ATH3: The first verbal bitchslap of 08'

Charlie

woooo232 wrote: »

LOL are you serious?! I just replied to your points in one post! How did I reply twice? I was just clarifying my position!

Do you seriously care that much about scoring points? Surely you can respond to whatever you like! Maybe I'm not understanding this thread properly but I didn't realise it was that rigid.

Its not like most other threads, its suppose to replicate the sports talk show Around The Horn.

You can defend your choice as many times as you want, but you can only make one argument against another's choice. If they respond to this, you cannot try and counter their response.

In fairness, its not rigid, its the rules, which Bounty Hunter has made clear in numerous posts.

The Sparrow

charlie mchugh wrote: »

Its not like most other threads, its suppose to replicate the sports talk show Around The Horn.

You can defend your choice as many times as you want, but you can only make one argument against another's choice. If they respond to this, you cannot try and counter their response.

Ok. Maybe I still don't understand, how did I break the rules then? Surely I was just defending my choice?

I wasn't arguing against anybody else's choice I was just responding to Vince's argument about my post. If I messed up appologies but I'm a bit lost now.

RichieLawlor

I think Kennedy could do with a bit of Freshening up, imo he was the hottest thing in WWE before his injury, The fans loved him and he was really good with the mic

Since he came back hes been a little stale, Stars like Jeff Hardy, Orton MVP have well surpassed him.

I propose teaming him with this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Hart

I loved him when he was around, i can imagine him with the megaphone shouting "Kennedy" all over the place and imo he would be immensly over with the fans.

Jimmy could really draw a reaction to the Kennedy gimmick aswell as he has been associated with with some big time acts (hart foundations honkey tonk man ect) and ther promos would be electric

i think there gimmicks would blend well together, and with the return of "the mouth of the south" maybe kennedy could get that well deserved push.

Bounty Hunter

charlie mchugh wrote: »

Its not like most other threads, its suppose to replicate the sports talk show Around The Horn.

You can defend your choice as many times as you want, but you can only make one argument against another's choice. If they respond to this, you cannot try and counter their response.

In fairness, its not rigid, its the rules, which Bounty Hunter has made clear in numerous posts.

thank you Charlie, I made these rules so that the thread doesent decend into chaos. In particular the making only one arguement against anothers choice rule ,which although it may seem rigid to some without it and with the amount of people competing this time round this thread could turn into masses of individual disagreements where each round spans numerous pages and is almost unreadable.

woooo dont worry about it, not just for you but with so many new competitors this time its probably good there was a brief incident that would need the rules/a rule to be clarified, hope you keep playing.

ill leave it at that though as like i said i dont want to further any thread tangents. With so many copetitors (although some will probably drop out) expect a much closer run game this time, and dont lose heart if you have a bad round as it isnt too likely that the same people will win many rounds.

The Sparrow

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

woooo dont worry about it, not just for you but with so many new competitors this time its probably good there was a brief incident that would need the rules/a rule to be clarified, hope you keep playing.

Ah yeah its not a big deal or anything. I'm just curious because I'm still not sure if I did anything wrong. As Charlie McHugh said posters can defend their choice as much as they like. I thought that was what I did? I made a suggestion and Vince countered it with some valid arguments and then I defended my original idea by responding to his points. My second post wasn't countering any arguments that Vince made regarding ideas that he had about who should be managed it was merely defending my choice.

Sorry I'm probably being pedantic here but I'm just curious about if I did or didn't do anything wrong!

Bounty Hunter

The way i see it Vince took it that the opening of your answer where you refer to people making choices like the one he did was a response to answers like his so he defended his arguement. You responded thinking you were defending your arguement while he would have thought you were once again responding to his hense a technical rule break in his mind.

like i said dont worry about it, this time anyway it wont affect anything. in the future i might solve little disputes like this over PM so as once again to avoid taking the thread off topic.

Fozzy

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree, Cena, Jericho and Michaels are superior to Orton in terms of mic-work. However, as has already been said, it wouldn't be credible to suddenly give Orton a manager. Orton sees himself as the future and also firmly believes he is the future on his own. He was won the title alone, he has had decent matches alone, he has elevated to the main event alone... Why would he decide that he needs a manager now?

I explained in a later post that I agree that it wouldn't make sense currently. WWE would have to establish two things, that Larry can make people win and that Orton needs help winning. If those two conditions are satisfied then I don't see any problem with pairing them together

Deleted User wrote: »

It wouldn't make sense. Randy Orton can do decent promos sometimes (Mick Foley, 2004) and whilst i do believe he sounds monotonous on the mic, fans have become used to him. He has been cutting promos for too long, and been viewed as a top tier guy for too long for this to be realistic. A tag team partner (like Edge) made sense because he had to take on two people (DX) but in a singles feud, unless he was being bullied by his opponents manager, then I just don't see it helping him out at all.

Fans have become used to him but I still don't think that many accept him as the top guy. Like Vince said, a manager can be used to push someone up a level. If Orton had a manager who could cut better promos than himself then of course it would help him, assuming that the two conditions I mentioned were done

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, I understand your point. But It wouldn't work. Randy Orton is too much of a back stabber kinda guy. He doesn't listen to people anyway. He just goes and does what he wants. When he was getting help by Flair in the later days of Evolution, he pretty much told Flair to f*ck off and leave him alone. I don't see Randy getting a manager being realistic.

Character evolution is a wonderful thing! If Orton thought that something or someone would help him be the top guy, then why wouldn't he use it? If he lost his title and lost rematches then it could become clear to him that doing his own thing just doesn't work anymore and he needs a change

I guess all my points there are just saying that if WWE give a reason for it to happen then it would make sense

And just off-topic, there's so much logic being used by everyone on this thread, who ever said that logic doesn't matter in wrestling?!

Bubs101

Fozzy wrote: »

And just off-topic, there's so much logic being used by everyone on this thread, who ever said that logic doesn't matter in wrestling?!

A certain Mr. Russo

Fozzy

Fozzy wrote: »

And just off-topic, there's so much logic being used by everyone on this thread, who ever said that logic doesn't matter in wrestling?!

I actually agree. People's points are being read into way too much.

