.223 Not allowed here.

clivej

I would seem that the super here in Kilkenny City will not sign for any .223 or swift rifles. So with this in mind what is the next best rifle calibre to get? Will be used for hunting foxes and lamping.
Keep in mind that ammo for the rifle must be readly available and easy to buy.

meathstevie

You've two options realy. Contest his decision in court or apply for either a .22 hornet or a .243 i.e. one step down or one step up. He'll probably be looking for a deer licence for a .243. Having said that a .22 hornet will do the job on foxes if you don't push the range out too far.

johngalway

.22-250

243 will need a deer licence and .22Hornet won't give you near the same range should you need it, plus expensive ammo I believe?

clivej

I was talking to my friend over the holidays who owns a .223 and was asked by the FO if he would "like to hand up his .223" he did not like to he said. Friend also told me that there are 13 out-standing cases pending court outcomes for other people waiting for .223 liciences. As taken up by the National Irish Rifle Association ( if that is the correct naming for the national assocition).

bitemybanger

So what this thid mean,? that all 223s are going to be restricted or banned

Jonty

How does the super know its a .22 swift being applied for? Does the shop put this down on the receipt. If they were to put .22 cal only on receipt he wouldn't know. Its not breaking the law, its being economical with facts.

If you look on anybody's FAC for a swift it just says .220 inches, same as one for a 22 magnun, lr, or hornet.;)

At the end of the day a swift is still .22 calibre. .22/250 is different, its the legal minimum stalking calibre.

bitemybanger

as far as i know the shop has t write it on the bill of sale weather its a swift/hornet/magnum...,

Jonty

The last rifle purchased in my house was a 17hmr, and all that went on the bill of sale was .17. We were never questioned about whether it was HMR or REM. It still only says 17 on FAC.

If that was the case nobody would get a license for a .22 magnum because of the guards fear of a sniper using a "magnum" rifle

All I'm saying is don't volunteer information unless asked, there's nothing wrong with that.;)

.243

why not go for a .204,its faster than a .223,ammo is a little bit dearer but its readily available (unfortunatly because its a fairly new round alot of people are reluctant to buy it,the exact same thing happened when the .17hmr first came into this country a cpl of years ago,they said it would never take over the .22mag,but look at it now).

tikkamark

.243 wrote: »

why not go for a .204,its faster than a .223.

That would be my thinking or a .17remington i have a .223 myself great round for foxes never had any trouble licencing itSeems your super is making up his own laws thats ridiculous:mad:

cavan shooter

I am torn between 204 Ruger or 222 rem. The 204 is a fast round matches the 223 on paper. The dealer I normally goes too says I shouldn't touch as it is not ppoular (Funny he has 12 223 rifles). I read its on the way up in the uk and the states. The dearest I've seen 204 Hornady is 32€ for 20, yet I'v also seen Hornady for 24€. 222 rem is available for 24€ on average.

I looked at a swift, but I keep coming back to 204 or 222 rem.

newby.204

cavan shooter wrote: »

I am torn between 204 Ruger or 222 rem. The 204 is a fast round matches the 223 on paper. The dealer I normally goes too says I shouldn't touch as it is not ppoular (Funny he has 12 223 rifles). I read its on the way up in the uk and the states. The dearest I've seen 204 Hornady is 32€ for 20, yet I'v also seen Hornady for 24€. 222 rem is available for 24€ on average.

I looked at a swift, but I keep coming back to 204 or 222 rem.

he says you shouldn touch .223 or .204??

cavan shooter

204, sorry not clear

newby.204

any particular reason why?

clivej

clivej wrote: »

I would seem that the Superintendent here in Kilkenny City will not sign for any .223 or swift rifles. So with this in mind what is the next best rifle calibre to get? Will be used for hunting foxes and lamping.
Keep in mind that ammo for the rifle must be readly available and easy to buy.

