Inert Ammo.

bullets

Hi all,

This has probably been asked countless times before, I did not
see anything about it in the stickies.
Whats the story with regards to collecting buying inert ammo and brass
over the Internet and getting it shipped here ?

I have some inert collectors ammo I want to Purchase from Scotland
and possible some used artillary brass from England. WW1 WWII Falklands,
Nothern Ireland and some Modern stuff. I am also interested in starting
to collect trench art.

Can I buy inert goods legally without any permission etc from the Gardai
or do I need some form or Permission from my Local Gardai Station ??

As a teenager I used to goto every antique fair and army store buying
brass and any inert ammo that was for sale. I want to start collecting it again.
it was always for sale and you can still get some in army surplus stores.
I was assuming that it was Perfectly legal ........ until.......
I heard a story of someone who was taken to court over some brass.

Other people have mentioned that the brass may need to have holes drilled in the sides
to show they are not live or cannot be used but I have no disire to do this if I am
collecting old stuff or lots of small stuff. I know some drill rounds have this done to them
so maybe thats where that story came from.

PS. I would love to know if there are any IRISH online stores where
I can buy militaria online and pay and get it posted to me. As I am not
a car owner and dont drive I buy nearly everything from the web.

~B

Dr Strange

Hi bullets,

that's a good question. I am not a collector of inert ammo so I am not sure about the legal issues. I know there are no issues regarding this in other EU countries as all inert ammo can be collected there without licence. Hopefully, someone here who also collects can answer that question for you. If everything else fails I would contact the local Super and ask him/her about it explaining that it would not be feasable to apply for a licence for each single inert ammo casing.

I know some people got inert artillery shells from WWI and WWII.

As for trench art there are some nice pieces out there and again I would consider a licence for each piece not feasable unless someone introduces a collectors licence covering all aspects of militaria collecting in which case you would only need to apply once for your collectors licence and that would be it.

I am not aware of Irish militaria shops. I am in the same situation you are in, I buy all my militaria online.

Best,
Preusse

bullets

Cheers for the info.

I've always had lots of brass since I was a kid/teenager but not really
had much inert ammo with actual bullet heads on the empty casings.
For small stuff I wanted to make a framed display of inert ammo. I have some
already but wanted to get more.

Was gonna buy the small stuff from here:
http://www.airsoftscotland.com/acatalog/Deactivated_Weapons_and_Inert_Goods.html

And there was a nice big shell here as well as some bigger modern inert stuff:
http://www.airsoftadventure.co.uk/ishop/1066/shopscr49.html
http://www.airsoftadventure.co.uk/ishop/1066/shopscr436.html

I would love a few dummy grenades but have always been afraid to order
some in case they got stopped in customs and they caused some sort of panic or alarm that would result in the gardai coming knocking on my door.

As a firearms owner I feel I need to be careful to make sure I abide by the
law and dont do anything that may jeopardize the pleasure I get from shooting. (targets/clays only, I dont hunt)

In the future I would love to get a Deactivated FN-FAL preferably
getting it in Ireland rather than having to goto the trouble of importing one.
I hear if they are sold in Ireland you dont need a Licence or Permission from the local Super but if you are importing one into the country you will need
a letter of permission from the Super and an article 7?

Have a real interest in Irish Uniforms/insignia/patches etc too so
slowly but surely will try collect some of that too.

~B

Dr Strange

You are quite right, I am the same with my firearms licences. That's why the local Super knows that I am also into militaria collecting and I never have a problem with the Article 7. It isn;t actualy a big deal getting it for deacts. They just like to see the rifle when it arrives (probably the firearms officer calling out to you). Even when buying within Ireland just make sure the correct deactivation procedures have been carried out. I know that even old Spanish blunderbuss decorations that have been bought as wall decorations had been sent to the Technical Bureau to make sure they don't work anymore.

Only because someone sells it to you as deactivated doesn't necessarily make it legal to possess. That's why I would only buy from known dealers in Ireland or gunsmiths who carried out and/or certified the deactivation.

When buying within Ireland there is no need for a permission once the deactivation is proper. However, as you said before, as a firearms licence holder I also make sure that my local station/Super knows what type and how many deacts I have.

bullets

Preusse wrote: »

That's why I would only buy from known dealers in Ireland or gunsmiths who carried out and/or certified the deactivation.

I am kinda veering off topic a bit sorry.....

I have not seen any gun dealer in Ireland that sell de-acts
so would be interested to hear if there are any that do this
as well as selling functional stuff.

