Irish gov determined to bulldoze Top Ten ancient discovery

TetsuoHashimoto

This one is for you Archeology people

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0801/S00001.htm

The Lismullin national monument, discovered in March 2007 in the pathway of the M3 motorway at Tara, has been awarded a place in the Top Ten Most Important Archaeological Discoveries of 2007, in the Jan/Feb issue of Archaeology magazine, a publication of the Archaeological Institute of America.

TaraWatch will celebrate this, as well as the inclusion of Tara in the 2008 List of 100 Most Endangered Sites by the World Monuments Fund, by engaging in a sponsored walk along the pathway of the disused Navan to Dublin railway line on New Years Day, to highlight the alternatives that are still available.

Other important sites in the Top Ten Discoveries 2007 are the Solar Observatory at Chankillo, Peru; Urbanization at Tell Brak, Syria; Homo habilis & Homo erectus remains in Kenya and new discoveries at Greater Angkor, Cambodia.

The Lismullin entry, written by Jarrett A. Lobell states:

"Early last year, archaeologists working on the route of a controversial highway near the village of Lismullin, Ireland, stumbled across a vast Iron Age ceremonial enclosure, or henge, surrounded by two concentric walls. The 2,000-year-old site is just over a mile from the Hill of Tara, traditional seat of the ancient Irish kings and site of St. Patrick's conversion of the Irish to Christianity in the fifth century A.D. The discovery of the massive henge, measuring more than 260 feet in diameter, confirms the long-held belief that the area around the hill contains a rich complex of monuments.

"The extraordinary amount of archaeological remains on the Hill of Tara--burial mounds, religious enclosures, stone structures, and rock art dating from the third millennium b.c. to the twelfth century A.D.--makes it Ireland's most spiritually and archaeologically significant site. Construction of the new M3 highway, meant to ease traffic congestion around Dublin, threatens not only the Hill of Tara's timeless quality, but also newly discovered archaeological sites in the surrounding valley.

"Although archaeologists and concerned Irish politicians are rallying support worldwide for the protection of the Hill of Tara, the iconic site remains in great peril. At press time, the European Commission had initiated legal action against the Irish government over the M3, charging Ireland with failing to protect its own heritage.

Vincent Salafia of TaraWatch said:

"2007 has been a very successful year for the Tara campaign, with Tara being recognised as being one of the world's 100 most endangered sites, and now Lismullin making it into the top ten most important discoveries in 2007.

"Numerous important Irish celebrities have also voiced their opposition to the M3, including Bono, Gabriel Byrne, Jonathan Rhys Myers, Paddy Moloney, Seamus Heaney and Louis le Brocquy."

"We have also been vindicated by the litigation initiated by the European Commission, which argues that Dick Roche should have required a new Environmental Impact Assessment before making the decision to demolish the Lismullin national monument.

"Sadly, Minister Gormley has refused to comply with the demands of the European Commission, and has not conducted a new Environmental Impact Assessment, before allowing the national monument to be handed over to the construction company.

"There is still a small window of time for the Minister to take action, before the works become irreversible. Hopefully, the designation of Lismullin in this Top Ten will trigger a re-examination of the issue by the Minister.

Dub13

Not many 'Archeology people' here in After Hours.

galwayrush

Dub13 wrote: »

Not many 'Archeology people' here in After Hours.

Well, not ones who will give serious answers anyways.:D

Tipsy Mac

Most people want the road built, less people don't, the road gets built, end of.

Dudess

Dub13 wrote: »

Not many 'Archeology people' here in After Hours.

Plenty of people dig holes for themselves here though.

leninbenjamin

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Most people want the road built, less people don't, the road gets built, end of.

funnily enough I've yet to meet someone who actually wants that road to go ahead. it's very much a regional viewpoint.

Wertz

Bwaahaha....so Gormley will be the one who gets the blame for all this and will go down as the villain? You have to hand it to FF; they're brilliant.

The Lismullin Tribunal 2031

Counsel: So Mr Gormley, can you explain to us exactly why you decided to build a road through the very throne of the high kings of tara back in early 2008?

Gormley: Um ahh....um.....but it wasn't me it was Seamus Brennan...oh oh and Cullen, he was the one who...

Counsel; Oh come come mr Gormley, do you really expect us to believe that those two gombeens really managed to pull the wool over the nation's eyes? I put it to you that it was you and only you who held the final decision on this tragic course of events.