As I said at the start the super won't sign for a .223 or swift. I think he saw a rifle that took 20 .223 rounds at an expo somewhere and got afraid of them.
Could this be a way around this problem for me........
My local dealer has a secondhand cz 527 .223. Now if I could get the present owner to add me on to his licience and then a little later on he could delete himself (the present owner) from that licience. Is this POSSIBLE? Would that be a work around?? The present owner may not be in the Kilkenny area and have a different Super. Must check this out on Friday.

newby.204

its not ideal but theres always .17 rem, .17 rem fireball( not too sure on whether that round is "out there" yet here!!), or .222?? like i said its not ideal and obviously you want a .223!

foxshooter243

Go buy your rifle of choice and then fight your corner,I had the same
attitude displayed one time and stood my ground, if everyone pussyfoots
around an unfair application of firearms licencing laws we will be back to
slingshots in no time...if your application is fair and bona fide then lets
not sit back and leave all the struggle to f.l.a.g, theres no reason one
guy can shoot with a 223 ,220 swift , and the next guy cant......

rrpc

+1 to foxshooter.

Do not stand for Supers making up the law, you can take the case to the district court and now it seems you have the right to appeal any district court decisions to the circuit court.

In addition, if anyone gets a refusal, get it in writing and pass it on to the SSAI or the NARGC. These bodies can't help you if they don't know about it, and refusals in writing will be required to take a court case.

There can be absolutely no good reason to refuse a .223, it's a standard calibre for shooting foxes and probably the best one IMO. If people allow this to continue, they are contributing to the situation.

Rovi

clivej wrote: »

My local dealer has a secondhand cz 527 .223. Now if I could get the present owner to add me on to his licience and then a little later on he could delete himself (the present owner) from that licience. Is this POSSIBLE? Would that be a work around?? The present owner may not be in the Kilkenny area and have a different Super. Must check this out on Friday.

I'm open to correction, but I don't think that's how it works.
As far as I know, to get yourself licensed on someone else's gun, you apply to your own local Gardai the same as if you were purchasing the firearm yourself.

Anyone know better/different?

sixpointfive

Yes that is correct, i have applied to be a named driver on my brothers 223 and my FO told me that ten people can licence the same gun but you have to apply at your own station, we live in different districts so it will be interesting to see how this pans out, my angle on it is whats the point in me buying another rifle when i have a 22 rimfire and a 6.5 fullbore but need a foxing rifle putting another centerfire into circulation when my bro has one that he rarely uses and when he does its hunting with me so it should be sensible that i get this with no problems, had no bother with pistol so fingers crossed.

kowloon

So do they collect money only from the owner or from everyone?

foxshooter243

kowloon wrote: »

So do they collect money only from the owner or from everyone?

Both guys will pay a licence
fee each, if ten men licenced the one rifle then ten seperate licence fees.....

clivej

It's looking like a .22 Hornet will be an easy'er option to get than the .223. I'm leaning more to geting the Hornet all the time and cut out all this crap of trying to get a .223 licience in Kilkenny. I have lost over €1500 of free range chickens to foxes over the last few months and I can't afford my few free range pregnant pigs to go the same way.

Trojan911

clivej wrote: »

As I said at the start the super won't sign for a .223 or swift. I think he saw a rifle that took 20 .223 rounds at an expo somewhere and got afraid of them.

Why go to all the hassle of that. You can own a .223 in this country legally. My opinion would be to buy the .223 & apply for the licence as per norm.

Challenge the Supers decision, the more the merrier. Otherwise you are letting them dictate to us what we can & can't have, when we are perfectly entitled to have that item (unless there is something you are not telling us here?).

clivej

Trojan911 wrote: »

Why go to all the hassle of that. You can own a .223 in this country legally. My opinion would be to buy the .223 & apply for the licence as per norm.

Challenge the Supers decision, the more the merrier. Otherwise you are letting them dictate to us what we can & can't have, when we are perfectly entitled to have that item (unless there is something you are not telling us here?).

