What level of racism is tolerated on Boards.ie?

Gandalf23

nesf wrote: »

Personally I think people like that are being over sensitive and need to develop a thicker skin before venturing onto the internet.

Agreed ... to some extent.

The problem is that a lot of people are genuinely offended by racism. I think this should be respected. Its easy to say "develop thicker skin" or something equally inane. The really brave thing is to stand up against injustices and fight for what you believe in. If Rosa Parkes had decided to grow thicker skin she would still be at the back of the bus.

Gandalf23

Terry wrote: »

From what I can see, you're just looking for something to complain about.

No I'm not ... thats a very unfair statement.

Its easy to be complacent about stuff like this until it comes to your own door.

Altho to be honest I'm not surprised that someone from Confey would be so stupid and ignorant! Your all dirty illeterate knackers over there

DeVore

This is really another question that is appearing here simply because we have never had a place for society to query such things before the Internet. Its not particularly a Boards.ie question, its a wider question of what our society should allow in the diametrically opposed rights of "freedom of speech" and "freedom to live without hatred" (paraphrased).

My local shop is always full of ugly chavs who think its hilarious and "hard" to go up to the security guys and get in their faces about being "black bastards". Society needs to change before Boards will reflect something more acceptible. That said, we need not suffer the extremes of stupidity here...


DeV.

Gandalf23

DeVore wrote: »

This is really another question that is appearing here simply because we have never had a place for society to query such things before the Internet. Its not particularly a Boards.ie question, its a wider question of what our society should allow in the diametrically opposed rights of "freedom of speech" and "freedom to live without hatred" (paraphrased).

This is a good point. Countries and societies who have had mixed cultures (e.g. US, UK, Australia) for many years have clear and robust leglislation defining racism and leglislating against it. Many countries have very very clear laws and accepted norms which allow "freedom of speech" and "freedom to live without hatred". Because multi-culturalism is fairly new to Ireland we dont have the experience or law to deal with some of the attitudes of our society.

DeVore wrote: »

My local shop is always full of ugly chavs who think its hilarious and "hard" to go up to the security guys and get in their faces about being "black bastards". Society needs to change before Boards will reflect something more acceptible. That said, we need not suffer the extremes of stupidity here...

Well said. I have also seen racist behaviour (saw some last night in fact ... ) which would have you arrested in the US.

GuanYin

DeVore wrote: »

This is really another question that is appearing here simply because we have never had a place for society to query such things before the Internet. Its not particularly a Boards.ie question, its a wider question of what our society should allow in the diametrically opposed rights of "freedom of speech" and "freedom to live without hatred" (paraphrased).

My local shop is always full of ugly chavs who think its hilarious and "hard" to go up to the security guys and get in their faces about being "black bastards". Society needs to change before Boards will reflect something more acceptible. That said, we need not suffer the extremes of stupidity here...


DeV.

Sorry for replying here, when it could as easily be a humanities debate, but isn't it a boards.ie question?

I mean, I'm sure as much as a good sample population as boards.ie is of the overall Irish population, I imagine that there are higher overall levels of both affluence and education among the boards.ie community versus the overall Irish population.

You talk about the chavs and knackers being hard and racist, but overall are they a significant population of the boards.ie community?

Are their prejudices from the same root as those of the 5 guys in ties that you'll hear bemoaning immigrants in the schoolhouse bar on a thursday night after work?

I'm about as anti-prejudice as they come, but I'd encourage the biggoted and even racist points of view on boards, so long as they are presented in an acceptable way.

Why? Because it's better to know your enemy. I think its a far better thing to have both sides of the coin up there and show the arguments for what they are, better or for worse, than just sweep and censure the ones we don't like.

nesf

Gandalf23 wrote: »

The problem is that a lot of people are genuinely offended by racism. I think this should be respected. Its easy to say "develop thicker skin" or something equally inane. The really brave thing is to stand up against injustices and fight for what you believe in. If Rosa Parkes had decided to grow thicker skin she would still be at the back of the bus.

Yeah, but there's a difference between someone simply being offensive and someone advocating/pushing a racist agenda. It's important to draw the distinction between inane generalisations like the example you gave and something more structured and "agenda" like. This is all down to context as was mentioned earlier in the thread.

We shouldn't look to remove all possibly offensive remarks from this site, we should look to stop people using this site as a platform to push a racist/whatever agenda.

