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Should we get our child baptised?

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13

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    #62
    Carrigart Exile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭Carrigart Exile


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2088561,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=11

    The John Jay Report and the U. S. Department of Education found that the abuse figures in the Catholic Church are similar to abuse in other institutions such as education

    The first link shows similar disgraceful happenings in the Church of England, the later point highlights incidences of child abuse by teachers is no different to that by priests in teh RC church. Yet only one organisation is pilloried, as I said, I wonder why


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    #63
    DinoBot
    Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭DinoBot


    faceman wrote: »
    Why?

    Are you asking why I want the reference or why I find it alarming ?

    Well I wanted the reference so I could read more about it and I find it alarming because the study might show it happens equally across all professions that work with children !


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    #64
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,627 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    DinoBot wrote: »
    Are you asking why I want the reference or why I find it alarming ?

    Well I wanted the reference so I could read more about it and I find it alarming because the study might show it happens equally across all professions that work with children !

    sorry i meant why would you find it alarming? Is there an expectation that priests are evil people?


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    #65
    di11on
    Registered Users Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭di11on


    Carrigart Exile wrote: »
    ...All of the studies in the US found that the level of child abuse by catholic priests exactly matched that found in every other walk of life...

    For me, this statistically verifies that the catholic church is an ineffective body incapable of having any impact on the moral behaviour of its members.

    As a religious and spiritual institution, I would expect its priests to display higher moral standards and behaviour than secular society. This seems not to be the case. What does anyone have to learn from them, then? What is the point?


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    #66
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    The church and child abuse is such a red herring in this.

    Op you should nto have to baptise your child in a religion to get your child educated.

    The more people who do this the harder it is to see what the real numbers are.


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    #67
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    The decision whether or not to get your child baptised is a fairly straightforward one. In the end of the day your first priority should be to your child and their education, if that means getting baptised to avail of a superior school then your choice is made. No point your child suffering due your (undoubted fine) principles.


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    #68
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    It should be a straight forward decision
    and should be a matter of spiritual and religions belief
    not due to having to wrangle an education which is garenteed by the constitution.


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    #69
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Thats all fine and dandy, but reality of the situation is different and thats what the OP has to work with.

    Simple fact is, if you have a catholic (or other faith) managed school which you suspect will be oversubscribed and wish to avail of it. Then get the child baptised, at the very least its a nice opportunity for a party and family get together. You can then campaign against it once you've secured your place should you feel strongly enough about it.


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    #70
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    If people can do that, lie taking oaths and not for fill them and commit fraud then that is their call.

    That type of mé féinsim won't accomplish anything.


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    #71
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    IThat type of mé féinsim won't accomplish anything.
    It'll accomplish the most important thing which is getting the child into the school :D


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    #72
    DinoBot
    Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭DinoBot


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Then get the child baptised, at the very least its a nice opportunity for a party and family get together. You can then campaign against it once you've secured your place should you feel strongly enough about it.

    That just makes the problem worse. It gives the impression that these catholic only schools are needed. If more people were willing to stand up and refuse this discrimination the better for everyone IMO.


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    #73
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,627 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    DinoBot wrote: »
    That just makes the problem worse. It gives the impression that these catholic only schools are needed. If more people were willing to stand up and refuse this discrimination the better for everyone IMO.

    thats all well and good but unfortunately we dont see parents lining the streets to protest or complain about it.


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    #74
    DinoBot
    Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭DinoBot


    faceman wrote: »
    thats all well and good but unfortunately we dont see parents lining the streets to protest or complain about it.

    Yeah pity.

    http://www.educatetogether.ie/2_campaigns/humanrightsandirished.html


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    #75
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    faceman wrote: »
    thats all well and good but unfortunately we dont see parents lining the streets to protest or complain about it.


    There are parents that do.

    Thing is this should be a societal issue that more people get behind rather then just those who are currently parents.

    The 'I'm alright Jack' attitude is what has FF back in government again and is responsible for a lot of the lack of accountability in this country.


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    #76
    di11on
    Registered Users Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭di11on


    Rev Hellfire is highlighting the absurdity of the situation very nicely indeed. He is dead right in what he says but it's a down right outrage that a parent has to consider getting their child baptised into a religion to get them a place in a decent school.

    It's this type of nonsense this country has to move beyond.

    Here's a snippet of what the OP, as parent, is committing to in having his/her child baptised:

    http://www.crivoice.org/infantbaptism.html:
    www.crivoice.org wrote:
    Minister to the parents: In presenting this child for baptism, you are hereby witnessing to your own personal Christian faith. [Parent's name] and [parent's name], do you announce your faith in Jesus Christ, and show that you want to study him, know him, love him, and serve him as his disciple and that you want your child to do the same?

    Parent’s response: [I do.]

    Minister to the parents: To this end it is your duty to teach [him/her], as soon as [he/she] is able to learn, the nature of this holy sacrament; to watch over [his/her] education, that [he/she] may not be led astray; to direct [his/her] feet to the sanctuary; to restrain [him/her] from evil associates and habits, and as much as in you lies, to bring [him/her] up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

    [Parent's name] and [parent's name], will you nurture this child in Christ’s holy church, that by your teaching and example [he/she] may be guided to accept God’s grace for [him/her] self, to profess [his/her] Faith openly, and to lead a Christian life? If so, answer "With God's help, I will."

    Parent’s response: [With God's help, I will.]


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    #77
    Carrigart Exile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭Carrigart Exile


    di11on wrote: »
    For me, this statistically verifies that the catholic church is an ineffective body incapable of having any impact on the moral behaviour of its members.

