Pylon Pressure

marco murphy

What are peoples thoughts on this.
I must admit Iam really at a loss, probably because it does'nt affect me.
Pylon Pressure, they seem to very well organised, Ive seen hundreds of cars, Cavan to Dublin with the stickers, and billboards around also.

They have issues with the health issues, while you see Eirgrid leaflets saying how safe they are.

So I did'nt bother reading further.

Thoughts?

Happy New Year

hellboy99

Below from www.pylonpressure.ie

Many studies have shown that living and working near high voltage power lines is a significant risk for a wide range of serious illnesses. We, as a community, refuse to have our health and the health of our children threatened by these pylons and we call for Eirgrid to do the right thing - put them underground.
Undergrounding is not only possible and increasingly used but also transmits energy more efficiently (lowering greenhouse grasses); reduces power loss, maintenance costs and storm damage, has little visual impact and is the safest method of carrying this power.

Is there any clinical or scientific studies that can actual 100% back up there claims ?

• Undergrounding electric distribution systems carries an enormous price tag, particularly when it comes to moving existing overhead distribution circuits underground. Who will end up paying for this, we the consumer/tax payer, god only knows what price electricity will go up to cover for this if all lines were to go underground.

• Underground lines also generate more EMF, what impacts if any will this have ?

• By what precent do they think underground lines will reduce power outages ? power lines still have to be above ground somewhere to go underground, besides we don't exactly have firece weather conditions here like they do say in the US ie, recently ice storms, hurricanes, tornado....

• How will they be protected/marked to let people know where the line is so it doesn't accidently get dug up ?

• Underground lines will take up more space than overhead.

• I can't see maintenance costs going down, least if something goes wrong with an overhead line it can be easily found and you don't have to dig up the ground.

The only benefit I can see is one of an aesthetic nature and in my opinion thats hardly a justified enough reason to go underground.

Access

I have to say... it does affect me, as one of the routes is a few hundred metres from my house....

But, it the same old politics... no matter what pressure is put on Eirgrid or the government, they will still plough ahead with the plans and build the lines overground.

I attended the meetings and have given my support to the underground plan... but like i say, mark my words, it the same old political bollox, they will go ahead with the route they want and build overground no matter what.

Meathlass

If the lines are put in underground factor in another couple of million Euros for archaeolgical works as well.

I would really like to see some peer reviewed scientific analysis of the risks from these pylons.

Access

Meathlass wrote: »

I would really like to see some peer reviewed scientific analysis of the risks from these pylons.

Well use google then!

Easily known you are nowhere near the planned routes!

Also, I cant wait to see the value of my house drop 30 grand when these are erected!

hellboy99

Access wrote: »

Also, I cant wait to see the value of my house drop 30 grand when these are erected!

That sounds more like it, affecting house values :rolleyes:, so if you sold your house and Eirgrid gave you 30K would you complain then. I'd say thats the big issue, not the health one.
Besides regardless of powerlines the value of your house is going to drop this year anyway.

Archeron

hellboy99 wrote: »

Besides regardless of powerlines the value of your house is going to drop this year anyway.

Thats kind of irrelevant. Its a bad enough cut to have your house price drop as it is, but to have it drop even further because of something like this really is just salt in the wounds.
Personally, I dont know the routes of these things, but I presume that they'll be near my house too as there are signs all around the town against them. To be honest I'm not that worried either as I feel negative health impacts can be found in pretty much anything, and I'm not planning to sell my house anytime soon, but if a project like this has a serious negative affect on the vale of someones investment and they themselves want to discuss this aspect, then that is something that should be discussed.

bushy...

hellboy99 wrote: »

Underground lines also generate more EMF, what impacts if any will this have ?

Easy , in a few years you'll get " Ah, it wouldn't so bad if it was near a few pylons but those underground...." when you go to sell

Access

hellboy99 wrote: »

That sounds more like it, affecting house values :rolleyes:, so if you sold your house and Eirgrid gave you 30K would you complain then. I'd say thats the big issue, not the health one.

What a stupid comment to make!