PeakOutput

We shouldn't look to remove all possibly offensive remarks from this site, we should look to stop people using this site as a platform to push a racist/whatever agenda.

i would rather see them being allowed to voice their opinion in full in the relevant forum and then have one of the numerous intelligent people who use boards daily pick their arguments apart with practiced ease tbh. this way its not pure censorship and people can see the genuine falsehoods in whatever argument it happens to be.

now i understand this may not mould well with boards's view on freedom of speech and i accept that while disagreeing with it at the same time

nesf

PeakOutput wrote: »

i would rather see them being allowed to voice their opinion in full in the relevant forum and then have one of the numerous intelligent people who use boards daily pick their arguments apart with practiced ease tbh. this way its not pure censorship and people can see the genuine falsehoods in whatever argument it happens to be.

now i understand this may not mould well with boards's view on freedom of speech and i accept that while disagreeing with it at the same time

What I was referring to are the ones who front a pretence of being moderates while constantly twisting threads a bit more toward racism/whatever. Slightly more complicated forms of "I'm not racist but..". Shills for racism basically.

Hobbes

PeakOutput wrote: »

i would rather see them being allowed to voice their opinion in full in the relevant forum and then have one of the numerous intelligent people who use boards daily pick their arguments apart with practiced ease tbh.

Which is what normally happens however the problem there is that the majority of said posts (not all, but majority) tend to be based on gut feelings, or friend of a friends neighbor, etc. When you point to actual facts you get blasted as being liberal/PC Brigade. Or they nitpick on something like for example user (A) asks them to back up some claim they have made, User (B) calls them a racist or some other name and the thread descends into why they won't respond to request by (A) because (B) called them a name.

As for "What level of racism is tolerated" I would of thought none. For example talking about immigration control isn't racist, however a lot of "racists" can't discuss it without bringing the prejudices into the argument.

Terry

Gandalf23 wrote: »

No I'm not ... thats a very unfair statement.

Its easy to be complacent about stuff like this until it comes to your own door.

Altho to be honest I'm not surprised that someone from Confey would be so stupid and ignorant! Your all dirty illeterate knackers over there

I might have taken that seriously if your spelling had been a bit better.

the_syco

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Well said. I have also seen racist behaviour (saw some last night in fact ... ) which would have you arrested in the US.

And I've seen ladies dressed with little clothes which would've gotten them arrested in some Middle Eastern countries...

psi wrote: »

You talk about the chavs and knackers being hard and racist, but overall are they a significant population of the boards.ie community?

I only saw him mentioning chav's.

=-=

Oh, and it's now nearly racist to discuss immigration, and totally racist to say that they should do anything but stay here and take our jobs/money/free houses/guns/crime/scams/women/do f**k all, or even to say they should actually work.

There's being racist, holding a racist view, and discussing a racist topic. The 1st two are bad. The third the PC folk will want you to believe is bad, but the only thing other than discuss a topic, is to ignore it. And not ignoring why X people goto Ireland to do f**k all aside from beg is not racist: it's how we as a people talk to overcome such problems.

SimpleSam06

Maybe its time for an immigration forum?

Gandalf23

Terry wrote: »

I might have taken that seriously if your spelling had been a bit better.

I think your mising teh piont ... but thaank you for a very usefull and insitefull adition to teh debate.

Gandalf23

nesf wrote: »

Yeah, but there's a difference between someone simply being offensive and someone advocating/pushing a racist agenda. It's important to draw the distinction between inane generalisations like the example you gave and something more structured and "agenda" like.

I disagree, and with the greatest respect that’s a total cop out. It’s an impossible line to draw and impossible difference to distinguish. On a moderated forum like Boards.ie I believe blatant racism should not be tolerated in any form. (And by "racism" I mean any accepted definition of racism ... take your pick from the UN, dictionary, or multiple other legal definitions). I'm not expecting anyone to be "thought police", but where there is a clear example of racist comment this should not be tolerated.

I'd also worry about the ability of the mods here to police this adequately and make the correct call on whats "simply offensive" and what is "blatantly racist". I've seen some fantastic modding in my years here, but this is countered by other mods who seem more interested in spelling mistakes than dealing with racism and contributing positively to a fairly serious debate where longstanding members have genuine grievances.

I've seen people banned for almost nothing here, but others are alowed to spew insulting, ill-informed, racist stupidity and they are not even warned! Am I the only one to see something wrong with this?

Gandalf23

Hobbes wrote: »

As for "What level of racism is tolerated" I would of thought none. For example talking about immigration control isn't racist, however a lot of "racists" can't discuss it without bringing the prejudices into the argument.

This brings this thread back to my original question.

