N7 and N2 Sign Posts

Colm R

Hi all

First post here, and I'd like to bring up a pet hate about the new sign posts on the Naas and Ashborne roads which I travel regularly.

I've seen posts on this topic before but does anyone know if the NRA are going to rectify the problem, and if so when?

For those not familliar with the area, the NRA have installed gantries on both the N7 and N2, which indicate that the left most lane is an exit lane, when in fact it is anything but. This goes against standard road safety procedures - Keep Left unless overtaking.

Also it causes drivers who, for example, are not familliar with the area, into the middle lane for fear of being forced off the road. This is unsafe, as such drivers would like to driver at a lower speed to ensure they use the correct lanes.

There is also a dangerous inconsistency. Take for example someone travelling up the N7 towards Dublin and stays to the middle lane as they don't want to exit. They are not familliar with the area and don't want to make a mistake. After passing a few exits, the driver realises that s/he can go into the left lane. He continues on the M50(N) and then exits at the N2, because they are tourists and want to go to Newgrange. The first overhead gantry indicates that the left most lane is an exit lane and the gantry is the same as s/he previously encountered on the N7. However this lane is an exit lane as the N2 drops a lane to become two lanes after the first exit.

After just managing to get into the correct lane, the driver is now confused. Each overhead gantry thereafter now indicates that the left lane is an exit lane and you must remain in the overtaking lane to remain on the N2.

This prevents tourists and others from taking it easy in the left lane.

Another thing that annoys me about the overhead gantries, are for example on the N7, where it is 3 lanes wide, the 2 right most lanes have seperate signs indicating the same thing. For example, they say Dublin and Rathcoole, twice. This makes clutter. Is one wide sign covering the 3 lanes, saying Dublin, Rathcoole, M50 not better to read, and then a seperate sign to the left saying the next exit is, say Kill.

Sorry for the rant. Are they going to fix it. And if so, why not just fix it now.

Chris_533976

The NRA are doing sign replacement fairly soon which will hopefully cure all this. Whoever ok-ed the current gantries and allowed them to be put up is an idiot.

Alun

They carried out many similar atrocities on the southern section ofthe M50 when it opened, but have changed them since then. Many people here emailed and rang them, including myself, and they finally repented, although taking the viewpoint that they weren't wrong (which they patently were), but just possibly a little misleading.

icdg

Ah yes, the by now infamous Dodgey Gantries. Made their debut late 2005 on the M50 South Eastern Motorway, also to be seen on the M50 Dublin Port Tunnel, N2 Finglas-Ashbourne and N7 Naas Road (with a minority of other appearances). Bane of drivers due to the fact that they signpost every exit as if it were a lane drop and blatantly encourage - as if people in Ireland needed encouragement already - driving in the outside lane. Also the replication of information is sheer madness.

Thankfully, they're mostly to be scrapped, and should be treated at this stage as experimental signage. If you want to see what will most likely be the final form of this signage, take a look at M7 J10 where signs were replaced a few months back. We're back to something nearer where we started (prior to this our gantry signs, which were very rarely used anyway, were meant to be identical to UK design) with one panel over the main line and a panel over the hard shoulder with an arrow pointing diagonal left to indicate the exit.

In fact the only part of the scheme set to be definitely kept (well they had to keep something, or the whole exercise would have to be deemed a costly failure) is the cantilever or half-gantry signage used 1/2 km from the exit. Also, they seem to be undecided on Next Exit signs (used instead of the 2km mini-map) - these have always been used on the M50 since the day it opened where the junction was with a national road, but they're beginning to spread to other junctions and other roads too. They're useful IMO, especially when the road concerned is leading to a lot of primary destinations, but break the principle that you present less information at first and then more as you approach the exit that the Anderson committee which designed the UK's motorway signs (and hence, basically our signs too) laid down.

You'd think that this episode would stop the NRA from interfering with the 1996 DOE Traffic Signs Manual (which if it were used to its letter would mean Ireland would have rather good signage, its based on the UK TSM which in turn is based on the UK Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions), but no, they've now gone and made a further amendment - instead of the the signs at the gore stating the destination, they're now going to have "Exit" and the junction number instead. Daft, although these signs are next to useless anyway no matter what you put on them (as if you haven't turned off by now, well you've missed your exit...)

murphaph

Haven't they just recently abolished the gore signs altogether, instead putting these signs at the start of the slip where the yello line begins to diverge? I'm sure I saw that in their recent publications.

Totally agree btw-should have just stuck with the 96 TSM-far from perfect but even so, would have given us one of the best signing systems in the world (no exaggeration!). Even better of course would be total adoption of UK signage!

nordydan

murphaph wrote: »

Even better of course would be total adoption of UK signage!

Does that include Londonderry on the signposts??

You are a cracked record...

murphaph

nordydan wrote: »

Does that include Londonderry on the signposts??