Tribunal Judge: Well it pains me to be the first Irish judge in almost 80 years to be handing down a sentence such as this, but I'm afraid I'm left with little choice...

*gallows are rolled out*

Guy:Incognito

leninbenjamin wrote: »

funnily enough I've yet to meet someone who actually wants that road to go ahead..

I do.

Dyr

theres always been irish people who were happy to sell their heiritage down the swanny for their own gain.

Dyr

Stekelly wrote: »

I do.

you also feel some team from liverpool are sig worthy. So what side of the mersey did you grow up on la' our kid?

Guy:Incognito

Or theres people who dotn care about the same things others do.

Manic Moran

Well, it's the ancient Celts' fault for not bothering to take advance planning for the country's infrastructure needs into account, isn't it? The should have built Tara somewhere else, but no, they didn't...

I think there's a difference between an achaeological site, and an archeological item. If the primary value of the site comes from the artefacts found there, I don't think there should be a permanent ban on modern construction as the artefacts can be catalogued, collected, moved, and still reveal whatever secrets they hold. If the value of the site is integral to its location and cannot be moved, such as an old fort or henge, then that's a slightly different issue, but that doesn't mean to say that all construction in the region should grind to a halt. Stonehenge and woodhenge, for example, are both living in relative comfort with main roads very close.

NTM

Sundy

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Most people want the road built, less people don't, the road gets built, end of.

Its called a Democracy

Guy:Incognito

Bambi wrote: »

you also feel some team from liverpool are sig worthy. So what side of the mersey did you grow up on la' our kid?

The side where people are free doas they please and partake/support in whatever sport they like (irrespective of how evilor British it may be)

Dyr

Stekelly wrote: »

The side where people are free doas they please and partake/support in whatever sport they like (irrespective of how evilor British it may be)

i'll take that as a "nowhere near it but i grew up watching jamie rednapp on de telly"

people are free to do what they like. Like the few scousers i know who piss themselves laughing at dubs trying to pass themselves off as kopites

Mr. CooL ICE

"Numerous important Irish celebrities have also voiced their opposition to the M3, including Bono, Gabriel Byrne, Jonathan Rhys Myers, Paddy Moloney, Seamus Heaney and Louis le Brocquy."

These boyos will be doing wheelies in the bandwagon until they get a bit of oul' publicity.


Either they bulldoze the whole thing and get a load of heat from it, or they make a massive skew around it and get a load of heat for building a crap motorway. They will never win.

Guy:Incognito

Bambi wrote: »

i'll take that as a "nowhere near it but i grew up watching jamie rednapp on de telly"

Nope before that and before there was live matches all the time.

Dyr

Ah great so ye'd know what a plazzy is then

Sam Vimes

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Most people want the road built, less people don't, the road gets built, end of.

nobody doesn't want the road built ffs, they want it moved a few hundred metres so it doesn't go over one of the top ten ancient discoveries of 2007. i'm sick of people claiming that the protesters don't want the road built when it says right there in the article that they're marching down one of the alternative routes they're suggesting

daveharnett

Commander Vimes wrote: »

i'm sick of people claiming that the protesters don't want the road built when it says right there in the article that they're marching down one of the alternative routes they're suggesting

The problem as i see it is that the planning process is so useless that any deviation from the original plan will result in (another) ridiculous delay.

The protesters need to point out that it would have been much quicker and cheaper to make the change than go through the court cases, appeals and pay the inevitable EU fines.

Gotta hand it to FF on this one. They are brilliant at making scapegoats of their partners. Do i remember correctly that the permission for this was signed the day before Gormley took office?

phasers

I don't see whats wrong with moving the road a bit

it gets built and Tara is saved
everybody wins, everybody shuts the fcuk up

phasers

phasers wrote: »

I don't see whats wrong with moving the road a bit

€.

Instant Karma

Bambi wrote: »

theres always been irish people who were happy to sell their heiritage down the swanny for their own gain.

How sadly true.

Marksie

Sundy wrote: »

Its called a Democracy

This wwould be the same FF democracy which had a referendum a few years back but the results went against them. So they had another til they got the right democratic answer? i.e the one they wanted?

Setun

If they do build the road, get fined etc, where does the money to pay the fines come from?