As many of the above posts show, it seems that a fairly high level of racism and prejudice is tolerated on Boards.ie.

nesf

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I disagree, and with the greatest respect that’s a total cop out. It’s an impossible line to draw and impossible difference to distinguish. On a moderated forum like Boards.ie I believe blatant racism should not be tolerated in any form. (And by "racism" I mean any accepted definition of racism ... take your pick from the UN, dictionary, or multiple other legal definitions). I'm not expecting anyone to be "thought police", but where there is a clear example of racist comment this should not be tolerated.

You draw the line differently to where I draw it. It's as simple as that. I don't think either of us are "right" but we're just arguing about lines in the sand here tbh.

WhiteWashMan

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I On a moderated forum like Boards.ie I believe blatant racism should not be tolerated in any form. (And by "racism" I mean any accepted definition of racism ... take your pick from the UN, dictionary, or multiple other legal definitions).

Does that mean we can use my definitions and lines?

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I'm not expecting anyone to be "thought police", but where there is a clear example of racist comment this should not be tolerated.

Why?

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I'd also worry about the ability of the mods here to police this adequately and make the correct call on whats "simply offensive" and what is "blatantly racist".

So, what do you propose we do about it then?

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I've seen some fantastic modding in my years here, but this is countered by other mods who seem more interested in spelling than dealing with racism and contributing positively to a fairly serious debate where longstanding members have genuine grievances.

And some mods are worried about using the word scum in context, or whether talking about topography is deemed going off topic in a weather thread, if the length of your tea break is relevant in a work forum, or if talking about local business is allowed in a regional forum...

We all have our issues that concern us. You just happen to be concerned at what you perceive as 'racism' on these forums. I'm concerned about the fluidity and usability of the forums I Cmod. The mods are concerned about user issues (I hope!). We all have our concerns and issues.

YOu see, I don't see the racism you are talking about. I see an awful lot of ignorant, and half assed opinions. I see an awful lot of nation bashing, just because thats what people do. Check out AH any time you want to read some diatribe on how the English are awful, how the Americans are stupid, how the French are smelly, how Ireland sucks, how Limerick people suck, how Culchies suck, how Jackeens suck.

Take your pick. Technically, these all constitute racism. More importantly, for me, this shows the level of ignorance displayed by the people who post in them. And some of them are long time members who are older than me. Im surprised sometimes at some of the people who enter into these mass generalisation bashing contests. But its not just race. The amount of misogyny shown on boards is quite outrageous. There is a complete lack of respect for women shown by a large number of users on this site. Is it sexism? No, I dont truely believe it is. Its just just stupid generalisations from people who are too lazy to form an opinion of their own, or who havent learned to look at the many facets or angles of a situation.

Its annoying, by thats pretty much all it is.

Now you can feel free to educate all the users you want, but take it from me, for every user you educate, 3 will take their place in the form of newbies and the cycle will start again.

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I've seen people banned for almost nothing here, but others are alowed to spew insulting, ill-informed, racist stupidity and they are not even warned! Am I the only one to see something wrong with this?

Again, Id ask that you start to provide some suggestions on what to do. While boards.ie has been around long enough to run pretty well, we always like it when people with grievences also provide suggestions on how to tackle them.

I dont tolerate racism. I do tolerate points of view. But I am also not going to delete someones post just becuase they are a ****ing idiot.

If you put up a thread saying that all Americans are stupid, I think most people will read it and say 'Man, what a twat the OP is'.

I think the mods do a good job actually of telling what is racist, and what is merely jingoism or nationality bashing.
Besides, I don't think boards.ie would be able to function if we were to implement a system whereby we deleted and banned for every single mention that you appear to consider racism.
Using the common sense approach has always worked for me, and I dont envision changing anytime soon.
It certainly works better than the strict 'read the charter;dont break the rules' type forums that exist on this site.

On a side note, I find the most amusing thing to be the fact that we have always had some sort of bashing going on, but it has only apparently become an issue with the perceived bashing of the French. Have we just ignored the million and one UK bashing threads, USA bashing threads, German bashing threads etc? Whats so specially about a bunch of cheese eating surrender monkeys?

The Sweeper

DeVore wrote: »

My local shop is always full of ugly chavs who think its hilarious and "hard" to go up to the security guys and get in their faces about being "black bastards".

This is a distinctly chavist comment.

Are all chavs ugly? No.
Does the fact that your local shop is fully of ugly chavs mean everyone in your local shop is an ugly chav? Probably not.
Are all ugly people chavs? No.


"I do not like Nigerians".

This is opinion, not racism.

"They are ruining our economy. They freeload off the system. The government gives them money for nothing. They are thieving bastards."

This is racist.

'Ware generalisations - they, them, they're, all, and even 'generally' ("Nigerians are generally all thieves.") Generalisation is at the heart of racism.

DeVore

Gandalf23 wrote: »

This brings this thread back to my original question.

