Suicide

Maple

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

BLACK!

Black like the endless space that leads to the chasm of the clams!

Where are we sleeping tonight, Fathers grave ?

Oh yes, what shall we do with Father, Mother?...fold him like a ticket, and poke him in a hole!

With the Black! Black! Black!! Black!! Like the shadows that lie in wait for us!!

LOL. **hands WWM a bic biro**

tech77

jdivision wrote: »

What you don't seem to realise is that people go into such a black space that they feel that everybody else would be better off without them. Therefore the act is not selfish. I go f--king spare in general when I hear people come over all "such a selfish act" so please don't think I'm picking on you specifically but basically if you haven't been there don't judge anybody else. It's one of the reasons why we have such a high suicide rate. People think it's just melancholy. "ah come on snap out of it," is the standard reply. Oh wait, Dorothy clicked her shoes and I'm fine again. Actually no, it's not that simple.

+1.
Good post,
I hate when people dismiss it glibly as selfish.
As you say people don't really understand the myriad emotions and thoughts that a depressed person can have.
That's the whole point, they think their loved ones would be better off without them and they feel the future is hopeless.

Granted a small percentage of suicides may be motivated by vindictiveness toward someone and these are selfish acts.
But that's the minority i'm sure.
Suicide is a lot of things, mostly tragic but "selfish" would be way down the list (if on the list at all).

Davidius

Never even thought about it. In fact, when I hear 'suicide' I think of Bob-ombs.

ciano1

suicide is painless??

speaktofrank

ciano1 wrote: »

suicide is painless??

Is that a question? I am a little shocked at the results of the poll so far, the majority of people seem to have considered it at some stage in their life. I will never forget the words of my English teacher in school. 'Just in case any of you here are considerig it, remember that life is beautiful and always worth living.' Don't think he knows how much that helped me.

Intothesea

True and it's also a constant battle for all but
the most breeze-block headed of folks. Suicidal
thoughts indicate the extinguishment of hope,
but how you might get there is a matter of your
exact personality, your personal relationships and
your history: an unguessable recipe for someone
you don't know intimately.

Erring on the side of caution by reaching
into the thoughts and feelings or just making
yourself available in that way for someone who
seems to be receeding is one good way to proceed
I think (coupled with a dainty frogmarch to some
suitable professionals if required ).

Have considered it while coming to terms
with incurable introversion. Could never have
acted on it though: too much of a girl's blouse
for pain, plus I want to make good on the gift
my parents gave in good faith to me.

davyjose

Intothesea wrote: »

True and it's also a constant battle for all but
the most breeze-block headed of folks.

Boll ox! It might be a constant battle for some people, or it might be a very rare consideration for all but "the most breeze-block headed of folks", but it's no way a constant battle for most people.

Intothesea

Way to save the thread from unmitigated emo-ness.

I think we both need to edit our posts, mine to include
an IMO, and yours to include 'in my experience and
perception'.

Intothesea

Sorry, double post.

Shield

I've been to a few.

One, a hanging, just minutes too late. His body was warm and still twitching. We tried and tried but it was too late. The look on his deep red face is something I'll never forget.

I've had to deliver the messages. I had to tell a woman that her husband wasn't coming home tonight. He lay down in front of a train. Her screams were the most horrible thing I've ever heard. I just shattered her world. The baby started crying upstairs.

I urge anyone out there who is considering suicide as an option to seek help immediately.

Call Me Jimmy

Suicide is committed when there is 100% no hope for anything. I would argue that people who self harm and most people who go around proclaiming they are depressed to anyone who'll listen are definately not suicidal.

I don't think it's possible for someone to imagine the feeling either. And if a chat on the phone to a friend can make you see that everythings ok I would say that you were nowhere near suicidal.

Call Me Jimmy

maple wrote: »

i get why someone would think that its selfish but thats mostly frustration and anger at not being allowed to have helped the person. mostly i think that its horrifically sad that someone would feel so horrible and so alone in their sadness that they would think that suicide is the ohly way out for them. that their world is so dark that they just want to escape from it. its easy to judge and call them selfish but until you experience that mental blackness and despair then its unfair to do so.

^^
good post.