Its not just an issue of my home value dropping, if you read my original post properly you would note that i support the pylon pressure group and all its points and objections, (health and quality of life) and you might not have been you quick to make such a stupid comment.

And with your first comment on this post, its easily noted that you are no where near the planned routes and don't give a toss either way!

hellboy99 wrote: »

Besides regardless of powerlines the value of your house is going to drop this year anyway.

What has that got to do with anything? :rolleyes:

hellboy99

Access wrote: »

And with your first comment on this post, its easily noted that you are no where near the planned routes and don't give a toss either way!

I'm all for health and quality of life but there is no 100% proof to say that living near overhead power lines causes health issues, just like there is no 100% proof to say that underground ones don't affect you either.
If underground lines did go ahead how long would it be till people moan about them, whether it be about health issues, land, property values....?

As for me not giving a toss, I will if there is concrete evidence to back up the PP health claims.

Like I said previous I think it would be a fair assumption to make that a lot of the people involved and that support PP are ones that are worried about what effects it will have on the value of their property and what they could get out of it. If Eirgrid were to turn round to everyone that a line is near and offer a lump sum of money how many would take it and shut up, probably a vast amount of them.

Same happens with talks of a bypass coming near people, I have first hand experience of this.
A few years back a bypass was to go ahead near a town, a lot of farm land and people's houses were on route, they set up a group, protested about how it would effect their quaility of life, noise and accident issues too, property value was last on the list.
Cut a long story short, lump sums of money were offered to all of those affected, the majority of them took the money and forgot about all the other issues.

I was going to install a mini wind turbine onto the side of my house last year (good for the enviroment and all), didn't go ahead because people moaned about it would be ugly, noisy and no one would want to buy a house beside that !

Meathlass

Access wrote: »

Well use google then!

Easily known you are nowhere near the planned routes!

Also, I cant wait to see the value of my house drop 30 grand when these are erected!

Actually I live in Kilberry, ok it's not directly affected but it's only a few miles away. It's immaterial anyway if I live beside a proposed route or not. I've seen the pylon pressure campaign and they don't have any evidence it's going to cause health issues. I'm not saying this isn't the case but I'd need evidence. Interesting that you're mostly interested in the value of your house!

Access

Im all for healthy debate on this subject, but looks like there is no point as we are more then likely going to bounce the same points back and forward till we get sick and tired of debating it.

So im going to step back and let someone else debate the PP side of this.

Any takers?....

P.s. good luck with your plans for the wind turbine Hellboy... I was looking into that myself a while back until my neighbour got objections against his plans for one!

hellboy99

Access wrote: »

P.s. good luck with your plans for the wind turbine Hellboy... I was looking into that myself a while back until my neighbour got objections against his plans for one!

You know yourself, anything to save a few euro or better for the enviromet always gets stopped.

DMC

Access wrote: »

Im all for healthy debate on this subject, but looks like there is no point as we are more then likely going to bounce the same points back and forward till we get sick and tired of debating it.

So im going to step back and let someone else debate the PP side of this.

Any takers?....

TBH, Access, the demograph of the typical boards poster makes me not post on the topic here, even though I'm 300 metres away of the proposed Red route. I've been involved in one of the local committees.

My main concern is that this is 400kV, ultra high voltage, and its not been proven either way that it is safe. Better be safe than sorry.

My family have lived in the same house for over 80 years, house prices is of no concern to me or my family. It's home. You are talking about a very settled rural area for the most part. They've bypassed the main urban towns.

As for info and maps, the maps are all on the Eirgrid website, so those who don't know much about it can see how close they are to it.

I'm not going in and out of debate on this topic, there is the maps, as I said, it futile for the most part on boards.

Archeron

Thanks for the link with the maps DMC.
I wonder what the criteria is for what route they'll actually end up using?

DMC

The route of least opposition and resistance, I suppose.

That, and if they can get enough farmers in a row to allow them to put up pylons in their fields.

Access

DMC wrote: »

My family have lived in the same house for over 80 years, house prices is of no concern to me or my family. It's home. You are talking about a very settled rural area for the most part. They've bypassed the main urban towns.

I'm not going in and out of debate on this topic, there is the maps, as I said, it futile for the most part on boards.