Slow Motion

daveharnett wrote: »

Gotta hand it to FF on this one. They are brilliant at making scapegoats of their partners. Do i remember correctly that the permission for this was signed the day before Gormley took office?

Correct, about one of the most cynical moves it's ever been my displeasure to witness in Irish politics, among many, many, many............others!

Degsy

How many people know what site thier house previously occupied?If the hippies were suddenly told,"right,get out of your houses,we reckon there's stoneage stuff underneath" would they be happy to hand the keys over?

Sleepy

Daddio wrote: »

If they do build the road, get fined etc, where does the money to pay the fines come from?

An exhorbitant toll á la the M50 perhaps?

cornbb

Degsy wrote: »

How many people know what site thier house previously occupied?If the hippies were suddenly told,"right,get out of your houses,we reckon there's stoneage stuff underneath" would they be happy to hand the keys over?

Its not like they're digging up a road thats already been built. Hardly a fair analogy.

Yes, we need better roads. We also need to protect what little bits of historical artifacts are left of our past. The government is such a collection of half-baked f*ckups they can't get either requirement right, let alone getting both done at the same time. Nobody is going to look back on the M3 in awe in 10, 100 or 10,000 years time.

L1011

leninbenjamin wrote: »

funnily enough I've yet to meet someone who actually wants that road to go ahead. it's very much a regional viewpoint.

I live very close to the N3, I travel on it very frequently. I want the motorway built.

Oddly enough I've found its a regional viewpoint too - only those in regions not affected by the road (such as Galway, oddly enough) are wringing their hands over it.

WindSock

Can I, as in ordinary layperson me, go and visit this site before it is destroyed?

L1011

cornbb wrote: »

Nobody is going to look back on the M3 in awe in 10, 100 or 10,000 years time.

I dispute that - we look back on roman roads in awe...

cornbb

MYOB wrote: »

I dispute that - we look back on roman roads in awe...

Yes, we also look back on ancient mud huts with awe. That doesn't mean every 3-bedroom semi detached house in Ireland will become an archaeological artifact. The roman roads were the engineering and scientific marvels of their time, I don't think the M3 will hold any such historical significance for some reason.

Dub13

This is very heavy stuff for after hours.....have we all grown up over the Xmas...?

L1011

cornbb wrote: »

Yes, we also look back on ancient mud huts with awe. That doesn't mean every 3-bedroom semi detached house in Ireland will become an archaeological artifact. The roman roads were the engineering and scientific marvels of their time, I don't think the M3 will hold any such historical significance for some reason.

Thats because there are very few of the mud huts surviving - don't be doubting there were just as many of them in 1820 as there are 3-bed semi-D's now. The surviving bits of the motorway network will either still be in use (obviously replaced and likely widened many times) in 2000 years, or looked at in awe - just as the roman road network in the UK is.

cornbb

MYOB wrote: »

Thats because there are very few of the mud huts surviving - don't be doubting there were just as many of them in 1820 as there are 3-bed semi-D's now. The surviving bits of the motorway network will either still be in use (obviously replaced and likely widened many times) in 2000 years, or looked at in awe - just as the roman road network in the UK is.

There are plenty of arguments in favour of building the M3 but if you are arguing that we should build it because it *might* one day become a significant archaeological artifact, well, thats not a very good reason to build a road IMO.

Anyway, people are arguing to have the route moved a little, not abandon building it altogether.

Marksie

MYOB wrote: »

Thats because there are very few of the mud huts surviving - don't be doubting there were just as many of them in 1820 as there are 3-bed semi-D's now. The surviving bits of the motorway network will either still be in use (obviously replaced and likely widened many times) in 2000 years, or looked at in awe - just as the roman road network in the UK is.

Did you actually read the initial post, the valley etc are not just a bit of old road or collection of houses but:

TetsuoHashimoto wrote: »

--makes it Ireland's most spiritually and archaeologically significant site.

Dub13 wrote: »

Not many 'Archeology people' here in After Hours.

Not the kind of digout FF prefer.

They have learned nothing from the wood quay fiasco. Heritage is only useful when something is to be gained from it and not when it conflicts with money, or it seems, saving a few minutes travelling time

ejmaztec

You won't get any sympathy from those there archaeologists. They like rooting around, picking up a couple of bits and pieces, sticking 'em into a glass case - so that some local museum can charge you for looking at the auld stones for a fee. I think that their real passion is Tarmac and pictures of JCBs on their bedroom walls.