Sam Vimes

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Suicide is committed when there is 100% no hope for anything

the only time that is the case is when they have a terminal disease or similar. Otherwise there is always hope. I can understand suicide in people who are bipolar etc because they have a medical condition that makes them depressed and whats happening in their life is largely irrelevant but i can't understand why people who start to think that people would be better off without them don't just throw a dart at a map, buy a plane ticket and see if life is any better there.

what would stop most people doing that is commitments and fear of the unknown but neither of those should be an issue for a suicidal person because if the other choice is suicide, they're not going to have any commitments anyway and suicide is the ultimate unknown

so, the people who considered suicide, tell me why you never thought of moving away. As far as i can see the results for others are the same (you're not there) but instead of being dead you're having the experience of a lifetime. Once you're prepared to kill yourself you're more free than anyone else on the planet because no matter what you decide to do, the worst thing that can happen is what you've already decided to do

and of course, if life is no better in this new place you can kill yourself then, or maybe you could throw another dart

Reku

[insight/rant]

The thing people need to keep in mind is that, thanks to ego and self preservation being parts of the human condition, suicide is a last resort. It's what you try when you genuinely can't think of any other way to deal with something.
Many people do think of it as being selfish but often the person has been doing everything they can to keep their pain to themselves to try spare loved ones the worry and concern of trying to help them get better from something they can't really see a way to get free of. People don't usually just wake up one day and think "I'm depressed", it's a slow process, grinding away at you. Even then it takes more time to eat at you so much that you actually can act on it. Religion doesn't exactly spur you on either, for years that was a big fear for me, it this is life what is hell like!? I kept to just cutting myself since if I died from an infection well that was the infection not me, God can't blame me for it. It was only when I felt that it didn't matter, he couldn't possibly send me anywhere worse that I finally stopped holding back.

Even when you do there will be thoughts of your family and trying to minimise their pain and the clean up afterwards. You can't do much for the pain other than try put into written words the whys and mkae them understand that there was nothing they could've done, the world does not change to save one, it simply follows the path of the masses.
Because of the planning so as to make the clean-up easier it means my parents actually don't know anything about it, they might suspect, but if so they've been afraid to voice it.
Been a few years for me at this point as a sibling also tried and was taken to hospital, one child could be passed off as a tradgedy, 2 there's no way my parents (and probably others) wouldn't blame themselves, they're good people and it's not their fault that they couldn't keep the world out, so there's no way I'd do that to them. Does mean there's a part of me looking forward to them dying since then I'll be free (won't even have to care about clean-up so at least I can try some more rather extreme methods, have already tried some of the simpler ones but unfortunately they don't tend to work out as easily as the media might lead you to believe) but still I wouldn't hold that against them and wish that they live long, happy lives.

ztoical

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Suicide is committed when there is 100% no hope for anything. I would argue that people who self harm and most people who go around proclaiming they are depressed to anyone who'll listen are definately not suicidal.

I find alot of the people who go around saying they are depressed are just feeling low and aren't really depressed in the clinical sense of the word. There is a huge difference in being/feeling depressed and being clinicaly depressed. Huge Laurie described first realising there was something wrong with him while driving in a charity demolition derby in 1996, and he realised that driving around explosive crashes caused him to be neither excited nor frightened (he said that he felt, in fact, bored). Suffering from clinical depression doesn't mean you feel sad all the time it usuall means you feel nothing, you feel disconected from whats happening around.

People who self harm are often mistaken for suicide attempts or else just people looking for attention when thats not the case. People who self harm do it without suicidal intent - it has been suggested that they are using self-injury as a coping mechanism to relieve emotional pain or discomfort and people will be very aware of the cuts and will go to great lengths to hide them.

The issue with self harm is people not understanding the why's and thinking it was just attention seeking. In seconday school I self harmed for years and one day a teacher saw the cuts on my arm and rather then getting me to speak to someone about, she belittled me and told me to cop on and stop looking for attention - I did stop cutting as a result but not for the right reasons and thats one of the reasons I belive I got depressed and suicidal.

Reku

ztoical wrote: »

People who self harm are often mistaken for suicide attempts or else just people looking for attention when thats not the case. People who self harm do it without suicidal intent - it has been suggested that they are using self-injury as a coping mechanism to relieve emotional pain or discomfort and people will be very aware of the cuts and will go to great lengths to hide them.