Agree totally with you... but just to clear up, I am in the same situation as yourself. The house price comment i made earlier is just that... a comment, as the house we live in has been in my wifes family since the early 1900's and we don't plan to move in the future.

Its just a shame that if this goes ahead i could have a pylon a few hundred metres from my front door.

But, like i say... bouncing the topic pro and cons on here is no good. Its only debate.

Archeron

Access wrote: »

Its just a shame that if this goes ahead i could have a pylon a few hundred metres from my front door.

But, like i say... bouncing the topic pro and cons on here is no good. Its only debate.

I know its probably quite irrelevant, but any idea what sort of size these pylons will be? If its that close to your house, I would hope is not one those massive ones that look like space invaders that you see alongside motorways. The type I'm thinking of is the one that runs near the M9 as it branches off the M7 heading for Carlow, and they are really gigantic. They would be a huge impact.

DMC

Archeron wrote: »

I know its probably quite irrelevant, but any idea what sort of size these pylons will be? If its that close to your house, I would hope is not one those massive ones that look like space invaders that you see alongside motorways. The type I'm thinking of is the one that runs near the M9 as it branches off the M7 heading for Carlow, and they are really gigantic. They would be a huge impact.

22-37 metres high, according to Eirgrid. Thats huge.

Archeron

Wow, that does seem rather enormogantic alright.
And in a flat county like Meath, you'd probably see them from miles away. In fact, you could probably see them from...dare i say it...the hill of Tara.

Having a new road within sight of the hill might seem a lot less intrusive once it appears there is an army of giant metal aliens coming to get you.

Access

Archeron wrote: »

Wow, that does seem rather enormogantic alright.
And in a flat county like Meath, you'd probably see them from miles away. In fact, you could probably see them from...dare i say it...the hill of Tara.

Having a new road within sight of the hill might seem a lot less intrusive once it appears there is an army of giant metal aliens coming to get you.

:D:D

You get the can of worms... I will get the tin opener!!!

abakan

This is an interesting report with the health risks proven

http://www.emfs.info/sci_ccrg.asp

lostexpectation

what the difference between the pylons and motorway, I see there people standing beside an old abbey ie sing heritage to protest the pylons and then depending on dodgey hippy science to argue their point, and for some reason the councillors are against them even though it'll cost more.???

abakan

I think ull find the councillors are with the local people and they dont want them either. until someone slips them the brown enevelop and they will changed their mind!!

not to many people wanted the new M3 going by trim either but like the plyons will, they will go ahead

Archeron

abakan wrote: »

I think ull find the councillors are with the local people and they dont want them either. until someone slips them the brown enevelop and they will changed their mind!!

not to many people wanted the new M3 going by trim either but like the plyons will, they will go ahead

I didnt realize how close that motorway actually is to Trim until I seen the bridges being built just off the Trim Navan road. Funnily enough, I though I seen a new link road being built from the Trim-Dublin road to lead Trim people onto the M3, but its closer to Batterstown that Trim, so I'm confused by that. Also confused that some of the protestors said that Trim was not going to benefit from the M3 route, and an alternative should be considered.
So was it changed to be nearer Trim, or were the people protesting wrong?

As an aside, I dont understand why people dont want the motorway nearby, its a major piece of infrastructure thats going to benefit those who use it??
Sorry to go off topic BTW.

Jonnykitedude

Anybody catch prime time last night i just caught the very end of it:mad::mad:

DMC

Archived here...

Also, front page news on the Sunday Business Post....


Dempsey seeks underground route for cables

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=30191-qqqx=1.asp

03 February 2008 By Niamh Connolly, Political Reporter

Transport minister Noel Dempsey has intervened in a controversial pylon dispute by calling on EirGrid to re-route the high voltage lines underground along the new M3 motorway in Meath.

Dempsey, whose constituency is in Meath West, got advice from the National Roads Authority, on the option of the underground route - a move that EirGrid claims could cost up to €1.8 billion, ten times the current cost of the project.

Local opposition is growing to the overhead pylon routes planned by EirGrid, the state company charged with upgrading the country’s grid to increase security of electricity supply.