For example, why would Orton need a manager to get him to the top if he is already there? then you counter that by saying if he loses that spot then he will get someone to help him get back up there.


I think there's far too many 'What if's'.



Also, Lashley is a huge babyface. People like me and you may not like him, but I imagine that the majority of WWE's audience are kids and young teenagers who don't understand the backstage workings of pro-wrestling. Its just like Cena. You wouldn't turn him heel because theres too much money being made off him. Fair enough, people on here might not buy his merchandise, but all the 10 year old girls cant get his DVD and CD off the shelves fast enough.

Vince135792003

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, Lashley is a huge babyface. People like me and you may not like him, but I imagine that the majority of WWE's audience are kids and young teenagers who don't understand the backstage workings of pro-wrestling. Its just like Cena. You wouldn't turn him heel because theres too much money being made off him. Fair enough, people on here might not buy his merchandise, but all the 10 year old girls cant get his DVD and CD off the shelves fast enough.

John Cena and Booby Lashley are incomparable as far as being babyface draws.

The Sparrow

Vince135792003 wrote: »

John Cena and Booby Lashley are incomparable as far as being babyface draws.

I don't think that was the comparison that he was trying to make. From reading his post he seemed to be saying that they were comparable in the sense that neither are likely to be turned heel by WWE anytime soon which is a valid comparison.

I'm not sure if as Fozzy said ppl on this thread are being very logical or just plain pedantic! I mean when you make one little comparison about two different guys who may have one thing in common but are very different in most other ways it is still a valid comparison because you are only comparing one aspect of them. There is no need for the standard how can you compare those two guys. Well you can because they may have little things in common while still being very different

Bounty Hunter

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ATH:Round 2
Q.If any one current WWE superstar was to turn heel or face right now, who should it be? why choose that person? and how would you turn them?

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Question reccomended by Danger Dave who promises he will be back in ATH4, im sure we will get a lot of people picking the same people hense the how would you turn them aspect of the question.

here is something i posted in the first incarnation of ATH: can we please avoid argueing about scores im only human and not opnipotent (unfortunatley) plus if i had to justify why people got different scores in each round it would turn into a mess plus there are another few rounds in which im sure you will all get contrasting scores in.

However i will occasionally pick someone with a low score and give a bit of an explanation/advice that may apply to more than just themselves.

i.e Machismo Fan: A long answer does not make a good answer but some development is needed if you are going to get better scores than those around you. Sorry to Single you out but yours is just an example.

Double C

I bags Punk!

OK I think CM Punk has established himself as a major babyface at this stage. He always gets the big pops at PPV's, and while he might not get responses on the same level as Jeff Hardy, say, he still gets a great reaction. Also, I know win loss records don’t count for anything in WWE, but Punk won more matches than anyone else last year. Basically I'm just saying that he has established himself as a huge superstar in the company. A huge superstar should be on the number one show, this is why I would move him to Raw.

I would probably has him debut by making a run in to save Hardy from a beat-down from Orton, and some other heel, JBL maybe, setting up a tag match on Raw the next week. I'd have Punk turn on Hardy the following week. Then I would give him the microphone and let him do what he does best. Punk's promo would tear Hardy a new one, bringing up his old drug habits, how Hardy lost his passion for the business when he left WWE originally, and so forth.

This feud could have the potential to run for months on end, with both guys scoring wins at PPVs, leading to a blow off match at one of the big four PPVS. I'd have Punk come out victorious at the end of it and give him a long IC title run. A win over Hardy would also establish him as a huge heel in the eyes of the fans.

His next feud would be an obvious one, Chris Jericho. The promos would be amazing with Punk cutting real serious ones, hopefully bringing back the "better than you" gimmick that worked so well in ROH. Jericho would counteract by embarrassing him as only Jericho can. Punk’s straight edge lifestyle includes a detail about no promiscuous sex, and Jericho would have a field day with that!

The ultimate feud that I want to see Punk involved in is one with Michaels, preferably culminating in a Wrestlemania main event with the title on the line. I probably wouldn’t put the title on Punk, not for a good few years, and I’d have him as face when he does get it. Losing to Michaels would be the perfect manner in which to turn Punk babyface again, respecting HBK for overcoming his demons and all that, leading up to Punk eventually taking the title some time down the line.

Turning Punk heel and moving him to Raw is the only really effective change WWE could make right now. Raw is full of babyfaces with Michaels, Triple H, Jericho and Hardy, and the imminent returns of Lashley and Cena. JBL is only a temporary heel on Raw, surely he’s being lined up to take over commentary duty on Raw? After that you have Orton and Umaga as main event level heels.

Having Punk as a heel on Raw also leaves the door open for a feud with Austin, ala his feud with Raven in ROH. That’s my argument in favour of Punk, I’m sure other people are going to use him too, so let the arguments begin!

gimmick

Ill have to take a back seat to this one, as I do not watch enough WWE to make a competent answer.

michael.etc...

I don't know what way this works, or if anyone can just enter, but as soon as i saw this, i posted a really long reply about turning Punk heel. Sadly,my login timed out.

Needless to say, i'm not going through it all again.

Bounty Hunter

michael.etc... wrote: »

I don't know what way this works, or if anyone can just enter, but as soon as i saw this, i posted a really long reply about turning Punk heel. Sadly,my login timed out.

Needless to say, i'm not going through it all again.

Micheal etc and anyone else reading this thread anyone can enter although you have missed round 1 at this stage. The rules which there arent too many of are layed out on page one and there are links to previous versions of this there also. If you wanted you could even still enter an answer for Rd1 but it would only be marked out of 10 instead of the usual 20 because we are now in Rd2 (each round lasts 2days).

Everyone is Welcome, the more the merrier

Machismo Fan

I'd turn Batista. The Animal really doesn't have much to do anymore. He could continue to play up being Rey Mysterios buddy and then turn on him destroying him in the process. It would set up what would be a good Wrestlemania match and give Batista renewed life as him being a monster heel would be a breath of fresh air. Plus, it would give Mysterio a great feud for Wrestlemania.

Batista as a face is stale and needs to change so there is a perfectly good way to do it and keep both men over.

