Commissioned or Non-Comissioned ranks

miss no stars

williambonney wrote: »

That is one reason why I would never under any circumstances join the army. It’s beyond my comprehension how some jumped up bog farmers daughter should be addressed in the same way as her majesty the queen, or her Excellency the president.

The simple answer to that is that it's not the person you're showing the respect to, it's the rank. Maybe if you did join you'd learn a little rather than harbouring ignorant views and refusing to listen to what people are informing you of.

Blazher

miss no stars wrote: »

The simple answer to that is that it's not the person you're showing the respect to, it's the rank. Maybe if you did join you'd learn a little rather than harbouring ignorant views and refusing to listen to what people are informing you of.

Yes true, Even if you don't like the "Person" you respect the RANK

Something was said to me in training, When you look at an NCO/Officer you don't see the person you see the RANK and respect it,

IRLConor

williambonney wrote: »

That is one reason why I would never under any circumstances join the army. It’s beyond my comprehension how some jumped up bog farmers daughter should be addressed in the same way as her majesty the queen, or her Excellency the president.

Male teachers in school were "Sir", "Mr {surname}" or "Fr {surname}" as appropriate. Female teachers were universally "Miss". Some of them deserved the respect, others didn't, but they all got it. In school it was as much about respecting the position rather than the person. Past pupils who had been, say, "John" became "Sir" if they came back as teachers.

In the military I suspect that it is similar. A Sgt with 20 years experience who is then commissioned as a Lt will be "Sir" to his colleagues who were Sgts with him (at least in public). Similarly he will be outranked by a Cpt who is younger and less experienced than him. Does this mean that the young Captain does not respect him? Not if he has any sense I imagine...

williambonney

Sorry, I just couldn’t bring myself to address any young woman as Ma’am. The idea of it seems ludicrous to me. It seems that the army and I would be both totally incompatible. I will stay away, unless there is a major war and they really need me.

Witcher

williambonney wrote: »

I will stay away, unless there is a major war and they really need me.

with your views on women and ranks they hold , i think the army would surrender rather than draft you




:cool::cool::cool:

Blazher

blay1 wrote: »

with your views on women and ranks they hold , i think the army would surrender rather than draft you




:cool::cool::cool:

Uncalled for but Funny lol!!

williambonney

Another question for you military types, some years back there was a quaint custom where an officer had a batman, a personal servant. Does that still apply?

Mick86

purplengold wrote: »

You seem to know what you’re talking about. Why do we have a rank of commandant? I have never heard of that rank in any other army. And I have never heard of an irish army officer of the rank of major.

It's a hangover from the IRA days AFAIK. There were Majors in the Army as well until the 1940s. They ranked between Commandant and Lt-Col.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

JUst as a matter of interest, is it acceptable to only refer to an officer by their rank?

In practice it isn't done. So I would say it isn't acceptable.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I feel uncomfortable calling anyone "sir" or "ma'am" and would do so if needed but if I was able to get away with calling them "captain" or "sergeant", would that be ok?

Non Commissioned ranks are addressed by their rank. If any aspect of DF service makes you uncomfortable then don't join. If you want to join then you do what the DF wants, how it wants. It isn't open to negotiation.

williambonney wrote: »

That is one reason why I would never under any circumstances join the army. It’s beyond my comprehension how some jumped up bog farmers daughter should be addressed in the same way as her majesty the queen, or her Excellency the president.

We call it discipline.

williambonney wrote: »

Another question for you military types, some years back there was a quaint custom where an officer had a batman, a personal servant. Does that still apply?

No.

Manic Moran

It’s beyond my comprehension how some jumped up bog farmers daughter should be addressed in the same way as her majesty the queen, or her Excellency the president

Easy. See definition of Comissioned Officer. Said jumped-up bog farmer's daughter holds the Queen's or the President's Comission. As such, she is a direct representative of Her Majesty or Her Excellency.

JUst as a matter of interest, is it acceptable to only refer to an officer by their rank?