Thats all OK about "Challenge the Supers decision" but what about the cost in EURO (I'm not made of €€€). My friend who has a .223 said to do that but to get a solicitor form outside of Kilkenny to act for me, would a solicitor from KK act against the local Super? Again if I go down this road how long does it take before I get a licience, months or years, and the cost/time of it all.
I think the best way is going to be join 1 or 2 local gun clubs, get a Hornet, and try again for a .223 next year.

"(unless there is something you are not telling us here?)"
NO.... I'm 56 retired and have comlpeted a BSc @ college and started on another 4 year college BSc course. Don't have any convictions unless "no lights on my bike" from 30 years ago counts (£5 fine). Owned licienced shotguns and .22 air rifles and pistols in the UK 37 years ago.

Trojan911

clivej wrote: »

would a solicitor from KK act against the local Super?

I would expect a solicitor to act in accordance with your instructions. Have you tried the N.A.R.G.C. or are you a member?

clivej

I'm not a member of any club or organization yet. What I'm trying to do is get as much info and feedback from here and other local rifle owners before spending the dosh/money on anything. Just testing the water so to speak. This forum has provided me with many ideas and I talk to local rifle owners as well.
It would seem that I will have to pay out quite a lot even before I can get a .223.

1. Join local gun clubs €80/100 each and the Midland range €500.
2. Deposit on a CZ 527 .223.
3. Join the SSAI or the NARGC.
4. Hire a solicitor to "Challenge the Supers decision" + his costs.
5. Circuit Court costs.
6. Now NO dosh left to buy the CZ.

Add it all up and it makes the Hornet look like a good deal!

rrpc

clivej wrote: »

I'm not a member of any club or organization yet. What I'm trying to do is get as much info and feedback from here and other local rifle owners before spending the dosh/money on anything. Just testing the water so to speak. This forum has provided me with many ideas and I talk to local rifle owners as well.
It would seem that I will have to pay out quite a lot even before I can get a .223.

1. Join local gun clubs €80/100 each and the Midland range €500.

Don't have to be a member of a club to own a .223

2. Deposit on a CZ 527 .223.
3. Join the SSAI or the NARGC.

NARGC membership is cheap

4. Hire a solicitor to "Challenge the Supers decision" + his costs.
5. Circuit Court costs.

Don't need a solicitor for district court. You'll only need one to appeal to circuit court if decision goes against you, so you've no outlay there.

6. Now NO dosh left to buy the CZ.

Add it all up and it makes the Hornet look like a good deal!

NARGC will take your case for you if you're a member, so you shouldn't have any outlay in that respect anyway. NARGC have a fighting fund of millions!

foxshooter243

I had a problem in trying to licence a second rifle ,the fao reckoned that
since i had 2 shotguns and a 220 swift that i had no need to licence a further rifle-he threw every obstacle in my path he could even down to sending out the local crime prevention officer to check on my security arrangements for storing 4 guns . when the c.p.o landed on my doorstep with half an hours prior notice and said that he was here to inspect my security i duly informed him that he did no have a right to check anything in my home as the family home is inviolate under irish law. I told him i would invite him in to inspect my gun cabinet which was securely fastened in a hidden area of the house. he then took a look at my gun cabinet and
duly informed me that it was not" up to spec ".I then asked him to furnish me with the "specs" as i told him that as there were no laid down guidelines for gun safes in ireland that i took it upon myself to use the british guidelines as a basis for my gun storage.He then said "AH but its not what im looking for, im looking for you to have a much bigger safe"
the safe i had fitted held 4 guns and there were only 3 in it-so after i
asked him to give his requirement to me in writing he left, he took a
photograph of the safe with him but left no guidelines.6 weeks later i contacted the station and was met by a stonewall again, i then told tha fao that i did not wish to deal with him any further and could i arrange to talk directly with the super-after much heehawing about i got an appointment with the station inspector-i wrote down my reasons for needing a second rifle ,and why the first rifle did not suit every type of shooting i was doing etc etc -i provided him with this and the problem was solved...he signed off on the application there and then........so my advice is this ,join your gun club ,one only ,apply for your permit,put everything on paper , photocopy your application and be determined, the nargc should be contacted if things are not going your way-but if you grit your teeth and stay cool you should win out in the end. Good luck

Saddlebags

rrpc wrote: »

+1 to foxshooter.