In an unusual move, Dempsey also asked Green Party energy minister Eamon Ryan to consider funding an independent assessment of the cost of putting the power lines underground.

The energy minister has agreed to consider this. The new twist to the controversy over power lines came after Dempsey sought the advice of National Roads Authority (NRA) chief executive Fred Barry on the feasibility of re-routing the cables underground on the path of theM3 motorway, close to the Hill of Tara.

Communities and local politicians in Meath and Cavan are resisting the two 400 kV power lines, that will run for 58 kilometres from Woodland, Co Meath, to Kingscourt in Cavan, and 80 kilometres from Cavan to Tyrone.

If the power lines were to go underground, EirGrid estimates the project would be six to ten times more costly than the current €180 million cost. It could also set a precedent for the planned nationwide grid upgrade, driving costs up to a potential €6 billion from €650 million.

In a letter last week, Barry told Dempsey that ‘‘should EirGrid decide to formally propose laying their cables along the M3, we will endeavour to facilitate their requirements, subject - as you suggest - to suitable indemnities regarding damage, disruption, costs etc.”

While not ruling out the proposal, Barry said that if placing the cables on a public road network was required, ‘‘it may be preferable to utilise the existing N3 route’’. He cautioned that since the M3 is subject to a 35-year concession contract, any agreement with EirGrid would require agreement with the public-private partnership company involved and would be ‘‘unlikely to be a straightforward manner.”

‘‘The costs of the various indemnities that would be required are likely to be significant and may pose difficulties for EirGrid, in the event that they wished to advance this proposal,” Barry said.

Ina statement to The Sunday Business Post this weekend, Dempsey said: ‘‘As a result of representations made to me by constituents on this issue, I had a number of meetings with EirGrid and requested them to fully examine the option of putting the power lines underground.

‘‘EirGrid have indicated to me that all options will now be considered in the preparation of their formal planning application.” EirGrid will outline its case at an Oireachtas Committee on energy on Wednesday.

Protests pile pressure on Ryan
http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS+FEATURES-qqqm=nav-qqqid=30151-qqqx=1.asp
03 February 2008

Energy minister Eamon Ryan has found himself caught up in a bitter row, as pressure grows to put pylons underground, writes Niamh Connolly, Political Reporter.

A ‘blitz’ of ten underage teams organised by Meath County GAA will gather today at an all-weather pitch in Dunganny to protest against national grid operator, EirGrid’s high power electric lines in the region.

A growing campaign against the power lines and pylons running from the Republic to the North was boosted last week when the Meath County Board of the GAA joined a chorus of opinion pitted against the state company.

At least 19 clubs in county Meath have playing facilities directly under one of the proposed pylon routes, according to the campaign group North East Pylon Pressure.




Few politicians would risk crossing the all-powerful GAA. But councillors across all parties on Meath County Council were pushing to have the power lines put underground, even before the GAA joined the protest.

The dispute has arisen because EirGrid must carry out a critical grid reinforcement from the Republic to the North to shore up the country’s transmission infrastructure for the all-island trading market, and to allow more renewable energy onto the system.

Eamon Ryan, green energy minister, now finds himself in a tricky position, caught up in an increasingly bitter row between EirGrid and local communities who are concerned about the health and environmental effects of electromagnetic fields.

There are just two high power lines from Moneypoint in the west to the North East which were installed back in 1985 but this is all set to change.

The Green’s vision of more renewable energy will mean far more high power lines spanning the west coast - where the bulk of wind farms will be located - to the east coast to link up with a planned interconnector between Ireland and Britain.

Ryan is pushing for an ambitious 42 per cent of the country’s electricity to come from wind energy in the next 12 years and for this a national upgrade is required. Plans for the North East could prove a landmark test case that will set the terms of debate for how EirGrid goes about its work.

The North East upgrade involves a 400 kV powerline running overhead for 58 kilometres from Woodland, Co Meath to Kingscourt in Cavan. A second 400 kV line which is 80 kilometres in length will run from Cavan to Tyrone.