Wertz

The road will be built if for no other reason than that the land has been acquired, plans drawn up, contracts written and money changed hands.
As mentioned, no-one is saying, or has ever said, that road shouldn't be built, just the sheer idiocy of dynamiting our way through a place of KNOWN historical significance (this isn't sh*t that was uncovered mid bulldoze; it's been known about for centuries) when an alternate route could have just as easily been planned for and had land bought for back when it was still possible and the least expensive...

But no, in typical FF fashion let's just forge ahead and f*ck common sense (port tunnel and the supertruck anyone?), the will of the people or anything much else that may get in the way of "progress".
If FF supporters want to get butt hurt at the mention of their beloved gombeens then so be it....but please don't for a moment try and pin the blame for this lunacy on anyone else...

L1011

Marksie wrote: »

Did you actually read the initial post, the valley etc are not just a bit of old road or collection of houses but:

Yes, and it says its our most significant site discovered in the last year. What else was discovered in the last year? Can't name anything... I'd suggest that one of our actual world heritage sites is out most significant site, actually.

We've two choices - destroy it by digging it up or cover it with a road meaning that a future generation can destroy it by digging it up. Can't see how column A is any worse than column B. Can guarantee that if the road was re-routed there'd be more "significant" finds.

And the whole most laughable thing about this is how theres many people brainwashed in to assuming the motorway is going through the *hill of* Tara as opposed to the Tara-Skryne Valley...

Senna

What lenght of road would have to be changed from the original plans? and how far would it have to be moved?
How big is this ancient site? would the road being 100 yards to the left miss it?

leninbenjamin

MYOB wrote: »

And the whole most laughable thing about this is how theres many people brainwashed in to assuming the motorway is going through the *hill of* Tara as opposed to the Tara-Skryne Valley...

in fairness that's as much due to the lazy and sensationalist journalism we have in abundance nowadays than anything else.

ednwireland

the tara road goes further away from the hill of tara than the current road, there is an interchange which should be redesigned because it encroaches on the lower slopes of a field on the otherside of a road from the hill of of tara. lismullen is a bunch of empty holes in the ground (i would guess its bulldozed by now ) there is nothing there to preserve once you've ripped of the topsoil. the reason i see the road been built there is they only had to demolish 3 houses on this route the next viable route would have had to demolish 74 i firmly beleive that was the deciding factor.

starn

Now lets get this straight from the off. Im not exactly FF biggest fan. But I would love to know how many people protesting about the Lismullen site have actually seen it. I took a spin out last sept TBH was pretty shocked. I was expecting a passage tomb or at least some type of cairn or standing stone. But no in actual fact, its literally a big hole in the ground. There is nothing remotly signicant about the site as far as I can see. As for being one of the most impotant sites of 2007. What a load of ****. Can anybody name another one. Maybe the big pothole outside my house ??

Just a loads of old crusties and do gooders getting there knickers in a twist over nothing.
There time would be a lot better spent protesting about our corrupt poloticians and inadiquate health service [ not everyone else has your protective coating of penicillan]
Get your priorties straight, and have a wash I can smell you from here.

unclebill98

I am one of those who want this M3 built. I am one of those who have sat in the traffic in Dunsaughlin, Navan, Kells and Blanch by-pass trying to get home. I've sat in traffic in Ratoath to Finglas which has now become a hell hole of a place to get through. I've sat in my car for over hour trying to get through 1/2 mile of road. So for me the bloody thing should just be built. I've seen the so called national importance site. Its nothing that you can compare to the Tara hill itself. You have people going onto Matt Cooper(which you listen to while sitting in 2-3hrs traffic going home) saying its as important as the Spinx and the Pyramids and stone Henge, Boll ox to that. Maybe I actually might enjoy the hill of tara if i could see it from the M3, maybe more people would visit it then....

I could not afford to buy in Dublin, hence to move to Cavan. I started driving up through Ratoath a few years ago. I left at 7am, was in Dublin city centre and at my desk for 9. After 10 months I had to shift my start time to 8am and leave my house a 5.30am just to make it on time.... Most days being late. I see those poor folks who just bought there really expensive Ratoath house, stopped at the exit of the housing estate wondering....where did all this traffic come from....its 7/8am...no wonder they show these house at the weekend!! They can not even get into the traffic cause that road is as clogged as the bloody N3.