Do not stand for Supers making up the law, you can take the case to the district court and now it seems you have the right to appeal any district court decisions to the circuit court.

In addition, if anyone gets a refusal, get it in writing and pass it on to the SSAI or the NARGC. These bodies can't help you if they don't know about it, and refusals in writing will be required to take a court case.

There can be absolutely no good reason to refuse a .223, it's a standard calibre for shooting foxes and probably the best one IMO. If people allow this to continue, they are contributing to the situation.

Hear Hear !! Yer man in KK is one of the worst in the country,AFAIK has yet to grant any F/Bore pistol. Go buy what you want and then see him in court.

foxshooter243

Saddlebags wrote: »

Hear Hear !! Yer man in KK is one of the worst in the country,AFAIK has yet to grant any F/Bore pistol. Go buy what you want and then see him in court.

too true ,we need to help him through the conversion process

clivej

foxshooter243 wrote: »

........so my advice is this ,join your gun club ,one only ,apply for your permit,put everything on paper , photocopy your application and be determined, the nargc should be contacted if things are not going your way-but if you grit your teeth and stay cool you should win out in the end. Good luck

Thanks Foxshooter you are the first to tell me that it is possible to get through all this and get a .223 licience. Today I will make enquiries about joining a local gun club and the NARGC.
As a side note as this will be my first application for any gun licience in Ireland, I had shotgun licience in the UK, is asking for a .223 licience over the top or sould I just go for it?

foxshooter243

clivej wrote: »

Thanks Foxshooter you are the first to tell me that it is possible to get through all this and get a .223 licience. Today I will make enquiries about joining a local gun club, Kilkenny and District, and the NARGC.
As a side note as this will be my first application for any gun licience in Ireland, I had shotgun licience in the UK, is asking for a .223 licience over the top or sould I just go for it?

No its not over the top its quite normal to apply for any calibre as your first rifle,as an example a young fella in our club applied for a 223 and got it without a problem another young fella got his deer permit sorted and got a 243 for his first licence another guy traded a .177 air rifle in and got a 22-250 , my advice is go for it- i acted as secretary for a gun club for a number of years and met a lot of people who were refused gun applications for no reason and after we prepared a well structured application and sent it directly to the superintendant, not the fao after
all the super is there to delegate, the problems suddenly disappeared.

Trojan911

clivej wrote: »

As a side note as this will be my first application for any gun licience in Ireland, I had shotgun licience in the UK

Welcome to the Irish way of doing things. You will find Ireland very backward in some situations.

I also had handguns when I lived in the UK prior to Sec1 licence revokation nationwide. What will also help you on you way is to contact your local UK station where you lived & try obtain a note from the Firearms Officer you dealt with saying you had been licenced in the UK.

You more than likely will be UK vetted for any pre/cons etc. You can download the form here, but check first with the FO. Vetting costs £10stg & can take up to forty days. Again, you may or may not need to do the above.

I got the note from my UK local FO officer and the locals here did their own checks. That was five years ago. I recently got a spsv licence & had to go through the vetting proceedure as described above.

All the best...

johngalway

My local station would be Clifden who seem fairly sensible regarding firearms. I held a shotgun for a few months before applying for my .223. I got it no hassle, had pretty much the same situation as yourself Clive except we were losing lambs. The land I shoot on is either my own, my dads or neighbours where I have permission. Not a member of any club.

clivej

Trojan911 wrote: »

Welcome to the Irish way of doing things. You will find Ireland very backward in some situations.