The North East Pylon Pressure group points to the ‘Draper report’ in Britain which found electromagnetic fields from high power lines was associated with cancer and childhood leukaemia.

Radiation experts, such as Professor Denis Henshaw of Bristol University, have linked these fields to birth defects and miscarriages and believe the current World Health Organisation (WHO) guidelines, used as a standard by grid companies throughout Europe, should be changed.

But the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), an agency of the WHO, subsequently decided that Henshaw’s evidence was ‘‘inadequate’’.

EirGrid’s information meetings in Meath and Cavan have been tense and at times acrimonious as farmers, teachers and householders insist that the three route options advanced by EirGrid should be moved from populated areas - and if possible, go underground.

But the cost of going underground in the North East would put the cost up by between six and 10 times the current €180 million price tag, according to EirGrid, which insists that the overhead lines are standard in 97 per cent of cases all over Europe.

If forced to go underground, the national grid reinforcement would jump from €650 million to €6 billion for the state energy companies, EirGrid and ESB - with taxpayers and electricity consumers to pick up the bill.

‘‘I’m not going to impose a €6 billion cost on the Irish taxpayer to end up with a less reliable power system,” Dermot Byrne, EirGrid chief executive told The Sunday Business Post this weekend.

He said his remit was to deliver a project that is ‘‘safe, reliable and affordable”. Furthermore, industry strongly favours overhead cables that can be fixed for faults in a matter of hours, compared to days for underground cables.

‘‘We know a potential €650 million is coming down the tracks in terms of transmission development. Even if it were technically feasible to develop all of that underground, the incremental cost would be in the order of €6 billion and even then we have a far less reliable system,” said Byrne.

‘‘It is really important that what we do in this particular project does not set a precedence for the future development of the grid that would put us totally offside in relation to competitiveness.”

Byrne said hundreds of studies on high power lines were examined by WHO which found no conclusive causative link with childhood leukaemia and cancer. However, WHO advised regulatory bodies to take a precautionary approach which EirGrid is adopting in the North East.

‘‘WHO said the overwhelming body of evidence found no risk to human health and no requirement to change the guidelines. W e are taking a precautionary approach and are not seeking to go closer than 50metres from any dwelling, in most cases we will be in excess of that,” said Byrne.

He said there was no evidence of any AC transmission line of a similar length being put underground anywhere. In one case in Britain, an AC line went underground in a visually sensitive area for almost six kilometres. “We’re proposing 100 per cent overhead in this case.”

Locally, however, feelings are running high. Up to 2,500 people gathered at Bective Abbey, near Navan, last month in a protest at the spectre of 140 foot high pylons being strung close to the site of the Cistercian Abbey. The site was built in 1150 and used as the location for the Mel Gibson film Braveheart.

The campaign has been running for months in the regional papers of the North East. But this week it will go national after the minister referred the matter to the Oireachtas energy committee, chaired by Fianna Fail TD John Cregan.

Ryan said: ‘‘While this is an operational matter for EirGrid itself, we all need accurate information on the type and effects of such development in the wider public domain.”

EirGrid will set out its case on Wednesday, while internationally renowned experts will also be invited to present their findings at a later date. The North East Pylon Pressure group is likely to make its presentation in two weeks’ time.

Simon Coveney, Fine Gael energy spokesman and his Labour counterpart Liz McManus want an ‘independent’ review on the costs of going underground. Fine Gael’s Cavan senator Liam O’Reilly, Meath deputy Shane McEntee and Monaghan TD Seymour Crawford also joined in this call.

According to Coveney, Ryan, as minister with responsibility for EirGrid, can influence the outcome of this dispute and the company’s future policy.

Ryan has so far fended off the call for an independent review of the costs, noting that EirGrid has the relevant expertise in this area.

The state company had a duty to act in the wider public interest as well as protect taxpayers money and EirGrid should not be ‘‘undermined’’, he said.

O’Reilly warned there was a ‘‘potential rush of litigation’’ from potential health risks that should be factored into the overall costs of not going underground.” Where the jury was out on the health issue, it is best to opt for the precautionary principle - when I was young it was considered perfectly acceptable to smoke cigarettes,” O’Reilly told last weeks’ Oireachtas committee on energy.