Think of it as a fuse for when the stuff you have pent up inside builds up too much, the pain from self harm takes your mind off the inner pain long enough to let it subside a little. In time the pain is less the effector than simply the act as it becomes a learned behaviour pattern so that even though you don't feel it your mind still finds it a release mechanism. While originally a large part of it for me was hoping I'd catch something that'd kill me (I was young and merely understood that germs can kill) I still resort to this.
My parents did know about this during my teenage years but haven't a clue I still do it as I've learned how to hide them (doesn't actually require great lengths when you figure out how).

Capt'n Midnight

where is the option for "I've thought about it while drunk" ?

Permanent solution to a temporary problem TBH

Reku

Yes but flip that around and you see that it is also a problem that can last only as long as life does, live another 5 minutes spend the next 5 minutes hating life, live another 50 years -> perhaps spend the next 50 years hating life. All depends on your expectations of whether there will be improvement or not.

Sam Vimes

farohar wrote: »

Yes but flip that around and you see that it is also a problem that can last only as long as life does, live another 5 minutes spend the next 5 minutes hating life, live another 50 years -> perhaps spend the next 50 years hating life. All depends on your expectations of whether there will be improvement or not.

well if you kill yourself there will definitely be no improvement. what you're saying is like playing russian roulette with a fully loaded gun because you don't fancy your chances anyway.

people who kill themselves have only tried one life but there are 6 billion to choose from. they can only legitimately give up hope when they've tried all 6 billion and hated every single one of them

i'm sure you've eaten food you didn't like. what did you do at that point? did you give up eating or did you try different food until you found some you liked?

as i said above, if you've tried everything and still want to kill yourself, you still can. it can always be plan B. But you can't kill yourself, decide you don't like it and respawn

Reku

That's based on the faulty assumption that you can undo the past, both in its effect on you and on how others treat you, sometimes life and your available choices can railroad you.

There may well be another 6 Billion lives out there but you only get to try the one you are given, you can't swap lives any more than you can genetic coding.

And if you believe in reincarnation then suicide is in fact the only way to get to try one of the other foods without first having to clear your plate of this meal, afterall why continue to eat the one you hate when you just have to switch plates to try something else that you don't yet know if you'll hate.

Stercus Accidit

Commander Vimes wrote: »

well if you kill yourself there will definitely be no improvement. what you're saying is like playing russian roulette with a fully loaded gun because you don't fancy your chances anyway.

people who kill themselves have only tried one life but there are 6 billion to choose from. they can only legitimately give up hope when they've tried all 6 billion and hated every single one of them

i'm sure you've eaten food you didn't like. what did you do at that point? did you give up eating or did you try different food until you found some you liked?

as i said above, if you've tried everything and still want to kill yourself, you still can. it can always be plan B. But you can't kill yourself, decide you don't like it and respawn

How the hell does one try someone elses life?

The point is its a last resort, brought about by constant failure to change your own life for the better.

I suppose this is trying different lives, but you can only ever be yourself so its just versions of your own life that are maybe different or better, or worse.

Saying why not try this, go away, improve things etc. are idealism and given the length of time someone would have suffered with depression before this stage I'm sure they would have thought these things through a little more than an internet poster would have.

You're right though, things can get better, but its a matter of getting this through to a person who has only known the worst in life, is the problem.

Call Me Jimmy

Commander Vimes wrote: »

well if you kill yourself there will definitely be no improvement.

Are you serious? Think of it like torture. If someone was slowly clipping off your fingers, one bit at a time and you had the option to be dead, would that not be an improvement?

It's the same type of thing.

You said earlier that people should just pack their bags and and go travelling etc. but this won't work if someone is genuinely depressed because their problems come with them. If someone is depressed about their appearance moving to tokyo isn't going to make a difference, they'd still hate themselves.

Although if someone is suicidal, at that stage it isn't depression about a specific thing it is everything collapsing on top of them.

