Should we get our child baptised?

nesf

di11on wrote: »

Sure... the crux of the problem is that too many of our schools are run by the catholic church. This results in a situation, the absurdity of which I was highlighting with the above analogy. Of course there are differences. But to the non catholic trying to get their child into school, all they know is they are being refused because their child is not catholic. I doubt this situation has been allowed to develop in any other civilised country.

The crux of the problem is that the councils seriously dropped the ball and allowed housing development without adequate services provision. Few developed countries have had the population explosion we've had over the past decade either.Third level is easy, it's centralised to a very large extent. Primary level education is a lot trickier, it's very decentralised and we inherited a system that was never designed to handle half the country's population heading to the east coast.

faceman

Its been interesting to read people’s experiences and views on this thread. I myself am Catholic by choice. I was raised a Catholic, fell out with God during my teenage years and thus become anti-catholic. However through my travels around the third world, educating myself on world religions and personal spiritual experiences I decided that I wanted to be a Catholic. However its interesting how much I learnt about being a Catholic that we don’t learn in Ireland. For example, a catholic is only required to attend Mass once a year to be considered a Catholic.

I do think its unfair the way schools to play bias on a child’s religion to deem them acceptable to entry. As a Catholic I also find it insulting that many non Catholic parents feel forced to baptise their children for the sake of school entry and for an excuse for a pi$$ up. However I don’t blame the parents for that.

I went to a Christian brother school when I did live in Ireland and I hated it. It was too extreme. Secondary schools should educate kids on other religions. I do believe its acceptable for a school that is teaches protestant or catholic ways to prioritise children of that denomination. But schools like this shouldn’t be in the majority in Ireland nowadays.

I do personally believe that it is a parent’s responsibility to raise a child with a level of spirituality be it a formal religion or otherwise. Not many parents do this. I don’t feel that Sunday Mass or most schools are the best place for a child to learn the teachings of God. Its boring, repetitive and often doesn’t offer something the child can relate to. Religion is personal to an individual, including children.

Someone mentioned an analogy of making religious background the basis of entry into college. I don’t really understand the point that is trying to be made or how it is deemed to be the same.

In summary I sympathise with the OP. Perhaps those of you not of Catholic religion should get together and discuss with local TD’s or lobby the Dept Of Ed?

DinoBot

faceman wrote: »

I do think its unfair the way schools to play bias on a child’s religion to deem them acceptable to entry.

........... I do believe its acceptable for a school that is teaches protestant or catholic ways to prioritise children of that denomination.

Not sure if your for or against it ??

Im not catholic but I am lucky enough to have an educate together school close to me for the kids.

I find it strange that you say it may be okay to prioritise children of a particular faith in schools at the exclusion of others. If this was done in any other place there would be outcry. Imagine for a second if jobs advertised "Catholics only" or "Catholics will be given priority during this interview". Would that be acceptable ?

Why do we accept this from our education system ? We live in a multi-denominational country. I think its healthy to express this in our classrooms as well.

Nevyn

and should children be segratated due to religion ?

Rev Hellfire

Thaedydal wrote: »

and should children be segratated due to religion ?

In an ideal world no.
But the simple fact is we have a system which is good enough, certainly one which might need improving but not one which needs or merits radical change due to the issues raised here.

Nevyn

I don't think it is good enough at all.
I think how schools are planned, built and funded in this country is utterly shambolic.

DinoBot

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

In an ideal world no.
But the simple fact is we have a system which is good enough, certainly one which might need improving but not one which needs or merits radical change due to the issues raised here.

Well I think people who have fell foul of the system you think does not need radical change will completely disagree with you on that one. I can only assume you either have no kids of school going age or you benefit from the religious segregation.

faceman

DinoBot wrote: »

Not sure if your for or against it ??

Im not catholic but I am lucky enough to have an educate together school close to me for the kids.

I find it strange that you say it may be okay to prioritise children of a particular faith in schools at the exclusion of others. If this was done in any other place there would be outcry. Imagine for a second if jobs advertised "Catholics only" or "Catholics will be given priority during this interview". Would that be acceptable ?

