Seriuosly piddled off

NoNameRanger

Yes it was me that coined the subject Animal Lovers on the Hunting forum. Some people seem to have taken offence to that, it was not my intention to cause offence.
But tell me how would people that love animals and nature like to referred. To say people that love animals are animal lovers is hardly an insult, feck it I'm one of the biggest animal lovers in the country!
The reason i used this as the subject title is because i am also a hunter. As i and everyother hunter knows, the vast majority of Animal lovers don't understand hunting. I could have used this as the subject title "They are saying we are barbaric and mutilating animals again!"
If i did offend anybody on the Animals and pet issues forum by referring to them as an animal lover i apologise.

The reasons i informed the lads in the hunting forum are:
I hoped you would debate it, as ye did, must be some sort of record, both sides are very passionate.

I hoped ye would educate eachother and reach common ground, i think it worked quite well, with a few hiccups!

I think it is good to talk these things out and not simply have one sided threads slating the activites of another forum.

Education is key to understanding eachother and a peaceful existance.

At the end of the day anybody that posted on this thread is an animal lover and is very passionate about animals and wildlife, its just that ye don't always understand eachother.

Jules

Im a veterinary nurse and fairly big into my animal rights etc, but i still see that culling is useful. I may not like it but it does help, as main only the old and unwell animals are shot, or so i am lead to believe. And i can see how this can benefit the population, and also the aera in which they live.

But i do think egars point in that she parked in front of the gate and there was no sign, then after the incident she went back to the car the sign was there. So obviously the persons involved saw the car and didn't take into consideration that there may be members of the public in the woods. Remember she was with her little kid.

Sparks

Jules wrote: »

But i do think egars point in that she parked in front of the gate and there was no sign, then after the incident she went back to the car the sign was there. So obviously the persons involved saw the car and didn't take into consideration that there may be members of the public in the woods. Remember she was with her little kid.

Remember also that there is no way for anyone to know whether those she saw were the hunters who fired the shot; where the shot was fired from; where the shot was aimed at; who the people she encountered were, whether they were the hunters in question or another group of hunters or a group of airsofters or whomever; or whether the people who put up the sign were in fact not off going through the area looking for people before firing a shot (again, remember we have no idea of where the shot she heard was fired - it might have been a mile away).

In fact, we don't know what kind of firearm was fired, nor what kind of firearms the people she saw were carrying, nor whether the two match up.

Pointing out that she had her child with her is largely irrelevant, given this amount of uncertainty. It would only be relevant if someone had seen her and her child and decided to discharge a firearm in her direction regardless. Which patently did not happen, as her description of the experience would have been markedly different.

fits

ztoical wrote: »

It is not an effective forum of pest control given the amount of man hours that go into taking care of the horses and dogs.

This is where a lot of the pleasure comes from. Keeping horses isnt a means to an end for most, but something that you derive pleasure from every day.

I even enjoy mucking out the stable, grooming, listening to the horse chewing away on some hay, getting the horse fit.

I'm not going to get into the rights and wrongs of it with you, just pointing out that taking care of horses isnt a chore for a lot of people.

Whispered

Sparks wrote: »

Remember also that there is no way for anyone to know whether those she saw were the hunters who fired the shot; where the shot was fired from; where the shot was aimed at; who the people she encountered were, whether they were the hunters in question or another group of hunters or a group of airsofters or whomever; or whether the people who put up the sign were in fact not off going through the area looking for people before firing a shot (again, remember we have no idea of where the shot she heard was fired - it might have been a mile away).

I think the point is that they saw her car outside and still put up the no entry sign. They did not know if she was a mother, a large family, another group of hunters or otherwise. They knew there was someone there and still put up the signs. Whether or not it was them who fired the shots is irrelevant, they were intending to do so. If they hadn't bumped into the OP the hunters would have had no idea where they were, how many people were there before them, but they were going to hunt regardless. If they were as responsible as most professional hunters then they would have waited for the OP to leave and the car to be gone. I dont think the OP's issue is with hunting in general, just with those particular ones (although granted it did turn into a bit of a "hunter bashing" however I have seen similar on the shooting forum and didn't hijack it !!) Described as "wannabe animal lovers" and questions such as "what the hell is worng with these people" are just as emotive as some of the words used by the other camp.The original issue I believe was how these hunters acted, as individuals, I dont think many people see this as a representation of ALL hunters and whatever way you look at it, they were wrong.

I have already expressed my opinions on culling and game hunting, but I would like to ask (genuinely) where the sport is in fox hunting? I understand hunting with dogs, I remember my dad at 6am many many mornings heading off with his 2 terriers and a lurcher and thats all, coming back with rabbits. For him it was the solitude and watching his dogs work together. Shooting, again I understand the need for pest control and I suppose I understand the sport, especially when the game is eaten. But fox hunting just seems very unfair, granted I dont understand it, so I wont attack it but I would appreciate if someone can explain the sport in it.

Thanks

Shelli

If indeed it was a shot fired miles away, I still think she was right to report it. She reported a group of hunters and a reg number, who put up a sign and went hunting when it was blatantly obvious that there was a member of the public in the vicinity, she said her vehicle was in clear sight, granted they may have missed the child seat and weren't to know she had a young dog with her, but this is irrelevant.

All these scenarios that it may not have been the hunters that the OP met who fired the shots at all are also irrelevant in my opinion, the fact remains that somebody came along and knowingly went hunting when there was a person walking in the area. The OP reports the series of events to the gardai and they decide what to deduce from the situation, surely they have enough knowledge of firearms??