Quite legal, but can be of questionable acceptableness. If a sergeant addresses a Lieutenant as "Lieutenant" in my experience, it means that he doesn't like you, and/or is dressing you down. "Ell-Tee" or "Sir" generally means you're on good terms.

Another question for you military types, some years back there was a quaint custom where an officer had a batman, a personal servant. Does that still apply?

There is apparently still a provision for a batman in the British Forces. It's no longer a soldier assigned to the duty, but a personally hired assistant. The British Army has various rules/regulations in place to acommodate any such batmen, for example to cover lodging and food in the Officers' Mess.

NTM

Lockstep

Mick86 wrote: »

Non Commissioned ranks are addressed by their rank. If any aspect of DF service makes you uncomfortable then don't join. If you want to join then you do what the DF wants, how it wants. It isn't open to negotiation.
.

yeah, was expecting that answer by someone.


I dunno, I always felt the term "sir" to smack of subservience. Granted I would be in the army but at the same time, would referring to someone by their rank show a respect for it(in the same way you refer to the gardai as "officer" or "Garda", as it shows an achknowledgement of their rank and the time taken to learn what their position is) or would it be seen as obsequiesness/over attention to detail.


Calling someone I know to be a Lieutenant "sir" would be a bit odd to me, but for someone I know to be an officer but am unsure of their rank, sir wouldnt sit too bad.

neilled

Hagar wrote: »

NCOs, such as Sergeant, should always be addressed by their rank.
Never say "Sir / Ma'am" to an NCO.

You'll get the reply "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living"

In relation to the jumped up farmers daughter comment, said farmers daughter has received a commission from the head of state to command their troops. So in theory (leaving out the govt etc) the officer in question is a direct representative of the Queen/President/Head of state empowered to give orders on their behalf and is addressed by sir/m'am as a consequence.

Gunny Hartman

Wow this thread quickly fell into a I'm not calling her Ma'am and why should I call him Sir thread when he is younger than me? It's been said by enough people for me not to have to put in my two cents.

As regards the commissioned ranks and non commissioned both are needed to make the world go round, it's just like those stupid arguements people have "Infantry is better, no Artillery, Cavalry, Signals, S&T etc." They are all universally needed in my opinion.

By the by hello, my first post here, long time lurker first time poster.

Gunny H.

Hagar

Welcome Gunny.

segaBOY

Company Sgt wrote: »

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NCO NON COMMISSIONED OFFICER AND A CO COMMISSIONED OFFICER IS A NCO ENLISTS AS A PRIVATE/AIRMAN AND WORKS HIS B***** OFF AND MOVES UP THE RANKS TO BE CPL,SGT,CQ,CS AND SO ON,WHERAS A COMMISSIONED OFFICER JOINS AS A A CADET AND IS COMMISSIONED IN FROM THE PRESIDENT AS A 2nd LT .THEY ARE THE CLOWNS THAT ARE TELLING A SGT WITH 20YRS EXPERIANCE HOW TO DO HIS JOB WHEN YHE 2lT IS ONLY IN THE ARMY A WET F****** WEEK,HATE THOSE B*******

Why are C/Ss always angry-I HATE THOSE GUYS COS THEY HAD THE BRAIN TO GET INTO THE CADETS :rolleyes: why didn't you join as a cadet yourself instead of bitching about a higher rank

Mick86

Gunny Hartman wrote: »

Wow this thread quickly fell into a I'm not calling her Ma'am and why should I call him Sir thread when he is younger than me?

Why, is a mystery because the people doing all the bitching are civilians who have no idea what the military is about.:rolleyes:

Company Sgt

segaBOY wrote: »

Why are C/Ss always angry-I HATE THOSE GUYS COS THEY HAD THE BRAIN TO GET INTO THE CADETS :rolleyes: why didn't you join as a cadet yourself instead of bitching about a higher rank

1.I Wouldn't be Able To Achieve The Things I Could As A Cadet As I Can As An Nco
2.I Wouldnt Have The Qualifications For A Cadetship
3.And Why Would I Spend Four Years Doing A Degree,And Then Join As A Cadet When I Could Earn Twice As Much In Civi Life

Gunny Hartman

Mick86 wrote: »

Why, is a mystery because the people doing all the bitching are civilians who have no idea what the military is about.:rolleyes:

True true, Some of the people here just seem to think you can do what you want. Granted you get them in platoons as well but at least they will address an officer properly.