Vince135792003

Bobby Lashley. I think there's alot of reasons why:

- I don't think even with the push he got last year think that he got over as as a good guy as he should have. So there's no real financial risk to it, in the same way there would be if you turned a John Cena heel.

- I don't think they guy is loaded with charisma which I think is more important if your a good guy rather than a bad guy. "The monster heel" gimmick is something, given his look, physique and and amateur backround that could really work (with the right manager that being a Heyman in my mind).

- At a more basic level, WWE is not short of good guys. They're short of bad guys if anything. On Raw, the following people would be more over as a good guy than him:

John Cena
Triple H
Shawn Michaels
Jeff Hardy
Ric Flair
Chris Jericho

The same essentially applies to Smackdown. So there's really no room for him as a top tier good guy and I think he would be way more useful as a top 3 heel on either brand (which he has the potential to be) than say a fourth or fifth good guy on either brand.

- Above all else, I see potential in him. He hasn't always impressed me but he's been in feuds (one with Finlay as an example) that have convinced me that they should persevere with him.

How would I do it?

I'd have him return as as a good guy to the Smackdown brand. I'd have him team up with Rey Mysterio. I'd have them win the tag belts for a couple of months and then I'd turn him beating on Rey after they lose the belts with Lashley blaming Rey for the loss.

I'd then align Lashley and MVP. And then you could add Matt Hardy into the mix as Rey's partner to feud with the 2.

There are lots of ways you could do the turn. From Lashley's perspective he could say that he was tired carrying the team "with a little man".

Or you could have MVP flash the cash telling him join up with him with the promise that they will rise to the top ala Shawn and Diesal 1995.

Above all else though the most important thing is that he turns on Rey. Rey is beloved like few in the WWE and Lashley turning on him would definitely work in mind. I couldn't think of a better babyface to turn on than Rey if you wanted to give someone momentum when turning them.

Plus I think it's an intriguing match up, given their very different looks.

On Batista, I think it's a pretty good choice too and a feud with Mysterio would be interesting. It's financially a risk though. He is stale but he is still very over as a good guy and is an integral part of Smackdown. So do you keep him as a B minus baby face or do you try and turn him into an A plus heel with the risk that it could be a C or D (Steve Austin heel turn in 2001 as an example) result? Hard to say.

Cactus Col

After I saw my first choice was already taken, I popped on over to wwe.com to have a quick look at the rosters to make my decision. I didn't have to look far, and I kicked myself for how obvious it is.

The perfect superstar to turn heel or face right now would be Y2J, Chris Jericho. Jericho has all the tools to play the heel role, not only is he ultra charasmatic, but he is equally adept at wrestling.

WWE made a huge and horrible mistake by giving us the save us promos too far ahead of Y2J's return. We all knew who was coming back. However this could have been slightly negated had Jericho returned as the arrogant heel. Bursting out onto raw, claiming he is the greatest.

It has been seen in the past that Jericho seems much more comfortable playing the heel. He is more free in his promos, more able to verbally attack faces, in other words, he is free to be a complete bastard, and how we loved it!

As a face, he is much more restricted, his promos became obvious and repetitive, containing little of the humour that excited fans before. He became the wwe equivelent to beige. We're not against him, but there are so many other much more interesting colours out there. It is clear that WWE has seen this, and so have decided to feud him against one of their most hated heels in the hope to gain some fan support for Jericho.

A heel turn would also be perfect for when Cena returns, after all it was because of a loss to Cena that Jericho was fired. A potentially great feud already set up. The verbal sparring between these two alone could be epic.

We could also get to see a rematch of the classic Y2J HBK match from a few years ago. This time though, with HBK currently firing on all cylanders, a nice long program.

The above feuds, and ones with Jeff HArdy and possibly Triple H should be enough to excite any wrestling fan.

Fact is Jericho is a born heel, when he goes into the hall of fame, that's how we'll all remember him, and that's the position he should be occupying now.

Cactus Col

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Bobby Lashley. I think there's alot of reasons why:


- I don't think they guy is loaded with charisma which I think is more important if your a good guy rather than a bad guy. "The monster heel" gimmick is something, given his look, physique and and amateur backround that could really work (with the right manager that being a Heyman in my mind).

I don't think Lashley is a bad idea. However, at the moment, WWE is swamped in monster heels, there's kahli, mark henry, big v, and umaga. Adding another to the mix would be a bit much, and would weaken those other heels to a degree.

Cactus Col

Machismo Fan wrote: »

I'd turn Batista. The Animal really doesn't have much to do anymore. He could continue to play up being Rey Mysterios buddy and then turn on him destroying him in the process. It would set up what would be a good Wrestlemania match and give Batista renewed life as him being a monster heel would be a breath of fresh air. Plus, it would give Mysterio a great feud for Wrestlemania.

Batista as a face is stale and needs to change so there is a perfectly good way to do it and keep both men over.

Batista I can see making a good heel. However, I don't think there is a face on smackdown that he could be involved in a decent feud with. Fans were turned unimpressed with Mysterios title reign, and we've already had our fill of Batista v Undertaker. AFter that there is currently no face worth mentioning. Also, I can only with Edge on that show I can only see Batista being in his shadow.

Cactus Col

Double C wrote: »

I bags Punk!

OK I think CM Punk has established himself as a major babyface at this stage. He always gets the big pops at PPV's, and while he might not get responses on the same level as Jeff Hardy, say, he still gets a great reaction. Also, I know win loss records don’t count for anything in WWE, but Punk won more matches than anyone else last year. Basically I'm just saying that he has established himself as a huge superstar in the company. A huge superstar should be on the number one show, this is why I would move him to Raw.

The problem I'd have with Punk is where would a heel turn from him leave ECW? He is probably the biggest star on there, actually, lets face it he's the only reason to watch ECW. Take him from the show, and you are left with bland nobodies. The ECW fans need somebody to cheer and a reason to watch, and until wwe can put somebody on Punk's level there, then I would think Punk turning heel, or leaving would be too damaging.

Bounty Hunter

Cactus Col wrote: »

After I saw my first choice was already taken, I popped on over to wwe.com to have a quick look at the rosters to make my decision. I didn't have to look far, and I kicked myself for how obvious it is.