If it wasn't that specific group of hunters, then it's up to gardai to find out who put up that sign and what exactly happened. Somebody was in the wrong and that’s for sure.

fits

helena.ryan wrote: »

I have already expressed my opinions on culling and game hunting, but I would like to ask (genuinely) where the sport is in fox hunting? I understand hunting with dogs, I remember my dad at 6am many many mornings heading off with his 2 terriers and a lurcher and thats all, coming back with rabbits. For him it was the solitude and watching his dogs work together. Shooting, again I understand the need for pest control and I suppose I understand the sport, especially when the game is eaten. But fox hunting just seems very unfair, granted I dont understand it, so I wont attack it but I would appreciate if someone can explain the sport in it.

Thanks

Theres a good thread on it here (locked now).. rather than starting another.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055199837

Sparks

helena.ryan wrote: »

I think the point is that they saw her car outside and still put up the no entry sign.

No, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.
Someone came in to hunt. That someone put up the sign. That someone might not have been the group the OP ran into, and it might not have been the someone who fired the shot she heard. And if it was the group she ran into, she does not know if they were in the middle of checking the area for people before starting to fire when someone else started firing and they proceeded to leave the area.
Given that that's an unknown, it's not right to accuse someone of a crime which carries a five year sentence. It is right to investigate it further, obviously.

They did not know if she was a mother, a large family, another group of hunters or otherwise. They knew there was someone there and still put up the signs.

Which makes perfect sense. There's no point in checking the woods and then putting up the sign, because while you're checking one area, someone might come in behind you. The right thing to do would be to put up the sign, go through the area, put up another sign at the other end of the trail, then go back and shoot. It is not obvious from the OP's post that that wasn't what was happening.

Whether or not it was them who fired the shots is irrelevant

Given the 7,000 euro fine and 5 years imprisonment involved, I'd submit that it is actually rather relevant, in fact critically important.

If they were as responsible as most professional hunters then they would have waited for the OP to leave and the car to be gone.

That would be spectacularly dangerous. Ramblers don't always arrive to wooded areas in cars, particularly not in Ireland, or Wicklow in particular.

The original issue I believe was how these hunters acted, as individuals, I dont think many people see this as a representation of ALL hunters and whatever way you look at it, they were wrong.

If the OP is correct about what happened and the danger level involved, then sanctions are decidedly called for. The problem is that there's no way to tell from her post if that's the case, and there's an enormous amount of uncertainty about the details - sufficient that it would be monsterously unjust to even accuse someone publicly without further investigation, let alone punish anyone. We do not know where the shot was fired from. We do not know where the shot was fired at. We do not know who fired the shot. We do not know who put up the sign or what they were doing when the shot was fired. We do not know who the people the OP met were, nor do we know what they were doing, nor if they were connected in any way with either the sign or the shot. We do not, in short, actually know anything beyond the fact that the OP had a very distressing incident which scared her badly, and which noone would have wished on anyone. More investigation is decidedly called for, but precedence does point out that in the vast majority of these cases, there was no actual danger involved, but a misperception of where shots were fired, how far away, how many, and in what direction - all things which the vast majority of Irish people have no experience whatsoever in judging.

Whispered

Thanks

Sparks

Shelli wrote: »

If indeed it was a shot fired miles away, I still think she was right to report it. She reported a group of hunters and a reg number, who put up a sign and went hunting when it was blatantly obvious that there was a member of the public in the vicinity

Except that again, we don't know if it was the people who put up the sign who fired the shot. And if the shot was miles away, there may have been no danger to anyone at all. As I've said repeatedly, further investigation is required before any accusations could be made.

All these scenarios that it may not have been the hunters that the OP met who fired the shots at all are also irrelevant in my opinion

Unfortunately, your opinion is erroneous because...

the fact remains that somebody came along and knowingly went hunting when there was a person walking in the area.

...this is not a fact.

The OP reports the series of events to the gardai and they decide what to deduce from the situation, surely they have enough knowledge of firearms?

No. Sad to say, but unless the Garda in question actually shoots him/herself, they won't have any training in firearms, at least not of the civilian variety.

Somebody was in the wrong and that’s for sure.

It's completely unsure, that's the problem. The 'if' in "if some was in the wrong then punishment is certainly justified" is a very big if from the details in the OP's post.

sidneyreilly

Shelli wrote: »

The OP reports the series of events to the gardai and they decide what to deduce from the situation, surely they have enough knowledge of firearms??
.

You would be amazed:(

Our man in Havana

Indeed, their lack of knowledge would astound you at times.

Vegeta

Ok just want to throw this out there and see what people think

I don't know the exact area in question but being coillte land I assume it was miles and miles and miles of trees and bog.

Is this not big enough for both activities to take place assuming all parties involved behave in a responsible fashion?

Lets face it there is no way for anybody to know for certain if the woods are completely empty. People could easily walk to the woods after all.

Whispered

Could there maybe be a way to give hikers etc better warning? I dont think people would have too much of a problem then. And of course some sort of rules over disposal of bodies? Not with 2 miles of a path, not totally out in the open etc etc?

Shelli

Sparks wrote: »

Except that again, we don't know if it was the people who put up the sign who fired the shot. And if the shot was miles away, there may have been no danger to anyone at all. As I've said repeatedly, further investigation is required before any accusations could be made.

Exactly, apologies for the round about way of trying to get my point across. I do believe that further investigation is needed, but all the OP can do is report the facts of the incident to the gardai and let them do the rest.

Our man in Havana

I would recommend that if anyone is aggrieved by the situation that they contact the Gardaí and allow them to investigate.

This thread has run its course and will be closed. EGAR, if you get a follow up, please post in a new thread.