Why do we accept this from our education system ? We live in a multi-denominational country. I think its healthy to express this in our classrooms as well.

you seem to have misquoted and misinterpreted my point. What i originally said was:

wrote:

I do believe its acceptable for a school that is teaches protestant or catholic ways to prioritise children of that denomination. But schools like this shouldn’t be in the majority in Ireland nowadays..... Secondary schools should educate kids on other religions

the ideal behind religion being relevant to our schools is that it's schools were children are being educated including spiritual and in some cases moral topics. When you look at some of the poorer areas in ireland, it is primarily the schools and the church which is trying to instill a spiritual sense into a child's upbringing. Education is what helps tackle prejudice.

DinoBot

faceman wrote: »

Its been interesting to read people’s experiences and views on this thread. I myself am Catholic by choice. I was raised a Catholic, fell out with God during my teenage years and thus become anti-catholic. However through my travels around the third world, educating myself on world religions and personal spiritual experiences I decided that I wanted to be a Catholic. However its interesting how much I learnt about being a Catholic that we don’t learn in Ireland. For example, a catholic is only required to attend Mass once a year to be considered a Catholic.

I do think its unfair the way schools to play bias on a child’s religion to deem them acceptable to entry. As a Catholic I also find it insulting that many non Catholic parents feel forced to baptise their children for the sake of school entry and for an excuse for a pi$$ up. However I don’t blame the parents for that.

I went to a Christian brother school when I did live in Ireland and I hated it. It was too extreme. Secondary schools should educate kids on other religions. I do believe its acceptable for a school that is teaches protestant or catholic ways to prioritise children of that denomination. But schools like this shouldn’t be in the majority in Ireland nowadays.

I do personally believe that it is a parent’s responsibility to raise a child with a level of spirituality be it a formal religion or otherwise. Not many parents do this. I don’t feel that Sunday Mass or most schools are the best place for a child to learn the teachings of God. Its boring, repetitive and often doesn’t offer something the child can relate to. Religion is personal to an individual, including children.

Someone mentioned an analogy of making religious background the basis of entry into college. I don’t really understand the point that is trying to be made or how it is deemed to be the same.

In summary I sympathise with the OP. Perhaps those of you not of Catholic religion should get together and discuss with local TD’s or lobby the Dept Of Ed?

misquoted and misinterpreted your point....no. So I have included the full post and only highlighted the points you made.

faceman wrote: »

the ideal behind religion being relevant to our schools is that it's schools were children are being educated including spiritual and in some cases moral topics. When you look at some of the poorer areas in ireland, it is primarily the schools and the church which is trying to instill a spiritual sense into a child's upbringing. Education is what helps tackle prejudice.

But I dont feel that teaching religious discrimination is in any way a "moral" thing. And I think the church is the LAST group I would want to be teaching my kids about morals IMO.

faceman

DinoBot wrote: »

misquoted and misinterpreted your point....no. So I have included the full post and only highlighted the points you made.

its down to choice and the lack thereof in ireland. if we had more schools, then it wouldnt be a problem.

But I dont feel that teaching religious discrimination is in any way a "moral" thing. And I think the church is the LAST group I would want to be teaching my kids about morals IMO.

perhaps you raise your children to high moral standard and thats good. However what morals to the catholic church have that are wrong? None i think. They have guidelines for practicing catholics that i dont agree with on contraception etc, but thats a seperate issue.

What moral issues to you disagree with? Note im not trying to say our catholic schools are great, because many are not. In fact i think our whole education system is based in the stone age when compared with other countries. I am merely asking the question.

DinoBot

faceman wrote: »

perhaps you raise your children to high moral standard and thats good. However what morals to the catholic church have that are wrong? None i think. They have guidelines for practicing catholics that i dont agree with on contraception etc, but thats a seperate issue.

What moral issues to you disagree with? Note im not trying to say our catholic schools are great, because many are not. In fact i think our whole education system is based in the stone age when compared with other countries. I am merely asking the question.

well leaving the many cases of genocide and killing of innocent people which occur in the bible out of the discussion ( ) I think the church is not in a position to teach morals mainly because of the series of accusations of child sexual abuse made against Roman Catholic priests and its failure to act upon information, and often to move priests who had received complaints from church to church in order to protect them and not the children.
I think the religion is rotten to its very core.

faceman

DinoBot wrote: »

well leaving the many cases of genocide and killing of innocent people which occur in the bible out of the discussion ( )

Ah come on now, while we are at it, lets boycott all german and uk goods/services too!

wrote:

I think the church is not in a position to teach morals mainly because of the series of accusations of child sexual abuse made against Roman Catholic priests and its failure to act upon information, and often to move priests who had received complaints from church to church in order to protect them and not the children.
I think the religion is rotten to its very core.