Im sure you knew this but just to establish the fact incase anyone reads the above and takes it that you cant, you can use the same superstar that someone else has already used. However of course (maybe why Cactus Col choose otherwise) it is had to win a debate using the same points someone has already made. Prehaps you think you can put forward a much better arguement for someone already used, or like i said in the question a better way for them to turn Heel or Face, if so go for it.

Double C

Cactus Col wrote: »

WWE made a huge and horrible mistake by giving us the save us promos too far ahead of Y2J's return. We all knew who was coming back. However this could have been slightly negated had Jericho returned as the arrogant heel. Bursting out onto raw, claiming he is the greatest.

I don't think so. I think they were expecting Jericho to get a bigger pop when he came back, but there is no way he was going to come back a a heel. Besides, he did that the last time.

Cactus Col wrote: »

It has been seen in the past that Jericho seems much more comfortable playing the heel. He is more free in his promos, more able to verbally attack faces, in other words, he is free to be a complete bastard, and how we loved it!

Thats definitely true and I think it applies to Punk as well. Triple H too for that matter. Jericho is bound to turn eventually, it is what he does best.

Cactus Col wrote: »

The problem I'd have with Punk is where would a heel turn from him leave ECW? He is probably the biggest star on there, actually, lets face it he's the only reason to watch ECW. Take him from the show, and you are left with bland nobodies. The ECW fans need somebody to cheer and a reason to watch, and until wwe can put somebody on Punk's level there, then I would think Punk turning heel, or leaving would be too damaging.

Yeah, I was thinking that too. They did pluck Punk from obscurity 8 months ago and it didn't take him long to get established as a top guy. A lot of this had to do with his popularity in the indies. So my solution would be to introduce a Colt Cabana or even a Matt Sydal. Sydal is small and all, but he is the current heavyweight champ in OVW so that must go a long way for him.

Of course, another solution is to scrap ECW and merge their roster with Smackdown, getting rid of waste of spaces like Mike Knox and the Boogeyman in the process.

Vince135792003

Cactus Col wrote: »

I don't think Lashley is a bad idea. However, at the moment, WWE is swamped in monster heels, there's kahli, mark henry, big v, and umaga. Adding another to the mix would be a bit much, and would weaken those other heels to a degree.

Khali, Umaga and Mark Henry's runs as top tier bad guys is over, going by how they have been treated in the last 6 months.

They have already been made look weak and have been watered down. None of them are money players right now (aside from maybe Khali versus Hogan) but sure even Khali has been feuding with the midget recently.

Plus aside from Umaga, there's no one on that list that has the potential that a Bobby Lashley does.

EdK

I think Finlay should turn flat out heel, he just isnt a natural face,down to his facial expressions, the way he looks and the way he wrestles in a street/brawler style.

Smackdown is lacking in main event heels and I feel if he is portrayed correctly as a tough streetwise brawler it could work well, At the moment they build him half way he wins in heelish fashion. Then celebrates by dancing a jig with Hornswoggle thus taking away his credibility.

Finlay needs to be heel IMO he doesnt work as a mix/tweener

The man looks flat out mean, he shouldnt be used as a comedy act especially as he is in the region of 49/50 and WWE should get the best out of him while they still can

He is capable of having good matches evidenced by his SD match with MVP he can talk, he can brawl hes trained wrestlers, he knows wrestling.

I think he works best as a heel but everytime he gets momentum they bring out the comedy side of his character and it kills it.

It would be no loss to lose his association with Hornswoggle and take the stereotype or atleast some of it out of his gimmick, as the whole Hornswoggle/ leprauchaun bit has run it's course.

As for turning him it could be quite easy Finlay gets tired of bailing Horny out and aligns himself with Vince to dish out some tough love to Hornswoggle and there after being Vinces enforcer/go to guy in a love hate relationship like they have been portraying recently, but with them being old friends but still ripping on each other in a oneupmanship type way, possibly ending with the death of the alliance and a payoff feud/match
And that's my 2 cents, see ya next time folks

I'd have to go with the Heart Break Kid, Shawn Michaels.

Right now Shawn is a face... a bad, bland, generic, watered down face.

D-X were funny in '99. When they came back we seen that Triple H and Shawn weren't actually as funny as we remember them being.

However... heel Shawn is like... God. And its not like that is a judgment i'm making from decades ago and Sherri was singing to him, and it could be a talent he lost.. Hes possibly the greatest heel character in the last five years. VS Hulk Hogan he was absolutely amazing.

"I'll kick you in the face, and put those teeth down your throat. I don't care if I have to go to your hotel, take your teeth out of that glass, bring them to the arena and then kick you in the face.. I'm gonna do it regardless."


Also his stint where he dressed as Hogan..; everything was just done fantastically.


The crowd are big into the Heel HBK. The Internet audience love the heel HBK. He is ruthless, arrogant and draws a crowd!

Double C

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd have to go with the Heart Break Kid, Shawn Michaels.

Right now Shawn is a face... a bad, bland, generic, watered down face.

OK, thats just plain offensive! I'd like to see what you have to say to justify that statement. Michaels is the number 1 guy in the company, nay, business, and has been for the last 5 and a half years since his comeback. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the only time he was heel in those 5 and a half years was for his stint aganist Hogan. With his personal beliefs I couldn't see him turning heel ever again, apart from maybe a program with the Rock, or someone else of his stature, Austin maybe, but thats nothing new.

A heel Michaels is great. He was awesome in 97. But he was also a different person in 97. I think if he turned now it would end up similar to the DX reunion, a lame watered down version. His stint with Hogan was quality and his Larry King interview is one of the better segments ever, but unless he's fighting someone like Hogan, i.e. a monster babyface, I really don't see anyone wanting to boo the guy.

Double C

Double C wrote: »

OK, thats just plain offensive! I'd like to see what you have to say to justify that statement. Michaels is the number 1 guy in the company, nay, business, and has been for the last 5 and a half years since his comeback. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the only time he was heel in those 5 and a half years was for his stint aganist Hogan. With his personal beliefs I couldn't see him turning heel ever again, apart from maybe a program with the Rock, or someone else of his stature, Austin maybe, but thats nothing new.