Company Sgt, Just curious as to what you hope to achieve as an NCO?

Company Sgt

Gunny Hartman wrote: »

True true, Some of the people here just seem to think you can do what you want. Granted you get them in platoons as well but at least they will address an officer properly.

Company Sgt, Just curious as to what you hope to achieve as an NCO?

Regarding Promotions, Courses, Tours Of Duty

miss no stars

You'd get promoted faster (once finished cadet training) through the commissioned ranks. You'll also be promoted more frequently if you're worth your salt at all. Realistically, given the number of enlisted bods it's unlikely that most of them will go above sergeant. Some will make it to batalion sergeant major, but the highest most can look at is company sergeant. Commissioned route you're pretty much guaranteed Lt Colonel. Higher pay, more promotions. But it all comes down to where you're gonna be happiest at the end of the day.

Gunny Hartman

You are not garunteed Lt. Col. You are only garunteed Captain, from there on out it comes down to getting the promotion on your own merit. Promotion as an enlisted man will depend on what corps you go into. The likes of transport and signals will be hard to move up the ranks fast. But then again sometimes it might just go your way. I remember hearing a story about a very young Sgt. Major a number of years a go, only 27 when he got the rank if I'm not mistaken.

Company Sgt

miss no stars wrote: »

You'd get promoted faster (once finished cadet training) through the commissioned ranks. You'll also be promoted more frequently if you're worth your salt at all. Realistically, given the number of enlisted bods it's unlikely that most of them will go above sergeant. Some will make it to batalion sergeant major, but the highest most can look at is company sergeant. Commissioned route you're pretty much guaranteed Lt Colonel. Higher pay, more promotions. But it all comes down to where you're gonna be happiest at the end of the day.

nah very few officers reach lt colonel,probably lucky to reach commandant.if i came out after 20 yrs and reached Company sgt id be happy, sgt maj is hard to come by now

Company Sgt

Gunny Hartman wrote: »

You are not garunteed Lt. Col. You are only garunteed Captain, from there on out it comes down to getting the promotion on your own merit. Promotion as an enlisted man will depend on what corps you go into. The likes of transport and signals will be hard to move up the ranks fast. But then again sometimes it might just go your way. I remember hearing a story about a very young Sgt. Major a number of years a go, only 27 when he got the rank if I'm not mistaken.

If you have any willpower you will move up the ranks put your head down,i heard that story as well about that sgt maj strange !!!

miss no stars

Sorry I thought I had written that if you're worth your salt as an officer! And if you are worth your salt as an officer then you shouldn't be selling yourself short of anything less than Lt Col. That said, there has been a backlog of the system because of huge cadet classes about 20-30 years ago. This backlog is now starting to clear a bit and promotions result. As for the BSM, the reason you remember him above all the old codgers that go before him is because he is the exception. THe exceptions are the more memorable.

neilled

miss no stars wrote: »

Sorry I thought I had written that if you're worth your salt as an officer! And if you are worth your salt as an officer then you shouldn't be selling yourself short of anything less than Lt Col. That said, there has been a backlog of the system because of huge cadet classes about 20-30 years ago. This backlog is now starting to clear a bit and promotions result. As for the BSM, the reason you remember him above all the old codgers that go before him is because he is the exception. THe exceptions are the more memorable.