This point comes up often. There are no more child abusers in the priesthood than there are in any other profession. The decision not to take action was made by individuals, not God, and not be the general consensus. Do we bring it a step further and tell our kids priests are evil people?

DinoBot

faceman wrote: »

Do we bring it a step further and tell our kids priests are evil people?

Hell yeah !

No, I dont go that far (most of the time), but what I do tell them is that the priests do not talk to any god or supreme being any more then they speak to santa claus.

faceman

DinoBot wrote: »

Hell yeah !

No, I dont go that far (most of the time), but what I do tell them is that the priests do not talk to any god or supreme being any more then they speak to santa claus.

thats fair enough and similarly we tell our kids not to put any faith any strangers no matter what they do.

MOst priests, that i have met and trust, are very spiritually enlightened compared to average joe. I have a friend my age who is a priest, and despite what you might think, he's a good bloke to have a chat with. Then again my parish priest when i was growing up was off his rocker, he was an old schooler.

Rev Hellfire

DinoBot wrote: »

Well I think people who have fell foul of the system you think does not need radical change will completely disagree with you on that one. I can only assume you either have no kids of school going age or you benefit from the religious segregation.

As it happens I have kids at school and for pretty much everyone else who enrolled within a reasonable amount of time religion didn't come into it.

An evolution rather than a revolution is what is required (assuming any change is economically worthwhile in the first place) with regards to issue of patrons.

In the end of the day the state only has to provide you with an education not a convenient one, better to cater for the majority and then attempt to accommodate the square pegs in the round holes rather than the reverse.

DinoBot

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

An evolution rather than a revolution is what is required (assuming any change is economically worthwhile in the first place) with regards to issue of patrons.

Agree, but a revolution would be nice

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

In the end of the day the state only has to provide you with an education not a convenient one, better to cater for the majority and then attempt to accommodate the square pegs in the round holes rather than the reverse.

Its not a matter of convenience really. I see it as a human rights issue.
Myself and my wife are Irish and I think my children should not be discriminated against by the state just because of their religion. I dont see that request being a square peg in a round hole :rolleyes:

Rev Hellfire

DinoBot wrote: »

Its not a matter of convenience really. I see it as a human rights issue.

You have a 'right' to receive an education which I think everyone agrees with, you don't have a 'right' that the education you get is next door and matches your wishes exactly.

di11on

faceman wrote: »

the ideal behind religion being relevant to our schools is that it's schools were children are being educated including spiritual and in some cases moral topics. When you look at some of the poorer areas in ireland, it is primarily the schools and the church which is trying to instill a spiritual sense into a child's upbringing. Education is what helps tackle prejudice.

A parent should be entitled to send their child to a school with a particular religious ethos, if that is their choice.

However, the fact that in the majority of cases the local state school is catholic and in cases of excess demand, descriminates based on religion, this is utterly unacceptable and disgrace to Ireland. The state MUST actively plan for and provide local schools open to the entire community.

Nearly 10 years of prosperity and increasing multiculturalism and we still have this apartheid system.

faceman wrote: »

In summary I sympathise with the OP. Perhaps those of you not of Catholic religion should get together and discuss with local TD’s or lobby the Dept Of Ed?

Those of you OF the Catholic religion, should not, in my opinion, allow this situation to persist either. It's unfair and surely at odds with the spirit of Christianty anyhow! Besides all that, it makes us the laughing stock of Europe. People say Ireland is a different place now than it was 10/20 years ago - well we've a lot further to go.[/QUOTE]

faceman

di11on wrote: »

A parent should be entitled to send their child to a school with a particular religious ethos, if that is their choice.

However, the fact that in the majority of cases the local state school is catholic and in cases of excess demand, descriminates based on religion, this is utterly unacceptable and disgrace to Ireland. The state MUST actively plan for and provide local schools open to the entire community.

Nearly 10 years of prosperity and increasing multiculturalism and we still have this apartheid system.