A heel Michaels is great. He was awesome in 97. But he was also a different person in 97. I think if he turned now it would end up similar to the DX reunion, a lame watered down version. His stint with Hogan was quality and his Larry King interview is one of the better segments ever, but unless he's fighting someone like Hogan, i.e. a monster babyface, I really don't see anyone wanting to boo the guy.

This is my problem with this game. There's too much looking into each others answers. I mean.. I said i'd turn him face.. I didn't say anything about what Shawn is like in real life. He was religious in his hoagn stint.. but he was still good.



Anyway,

As for my comment on his face status... Its true.

What has he done to change from 2002? Nothing. He comes out. Dances about. Takes off his entrance jacket. Wrestles the same match he did last week. Wins or loses. Leaves. And he may cut the promo about "if im going down, im bringing everyone down with me". Woop-dee-doo.


As much as i respect Shawn... He's stale. And thats not a good thing... thats a bad thing.

Double C

Deleted User wrote: »

This is my problem with this game. There's too much looking into each others answers.

Thats what the game is all about, giving an opinion and backing it up. You'll have to accept that people will disagree with you from time to time!

Fozzy

Looking up and down the WWE roster, everyone seems to be in a role that fits them currently, or they've recently made a turn and there'd be no point in turning them back. But for me, there is one man who I'd consider turning face. That man is The Great Khali

Khali has been a heel ever since he debuted. He's a natural heel: big, ugly, mean, strong and he can't speak English. He's feuded with most of the top faces in WWE, like Undertaker, Batista, Michaels, and of course Cena. Fans hated the guy at first because he was so awkward and clumsy and managed to pin the Undertaker with a weak looking kick, but during the build up to his feud with Kane at Wrestlemania, he started getting noticeable cheers. The fans were beginning to like the guy, and I think it would have been the perfect time for a face turn after WM, but he ended up in a feud with the company's biggest babyface (Cena) so there was no hope of him getting a good reaction then

Now though, I think that he's gotten a little stale. The two main champions are heels themselves and Khali has feuded with many of the challengers already. He's been doing some comedy segments with Hornswoggle and a few matches with Finlay. He's proven that he can excel in a comedy role, so what I would do is this:

Have Khali fire his translator. The guy is only holding Khali back and I'm convinced that he hasn't been translating Khali correctly, leading to a misrepresentation of what Khali is about. Team Khali up with Hornswoggle. This would enrage Vince. Vince obviously wants rid of his son so he'd send guys like Umaga and Mark Henry out to deal with him. But then Khali would save the little guy. This would endear him to the hearts of many WWE fans (almost like when Kane turned face and teamed with X-Pac, remember how effective that face turn was when everyone saw how the monster had feelings?)

I'd change Khali's character slightly too. Hornswoggle is clearly a fun-loving guy, he's always playing tricks on Coach and Regal. Have Khali join in. "The World's Largest Practical Joker". You've all heard Khali's laugh and how infectious it is. Remember that segment with Carlito chasing the midget into a painted-on hole in the wall? Remember how crap it was? Now imagine if it had ended with Khali coming into the room and laughing and pointing at Carlito knocked out on the floor. It could have saved the segment! You could have had Khali try to exit through the hole too, but he's so big that he'd just knock down the wall without a scratch on him

I believe that a face turn for Khali into a role like I described would be the perfect change for the guy. At this stage fans are fed up with him destroying their favourite wrestlers and they're fed up with Hornswoggle's segments. I believe that I have the answer to solve both of those problems

Double C

Double C wrote: »

Thats what the game is all about, giving an opinion and backing it up. You'll have to accept that people will disagree with you from time to time!

I have no problem that people will disagree with me, but saying that it wouldn't work because Shawn might be against it in real life?

I mean c'mon. What if Khali doesn't wana turn face. Its a game, not reality. I'm participating in a game of discussion, not running WWE.

Fozzy wrote: »

Looking up and down the WWE roster, everyone seems to be in a role that fits them currently, or they've recently made a turn and there'd be no point in turning them back. But for me, there is one man who I'd consider turning face. That man is The Great Khali

Khali has been a heel ever since he debuted. He's a natural heel: big, ugly, mean, strong and he can't speak English. He's feuded with most of the top faces in WWE, like Undertaker, Batista, Michaels, and of course Cena. Fans hated the guy at first because he was so awkward and clumsy and managed to pin the Undertaker with a weak looking kick, but during the build up to his feud with Kane at Wrestlemania, he started getting noticeable cheers. The fans were beginning to like the guy, and I think it would have been the perfect time for a face turn after WM, but he ended up in a feud with the company's biggest babyface (Cena) so there was no hope of him getting a good reaction then

Now though, I think that he's gotten a little stale. The two main champions are heels themselves and Khali has feuded with many of the challengers already. He's been doing some comedy segments with Hornswoggle and a few matches with Finlay. He's proven that he can excel in a comedy role, so what I would do is this:

Have Khali fire his translator. The guy is only holding Khali back and I'm convinced that he hasn't been translating Khali correctly, leading to a misrepresentation of what Khali is about. Team Khali up with Hornswoggle. This would enrage Vince. Vince obviously wants rid of his son so he'd send guys like Umaga and Mark Henry out to deal with him. But then Khali would save the little guy. This would endear him to the hearts of many WWE fans (almost like when Kane turned face and teamed with X-Pac, remember how effective that face turn was when everyone saw how the monster had feelings?)

I'd change Khali's character slightly too. Hornswoggle is clearly a fun-loving guy, he's always playing tricks on Coach and Regal. Have Khali join in. "The World's Largest Practical Joker". You've all heard Khali's laugh and how infectious it is. Remember that segment with Carlito chasing the midget into a painted-on hole in the wall? Remember how crap it was? Now imagine if it had ended with Khali coming into the room and laughing and pointing at Carlito knocked out on the floor. It could have saved the segment! You could have had Khali try to exit through the hole too, but he's so big that he'd just knock down the wall without a scratch on him

I believe that a face turn for Khali into a role like I described would be the perfect change for the guy. At this stage fans are fed up with him destroying their favourite wrestlers and they're fed up with Hornswoggle's segments. I believe that I have the answer to solve both of those problems

I disagree with this because it sounds like we'd be gradually turning the Great Khali into Kenzo Suzuki; The Sequel. And we all know how horrible that would be. Khali would indeed be funny, but the problem is that it would wear off after a few weeks and then people wouldn't buy into him as a monsterous heel anymore because we know he has feelings and a sense of humour.