So, please built the god darn M3.... I don't mind paying the Tolls, just give me the option. Every other road from Dublin is a lovely safe road. People are gettign forced onto sub standard roads and are driving at speed just to make up the time. Ask anyone who lives on the roads around the N3. Its not a safe place to walk, for kids to play. There all asking for the speed limit to be reduced and for it to be enforced.

My pet hate, those idiots standing at Lismullen with the 'Down with this sort of thing' posters.... Those who want the M3 might be out protesting for it, if they managed to get home at a decent hour and had not just spent 6 hrs a day travelling to/from work.

Build over the past to move into the future.....yes please.

rant over.

Dyr

you're the one who had to own a house even if it was up in the arsehole of nowhere. The heritage we're meant to hold in trust for future generations shouldnt have to be steamrollered because you're werent bright enough to figure out that living in a different province to the one you work in would involve long commutes.

lostexpectation

MYOB wrote: »

I live very close to the N3, I travel on it very frequently. I want the motorway built.

so do many people, but why do you want it built through Tara?

lostexpectation

just becuase it uses the land with added shaped earth doens't make it less important then any other monument that was the tech at the time, and very clever they were at it too.

lostexpectation

unclebill98 wrote: »

I am one of those who want this M3 built. I am one of those who have sat in the traffic in Dunsaughlin, Navan, Kells and Blanch by-pass trying to get home. I've sat in traffic in Ratoath to Finglas which has now become a hell hole of a place to get through. I've sat in my car for over hour trying to get through 1/2 mile of road. So for me the bloody thing should just be built. I've seen the so called national importance site. Its nothing that you can compare to the Tara hill itself. You have people going onto Matt Cooper(which you listen to while sitting in 2-3hrs traffic going home) saying its as important as the Spinx and the Pyramids and stone Henge, Boll ox to that. Maybe I actually might enjoy the hill of tara if i could see it from the M3, maybe more people would visit it then....

I could not afford to buy in Dublin, hence to move to Cavan. I started driving up through Ratoath a few years ago. I left at 7am, was in Dublin city centre and at my desk for 9. After 10 months I had to shift my start time to 8am and leave my house a 5.30am just to make it on time.... Most days being late. I see those poor folks who just bought there really expensive Ratoath house, stopped at the exit of the housing estate wondering....where did all this traffic come from....its 7/8am...no wonder they show these house at the weekend!! They can not even get into the traffic cause that road is as clogged as the bloody N3.

So, please built the god darn M3.... I don't mind paying the Tolls, just give me the option. Every other road from Dublin is a lovely safe road. People are gettign forced onto sub standard roads and are driving at speed just to make up the time. Ask anyone who lives on the roads around the N3. Its not a safe place to walk, for kids to play. There all asking for the speed limit to be reduced and for it to be enforced.

My pet hate, those idiots standing at Lismullen with the 'Down with this sort of thing' posters.... Those who want the M3 might be out protesting for it, if they managed to get home at a decent hour and had not just spent 6 hrs a day travelling to/from work.

Build over the past to move into the future.....yes please.

rant over.

you bought a house in cavan for job in dublin, ahahhahahahaha

RENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lostexpectation

ednwireland wrote: »

the tara road goes further away from the hill of tara than the current road, there is an interchange which should be redesigned because it encroaches on the lower slopes of a field on the otherside of a road from the hill of of tara. lismullen is a bunch of empty holes in the ground (i would guess its bulldozed by now ) there is nothing there to preserve once you've ripped of the topsoil. the reason i see the road been built there is they only had to demolish 3 houses on this route the next viable route would have had to demolish 74 i firmly beleive that was the deciding factor.

it is further away at one point and not at another, so your wrong, it also a motorway and large exchange.

there shouldn't have ripped up the topsoil should they not correct archaeological process there at all.

never been able to find map that shows the number of houses involved link?

dfx-

unclebill98 wrote: »

Build over the past to move into the future.....yes please.

Simple really.

Thousands of years and hundreds of generations worldwide have considered their future more important than their past, but not Ireland of 2008. Oh no.

Somehow gazing at our history is more important than moulding our future.:mad: