Greens plan to introduce "Carbon Levy" on Motorists

cantdecide

Having a FF sig is fine in itself but FFS, bringing it into an IRISH MOTORING forum is a little like wearing a swastika to synagogue.

As long as the green pretence allows the government to increase revenues on the continually overburdened and generally ignorant Irish motorist (I'd do it too, in their position- we just take it no matter how bad it gets), there will always be an anti-FF undertone here- it's inevitable. If you are that surprised- go to the flower-arranging forum or the nose-picking forum becasue as keen and informed motrists (and probably a fair share of environmentalists), this place is no haven for FF.

Lumping further taxes onto the Irish motorist is like taxing shoes- we need them, we don't have a choice about it and the government knows it too well to change it. It's not a grand strategy- it's opportunism.

junkyard

What are FF using these days to brainwash ye ninty9er? Is it hypnosis or chemically induced? How can you honestly stand your ground and support these f**king crooks, can you really not see what they're up to?:rolleyes: Here's the new FF logo for ya ninty9er321861495a3856880410b265819227ml.jpg

JHMEG

99er, I can't help but notice you knock FG and Labour at any given opportunity. You even have nick names for them that I wasn't aware of.

I also notice that you're in Ógra FF, which is for juniors. And you drive a small Opel Corsa and can't get insurance on a 2.0 FTO. So, what age are you.. 20 or so?

Now, it's been more than 10 years since FG or Lab were in govt. Meaning if my maths are right you were 10 years old, or less, the last time they were in power. So what you have to say about the opposition is meaningless, and your single minded devotion to the only party who have been in power since you came of age is senseless, narrowminded etc etc etc. You say FF are great, but it's only cos someone else told you so.

Altho if you want to succeed in a society in which a significant minority are FF sympathisers, maybe the best thing to do is to toe the party line. No hope of getting that land rezoned residential, or getting PP for a hotel in the grounds of a national monument, or no chance of being able to sell Irish gas to Irish people over a network paid for by Irish taxpayers, at inflated market rates.

I voted for FF once. Then they screwed up the country and now I vote for anyone I think might be able to fix it (Greens, FG and Lab in last election).

Oilrig

"I never said that a 1.2l Corsa and a 320D weren't in the same band"

True, (but I would wager that you didn't know it until it was pointed out to you either...) but you implied that anyone driving a BMW (or similar) was not eco friendly... standard stuff.

"A headline decrease in growth is technically recession"

I suggest you run this statement, through your contacts, by the Dept. of Finance before you make such proclamations... doing a solo run on this one will not endear you to "the party"

"Edit: I'm not looking for a fight" Neither am I mate,

I prefer to pick on those who are in my weight...

ninty9er

Oilrig wrote: »

"I never said that a 1.2l Corsa and a 320D weren't in the same band"

True, (but I would wager that you didn't know it until it was pointed out to you either...) but you implied that anyone driving a BMW (or similar) was not eco friendly... standard stuff.

I used an S600 as my example, not a BMW. I think you'll find the S600 pollutes somewhere in the region of 300g/km,

EDIT: 340 to be precise!!

Oilrig wrote: »

"A headline decrease in growth is technically recession"

I suggest you run this statement, through your contacts, by the Dept. of Finance before you make such proclamations... doing a solo run on this one will not endear you to "the party"

Talk to Anthony Leddin. Well respected in the field of Economics, he may give you a short tutorial on recession!

"The Party" doesn't consist of just 77 people sitting in a chamber in a big house in Dublin...

astraboy

galwaytt wrote: »

This entire 'eco-friendly' thing has got out of control............what about people, and their entitlements to a decent comfortable life based on the fruits of their labours??

well said mate. I do think we have a responsibility towards the environment, but this whole aspect of questioning everything over carbon has gotten out of hand. Another tax on petrol or diesel should not be introduced. More efficient cars coming on stream and oil at 100 dollars a barrel should ensure people make changes. Also, people can only make certain changes while public transport is as expensive and inefficient as it is. Compare going from Cork to Dublin on the train and by air, guess which is far cheaper?

Also, we are heading for a slowdown, but a recession may still not happen. Growth will slow, but it may not go into negative growth. Slapping on further taxes when the economy is in its current state is not a bright move.

Seth Brundle

That may well be true astraboy but the simple fact is that the Government are facing hefty fines for missing Carbon targets and/or buying carbon credits. The motorist is the chosen one to pay for most of this.

astraboy

kbannon wrote: »

That may well be true astraboy but the simple fact is that the Government are facing hefty fines for missing Carbon targets and/or buying carbon credits. The motorist is the chosen one to pay for most of this.