Charlie

This is a pretty tough, but good question.

I'm gonna go for HBK, but for different reasons that have been given.

As we all know, HBK back in the 90's was a phenomenal heel, one of my all tie favourites. The character he portrayed was so successful, partially because it was a reflection of Shawn's actual personality, which is the key to all successful characters, heel or face.

Shawn though is no longer that person. He has changed his outlook on life dramatically, and the hell Shawn from '97 is likely never to be seen again.

However, Michaels is one of the best (if not the best) workers in the business. With his talents on the mic, and ability to sell a character, two of his strongest assets. I therefore believe that Michaels still has the ability to portray a great heel, just not the heel of '97.

So, how do we do it.

When I was first trying to decide on which superstar to select I was leaning towards HHH, with him betraying his best friend Shawn. However, this has been done before in '99 (when he was commish) and upon his return in '02.

This then got me thinking, a Michaels turn makes so much more sense. He has been betrayed by Hunter previously, and the reformation of DX has pushed Shawn's moral's to the limit.

Therefore, you set-up a scenario where there is one more (how many has there actually been) 1 night only DX reunion. the fans in the arena will be marking out for that. You have the pair doing all the usual DX stuff before and during the match. The both hit their respective finishers, and Hunter makes the pin. The crowd's going wild. The two of them then do the DX crotch chop routine to the fireworks, everything seems rosy. After the last chop, Hunter turns his back to gesture the fans, and then turns towards Shawn again. Just as he is turning towards Michaels, bam! he gets hit with sweet in music. The crowd is stunned, Michaels just stands there for a minute starring a Hunter. As he leaves the ring, they play the DX music (like they do at the end of all matches/when someone is living). As Michaels is leaving, he motions and mouths, cut the music, and walks back up the ramp in silence. Cut to finish.

Sorry if that seemed long.

On the next Raw, Michael's cuts a promo about why he did what he did.

-He cites that Hunter stole his limelight, he(HBK) was the innovator of DX, the original leader, and over the past few years, Hunter stole that from. This portrays Michaels jealousy of the position Hunter has been elevated to. (When Michaels left in '98 HHH was his lacky)

-But he says that Hunter can keep DX, he doesn't want any more to do with it. He angrily explains that he is changed man. He's no longer the immature sophmoric moron that the fans and Hunter want him to be. He claims that he is the greatest wrestler to grace a wwe ring, is in ring talent is second to none, and the fans have reduced him to a crotch choppin, joke making, douche. He's not standing for it any more.

This then sets up a mega feud between Michaels and HHH.

The reason that I believe that this works so well is aside form their history and calibre of matches there'd be, importantly, the heat Michael's will draw would be huge. I think everyone deep down sees HHH as a heel, and if he were to turn, he'd draw heat, but in the sense that he'd be the guy fans love to boo. However, Michaels is one of the very few wrestlers that every demographic of fan loves, from small children, to the internet fan. we love to see the guy triumph, we just love to love him (corny, I know). For him to betray us, and tell us that he's not the guy we all want him to be would really strike a nerve with most fans.

Fozzy

Deleted User wrote: »

I disagree with this because it sounds like we'd be gradually turning the Great Khali into Kenzo Suzuki; The Sequel. And we all know how horrible that would be. Khali would indeed be funny, but the problem is that it would wear off after a few weeks and then people wouldn't buy into him as a monsterous heel anymore because we know he has feelings and a sense of humour.

People still bought into Kane as a monster heel after he had teamed with X-Pac. But that's not the issue, we can worry about that when he becomes stale as a face. For the time being he'd have plenty to do before the humour wears off. He'd certainly be more entertaining than the midget segments are every week, which is why I think a Khali face turn would have a more positive effect on WWE than turning some of the other guys mentioned. Michaels, Punk, Jericho, Lashley, they're all doing fine as they are and I don't think that turning any of them would have as big an effect as a Khali face turn would have

There's endless possibilities for the guy before he'd get stale and I think he's got more charisma than Kenzo Suzuki ever had. You could have him challenge Jillian to singing contests, have Santino feud with Hornswoggle and have Khali go after Santino, Khali could save Austin from a beatdown sometime and drink a beer with him after, he could do guest commentary for Horswoggle's matches and tell jokes; I just don't see it wearing off after a few weeks

Fozzy

charlie mchugh wrote: »

For him to betray us, and tell us that he's not the guy we all want him to be would really strike a nerve with most fans.

What would be the difference here to when Austin turned heel in 2001? When Austin turned heel he betrayed the fans but the heel turn never really took off as the fans still loved the guy. HHH might be the face in the feud, but why would the fans support him over Shawn when, like you said, so many fans really care about the guy?

Vince135792003

Fozzy wrote: »

WWE than turning some of the other guys mentioned. Michaels, Punk, Jericho, Lashley, they're all doing fine as they are and I don't think that turning any of them would have as big an effect as a Khali face turn would have

I wouldn't say that Lashely is doing fine. He left injured as a guy who wasn't quite living up to the push he was given. When he comes back this month, (assuming he's staying) on Raw he will have been relegated to the number 6 babyface on Raw. Time for a change and with his absence it gives him a chance to start afresh.

Bounty Hunter

atm there are four posters (bubs101, Woooo232, Rjd2 & RichieLawlor) still to take part in Rd2 to those people heres a little heads up. You will have until around 4 tommorow to submit an answer as that will be the first time i will be able to get to my computer as i was just asked to sub-teacher a load of little WWE fans that i usually coach rugby to.

while posting ill just reiterate that if anyone reading this but not participating can think of any decent questions that could be used PM me if they are good ill use them.