Call Me Jimmy

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Permanent solution to a temporary problem TBH

QFT if it is a temporary problem

Sam Vimes

farohar wrote: »

That's based on the faulty assumption that you can undo the past, both in its effect on you and on how others treat you, sometimes life and your available choices can railroad you.

it can indeed railroad you. that's why you jump off the train and go to a place where the train can't get you anymore.

i didn't say anything about undoing the past. i was talking about changing the future. if i understand you correctly, you're saying that people will always treat a suicidal person badly because of the personality type they have. tbh, it sounds to me like they just need to find better people to associate with. not everyone is a pr!ck

farohar wrote: »

There may well be another 6 Billion lives out there but you only get to try the one you are given, you can't swap lives any more than you can genetic coding.

i'm obviously not talking about swapping lives with someone. i was making the point that if a person doesn't like their life, they should change it, not end it

farohar wrote: »

And if you believe in reincarnation then suicide is in fact the only way to get to try one of the other foods without first having to clear your plate of this meal, afterall why continue to eat the one you hate when you just have to switch plates to try something else that you don't yet know if you'll hate.

i don't believe in reincarnation but what you're suggesting there is exactly what i'm suggesting except in my scenario you don't have to die to switch plates and see if you like the new one, you just have to buy a plane ticket.

Motosam wrote: »

How the hell does one try someone elses life?

The point is its a last resort, brought about by constant failure to change your own life for the better.

until they've put a foot in every city in the world and met every single person in the world to see if that person makes them happy, its not a last resort.

Motosam wrote: »

Saying why not try this, go away, improve things etc. are idealism and given the length of time someone would have suffered with depression before this stage I'm sure they would have thought these things through a little more than an internet poster would have.

you're making the incorrect assumtion that because i'm on the internet i don't have experience in the matter

Motosam wrote: »

You're right though, things can get better, but its a matter of getting this through to a person who has only known the worst in life, is the problem.

how about i bring you to malawi or maybe chernobyl? there you'll see people who've had the worst in life. what depressed people in ireland have is not the worst, its a perception of the worst

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Are you serious? Think of it like torture. If someone was slowly clipping off your fingers, one bit at a time and you had the option to be dead, would that not be an improvement?

you see that's not a fair analogy. a better one would be someone is clipping off my fingers but has the door open and is not preventing me from leaving in any way. a suicidal person chooses to kill himself rather than walk out the door for some reason that i can't understand

Motosam wrote: »

You said earlier that people should just pack their bags and and go travelling etc. but this won't work if someone is genuinely depressed because their problems come with them. If someone is depressed about their appearance moving to tokyo isn't going to make a difference, they'd still hate themselves.

you're making a big assumtion there. and as i said, if they get to tokyo, give it a chance and still hate themselves, they can still go ahead and kill themselves which goes to show that until a suicidal person has been to tokyo, its not a last resort

ztoical

Commander Vimes wrote: »

until they've put a foot in every city in the world and met every single person in the world to see if that person makes them happy, its not a last resort.

Alot of the time its nothing to do with location your in - if your clinical depressed it won't make a difference where in the world you are. I don't think people see it as a last resort or their only option, for some they don't think about it in that regardes. Like I've said before there is a difference between being depressed and clinical depressed and its hard for people who've never suffered from the later to understand what it feels like.

Commander Vimes wrote: »

how about i bring you to malawi or maybe chernobyl? there you'll see people who've had the worst in life. what depressed people in ireland have is not the worst, its a perception of the worst

I really hate this argument - there are people worse off then you stop sulking and just get on with your life. Alot of times that stops people who have serious mental issues from seeking help cus they fear thats the sort of answer they will get back

Call Me Jimmy

Commander Vimes wrote: »

you see that's not a fair analogy. a better one would be someone is clipping off my fingers but has the door open and is not preventing me from leaving in any way. a suicidal person chooses to kill himself rather than walk out the door for some reason that i can't understand

No, what you have to understand -and I don't think you ever will - is that the door really isn't open to them.

you're making a big assumtion there. and as i said, if they get to tokyo, give it a chance and still hate themselves, they can still go ahead and kill themselves which goes to show that until a suicidal person has been to tokyo, its not a last resort

I think you are imagining a person that is feeling low. I'm not talking about someone who feels sad, I'm talking about someone who is close to the end because they hate themselves so much.

Moving away changes absolutely nothing for someone who is deeply depressed/ suicidal. It would almost definately be a good option for someone who is feeling bored with their life, feeling a bit low about how it's going, but not for someone who hates themselves (which I would guess is about 99% of suicidal people).

EDIT: And that malawi/ chernobyl bullsh!t is really annoying. If you think that then you have absolutely no right to ever be sad or angry with your situation. If you're dad dies, you should not feel sad because people in chernobyl's parents die AND they have the radiation! So you have no right to feel sad about your dad because other people have it worse.