I couldn't care less what they call it. So long as it's consistent. Call it Doire for all I care but do it in mixed case Transport as Calvert & Kinneir intended it to be used and I'll be happy.

nordydan wrote: »

You are a cracked record...

As are you, my friend.

Why can't you admit we made a balls of butchering the UK TSM; one of the finest road signage documents in the world. And not content with butchering it, we then went on to completely fail to implement it and indeed totally ignore it it most cases and make up 'new' signs that are already covered by the TSM. But shur'n aren't we a great little country altogether. It's individuals like you who fail to acknowledge our shortcomings in your blinkered fashion who will hold this 26 county republic back forever!

Zoney

The gantry signs that are the subject of this thread are beyond any mere mangling of traffic signs manuals, Irish or UK (the source material).

Thousands were spent on signs that were randomly dreamt up by someone who one has to wonder if they actually even looked at any other countries signs, nevermind as to whether a second thought was given as to the implied meaning for what they did dream up.

People should be up in arms about it, it's a hideous waste of taxpayers money.

Skyhater

....they'll make the opposite f-up on the m50 when the 4th "between junction" lane opens..... The overhead gantry should say 'Exit Only' (preferably with Yellow/Orange Background), but i bet they won't!!!

Sometimes i wonder has anyone in the NRA ever drove in other countries????

Colm R

Skyhater wrote: »

....they'll make the opposite f-up on the m50 when the 4th "between junction" lane opens..... The overhead gantry should say 'Exit Only' (preferably with Yellow/Orange Background), but i bet they won't!!!

Sometimes i wonder has anyone in the NRA ever drove in other countries????

I would imagine that the 4th between junction lane will have to be a blue background as its a motorway. It will be fine as long as all the other lanes don't have repitition.

icdg

It doesn't need to explicitly say "Exit Only" - that's not prescibed for under our system at all - but there should be a downward arrow to indicate a lane drop (instead of a diagonal upward left arrow). Now you see why those dodgey gantries were so dodgey - they were indicating lane drops were there wasn't any!

murphaph

Skyhater wrote: »

....they'll make the opposite f-up on the m50 when the 4th "between junction" lane opens..... The overhead gantry should say 'Exit Only' (preferably with Yellow/Orange Background), but i bet they won't!!!

Sometimes i wonder has anyone in the NRA ever drove in other countries????

That "exit only" is a North American thing. There's nothing wrong with it per se but as icdg says, it's not prescribed here: we (should) use a downward arrow for a lane drop, however we have taken to using downward arrows in innapropriate places!

Skyhater

I don't care what they use.... as long as "locals" and "visitors" are clear (in good time) on what lanes exit the motorway.

Personally i like the "Exit Only" signs which I've also seen in Australia and New Zealand.
Just because it doesn't belong to a British convention that we are not copying properly anyway, doen't mean that it shouldn't be used.

While on the topic of overhead signs and North American Things..... i can't understand why we don't used overbridges as gantrys. A very cheep solution to provide extra signage.

Chris_533976

I'd guess that idiots on the bridge would undo the gantries or otherwise vandalise them.

mackerski

Skyhater wrote: »

I don't care what they use.... as long as "locals" and "visitors" are clear (in good time) on what lanes exit the motorway.

A good convention for this exists in the UK and much of Europe - fatter dashed lines separating a converging or diverging lane from the mainline.

Alun

mackerski wrote: »

A good convention for this exists in the UK and much of Europe - fatter dashed lines separating a converging or diverging lane from the mainline.

They do that here already, see the M11 / M50 interchange for example.

Colm R

I started this thread last December and there is still no sign of the NRA fixing them.

To my absolute horror, I travelled on the N25 East from Cork to Youghal and back again for the first time in a few years and saw that the same signs have been used here.

In one sense, they are correct as they indicate a lane drop approaching the tunnel exit as you approach Cork. But the other lanes have duplication of information over both lanes for Cork and Limerick.

I was shocked because correct sinage without duplication has been installed south of the river at Mahon, Douglas and the new Kinsale Interchange. Anyone on the inside know if these are going to be rectified.

At least the new M50, to a large part has the correct sineage. Duplication of Information here would be information overload across 4 lanes of traffic.

Chris_533976

Yeah that duplication is horrible, wish they'd fix those.

icdg

The ones on the M50 have been fixed (or at least, improved) so there's hope these signs (which were only an experiment in the first place, or so we've been led to believe) are going to be removed.

SeanW

nordydan wrote: »

You are a cracked record...

Pot, kettle, black.

nordydan

SeanW wrote: »

Pot, kettle, black.

Twas a joke, nevertheless a quick and witty response there 8+ months later. At least murphaph responded in the same year

M50 gantries are pretty good IMHO. More of the same would be welcomed.