The North East Pylon Pressure campaign scored an early victory last week in the High Court which ordered EirGrid to give a local Meath resident reports and documents it used in selecting three route options for the power lines. The case is up for mention in the High Court on February 13.

Tom Madden, a local resident of Kilmessan used an EU regulation, the European Community Access to Information on the Environment Regulation 2007, to support his case.

‘‘It’s been seen as a shot across the bough of EirGrid as it’s the first time the company has had to stop and consider how it is going about things,” said Liam Cahill, spokesman for the North East Pylon Pressure group.

Cahill said that Ireland is one of the few countries that has not complied with an EU regulation that would greatly restrict where such power lines are allowed.

However Byrne said he will be stressing the country’s need for cost-efficient power lines to boost Ireland’s competitiveness.

The upgrade will increase the country’s security of supply which is so important for industry, and the North East as a location for high tech companies.

If Monaghan TDs’ opinions of EirGrid’s information campaign reflects the prevailing wind in Meath, a solution to this row is not expected in the short-term. Crawford said Eirgrid ‘‘has failed dismally’’ in how it went about informing the public of the upgrade.

Despite Fine Gael’s calls for Ryan to intervene, EirGrid’s view is that a decision on planning will be a matter for An Bord Pleanala, under the Strategic Infrastructure Act.

‘‘There is a process and we are allowing this to take its course and see the outcome - then we will know what we have to do.I f we have approval then we go ahead, if conditions are attached then we have to assess those conditions,” said Byrne.

T-max

It looks like, despite the strong movement of people campaigning for the cables to be buried underground, that they will in fact be erected overhead. In particular, I cite the current economic situation and ever increasing fuel costs for electricity generation that will prove deciding factors in the decision.

Archeron

T-max wrote: »

It looks like, despite the strong movement of people campaigning for the cables to be buried underground, that they will in fact be erected overhead. In particular, I cite the current economic situation and ever increasing fuel costs for electricity generation that will prove deciding factors in the decision.

To be honest, I would never have expected otherwise. Fair play to those who petitioned for their point of view to be heard, but it never seemed like something that would change.
Look at the outrage across the world against the M3 in Tara/Skyrne valley, and thats still forging ahead.

For the record, I don't feel that pylons are aesthetically displeasing. The health and technical stuff, I haven't got a clue, but pylons can add to an area in their own "space invaders are here" kind of way.
Perhaps we can paint them all green and gold and use them in the next GAA ad campaign

irish_bob

while im open to persuasion on whether the pylons pose a threat to peoples health , i think the whole opposition campaign against them is typical of the irish mindset towards certain infrastructure or change in general
its the not in my back yard philosophy , there are more mobile phones per head in this country than almost anywhere else in the world yet try and errect a mast and you have almost mass hysteria in small communities , the same goes for incinerators or heaven forbid mention of nuclear power
theese campaigns resemble an angry mob in how they are run , you dare not even ask the question , are the pylons really that big a deal or you get a george bush like ( if your not with us , your against us ) reaction and become almost ostracised , eventually the whole thing gets so out of control , you forget in the end what it is exactly us the people are opposed to

ive come to the conclusion quite recently that we the irish are indeed a very very easy people to frighten

marco murphy

irish_bob wrote: »

while im open to persuasion on whether the pylons pose a threat to peoples health , i think the whole opposition campaign against them is typical of the irish mindset towards certain infrastructure or change in general
its the not in my back yard philosophy , there are more mobile phones per head in this country than almost anywhere else in the world yet try and errect a mast and you have almost mass hysteria in small communities , the same goes for incinerators or heaven forbid mention of nuclear power
theese campaigns resemble an angry mob in how they are run , you dare not even ask the question , are the pylons really that big a deal or you get a george bush like ( if your not with us , your against us ) reaction and become almost ostracised , eventually the whole thing gets so out of control , you forget in the end what it is exactly us the people are opposed to

ive come to the conclusion quite recently that we the irish are indeed a very very easy people to frighten

Hit the nail on the head. Wonder is it unique to Ireland.