sounds like it was based on that discredited report done by a marketing company (name escapes me, but it was a TLA), Dust to Dust, where they had a particular go at the batteries. Nickel is a controversial metal no doubt, but chances are you have more of it that there is in a Prius, as its main use is in alloys (well over half of total production), followed by coinage, followed by rechargeable batteries for mobiles phones, laptops, everything.

The lecture focused more on the potential of synthetic alcohols rather than denigrading any other possibilities. The Dust to Dust report certainly made some big assumptions about annual mileage and lifecycle in order to support outlandish claims that a hummer was cleaner than a prius, that does not detract from the fact that the prius batteries have a massive carbon footprint along with other major environmental consequences. To use the 'but nickel is used in other things' arguement is akin to using the 'we shouldn't bother looking after our emissions because america aren't doing anything about theirs' arguement. Also the level of refining required for battery grade nickle is much less than for alloy wheels.

JHMEG

alias no.9 wrote: »

Also the level of refining required for battery grade nickle is much less than for alloy wheels.

Doh! I'm not talking about alloy wheels! I'm talking about metal alloys, for example stainless steel. Well over half of all nickel produced goes into metal alloys where it does have to be very pure.

To say we should do shun hybrids because they use nickel and not to say the same about mobile phones, laptops, kitchen cuttelry etc is double standards.

alias no.9

JHMEG wrote: »

Doh! I'm not talking about alloy wheels! I'm talking about metal alloys, for example stainless steel. Well over half of all nickel produced goes into metal alloys where it does have to be very pure.

To say we should do shun hybrids because they use nickel and not to say the same about mobile phones, laptops, kitchen cuttelry etc is double standards.

I'm not saying we should shun hybrids, I'm saying we need to be conscious of their full environmental impact. As things stand, stop start technologies, coupled with advanced direct injection engines offer a better solution. That's not to say that cleaner battery technology and/or the improvement of the conventional engine coupled to the hybrid powertrain won't give hybrids the edge.

As for the alloys comment, appologies, it was late and I read the word alloys in a motors forum and made a wrong assumption. However, nickle used in other applications rarely does a round the world trip before getting to the customer.

JHMEG

alias no.9 wrote: »

IAs things stand, stop start technologies, coupled with advanced direct injection engines offer a better solution.

Is that because you say so?

alias no.9 wrote: »

a round the world trip before getting to the customer.

Is that also because you say so? (Most nickle comes from Canada, most production is in China)

I know of 2 people that had a prius, and they said they rarely see under 50mpg in town driving and one man from greystones said sometimes he will get 80mpg. he said you have to re-learn how to drive. He said you really have to use the regenerative breaking as much as possible and it's great. I would love to get a weekend in a prius to see what I could get. Diesels are great for long runs, but we all land in a town or city sooner or later and the mpg nosedives. I had a passat 1.9 TDI 130bhp and I could get 55mpg no problem an a 40 mile spin to the mad cow. then from there on bye bye mpg. by the time i reach my destination it could be as low as 35mpg. So is there really a point? the polo bluemotion people are claiming with careful driving they can get 80+mpg which I do believe, but then it will drop sooner or later. Diesels have more particulate matter from the exhaust and other pollutants which a prius dosen't. I stand to be corrected on this as I'm not an expert! I spend 70 euros pw on my audi a4 automatic tdi. it will do about 600 miles from a 70 litre tank. at it's very best which is good for an auto,dsg better! But the polo bluemotion would cost me less to run and service. Vw audi service is a rip off in carlow anyway. Sheehy's in carlow charge €450.00 for a poxy oil change for god sake. The oil costs 80.00 and the filter 10 in Bradshaws! But I need the 4 rings stamped in the book to sell it on! That's why I'm looking at reducing my costs to get from A to B. To be honest I would rather the prius over the polo anyday. It's much better built and for the size of it, and being petrol,and cvt automatic, to get 50mpg + is excellent! + it shuts off the engine in slow traffic and when you are stopped. The diesel dosen't. There are so many +'s and -'S. If people want to reduce emissions then parents should not buy cars for their darlings so they can drive to school, Did ye ever think you would see the day? what was wrong with the good old bike? Sure you might get a bit wet, Boo Hoo! Get the bus, and that goes for us all. Put solar water panels on your roof, Invest in a wind turbine if you live in the country. If every house in ireland switched all their lights to energy saving and not those halogen spots. Better insulation, Put on a jumper and don't turn up the heat. Bla Bla. get where I'm comming from? Check this review of the polo Bluemotion. http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/04/10/u-k-channel-4-test-drives-the-volkswagen-polo-bluemotion/

itarumaa

Maybe one issue here is that people don´t realize that hybrids are mentioned / planned for city traffic. Drive 1.6l car in the city and then do the same with the hybrid, there should be a big difference with the economy. Take same cars to motorway and suprise, no big difference. The whole point of hybrid is to use that in the city traffic, when it can work its magic, but on the motorway it only uses its petrol engine, so of course there is no major difference.

galwaytt

junkyard wrote: »

I don't honestly think any true car enthusiast would be seen dead in an electric car........... I know I wouldn't be anyway, they're truly horrible, bland boring things and have reduced cars to domestic appliance status.:p

ooooh, I dunno.......I saw this last summer in the UK...... a hybrid I would drive at any rate.......

galwaytt

Deleted User wrote: »

........... But I need the 4 rings stamped in the book to sell it on!

...where on earth did you get that? The dealer? :rolleyes:

That is complete nonsense. Once the car is out of warranty, there is no -even slight - justificiation for paying main dealer prices for services.

Even a new car can be serviced by a non-franchised dealer and your warranty is not affected - this is law, btw.........

So, start by getting a good local independant to do your service and you'll halve that cost straight away.

+1 on the small much-cheapo-to-run car as a 2nd veh, though........my SO is thinking of doing the same right now.....

JHMEG

itarumaa wrote: »

Maybe one issue here is that people don´t realize that hybrids are mentioned / planned for city traffic. Drive 1.6l car in the city and then do the same with the hybrid, there should be a big difference with the economy.

The wife's Civic IMA does about 52mpg around town. I was in an Insight a few years ago.. 75mpg around town and 97mpg on a run.

MuffinsDa

junkyard wrote: »

I don't honestly think any true car enthusiast would be seen dead in an electric car........... I know I wouldn't be anyway, they're truly horrible, bland boring things and have reduced cars to domestic appliance status.:p

how about this one?! :
http://images.google.ie/images?q=honda+insight&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

Hi Galwaytt. I would not buy An audi without a complete service record. I know what can go wrong with them. I know local mechanics don't really care about the oil the put in for instance. The car had a new gearbox Ecu fitted along with the hydrualic something or other was replaced. Audi in Ireland don't fix them they replace them! My brother had the same problem. He bought the car 2nd hand, and lucky for him the garage had to foot the bill! they put a brand new box in! So for reasons like that I would not buy it without a full service record. I can do the oil and filters, pads, discs. not timing belt water pump. And gearbox oil has to be replaced every 40k miles. so A record is essential.

JHMEG

Electric car makes Porsche GT look all show and no go in a drag race... Jeez, it gets truly spanked!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7352118104883452737

E92

And of course what JHMEG did not tell you is that the electric car is a rival for an Arial Atom! Comparing an Arial Atom rival with a Ferrari or a Porsche Careera GT is like comparing chalk with cheese.

JHMEG

They're all cars... And not just any Porsche... a $400,000 Porsche Carrara GT... Porsche's finest @ 612bhp!

Forgot to mention it spanked a Ferrari earlier in the video, thanks for mentioning that E92.