Whats the most uptodate deactivation procedures for Ireland ?
Do all the internals need to be welded together ?

I want to be able to field strip and assemble anything
I would buy if possible.

I know that if you already have an older de-act that you can keep it
but as far as I read someplace (cant remember where) things have changed
and some of the german suppliers of de-acts got spooked because of the
recent changes to UK laws and they started weliding things good-o to
de-acts.

Recently at a Militaria display I came across a Gustaf SMG, an FN-SLR
and a Bren MKIII.

The Bren you could cock and dry fire, but the FN and the Gustaf appeared
to have all the internals Welded together.

I am a huge fan of the FAL. At huge effort and torment I could import and
licence a functional one that could fire but I am not too pushed about that.
too much hassle and expense.
I already have an Airsoft replica/toy/marker of an FAL which is great and fun.

What I ideally want is the Real Thing! deactivated, but be able to field strip
it and examine the internals to re-live my FCA days!.

~B

Dr Strange

Yes, some of the German traders got spooked alright and started to do that but some have also reverted back to the normal deactivation.
For pistols they now weld the hammer in the cocked position and slit the barrel which is terrible. For rifles they drill 6 calibre sized holes into the barrel (usually on the underside and covered by the wooden stock) weld a steel pin into the barrel, cut the breech at 45 degrees angle and weld shut the spot where the firing pin was. That is acceptable for a collector as you can still dry fire the rifle and strip it.
For submachine guns they drill 6 calibre sized holes into the barrel, weld a steel pin into the barrel, cut the breech at 45 degrees angle, weld shut the spot where the firing pin was and in some cases spot weld the barrel so it cannot be changed. These are acceptable as you can strip and dry fire them.

I do believe that the minimum deactivation procedures that should be carried out are:
- 6 calibre sized holes on the under side of the barrel
- steel pin or pins welded into the barrel
- breech block cut at 45 degreesangle with spot weld where the firing pin was

To a lesser extend I would say spot-weld the barrel depending on the submachine gun used. I wouldn't do it for WWI and WWII period submachine guns but maybe for anything after 1945.

I don't think you will have a problem finding an old-spec FN FAL. Probably the best way to go is to talk to your Super or firearms officer about your hobby and that you intend to buy a deact and may need an article 7 in future. See what they say, they shouldn't really refuse it and after that you can watch out for a good FN on the net without having to fear any hassle later if you wish to buy it. That's how I would do it.

sidneyreilly

Preusse wrote: »

When buying within Ireland there is no need for a permission once the deactivation

Hi Preusse, I understood a letter of authorisation was required in any event?

[GA] Authorisation to district hold defective firearm without firearm certificate. 6.—(1) The superintendent of the Garda Síochána of a district may grant an authorisation in writing to a person resident in the district not being a person disentitled under the Firearms Acts, 1925 to 1990 to hold a firearm certificate, to have in his possession, without a firearm certificate, a firearm where he is satisfied that the firearm would not be a firearm but for section 4 (1) (f) and that the person has a good reason for wishing to keep it and may be permitted to do so without danger to the public safety or the peace.

[GA] (2) The superintendent of the district where the holder of an authorisation under this section resides may, at any time, attach to the authorisation any conditions, whether as regards safe custody or otherwise, which he considers necessary and may at any time revoke the authorisation.


To Bullets original point: Unfortunatly an empty shell is clased as a component of a firearm and thus subject to authorisation, I'm sure a letter from you super would do. (trust me on this, I know the poor chap who ended up in court over empty's, it was of course fired out as being silly, but it took two harrowing years and left him without his firearms until it was all over)

Dr Strange

sidneyreilly wrote: »

Hi Preusse, I understood a letter of authorisation was required in any event?

[GA] Authorisation to district hold defective firearm without firearm certificate. 6.—(1) The superintendent of the Garda Síochána of a district may grant an authorisation in writing to a person resident in the district not being a person disentitled under the Firearms Acts, 1925 to 1990 to hold a firearm certificate, to have in his possession, without a firearm certificate, a firearm where he is satisfied that the firearm would not be a firearm but for section 4 (1) (f) and that the person has a good reason for wishing to keep it and may be permitted to do so without danger to the public safety or the peace.

[GA] (2) The superintendent of the district where the holder of an authorisation under this section resides may, at any time, attach to the authorisation any conditions, whether as regards safe custody or otherwise, which he considers necessary and may at any time revoke the authorisation.