That again, is an issue. Other then the fact that we are a small nation and what we do will have negagiable impact on global warming anyway(even if we all stopped driving our cars totally), I hate seeing the motorist as yet another soft touch. I realize that we as a country can set an example for the rest of the world to follow, but why o why are we not looking at other areas such as nuclear power? This again would incite the greens that want us all living back in mud huts. The fact of the matter is most people in Ireland have a car as they NEED one to do basic everyday things, and more people are buying them as we are both more affluent and public transport is less and less desirable, easy to use and cost effective.

Also slightly off topic, but these fines for Kyoto we are to pay, who does that money go to and to what causes is it administered to?

junkyard

Did I read somewhere that the Kyoto protocol was optional and is anybody keeping a tab on how much and where the money collected is really going? Tbh, it sounds like a nice little earner to me for those in the know.

Seth Brundle

The motorist is a soft touch because we let it happen. The Irish are crap at protesting and when something we don't like happens, we bitch about it for a bit and then bend over and take it.
As for the green party - these idiots are in control in Germany where they are reducing the number of nuclear power stations and increasing capacity in fossil fuel powered stations. What hope is there here?
As for fines, I think they go to the EU - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol#European_Union

astraboy

kbannon wrote: »

The motorist is a soft touch because we let it happen. The Irish are crap at protesting and when something we don't like happens, we bitch about it for a bit and then bend over and take it.
As for the green party - these idiots are in control in Germany where they are reducing the number of nuclear power stations and increasing capacity in fossil fuel powered stations. What hope is there here?
As for fines, I think they go to the EU - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol#European_Union

I don't think we are too bad at protesting, not as good as the French but we can hold our own!:D The problem is most adults in this country(a massive majority anyway) are drivers or car owners. Its getting people annoyed enough to say "I won't stand for this". The Government slowly makes motoring more expensive in amounts barely acceptable to the electorate, but acceptable they are because we are not going to drive to Dublin to protest as our cars cost 50E more a year to tax. A pity I know. This leaves it up to organizations like the AA, who in fairness stick up for us as a group but the Government pays little attention.

As for the greens, my opinion is similar to yours.

cantdecide

astraboy wrote: »

The problem is most adults in this country(a massive majority anyway) are drivers or car owners

There's always a massive anti-motoring undertone in the media (especially RTE). The government is relying on keeping the general public ignorant. The majority don't know how dependant we are on cars and the extent to which the govt. is using this as a cash cow.

If everyone knew the extent to which we are being overcharged in every facet of motoring there would be outrage.

mikemac

maidhc wrote: »

It is stupid talk to go on about public transport. Yes, it is vital, and it needs major investment, but it is not the magic answer. I or my neighbours and at least a million more will never be able to go to work without a car... end of story.

I pass queues of traffic every morning and >75% of them have only 1 person in them. A dart line and bus lane beside them but I'm sure they bitch about traffic and lack of investment in roads when they talk to their friends. It's terrible that you have no public transport near you but if it ever improves and if car owners will never use it then it won't work. And if some use it and traffic decreases then a lot of car owners will be even more encouraged to drive.

Witness our farcical Car Free Days. People think that traffic will be light so they say they'll definitly drive on that day. Ironically, traffic on car free days are often worse than typical days because they couldn't manage for one lousy day.

If you live in a rural area then this doesn't apply to you.

cantdecide wrote: »

I've said this before (surprisingly:rolleyes:) but a couple of % on the income tax rates and hey presto, no need for the stealth taxes and definitely no need to mash the motorist into the floor in exchange for a few blips weekly that you probably won't even miss...

[There's nothing wrong with sensible taxation and no one is saying there is

Motorists pay a lot of tax no question but you want non-drivers to pay more income tax to subsidise motorists?:eek:

Seth Brundle

micmclo wrote: »

Motorists pay a lot of tax no question but you want non-drivers to pay more income tax to subsidise motorists?:eek:

How are motorists subsidised?

mikemac

I'm not saying motorists are subsidised, far from it.
But cantdecide suggested raising income tax by a few % and this money could be used to lower taxes on motorists and other purposes.

Now that may seem reasonable to most people in Motors forum but I can't agree.
You'd have people who may have low-paying jobs (and so are less likely to own cars) have to pay more tax just so running a car could be cheaper for motorists.

TheBazman

micmclo wrote: »

You'd have people who may have low-paying jobs (and so are less likely to own cars) have to pay more tax just so running a car could be cheaper for motorists.