And I think I'll bow out at this stage because through no fault of you're own you have no idea of what I'm talking about, which is a good thing I suppose. But unless you have any experience of it, then it's pointless for me to try to talk to you about it.

Sam Vimes

ztoical wrote: »

Alot of the time its nothing to do with location your in - if your clinical depressed it won't make a difference where in the world you are. I don't think people see it as a last resort or their only option, for some they don't think about it in that regardes. Like I've said before there is a difference between being depressed and clinical depressed and its hard for people who've never suffered from the later to understand what it feels like.

if you'll read above, you'll see i made an exception for those who are clinically depressed. they're depressed because of chemicals in their brain, not because of their environment.

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

No, what you have to understand -and I don't think you ever will - is that the door really isn't open to them.

i think you're right on that one. i like life and i can't understand someone who thinks there's no chance that they could ever change their life in such a way that they can be happy

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I think you are imagining a person that is feeling low. I'm not talking about someone who feels sad, I'm talking about someone who is close to the end because they hate themselves so much.

Moving away changes absolutely nothing for someone who is deeply depressed/ suicidal. It would almost definately be a good option for someone who is feeling bored with their life, feeling a bit low about how it's going, but not for someone who hates themselves (which I would guess is about 99% of suicidal people).

how do they know that moving away won't help until they try it?

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

EDIT: And that malawi/ chernobyl bullsh!t is really annoying. If you think that then you have absolutely no right to ever be sad or angry with your situation. If you're dad dies, you should not feel sad because people in chernobyl's parents die AND they have the radiation! So you have no right to feel sad about your dad because other people have it worse.

i never said they can't be sad but someone said they have the worst in life and they don't

Reku

Commander Vimes wrote: »

it can indeed railroad you. that's why you jump off the train and go to a place where the train can't get you anymore.

Jumping off the train= killing oneself, where the sod are you trying to go with your ramblings?

Commander Vimes wrote: »

i didn't say anything about undoing the past. i was talking about changing the future. if i understand you correctly, you're saying that people will always treat a suicidal person badly because of the personality type they have. tbh, it sounds to me like they just need to find better people to associate with. not everyone is a pr!ck

Broaden your mind a little, there are far worse ways for people to behave than to treat you poorly, let me know the day you reach over to hug your partner and find cuts accross their torso, something they only started to do after meeting you and then you'll understand why I choose to keep to myself in RL. Everyone I've ever genuinely opened up to has only started to hate life like I do. Some already were unhappy themselves so being around me just made it worse, but others were previously quite happy. Stay to myself and suffer alone or put everyone I'd claim to care about at risk of understanding all to well how I feel... I've regularly explained on PI depression can be contagious though no-one would class it as such. Like the saying goes: Misery loves company.... As such there are no simple answers regardless of what ignorant beliefs you may have on the topic.

Commander Vimes wrote: »

i'm obviously not talking about swapping lives with someone. i was making the point that if a person doesn't like their life, they should change it, not end it

To change one's life in the necessary fashion can often require changing themselves, would you want to live a life where you've to spend the rest of it being someone you really don't want to be.

Commander Vimes wrote: »

i don't believe in reincarnation but what you're suggesting there is exactly what i'm suggesting except in my scenario you don't have to die to switch plates and see if you like the new one, you just have to buy a plane ticket.

You just keep showing more and more how little your mind connects with reality, a holiday or trip abroad will not change how you feel about life, it's a break from localised stress which has nothing to do with long term depression.

Commander Vimes wrote: »

until they've put a foot in every city in the world and met every single person in the world to see if that person makes them happy, its not a last resort.

People are the same the world over, I've met & worked with people from every continent bar the polar ones, and I'm sorry to break it to you but the similarities go WAY beyond the differences.

Commander Vimes wrote: »

you're making the incorrect assumtion that because i'm on the internet i don't have experience in the matter

No, you're making it quite clear to everyone all on your own.:rolleyes:

Commander Vimes wrote: »

how about i bring you to malawi or maybe chernobyl? there you'll see people who've had the worst in life. what depressed people in ireland have is not the worst, its a perception of the worst

And you know what is important in life to the people in Chernobyl, what is important in life to me and to others who have been/are depressed? It's like assuming that because someone is popular that they can't be lonely.
Gees, I'm surprised your response to the fact that people still live in the area affected by the Chernobyl accident isn't simply: "Why don't they get on a plane and move somewhere else."