    As a religious and spiritual institution, I would expect its priests to display higher moral standards and behaviour than secular society. This seems not to be the case. What does anyone have to learn from them, then? What is the point?

    why for you does it not statistically verify the the teaching profession, the Church of England, etc are ineffective bodiesincapable of having any impact on the moral behaviour of its members. Sounds to me like you have your own prejudices.


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    #78
    DinoBot
    Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭DinoBot


    Carrigart Exile wrote: »
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2088561,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=11

    The John Jay Report and the U. S. Department of Education found that the abuse figures in the Catholic Church are similar to abuse in other institutions such as education

    The first link shows similar disgraceful happenings in the Church of England, the later point highlights incidences of child abuse by teachers is no different to that by priests in teh RC church. Yet only one organisation is pilloried, as I said, I wonder why

    Hi,

    I read that link but it was nothing about the abuse being the same as teaching staff as you have pointed out. Am I missing something ?



    __________________


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    #79
    Carrigart Exile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭Carrigart Exile


    The link was about the CEO, the commission reports mentioned, if you google them you will find they actually conclude with that analysis


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    #80
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    It's not just Catholic schools. This is from Ashton (Secondary) in Cork.

    "15. In relation to religious denomination, and as advised by the Patron, the following priority is followed:

    a) Students who are Church of Ireland (or other Anglican/Episcopalian Churches) or members of Churches which are full ecumenical partners of the Church of Ireland (member churches of the Irish Council of Churches, Churches Together in Britain and Ireland or Conference of European Churches i.e. Belgian/French/Dutch Reformed Church, Congregational Federation, Lutheran Church[1], Methodist Church, Moravian Church, Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church, Old Catholic Church, Orthodox Churches, Presbyterian Church, Religious Society of Friends, the Salvation Army and the United Reformed Church),

    b) Students who are members of other established Protestant churches e.g. Baptist Church and Pentecostal Church,

    c) Children of interchurch marriages,

    d) Students who are members of other Christian churches,

    e) Students who are adherents of other faiths,

    f) Students who are of no religion. "

    The school is local to me and whilst I knew it had a Protestant "vibe" I didn't realise that it was so formally stated...


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    #81
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 18,344 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    No point your child suffering due your (undoubted fine) principles.

    There could be a cost for the child though in that he will see by example that being a person of principle is not important, do as I say not as I do.....

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #82
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    silverharp wrote: »
    There could be a cost for the child though in that he will see by example that being a person of principle is not important, do as I say not as I do.....
    I'm sure through the superior education you will have secured for them they will be able to see the wisdom of not cutting off your nose to spite your face.


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    #83
    DinoBot
    Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭DinoBot


    parsi wrote: »
    It's not just Catholic schools. This is from Ashton (Secondary) in Cork.

    "15. In relation to religious denomination, and as advised by the Patron, the following priority is followed:

    a) Students who are Church of Ireland (or other Anglican/Episcopalian Churches) or members of Churches which are full ecumenical partners of the Church of Ireland (member churches of the Irish Council of Churches, Churches Together in Britain and Ireland or Conference of European Churches i.e. Belgian/French/Dutch Reformed Church, Congregational Federation, Lutheran Church[1], Methodist Church, Moravian Church, Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church, Old Catholic Church, Orthodox Churches, Presbyterian Church, Religious Society of Friends, the Salvation Army and the United Reformed Church),

    b) Students who are members of other established Protestant churches e.g. Baptist Church and Pentecostal Church,

    c) Children of interchurch marriages,

    d) Students who are members of other Christian churches,

    e) Students who are adherents of other faiths,

    f) Students who are of no religion. "

    The school is local to me and whilst I knew it had a Protestant "vibe" I didn't realise that it was so formally stated...



    Yep, quite standard. My eldest son was on level (f) in the school he is in at the moment. And the sad reality is, if the numbers were up he would not have got a place at all. Purely because of his parents decisions, not his.


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    #84
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    It has to be in their enrollment policy for it to be enforced and currently they are allowed to award points or places as they stat in their policy.


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    #85
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 18,344 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    I'm sure through the superior education you will have secured for them they will be able to see the wisdom of not cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    it depends, I would say that the ability of the child and the attitude of the parents to education are far more important to the outcome then the particular school they are sent to

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #86
    di11on
    Registered Users Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭di11on


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    I'm sure through the superior education you will have secured for them they will be able to see the wisdom of not cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    What a perverse society that forces parents into these kinds of decisions.


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    #87
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    di11on wrote: »
    What a perverse society that forces parents into these kinds of decisions.

    You can't please everybody all the time etc.


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    #88
    SerialComplaint
    Registered Users Posts: 2,644 ✭✭✭SerialComplaint


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    There are parents that do.

    Thing is this should be a societal issue that more people get behind rather then just those who are currently parents.

    The 'I'm alright Jack' attitude is what has FF back in government again and is responsible for a lot of the lack of accountability in this country.

    Don't assume that those parents who proceed with baptisms for school access purposes are happy with the situation. This is not an 'I'm all right, Jack' situation. This is a 'My child's schooling comes first' situation.


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    #89
    di11on
    Registered Users Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭di11on


    nesf wrote: »
    You can't please everybody all the time etc.

    You're right... why bother aspiring towards a fair society. Sure it's grand the way it is.


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    #90
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    di11on wrote: »
    You're right... why bother aspiring towards a fair society. Sure it's grand the way it is.
    Excellent, so we're all in agreement then :p


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    #91
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    di11on wrote: »
    You're right... why bother aspiring towards a fair society. Sure it's grand the way it is.

    Its more that I prioritise things differently to you. We should worry about which religious ethos is prevalent in schools after we've sorted out the shortages of places in most areas. Most people seem to look at things this way/don't have a problem with the Catholic Church running most schools.


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