Charlie

Fozzy wrote: »

What would be the difference here to when Austin turned heel in 2001? When Austin turned heel he betrayed the fans but the heel turn never really took off as the fans still loved the guy. HHH might be the face in the feud, but why would the fans support him over Shawn when, like you said, so many fans really care about the guy?

I think the Austin heel turn is relatively unique. He arguably was/is the greatest draw the business has seen. There was still plenty of mileage left in the S.O.B character, and Austin raisin hell on Raw and Smackdown was a staple of each of those shows. The fans were having a lot taken away from them when Austin turned heel. By virtue of Austin turning heel, he lost many of the aspects of his character that were its core, and as a result, both Raw and Smackdown lost alot of 'Austin moments' (beer trucks, the hell yeahs, flippin off Vince, bloin $hit up, stunners on 4X4 etc. etc.) This created a massive void, one which the fans were not ready for.

A Shawn heel turn imho, would be totally different. Michael's really isn't up too much at the moment. The physcology behind a Shawn turn and an Austin turn would be quite different. In many ways a Michaels turn makes sense (the reasons he would do it) whereas Austin's made little or no sense. Why would he team up with Vince after loathing the chap for 4 odd years?

In respect of the fans getting behind Hunter, they already do. But, I believe it would be more of fact of the fans despising Shawn for bailing on them, similar enough(but not as huge) as to the fans reaction to Hogan's nWo turn in '96. They were willing to get behind most wrestlers, who were now willing to step up to Hollywood Hogan.

RichieLawlor

Jeff Hardy.

Hardy is sooooooooooooooo over at the moment no,one could see a heel turn coming. Because of the fans opinion and passion for Jeff a Heel turn would go off the scale in terms of heat. and its never been done before!!.

We all seen a HHH, Jericho and Shawn heel turn, i think hardy could be explosive. And he can basically have a good match with anyone.

As for turning him, what better way than to smash HHH on tv, they seem to have built up a friendship, so with Jeff turning on trips claiming, even though he beat him, HHH is holding him back.(probably very believeable) setting up a Cena Hardy program which the fans would go wild for imo

Vince135792003

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Jeff Hardy.

Hardy is sooooooooooooooo over at the moment no,one could see a heel turn coming. Because of the fans opinion and passion for Jeff a Heel turn would go off the scale in terms of heat. and its never been done before!!.

Jeff Hardy is soooooooo over at the moment as a good guy which is the very reason why you shouldn't turn him.

The fans want to cheer Jeff Hardy, buy his t-shirts and do the clappy thing when his music plays.......so let them. When you have something that works, you run with it. You give the people what they want.

Plus the reason why we've never had a sustained, long term heel Jeff Hardy is because some people aren't meant for the role e.g. Ricky Steamboat. And I think Jeff falls into that category.

Rjd2

It has to be Cena for me. I know most people financially may think it is suicide but RAW has more than enough faces at the moment with Jeff Hardy, HH, HBK and the inevitable arrival of Batista at the next draft. When he returns put him in a title match with a face champion someone like HBK. Two weeks before the match himself and HBK could face a heel tag team and just when HBK has cleared house, the crowd are going ballistic, Cena can beat him down from behind. Cena then next week on RAW will come out to a chorus of boos can then turn on the fans and claim he never got the respect he deserves as a champion and that he has not forgotten that he was booed as a champion despite the fact he held the belt for a record length of time. Cena despite his wrestling excellence is born to play the cocky heel and I really don’t think the crowd would have a problem booing him the same way they did Austin. Remember the heel heat that The Rock got what he ripped Toronto apart? That’s the type of heat I could see Cena abusing the fans would get.

Charlie

Rjd2 wrote: »

It has to be Cena for me. I know most people financially may think it is suicide but RAW has more than enough faces at the moment with Jeff Hardy, HH, HBK and the inevitable arrival of Batista at the next draft. When he returns put him in a title match with a face champion someone like HBK. Two weeks before the match himself and HBK could face a heel tag team and just when HBK has cleared house, the crowd are going ballistic, Cena can beat him down from behind. Cena then next week on RAW will come out to a chorus of boos can then turn on the fans and claim he never got the respect he deserves as a champion and that he has not forgotten that he was booed as a champion despite the fact he held the belt for a record length of time. Cena despite his wrestling excellence is born to play the cocky heel and I really don’t think the crowd would have a problem booing him the same way they did Austin. Remember the heel heat that The Rock got what he ripped Toronto apart? That’s the type of heat I could see Cena abusing the fans would get.

As who alluded to yourself, turning Cena would be financial suicide, he is Mr. WWE at the moment. The reason that he held the belt for so long was that he was, not only a great draw, but a great company representative.

A turn would not only lose the WWE a pile cash, but they wouldn't have a face for the company any more. I can't see Jeff Hardy on Conan.

Further, I don't really think a Cena heel turn would work all that well. The demo. of the crowd that is into Cena the most is, by in large, kids and women. There are alot of the older males who boo the $hit out of Cena, and would probably be cheering him on should he turn heel, as he would be pissing on the section of the crowd (children and women) that they feel have disenfranchised them as a fan.

I think you have the same booing and cheering that you have at the moment, only in reverse.

The Sparrow

I've been thinking about this since yesterday and I have come to the conclusion that my answer to this question is... nobody.

Perhaps it is my lack of imagination but I can't come up with a compelling reason to turn anyone (well I argued to turn Cody Rhodes heel in round 1 and made my case for that so I don't want to repeat it.) To me there has to be a compelling reason for a heel or face turn and nobody on either roster seems to warrant a turn. So you end up picking somebody like Khali just cos he is not doing too much.

Also picks like HHH, HBK, Jeff Hardy and Cena are out in my eyes because at the moment they are both too over to turn heel imo and conversely the likes of Umaga, JBL and Edge are much better at being heels so why change them? I'm not sure if this will be viewed as a cop out but if I was in charge I wouldn't make any major turns until after Mania at least and then you can see where the cards fall. It is just tooo near to Mania to start switching things up at the top level. And if you turn lower level guys they will get lost in the road to wrestlemania shuffle.