Commander Vimes wrote: »

you see that's not a fair analogy. a better one would be someone is clipping off my fingers but has the door open and is not preventing me from leaving in any way. a suicidal person chooses to kill himself rather than walk out the door for some reason that i can't understand

It's been all too clear you can't understand for the last few posts, people don't choose to be happy/unhappy, it's a reaction to events and their environment (not meaning location before you get confused with that simple differenciation again!), you can't wipe memories of the past so once something is set in motion it may be too hard to fix. Think to yourself how a simple song can trigger a whole cascade of memories due to reminding you of someone/somewhere, what if the memories were unhappy ones, what if that cascade never ended and just kept looping in your head?

Commander Vimes wrote: »

you're making a big assumtion there. and as i said, if they get to tokyo, give it a chance and still hate themselves, they can still go ahead and kill themselves which goes to show that until a suicidal person has been to tokyo, its not a last resort

:eek:You really are the most ignorant person I've ever encountered when it comes to emotion in others, either that or just a troll hoping for laughs, either that or your absolute refusal to accept that people are not simple minded creatures is perhaps more of a statement regarding your own mind.

Commander Vimes wrote: »

if you'll read above, you'll see i made an exception for those who are clinically depressed. they're depressed because of chemicals in their brain, not because of their environment.

Clinical depression is simply depression that has been diagnosed, it does not require any chemical imbalence, again you show your complete lack of any comprehension of the subject.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression[/url] wrote:

Clinical depression (also called major-depressive disorder or unipolar depression) is a common psychiatric disorder, characterized by a persistent lowering of mood, loss of interest in usual activities and diminished ability to experience pleasure.

While the term "depression" is commonly used to describe a temporary decreased mood when one "feels blue", clinical depression is a serious illness that involves the body, mood, and thoughts that cannot simply be willed or wished away. It is often a disabling disease that affects a person's work, family and school life, sleeping and eating habits, general health and ability to enjoy life.[1] The course of clinical depression varies widely: depression can be a once in a life-time event or have multiple recurrences, it can appear either gradually or suddenly, and either last for few months or be a life-long disorder. Having depression is a major risk factor for suicide; in addition, people with depression suffer from higher mortality from other causes.[2]

Clinical depression is usually treated by psychotherapy, antidepressants, or a combination of the two. Clinical depression may be a stand alone issue having differing features in patients, or as part of a larger medical issue, such as in patients with bipolar disorder or chronic pain.

Stercus Accidit

Commander Vimes wrote: »

you're making a big assumtion there. and as i said, if they get to tokyo, give it a chance and still hate themselves, they can still go ahead and kill themselves which goes to show that until a suicidal person has been to tokyo, its not a last resort

I didnt say that, literaly, thats a misquote

Commander Vimes wrote: »

you're making the incorrect assumtion that because i'm on the internet i don't have experience in the matter

Putting words in my mouth and reading my mind.

My assumption is that you have thought less about this than someone who constsantly feels this way.

And the malawi thing? Of course things are awful there, but I'm sure no-one there commits suicide either, just here, its a symptom of western culture only.(sarcastic)

Many of your points seem to degrade anyone who is suicidal or depressed, the aul chuff up, get out there and move on attitude saved no-one, its that attitude of I know best you're wrong that isolates these people.

Edit: I think you do mean that there is alternatives, and options for people in these situations, that I agree with, expecting people in that situation to agree with you and be logical is a poor assumption.
And running away to some other country is not the best situation, family and friends if you have them combined with some councilling are the best option, getting this through when most depressed people are hiding their problems is difficult.
The loneliness will kill them in some far flung place.

Depressed people dont see the options you may see for them, and a less condescending approach may save them.