Thats interesting miss no stars - what size were the cadet classes back in those days? Going back over the annual reports that are online around 55 cadets across all three branches of the df seem to be average these days.

segaBOY

Company Sgt wrote: »

1.I Wouldn't be Able To Achieve The Things I Could As A Cadet As I Can As An Nco
2.I Wouldnt Have The Qualifications For A Cadetship
3.And Why Would I Spend Four Years Doing A Degree,And Then Join As A Cadet When I Could Earn Twice As Much In Civi Life

1. What specific things are worth achieving as an NCO?
2. Fair enough, could have went and got them, technically an average Leaving Cert would have done
3. Ha ha good one, most degrees nowadays won't get you near what you'd start off on as a 2nd Lt only the top brass ones such as Medicine (5yrs), Dentistry (5yrs), Pharmacy or maybe Civil Eng if your very lucky would, not going to say Law as that doesn't guarantee you anything, I can almost guarantee you that degrees in Science etc don't lend you to "Earn twice as much" not even close, mightn't even be able to get a job in your area of qualification, a 2nd Lt would be on more

Company Sgt

segaBOY wrote: »

1. What specific things are worth achieving as an NCO?
2. Fair enough, could have went and got them, technically an average Leaving Cert would have done
3. Ha ha good one, most degrees nowadays won't get you near what you'd start off on as a 2nd Lt only the top brass ones such as Medicine (5yrs), Dentistry (5yrs), Pharmacy or maybe Civil Eng if your very lucky would, not going to say Law as that doesn't guarantee you anything, I can almost guarantee you that degrees in Science etc don't lend you to "Earn twice as much" not even close, mightn't even be able to get a job in your area of qualification, a 2nd Lt would be on more

1.im a third year fitter finish that off cant achieve that as a cadet
2.an average leaving cert will not do you need at least 3honours on higher papers miss no stars cant correct me if im wrong
3.why waste 4 yrs doing degree and join cadet earn 30 odd k when earn 100k easily in cive

miss no stars

Company Sgt. you're slightly deluded as to how much graduates earn. Even Medical interns only earn 60k, I say only because they work about twice as much as any normal graduate. Pretty much most other graduates who've done a career type degree (engineering etc) will typically earn 30k. It's not until you get to higher "ranks" of the profession that you can be looking at abour 70 or 80k. Some degrees increase in pay faster, but what i've described is par for the course. Officer pay is EASILY on a par with civilian pay. Wouldn't get many graduate cadets if it wasn't and graduates is what they're trying to attract.

As for educational requirements, you need to pass english, irish and a third language at a minimum of ordinary level (for the purpose of NUI matriculation).
You need a C3 in 3 higher papers and a D3 in any other papers at higher/ordinary level. It adds up to about 195 points if I recall. Very much a standard leaving cert.

The actual figures for cadet pay are as follows (graduates)

Year one 23,452
year two 26,960

(bear in mind that this is trainee pay, the cadet is not being productive and as such can not expect to earn what they'd get that year in civvie land, most graduates will have enough cop on to know this)


Graduates are then commissioned as full Lts.

On appointment E34,486
After 1 year E35,726
After 2 years E37,089
After 3 years E38,334
After 4 years E39,582
After 5 years E40,295
After 6 years E41,331
After 7 years E42,370

Military Service pay of E4,511 also payable to army/air corps 2LTs and LTs

Realistically, they won't stay on Lt Pay for 7 years. Link to full rates of pay http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/Document+ID/ECED65584861BA7680256C7E00421C7E?OpenDocument

Manic Moran

If a four-year degree gets you 100K in civvie street these days, I emigrated too soon.

NTM

ChapOfDRyans

who pays you when your overseas is it the u.n or the pdf and how much would you make by doing a tour overseas

segaBOY

Company Sgt wrote: »

1.im a third year fitter finish that off cant achieve that as a cadet
2.an average leaving cert will not do you need at least 3honours on higher papers miss no stars cant correct me if im wrong
3.why waste 4 yrs doing degree and join cadet earn 30 odd k when earn 100k easily in cive

1. Ok, if that's what you want to be I won't argue
2. I would regard that as an average leaving Cert tbh, 3 honours isn't all that tough
3. 100k, right thank God I'm in college, those b*****ds at loadzajobs.ie must be lying bout my salary when I graduate...didn't know the Irish labour market was that highly paid-don't think it is tbh, we would not be able to function in any way on the international market if it was

And obviously you're not a C/S, saw that in a previous post-lack of experience in the army=don't know what you're talking about/have a chip on your shoulder

I don't claim to have any experience in the PDF-I'm only a bagger, but at least I don't claim I do/know when I'm wrong