What about the current situation whereby people who pay road tax on their cars see some of their money going elsewhere (ie) not on the roads. If you use your argument the Govt should silo each euro of tax paid in a particular area and reinvest it back in that area. It just doesn't work that way

astraboy

micmclo wrote: »

I pass queues of traffic every morning and >75% of them have only 1 person in them. A dart line and bus lane beside them but I'm sure they bitch about traffic and lack of investment in roads when they talk to their friends. It's terrible that you have no public transport near you but if it ever improves and if car owners will never use it then it won't work. And if some use it and traffic decreases then a lot of car owners will be even more encouraged to drive.




Motorists pay a lot of tax no question but you want non-drivers to pay more income tax to subsidise motorists?:eek:

I'm not from Dublin, but from what I've heard the luas is always packed at rush hour. I can certainly say the infrequent bus service that passes me as i walk to college is always packed in the mornings and evenings. People have no problem, generally, using public transport once it is cheap and easy to use, which lets be honest is rarely the case in Ireland. When public transport reaches a certain level of discomfort and unreliability people choose their cars over buses for obvious reasons.

In Cork an example is the Cork-Middelton rail line, which was promised at the last election. Surprize Surprize it has been put off for a few more years. People living in Middelton were delighted when it was origionally announced as they are sick of driving into cork and home each day, but yet again they have been left down.

rebel.ranter

All this talk of carbon levies needs to be put on hold until a decent useable transport system is put in place.
Take my example, I start work at 8am, the first bus heading to town passes my house at 8.30am. I live in a new suburb 4 miles from the city centre. I'd be at least an hour late for work every day. How can paying a carbon levy be fair in situations like this?
It was worse when I lived 12 miles from the city, 4 busses a day total, the last one stopping & turning around 3 miles from my house! Again the first one was at 8.30am.
Down here in Cork they have been systematically obliterating the on-street parking to deter people from driving into town, however they have not made any significant improvements in the alternative methods for getting into the city centre.

cantdecide

micmclo wrote: »

Motorists pay a lot of tax no question but you want non-drivers to pay more income tax to subsidise motorists?:eek:

The reverse is actually the case at the moment.

Basic PAYE rates are dropped by 1%. It's a big headline and Brian Dobson is telling us all about it- we're going to be rich and the govt are great. Now effictively, no one is any richer, the headlines have done the govt good and the stealth taxes take over. The 'green card' is the latest tool for seperating those awful, dreadful motorists from even more of their hard earned cash.

micmclo-between VAT, VRT, Import Duty, Road Tax, Fuel Duties etc etc, even you are being ripped off the same as the rest of us. I don't believe anyone else in Europe has the variety and level of motoring taxes we have and they want more?? It boggles the mind. This in a country where we MUST drive.

When motorists are being victimised to this extent, giving back a tenner a week is not even an empty gesture. In other words, motorists are subsidising a huge portion of the rest of the economy so equilibrium shouldn't be too much to ask for.

I'm waiting for the Midleton train service myself, btw. I remember seeing the last ever train on that line back in the eighties.

cancan

Transport makes up only 19% of the total of greenhouse emmisions in ireland.


So why does it seem that the motorist is the only one being made pay?


Green party and FF yet again having failed us, propose hitting the motorist yet another blow.

How about the green party do something forward thinking, instead of hitting people who have no choice but to pay.

Anyone who votes for either of these groups again, really needs their heads examined.

E92

cancan wrote: »

Transport makes up only 19% of the total of greenhouse emmisions in ireland.


So why does it seem that the motorist is the only one being made pay?


Green party and FF yet again having failed us, propose hitting the motorist yet another blow.

How about the green party do something forward thinking, instead of hitting people who have no choice but to pay.

As long as people are stupid enough to vote FF in they can get away with murder, because they know that we're the fools that keep putting that shower of crooks in again and again.

If the Greens weren't in, the notion of a Carbon tax wouldn't even be mentioned, because FF can now say "its the Greens fault" since it is an area the Greeens would have control over, and low and behold they'll get away with it.

If you don't like a Government, you get rid of ALL parts rather than just one minor bit of it(which is what most people seem to be advocating).

You can bet your life that if the Greens came up with a good idea FF would be all for collective responsibility quite quickly.

junkyard

The funny thing is though, everyone I spoke to after the last election swore they didn't vote for FF or the greens and they still got into power either the voters are liars too or FF must have some serious muppets for supporters who just blindly vote for them no matter what.

cantdecide

cancan wrote: »

Transport makes up only 19% of the total of greenhouse emmisions in ireland

I might have it all wrong but I was told once that the production of concrete produces the same weight in carbon as it does concrete?? Is that at all possible? (sounds more than far fetched but I always wanted to know if it was true).