As many of the above posts show, it seems that a fairly high level of racism and prejudice is tolerated on Boards.ie.

I would contend that actually we tolerate less racism here then is tolerated in real life[tm].

I live in the city centre and have done for most of my adult life. The amount of explicitly or indeed tacitly accepted racism is considerable imho.

DeV.

Gandalf23

nesf wrote: »

You draw the line differently to where I draw it. It's as simple as that. I don't think either of us are "right" but we're just arguing about lines in the sand here tbh.

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

Does that mean we can use my definitions and lines?

Well no actually, I'm right. There are legally accepted definitions of what constitites "racism". These are enshrined in Irish and international law. I have consistently quoted these definitions in all my posts above (Google is your friend ... ).

There should be absolutely no debate on where the line is drawn or how this is defined ... it is very clear. Just because you personally have a different definition of "theft" or "speeding" does not make you correct and the law wrong. We cant just make up our own definitions of things ...

Gandalf23

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

We all have our issues that concern us. You just happen to be concerned at what you perceive as 'racism' on these forums. I'm concerned about the fluidity and usability of the forums I Cmod. The mods are concerned about user issues (I hope!). We all have our concerns and issues.

YOu see, I don't see the racism you are talking about. I see an awful lot of ignorant, and half assed opinions. I see an awful lot of nation bashing, just because thats what people do. Check out AH any time you want to read some diatribe on how the English are awful, how the Americans are stupid, how the French are smelly, how Ireland sucks, how Limerick people suck, how Culchies suck, how Jackeens suck.

Take your pick. Technically, these all constitute racism. More importantly, for me, this shows the level of ignorance displayed by the people who post in them. And some of them are long time members who are older than me. Im surprised sometimes at some of the people who enter into these mass generalisation bashing contests. But its not just race. The amount of misogyny shown on boards is quite outrageous. There is a complete lack of respect for women shown by a large number of users on this site. Is it sexism? No, I dont truely believe it is. Its just just stupid generalisations from people who are too lazy to form an opinion of their own, or who havent learned to look at the many facets or angles of a situation.

Its annoying, by thats pretty much all it is.

Now you can feel free to educate all the users you want, but take it from me, for every user you educate, 3 will take their place in the form of newbies and the cycle will start again.

I dont tolerate racism. I do tolerate points of view. But I am also not going to delete someones post just becuase they are a ****ing idiot.

With respect, there seems to be a lot of contradictory comment in your post. Very interesting that you say there are a lot of posts that technically constitute racism, and in the next breath say that you dont tolerate racism!!???!!

"Racism" is very clearly defined, and its crazy that any individual (even an all knowing mod) can just make up their own definition of racism and operate on that basis. Every definition of racism I've given is a well established legal definition. What you call my "percieved" views are not perceived ... they are legal fact. There is no wriggle room here.

nesf

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Just because you personally have a different definition of "theft" or "speeding" does not make you correct and the law wrong. We cant just make up our own definitions of things ...

Sure, but what the argument is about is where to draw the line between what is acceptable and unacceptable where people are expressing views that are possibly in favour of speeding or theft. Should we remove all posts that hint that speeding is ok in certain circumstances. If someone is boasting about their car's top speed are the tacitly advocating speeding etc. Should we remove posts that claim that it's ok for a starving man to steal bread for his family.

No one is suggesting that actual calls for racist violence or laws be entertained but there is no law in this country that says an individual cannot dislike a certain nationality. Which is the crux of the matter.

Gandalf23

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

I think the mods do a good job actually of telling what is racist, and what is merely jingoism or nationality bashing.
Besides, I don't think boards.ie would be able to function if we were to implement a system whereby we deleted and banned for every single mention that you appear to consider racism.
Using the common sense approach has always worked for me, and I dont envision changing anytime soon.
It certainly works better than the strict 'read the charter;dont break the rules' type forums that exist on this site.

Some of the mods do a good job, others do not. But I wont argue this point ... people reading this can make up their own minds on the ability of the mods here.

This raises an interesting point ... one that Boards.ie will have to deal with in the context of the changing face of modern Ireland. Should these forums reflect "real life" public opinion, or should a different set of standards apply here? You mods are the people who will have to decide this, and you cant have it both ways. An "a la carte" approach simply wont cut it. Neither will an approach where we are allowed to make up our own definitions of things and work to those rules where legal definitions already exist.

I find it sorta funny that any talk of where to download the latest episode of "Heroes" or anything about MCD is immediately deleted and the poster probably banned, whereas racist comment is allowed without even a warning to the poster.