Thanks Trogen. I'm well used to the "Irish way of doing things" been living here over 34 years now, best little place in the world . I printed off the form for the UK Data Pro. Act. and will get that sent away. Only conviction I had in UK was 'taking vehicle without owners consent' 38 years ago clean nose since. There must be some sort of Statute of Limitations on that conviction surely? Note on the UK Data Pro Act form says "Retention period: 6 years".
Anyway I have the gun club membership sorted this morning and they are member of NARGC as well. I also have 3 farmers permission for shooting on their lands. Now waiting on the CZ 527 LUX .223 serial number to be phoned over, it's being imported from the UK.

Trojan911

clivej wrote: »

I printed off the form for the UK Data Pro. Act. and will get that sent away.

The wait can be frustrating but it is worth it as this form can be used for many other applications you may go for. It is literally a clean bill of health.

clivej wrote: »

Only conviction I had in UK was 'taking vehicle without owners consent' 38 years ago clean nose since. There must be some sort of Statute of Limitations on that conviction surely? Note on the UK Data Pro Act form says "Retention period: 6 years".

Yes, pretty sure that won't apply, especially as you were firearms licenced in the UK. It's your decision if you are going to declare it or not. "TWOC'ing" is not the crime of the century, I note you are not a Londoner, it's known as TDA down there (Take & Drive Away ) .

clivej wrote: »

Anyway I have the gun club membership sorted this morning and they are member of NARGC as well. I also have 3 farmers permission for shooting on their lands. Now waiting on the CZ 527 LUX .223 serial number to be phoned over, it's being imported from the UK.

You are well on the way then... Here's a snap of mine.... Keep us updated...

Cheers...

clivej

Don't you just LOVE this forum.
Trojen is that a CZ 527 LUX? Does it have a 1-12 or 1-9 twist rate?
Good looking gun or WOT

Trojan911

clivej wrote: »

Don't you just LOVE this forum.
Trojen is that a CZ 527 LUX? Does it have a 1-12 or 1-9 twist rate?
Good looking gun or WOT

Think it is a Lux with a 1:12 twist rate. Very accurate. I'm well pleased with it.

bitemybanger

for all you guys worried about not being granted a 223 licence for not being a member of a gun club.
I am not and have never been a member of any type of gun club,
i started shooting at 17 with my first shotgun obtaning permissions from various farmers. A year later i aplied for my rifle licence(Brno 22lr) and was granted without any questions, just recently i got a 223 and brought my 22lr licence to the station, altough the sup seemed to be a bit of a di(k he asked what i was using it for and changed it straight over, no mention of clubs or lands. just go for it, see what happens

cavan shooter

The advantage of the gun club is the Insurance (NARGC) fairly good, I am a member of three, oh and the social side as well

E. Fudd

Do you have to be a member of the dreaded gun club in order to be a member of the NARGC?
Reason I say dreaded is that like many many others on here, the local gun club is a closed shop, Game clubs, not target clubs.

rrpc

bitemybanger wrote: »

for all you guys worried about not being granted a 223 licence for not being a member of a gun club.
I am not and have never been a member of any type of gun club,
i started shooting at 17 with my first shotgun obtaning permissions from various farmers. A year later i aplied for my rifle licence(Brno 22lr) and was granted without any questions, just recently i got a 223 and brought my 22lr licence to the station, altough the sup seemed to be a bit of a di(k he asked what i was using it for and changed it straight over, no mention of clubs or lands. just go for it, see what happens

I don't think the discussion was about getting licences but about getting the NARGC to support a court case.

foxshooter243

bitemybanger wrote: »

for all you guys worried about not being granted a 223 licence for not being a member of a gun club.
I am not and have never been a member of any type of gun club,
i started shooting at 17 with my first shotgun obtaning permissions from various farmers. A year later i aplied for my rifle licence(Brno 22lr) and was granted without any questions, just recently i got a 223 and brought my 22lr licence to the station, altough the sup seemed to be a bit of a di(k he asked what i was using it for and changed it straight over, no mention of clubs or lands. just go for it, see what happens

in my humble opinion you are not doing yourself or the decent guys that
gave you permission to shoot any favours by shooting on their lands without insurance-i stand corrected if you have obtained insurance by some other means, but the reason most of us join a club is to have insurance to primarily protect the guy on whose land we shoot

newby.204

as far as i know you can get insurance from the irish countryside alliance without being a member of a gun club!!