Bubs101

I'm afraid that i have to drop out. Going away for a week on wednesday so I wouldn't be able to finish you guys off

Bounty Hunter

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ATH:Round 3
Q.if you could sign anyone currently not employed by WWE who would it be? Why would you choose this person over other options? and prehaps most importantly how would you introduce them into the WWE? i.e how would you have them debut?
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Question reccomended by flahavaj (and slightly tweaked for ATH purposes by me) who unfortunatley cannot participate this time round


KKV: like you and Charlie McHugh said HBK can play a great heel but it seems this time you forgot the how you would turn them part of the question.

In a debate type competition it can often be a good idea to go against thegrain and do what the rest arent so that your answer sticks out more, I believe in the last round only Fozzy chose to turn someone face.

Bounty Hunter

Bubs101 wrote: »

I'm afraid that i have to drop out. Going away for a week on wednesday so I wouldn't be able to finish you guys off

your departure is ATH's loss have a good week man, hope to see you in the games next incarnation.

Vince135792003

Bob Sapp.





It's hard to know where to begin with a guy like him. Sapp started in pro-wrestling but found Mega fame over in Japan fighting for K1 and Pride. He was a real life Godzilla. Currently he mixes MMA with some pro-wrestling over in Japan. Above all else, he is a bad ass showman that incidentally comes out to Ric Flairs music.

The observer has reported that Vince McMahon has tried many times to sign him. He was according to the Observer offered the Bobby Lashley role on ECW in late 2006.

I can see why he was offered the role. He essentially has the look of Booby Lashley, with 5000 times the charisma.

And that's what he brings to the table, charisma. I'm not gonna talk a whole lot about him other than really provide a few videos of him. I think by watching it most people get left with the opinion "That guy is a star. That guy has IT".

There's nobody in my mind that the WWE could sign up right now that has the potential to be a star, no super star like Sapp does. He's not perfect but he has what you can't teach (star quality).

And how would I debut him? I'd completely use the Goldberg model, putting him on the Smackdown brand. He comes in. He beats a guy in 2 minutes. He does the same thing next week and the week after and so on.

And you build him and build him and build him till there's only 1 left standing in his way.....Undertaker. It's guaranteed mega money.

Also I wouldn't even give him a direction on whether to be face or heel. I'd just let Bob Sapp be the Bob Sapp of Japan. And he'd get over huge, either way.

You wouldn't be getting a guy to build your company around for the next 10 years but you would be getting a guy that could make a hell of a splash for quite a while.

1 minute of these videos should give you an idea of what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdaoFKa2bzc&feature=related
http://www.videovat.com/videos/1936/bob-sapp-k1-boxing-highlights.aspx

Here's another. 4 and a half minutes in, Sapp appears. The crowd goes nuts:

http://www.vsocial.com/video/?d=173842

Double C

Rumours about Sapp signing with the WWE have resurfaced again, with him doing shows for the WWE in Japan. There's a possibility of him joining full time after that.

To be honest, I wouldn't be too mad to see it personally. I'm just not a fan of huge muscle bound guys. It would be cool to see him in for a once off or something similar, but I reckon I'd get bored of him pretty quickly.

I think he would be seen as just another Lashley and if he did come in, where would that leave Lashley? I guess they could do something with the two of them, but again, it wouldn't interest me in the slightest. I'm sure it would appeal to many others and make money which I guess is the main thing, but still, me no likey!

Also charisma-wise, anybody with the Ric Flair music and a feather boa is going to be doing pretty well! I have only ever seen tht youtube clip of him so its not much to go on. I'd like to see an interview with him. In WWE for a guy like him promos would mean a lot more than his matches, or size for that matter. Besides, with a guy like Khali on the roster, I don't think he would get over on his size alone.

I'll have to think about this questin for a while, I'll post my answer later.

Vince135792003

Double C wrote: »

Rumours about Sapp signing with the WWE have resurfaced again, with him doing shows for the WWE in Japan. There's a possibility of him joining full time after that.

To be honest, I wouldn't be too mad to see it personally. I'm just not a fan of huge muscle bound guys. It would be cool to see him in for a once off or something similar, but I reckon I'd get bored of him pretty quickly.

I think he would be seen as just another Lashley and if he did come in, where would that leave Lashley? I guess they could do something with the two of them, but again, it wouldn't interest me in the slightest. I'm sure it would appeal to many others and make money which I guess is the main thing, but still, me no likey!

Also charisma-wise, anybody with the Ric Flair music and a feather boa is going to be doing pretty well! I have only ever seen tht youtube clip of him so its not much to go on. I'd like to see an interview with him. In WWE for a guy like him promos would mean a lot more than his matches, or size for that matter. Besides, with a guy like Khali on the roster, I don't think he would get over on his size alone.

I'll have to think about this questin for a while, I'll post my answer later.

Obviously his physique is a big part of what makes him promotable but it's not the only thing or the most important aspect about him. The guy has bucket loads of charisma which is why I picked him. Lots of people have great physiques (Bobby Lashley, the Renegade as examples) but there's an X factor to Bob Sapp that comes across every time I see him.

And charisma is something you can't teach. Your either born with it or your not and he was at the top of the queue when they were it giving out when he was born! I hope people take the time to watch the videos (for their entertainment alone) but also to see what a unique guy he is.

Like I said before, he's not perfect but I think he's got the vital raw materials (the look, charisma, personality, athletic backround) to make it big in the WWE.

Watch all the 3 videos I provided on Saap too, especially video 2 were he talks a bit and you see his great facial expressions. He was born for "sports entertainment" and with a bit of schooling and some careful booking, the guy is a proven money train.

Here's a bit from an article on Dave Meltzer about him, showing what a big deal he was in Japan a few years ago for those that have never heard of him:

On New Year's Eve of 2003, 54 million people, or nearly half the population of the country, tuned in for three minutes to see him kickbox on New Year's Eve against early 90s sumo legend Akebono.

Double C

OK I'm sold on the guy! That second clip with Bombtrack playing over it is great.

He would be great using that line the boxer in Police Squad uses "roses are red, violets are blue, sugar is sweet...AND I'M GONNA BREAK YOUR FACE!!"