Reku

Think I've figured out what's up with his/her posts, they were all meant to go here

Sam Vimes

farohar wrote: »

Jumping off the train= killing oneself, where the sod are you trying to go with your ramblings?

sigh. i suppose i'll spell it out for you: in my metaphor you wait for the train to stop. what you're doing there is making the assumption that what i'm saying is going to be stupid before you've read it and then creatively misunderstanding it to make it fit your preconception

farohar wrote: »

To change one's life in the necessary fashion can often require changing themselves, would you want to live a life where you've to spend the rest of it being someone you really don't want to be.

of course it would require changing themselves. currently they're depressed and suicidal and they want to change that. or do they consider their depression such an integral part of their identity that they wouldn't want to change it?

farohar wrote: »

You just keep showing more and more how little your mind connects with reality, a holiday or trip abroad will not change how you feel about life, it's a break from localised stress which has nothing to do with long term depression.

i'm not talking about a holiday. that would of course not do any good except for the time they were away from their troubles. i'm talking about a complete change in their lives.

farohar wrote: »

People are the same the world over, I've met & worked with people from every continent bar the polar ones, and I'm sorry to break it to you but the similarities go WAY beyond the differences.

what's your point? yes people are often quite similar, this is true. but, and its a very important but, to make the assumption that no one will ever make you happy without getting out there and meeting some of them is ridiculous imo

farohar wrote: »

And you know what is important in life to the people in Chernobyl, what is important in life to me and to others who have been/are depressed? It's like assuming that because someone is popular that they can't be lonely.
Gees, I'm surprised your response to the fact that people still live in the area affected by the Chernobyl accident isn't simply: "Why don't they get on a plane and move somewhere else."

i didn't assume anything of the sort. i repeat again, i was simply pointing out that there are people worse off, contrary to what the poster was saying. i was not making any implication from it. i was simply stating the fact. please try not to misunderstand it a third time.

farohar wrote: »

:eek:You really are the most ignorant person I've ever encountered when it comes to emotion in others, either that or just a troll hoping for laughs, either that or your absolute refusal to accept that people are not simple minded creatures is perhaps more of a statement regarding your own mind.

to give you some perpective on my experience, a member of my family was in st. pat's for a while.


you seem to be somehow proud of your depression and want to guard it against anyone who might suggest something that might make you happy. all i've said is that a complete and permanent change of scenery might help someone who is depressed because of environmental factors (as opposed to chemically induced depression) and that a suicidal person should try it before ending their life. because of this you've insulted me. so go on being depressed if you're so proud of it. i couldn't really give a ****

Motosam wrote: »

Depressed people dont see the options you may see for them, and a less condescending approach may save them.

well if someone's determined to be depressed and refuses to try things that might help, i don't think anything will save them

ztoical

Commander Vimes wrote: »

. all i've said is that a complete and permanent change of scenery might help someone who is depressed because of environmental factors (as opposed to chemically induced depression) and that a suicidal person should try it before ending their life. because of this you've insulted me. so go on being depressed if you're so proud of it. i couldn't really give a ****

for people suffering from bullying, mental abuse, sexual abuse etc etc its not so simple to just pack up and leave. There is the fear that your attacker will find you and death seems like the only way to escape them. Even for people whose attacker might be dead, there is still that fear. If your depressed due to enviromental factors like abuse, money issues, weight issues, etc etc you can suffer night terrors/nightmares and simple moving to a new enviroment won't make those go away. Lots of people who suffered abuse as children, commit suicide years later when it seemed like they'd moved on [got jobs, partners, children etc etc] but the anguish eats at them. Plenty of people live through horrific ordeals only to kill themselves years later.

If the route cause of your depression is enviromental and you leave the enviroment your depression doesn't simple just go away, you still have to deal with and the route cause of your depression is no longer there for you to deal. Its why I would be againist doctors giving out drugs to deal with depression as they only mask it, they don't cure it and you still have to deal with it at some point. A balance of drugs and counseling should always be offered.

For someone who kills themself because they are gay you could say why didn't they move somewhere were gays are accepted but what if that person thought that being gay was wrong. If their religion/belief system told them being gay was wrong but they can't change who they are. Trying to "not be gay" to marry and have children is just going to put some much extra stress on them. They are not going to move somewhere full of gay people and moving anywhere else isn't going to help because at the end of the day they would be bringing their problemes with them. If they belive their family would be disgusted or ashamed of them for being gay they may belive that their family would prefer they were not alive then gay. It might sound extreme but sadly its alot more common then people realise.