To Bullets original point: Unfortunatly an empty shell is clased as a component of a firearm and thus subject to authorisation, I'm sure a letter from you super would do. (trust me on this, I know the poor chap who ended up in court over empty's, it was of course fired out as being silly, but it took two harrowing years and left him without his firearms until it was all over)

Hi sidneyreilly,

yes, you are quite right. Authorisation is also required in the deact cases. I wasn't aware that you needed to get authorisation repeatedly after buying your first deacts as I assumed that once the Super issues you more Art. 7 for import of deacts in future cases he automatically is ok (authorises) you to possess such a defective (antique) item.

I always maintain it is better to get authorisation for anything involved in collecting deacts. Just to be on the safe side and to continue with the hobby without fear of doing something wrong.

sidneyreilly

Preusse wrote: »

I always maintain it is better to get authorisation for anything involved in collecting deacts. Just to be on the safe side and to continue with the hobby without fear of doing something wrong.

Solid gold advice from Preusse that. I reckon a copy of the article 7 is a de-facto authorization in the case of an import.

arnhem44

so whats the bottom line with this,do people need to put it past the gaurds first if they want to buy some old inert rounds,i've often been tempted to buy and old german stick grenade for example,can i not just get this posted in,i can see yere point about the deacts

bullets

arnhem44 wrote: »

so whats the bottom line with this,do people need to put it past the gaurds first if they want to buy some old inert rounds,i've often been tempted to buy and old german stick grenade for example,can i not just get this posted in,i can see yere point about the deacts

Think there was something mentioned someplace in the firearms act that
Grenade even if not functional was a bit of a no no or at least restricted.
There is some definition in there that specifically mentions grenade.

I would love some but have been afraid in the past to buy online,
There was an Army Surplus store in Dublin who sold insert Grenades
a few years back. The Pineapple type. They were all rusty but looked cool.
I think the store was in Little Mary street. Dunno if its still open.
Also the Army store off shop street in Galway (a good long time ago) used
to have on display Inert Mortar's and various other inert goods some of which
were for sale. They were going to order me inert grenades before (about 10 years ago)
but it never materialized.

There was a recent thread were the topic of empty cases was raised and
from what I gather the opinion would be that once fired the empty shell was no longer
considered a component part of the firearm. But that was just talking about empty brass
not speicially inert rounds.

I told my Local Crime Prevention officer that I collected brass and inert ammo,
and I also questioned it with my Local firearms officers who said as Long as it was
not a firearm itself it was ok.

~B

arnhem44

i got this one from Poland,its not in the best condition,its a 20mm round which is dated 1944 and was supposed to be from an ME109 or so he said,this came last year and how anybody can think these are dangerous is beyond me,maybe smaller rounds which could be re-armed then yes,i did come across a site in England which was stopping the sale of all brass and inert ammo from the first of April,is this the beginning?????

enfield

I have two de-acs and webley revolver and an smle No 1 Mk 3 Lee Enfield. I cut up my Martini henry .22 with an angle grinder and handed it over to the Fuzz and told them I have not used it for the past 7 years and it was no use to me and i would not take a chance on selling it. So in essence I traded a functioning weapon for a permit to keep two de-acs. The permit has the serial number of both weapons on it. I use them for Militaria displays and re-enactment. The Guards came to the house to see the weapons and I showed them they would be kept in the gun safe when they are not being used. When they are 'out' with me the webley will be on my hip and the 303 will be in the Cab of my Dutch Army Weapons carrier.
Regards.
Tom.

Dr Strange

Hi Tom,

sounds good. Any photos? Particularly of the Webley. And maybe your other gear?

enfield

Also a few pictures from the Cavan show last weekend. Next big Military show is in the Curragh on the 11th of May. There will be lots of militaria stalls there selling uniforms, equipment, military antiques bayonets, swords, medals, insignia, badges and who knows what else. It will also be the second largest display of Military vehicles in the South of Ireland, (The largest being in Cavan last weekend). There will be different re-enactors there depicting scenes from Military history and historical displays. I hope it does not rain!! The night before the displayers have a barbecue and there is drink taken and songs played and such a lot of tosh as you would not believe talked about. If you want something identified or valued its the place to be. At the Curragh show last week I picked up a nice old army surplus petrol cooker which is ideal for the truck and for 25 euro I could not go wrong. I also picked up other interesting items of insignia etc. I was looking for a big army tent but there was not one available so I ordered the canvas without the poles for 20 euro and i make the poles myself, it aint rocket science and a cheap 6 man army tent. Sleeping in the back of the truck is a bit confined thats why for a bit of comfort a tent would be the biz. We use army sleeping bags and army beds but civilian alcohol.
Enough of this rabbitting here are some pics;