foxshooter243

newby.204 wrote: »

as far as i know you can get insurance from the irish countryside alliance without being a member of a gun club!!

i have never met a person who obtained a farmers permission to shoot,
go and insure themselves-and i have had a lot of dealings with the shooting fraternity in 30 years-in my experience those that obtained farmers permissions ,done so for ecomomic reasons-, it may be the case in some areas that guys couldnt get into a gun club and had to go down the road of obtaining permissions-that i understand-but also fail to understand why the gun club never let them join in the first place

There seems to be something amiss in the thinking of gun clubs in this country-whereby some clubs operate a closed door policy with people who are entitled to join the club as they live within the parochial boundary, but yet find themselves outside lookin in

Mellor

In my area, is basically down to not enough land for all members, (west dublin, lost alot of land over last 30 years)
the club currently hasn't enough for half the current members,
the only reason i got in was because of family history in the club

foxshooter243

Mellor wrote: »

In my area, is basically down to not enough land for all members, (west dublin, lost alot of land over last 30 years)
the club currently hasn't enough for half the current members,
the only reason i got in was because of family history in the club

I am a member of 2 gun clubs and a wildfowling club, i also fish a river which is club controlled, i have heard the argument that each of these
clubs have reached saturation level; the club has ran out of space-bollox
90 per cent of gun clubs have non active members- i know our club does.
the majority of people in the gun clubs in ireland are only there because they think they have to be.......

bitemybanger

newby.204 wrote: »

as far as i know you can get insurance from the irish countryside alliance without being a member of a gun club!!

thats exatly what i did, i met them at the angling expo in swords 4 years ago and they were offering a great deal, it works out at round 38 yoyos per year.

Trojan911

foxshooter243 wrote: »

90 per cent of gun clubs have non active members- i know our club does.the majority of people in the gun clubs in ireland are only there because they think they have to be

Spot on. The last AGM I was at, it was acknowledged that people were joining just to get the membership so it would make their applications easier.

We were also informed by the club secretary that all licensed firearms holders now had to belong to a gun club before the issuing of a licence. Whether this is local policy or nationwide, I don't know.

When I first came back to Ireland, all I was doing was shooting a .22lr on farmers land with their permission.

It was only about two years ago the local Sgt suggested I join the local gun club as it would make things easier for both of us. In fairness to my local Super, he has never given me any grief at all. What I've asked for I've been granted firearms wise, a CZ 452 .22lr, CZ 527 .223 and a Steoger semi auto shotgun.

rrpc

Trojan911 wrote: »

Spot on. The last AGM I was at, it was acknowledged that people were joining just to get the membership so it would make their applications easier.

We were also informed by the club secretary that all licensed firearms holders now had to belong to a gun club before the issuing of a licence. Whether this is local policy or nationwide, I don't know.

Somebody's confusing gun clubs with target shooting clubs. The only club restriction on licences is for pistols: you must be a member of a target shooting club to get a pistol licence, you may get a rifle licence based on membership of a target shooting club, but you don't have to if you have hunting permission from two landowners. There is no such restriction on shotguns.

When I first came back to Ireland, all I was doing was shooting a .22lr on farmers land with their permission.

perfectly legal and above board.

It was only about two years ago the local Sgt suggested I join the local gun club as it would make things easier for both of us. In fairness to my local Super, he has never given me any grief at all. What I've asked for I've been granted firearms wise, a CZ 452 .22lr, CZ 527 .223 and a Steoger semi auto shotgun.

All hunting firearms and as such don't necessitate membership of anything.