Gandalf23

nesf wrote: »

Sure, but what the argument is about is where to draw the line between what is acceptable and unacceptable where people are expressing views that are possibly in favour of speeding or theft. Should we remove all posts that hint that speeding is ok in certain circumstances. If someone is boasting about their car's top speed are the tacitly advocating speeding etc. Should we remove posts that claim that it's ok for a starving man to steal bread for his family.

No one is suggesting that actual calls for racist violence or laws be entertained but there is no law in this country that says an individual cannot dislike a certain nationality. Which is the crux of the matter.

This is not the crux of the matter ... the OP was about how much "racism" is tolerable on Boards.ie. This is very different to "dislike of a certain nationality". My argument is that racism of any nature should not be tolerated. Others have different views and seem willing to tolerate significant racist comment, and thats ok. Whats not ok is that you mods can make up a definition of racism that suits your purposes and work to that definition. This is made worse by the fact that you hold such a strong line on posts about downloading copyrighted torrents or MCD concert ticket prices.

Anyone else see the double standards here?

Boards.ie is at a bit of a crossroads here and I believe some hard decisions need to be made. Its fine if you want these forums to reflect real life. I talk about downloading Heroes in real life. I complain about MCD bitterly in real life. Both of these things I would be banned for here. But I'd be allowed to spew ill-informed and ignorant racist crap to my hearts content and not be banned or even sanctioned!!???!!

Surely you can see there is something wrong with this?

Boston

Gandalf23 wrote: »

This is not the crux of the matter ... the OP was about how much "racism" is tolerable on Boards.ie. This is very different to "dislike of a certain nationality". My argument is that racism of any nature should not be tolerated. Others have different views and seem willing to tolerate significant racist comment, and thats ok. Whats not ok is that you mods can make up a defitition of racism that suits your purposes and work to that definition. This is made worse by the fact that you hold such a strong line on posts about downloading copyrighted torrents or MCD concert ticket prices.

Anyone else see the double standards here?

Expressing a racist viewpoint is not illegal. Downloading copyrighted material is, as is marking up concert tickets. If you can't see the distinction between illegal behavior and unpleasant behavior then you are not only oversensitive but also deluded.

Gandalf23

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

I'd ask that you start to provide some suggestions on what to do. While boards.ie has been around long enough to run pretty well, we always like it when people with grievences also provide suggestions on how to tackle them.

I would be happy to do this. If I'm not just wasting my time that is.

Mods need to discuss this in the context of where Boards.ie is going and what exactly Boards.ie is. Some form of acceptible definition of "racism" needs to be agreed, and agreement also needs to be reached on how racism is dealt with. Perhaps there is even room for an "immigration" or "racism" forum?

Also have a look here and here ... essential reading for mods! The best way to combat this is education and information.

I have a few other ideas on this, but I'm sorta pissing against the wind if people dont agree with my original point.

Boston

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I would be happy to do this. If I'm not just wasting my time that is.

Mods need to discuss this in the context of where Boards.ie is going and what exactly Boards.ie is. Some form of acceptible definition of "racism" needs to be agreed, and agreement also needs to be reached on how racism is dealt with. Perhaps there is even room for an "immigration" or "racism" forum?

Also have a look here and here ... essential reading for mods! The best way to combat this is education and information.

I have a few other ideas on this, but I'm sorta pissing against the wind if people dont agree with my original point.

You know, I'm probably the most on your side, and even I think you're wrong. Why should there be one policy for racists posts across all boards, and why single out racism and not homophobia or sexism. While I made a joke about the English, those that take it seriously have cause far more trouble here then any "ism" you can think of, so why not come down hard on that?

Tigerbaby

Your lives must be so hard to live. Every moment, thought, decision and reflection must be arrived at within the sacred guidelines of what is or is not "correct".

Learn to laugh at yourselves a little , please . Enjoy the World a little more, and dont be too precious. I find humour to be an excellent bridge between peoples. Generally ye find that people just want to eat , live , love.. pretty normal stuff. We dont need Gestapo thought Police. Just treat people with dignity, as you too would like to be treated, and we'll get along just fine.

Life is much too important to be treated seriously.

Relax.

Tigerbaby.

Hobbes

Gandalf23 wrote: »

As many of the above posts show, it seems that a fairly high level of racism and prejudice is tolerated on Boards.ie.

It does? Can you back that up with proof? The reason I ask is that certain other sites claim the complete reverse of boards.ie. I am sure they would love to know this.

nesf

Boston wrote: »

Expressing a racist viewpoint is not illegal. Downloading copyrighted material is, as is marking up concert tickets. If you can't see the distinction between illegal behavior and unpleasant behavior then you are not only oversensitive but also deluded.

+1