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/clondaleek/?action=view&current=Cavanshow068.jpg

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/clondaleek/?action=view&current=Cavanshow067.jpg

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/clondaleek/?action=view&current=Cavanshow066.jpg

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/clondaleek/?action=view&current=Cavanshow020.jpg

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/clondaleek/?action=view&current=Cavanshow050.jpg

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/clondaleek/?action=view&current=Boardsi012.jpg

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/clondaleek/?action=view&current=Boardsi009.jpg

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/clondaleek/?action=view&current=Boardsi011.jpg

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/clondaleek/?action=view&current=Boardsi001.jpg

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/clondaleek/?action=view&current=Cavanshow006.jpg


Enjoy.
Tom.

arnhem44

Hello Enfield,some nice stuff on display there,sounded like a really good time,as your in the know about the fairs and displays i was wondering is there anything like that held in munster??,would love to go to one here

Dr Strange

Very nice pics, Tom!

If you or anyone else know of any events that may be of interest to collectors please feel free to post the dates in our militaria events section here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055174883

SpitfireIV

enfield wrote: »

Next big Military show is in the Curragh on the 11th of May.

Hmmm, sounds mighty tempting! Have to see how the college work load is going though, I need something new to drool over

Nice pics Tom! Tell me more about your SMLE, is she an Aussie by any chance? I was offered a Webley once, €250 I think, I had just forked out €400+ on an SMLE so the funds were low . But I'll get one eventually.

arnhem44

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

Hmmm, sounds mighty tempting! Have to see how the college work load is going though, I need something new to drool over

Nice pics Tom! Tell me more about your SMLE, is she an Aussie by any chance? I was offered a Webley once, €250 I think, I had just forked out €400+ on an SMLE so the funds were low . But I'll get one eventually.

Is it possible to buy deacts here,i've never seen any for sale,say someone here has one for sale for example,can they sell it and would you still have to go to the gaurds to notify them that you have it??

SpitfireIV

arnhem44 wrote: »

Is it possible to buy deacts here,i've never seen any for sale,say someone here has one for sale for example,can they sell it and would you still have to go to the gaurds to notify them that you have it??

Oops, may have worded that wrong, no, I didnt get my de-ac at such an event, it was a private sale, off the 'Buy and Sell' in fact :cool:, and had a talk with the local super (I actually had it a while before I realised it would be best to inform the law).

arnhem44

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

Oops, may have worded that wrong, no, I didnt get my de-ac at such an event, it was a private sale, off the 'Buy and Sell' in fact :cool:, and had a talk with the local super (I actually had it a while before I realised it would be best to inform the law).

Off the buy and sell,talk about hitting the jackpot:D,nice one,i wish i had that kinda luck

Dr Strange

arnhem44 wrote: »

Is it possible to buy deacts here,i've never seen any for sale,say someone here has one for sale for example,can they sell it and would you still have to go to the gaurds to notify them that you have it??

A deactivated firearm is classified as a "defective firearm" and requires authorisation in Ireland.

arnhem44

Preusse wrote: »

A deactivated firearm is classified as a "defective firearm" and requires authorisation in Ireland.

so is it still the same process you go through, the same if your trying to import a deact taking it to the barracks to be checked by a gaurd even if it has been cleared with another station by a previous owner before you can get the autorisation to own it yourself. would the same article seven form be needed,i thought that was only for importing them or is it something else

Dr Strange

arnhem44 wrote: »

so is it still the same process you go through, the same if your trying to import a deact taking it to the barracks to be checked by a gaurd even if it has been cleared with another station by a previous owner before you can get the autorisation to own it yourself. would the same article seven form be needed,i thought that was only for importing them or is it something else

No, if it is in the country you do not need another Art. 7. However, you still need authorisation from your local Super to actually possess the defective firearm.

EDIT: enfield (Tom) Thanks for the event dates and info. I moved it to our events thread in militaria.

kowloon

enfield wrote: »

I cut up my Martini henry .22 with an angle grinder

What possessed you to do that :eek:

enfield

Originally Posted by enfield
I cut up my Martini henry .22 with an angle grinder

What possessed you to do that? Kowloon.

I used an angle grinder because a hacksaw would take too long!!. Really I did not want strangers calling to my house and haggling. I had not used it for years and it was a drain on my funds. I cleared it with the Gardai before I cut it up. Now I dont have to pay for a licence for something thats never used. Do it right do it once.
Clear everything