FFS, dont you people read all the thread?

wrote:

Those of you OF the Catholic religion, should not, in my opinion, allow this situation to persist either. It's unfair and surely at odds with the spirit of Christianty anyhow! Besides all that, it makes us the laughing stock of Europe. People say Ireland is a different place now than it was 10/20 years ago - well we've a lot further to go.

Erm, well not all catholics agree with it either.

di11on

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

In the end of the day the state only has to provide you with an education not a convenient one, better to cater for the majority and then attempt to accommodate the square pegs in the round holes rather than the reverse.

Your language betrays a fundamental belief that catering for the majority to the detriment of the minority (square pegs) is acceptable.

This is a dangerous and arrogant philosphy.

The 14% of this country who do not declare themselves as catholics are not square pegs trying to fit in anywhere. Have you considered in your little analogy that there may be something wrong with your box. Maybe the lid just needs to be taken off so all the pegs can be put in equally. Maybe the state shouldn't care what shape they are and just educate them.

Rev Hellfire

di11on wrote: »

Your language betrays a fundamental belief that catering for the majority to the detriment of the minority (square pegs) is acceptable.

I believe it is both acceptable and preferable.

di11on wrote: »

Maybe the state shouldn't care what shape they are and just educate them.

Its a lovely thought. One we'd all happily subscribe to if we where starting afresh creating a whole new school system. But the fact is we are not, we have a system which works for the majority. The question is not if we change it but how quickly so that we don't have to burden the taxpayer unnecessarily.

di11on

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I believe it is both acceptable and preferable...

Interesting... you're in good company there with the likes of Mugabe, Slobodan Milosevic and Juvenal Kajelijeli.

Rev Hellfire

di11on wrote: »

Interesting... you're in good company there with the likes of Mugabe, Slobodan Milosevic and Juvenal Kajelijeli.

you told me.

nesf

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Its a lovely thought. One we'd all happily subscribe to if we where starting afresh creating a whole new school system. But the fact is we are not, we have a system which works for the majority. The question is not if we change it but how quickly so that we don't have to burden the taxpayer unnecessarily.

Which is the major issue. We are not in a position to demolish the old system and build a brand new one perfectly suited to today's demographics and values in any kind of short time frame. Most people would agree that if you were going to build a primary school system today that you wouldn't build what we have at the moment, similar to our transportation system. Unfortunately, we will have to deal with what we have to a large extent over the short to medium term.

Hotblack Desiato

faceman wrote: »

This point comes up often. There are no more child abusers in the priesthood than there are in any other profession.

That may well be true, but no other profession actively shielded its abuser members from justice, either. You cannot deny that the church utterly failed to protect children. This failure was a failure of the organisation not a few individuals you can blame when it suits you. It sickens me that this organisation is still primarily (no pun intended) responsible for the education of our nation's children. If any other group of people had acted as the hierarchy did, they would probably be in prison now.

Carrigart Exile

ninja900 wrote: »

That may well be true, but no other profession actively shielded its abuser members from justice, either. You cannot deny that the church utterly failed to protect children. This failure was a failure of the organisation not a few individuals you can blame when it suits you. It sickens me that this organisation is still primarily (no pun intended) responsible for the education of our nation's children. If any other group of people had acted as the hierarchy did, they would probably be in prison now.

Can I ask how you know this. All of the studies in the US found that the level of child abuse by catholic priests exactly matched that found in every other walk of life. There has been no other investigation of what cover ups if any, the masons for instance, instigated, indeed when the majority of these crimes were being committed the consensus of opinion was that it was not discussed and it was swept under the carpet. However, only the catholic church is pilloried, i wonder why that is?

Nevyn

The goverment neeed to change the system in terms of planning, funding and patronage.

parsi

Thaedydal wrote: »

The school buildings are paid for by the state, the running costs for the schools are funded by a per head grant per child which is given by the state, the staff and teachers wages are paid for by the state.

IN our school the resource room (portacabin) was paid for by the Department. The contents of same were paid for by fundrasing. As were the computers.

DinoBot

Carrigart Exile wrote: »

Can I ask how you know this. All of the studies in the US found that the level of child abuse by catholic priests exactly matched that found in every other walk of life.

Can you provide the reference for this study. I find it very alarming that other professions have had that level of abuse.

faceman

DinoBot wrote: »

Can you provide the reference for this study. I find it very alarming that other professions have had that level of abuse.

Why?