Sam Vimes

ztoical wrote: »

If the route cause of your depression is enviromental and you leave the enviroment your depression doesn't simple just go away, you still have to deal with and the route cause of your depression is no longer there for you to deal.

i know it won't simply go away but if you're in a completely unfamiliar place and no one from your old life is there you can have a fresh start and fill your life with different things to think about. you have to admit that if something is eating away at someone, getting away from the places and people that they associate with that thing can't hurt and should at least be tried before ending it all

Motosam wrote: »

Its why I would be againist doctors giving out drugs to deal with depression as they only mask it, they don't cure it and you still have to deal with it at some point. A balance of drugs and counseling should always be offered.

oh absolutely. those drugs just mask the symptoms and make the person feel worse because they're not getting better and they think they should be because they're taking them. my family member only started to get better when he/she stopped taking them

Motosam wrote: »

For someone who kills themself because they are gay you could say why didn't they move somewhere were gays are accepted but what if that person thought that being gay was wrong. If their religion/belief system told them being gay was wrong but they can't change who they are.

don't get me started on religious belief tbh. if you want to get yourself some needless guilt, join a religion.

Motosam wrote: »

Trying to "not be gay" to marry and have children is just going to put some much extra stress on them. They are not going to move somewhere full of gay people and moving anywhere else isn't going to help because at the end of the day they would be bringing their problemes with them. If they belive their family would be disgusted or ashamed of them for being gay they may belive that their family would prefer they were not alive then gay. It might sound extreme but sadly its alot more common then people realise.

well it sounds to me like such a person is depressed because they're being prevented from being themselves. That is a very difficult situation to be in, but of course does not warrant suicide because nothing does

You say that the person thinks the family would rather he be dead than gay but what if he moves to bolivia (randomly chosen) and has no contact with them? then he never needs to tell his family and he's no longer in an environment that encourages him to be ashamed of who he is. worth a shot at least?



i'm not saying that changing the environment will definitely work, in fact it probably won't. all i'm saying is that suicide is permanent and no one knows what might happen tomorrow that could change everything for the better and a complete life change might just encourage such an up-turn

look at george hooke. he was suicidal in his younger days and look how things changed for him. if he'd gone through with it i'd have nothing to listen to on my way home from work!

azezil

Karoma wrote: »

Your life has its "up's and downs". It's your opinion that it's a selfish act based on your circumstances. Not everyone has "loved ones" who give a damn.

I LOVDED YOU KAROMY! I LOOOOVDED YOUUUUUUU

ztoical

Commander Vimes wrote: »

i know it won't simply go away but if you're in a completely unfamiliar place and no one from your old life is there you can have a fresh start and fill your life with different things to think about. you have to admit that if something is eating away at someone, getting away from the places and people that they associate with that thing can't hurt and should at least be tried before ending it all

Like i said people who have suffered abuse as children, have grown up, moved away, started new lives, had children, made friends, hold good jobs and still end up killing themselves. I've thankfully never suffered abuse of that sort and can't imagine what it must be like. I feel sorry for those people, in alot of cases what ever choices they had in life were taken from them by their abuser.

Commander Vimes wrote: »

don't get me started on religious belief tbh. if you want to get yourself some needless guilt, join a religion.

O i agree, I'm not religious never have been and my family isn't either. While my depression was chemical and therefore not down to enviroment or abuse I do belive not being religious helped me from not falling alot further then I did.

Commander Vimes wrote: »

well it sounds to me like such a person is depressed because they're being prevented from being themselves. That is a very difficult situation to be in, but of course does not warrant suicide because nothing does

You say that the person thinks the family would rather he be dead than gay but what if he moves to bolivia (randomly chosen) and has no contact with them? then he never needs to tell his family and he's no longer in an environment that encourages him to be ashamed of who he is. worth a shot at least?

If you've been raised your whole life in a doctrine it is very very hard to get out of it. Look at middle america where they have all the camps to un-gay people....people talk about the familes that send their kids and loved ones to those camps but there are alot of people who go to those camps of their own free will cus they do belive something is wrong with them that needs to be fixed. If I tell you [I'm going to assume your a boy for this example] that being gay is evil and a sign of the devil from the moment your born and after 14 years of hearing that you find yourself attracted to another man, what are you going to think? Right now its getting better as more gay people are being shown on tv in a postive light but if you've lived in a sheltered enviroment were all you've heard is gay=evil, your going to think the devil is inside you and when all the de-gaying camps fail, your going to find yourself in a very desperate place. Most find away out, they either accept who they are, leave their families and go build a life or they deny who they are and be what their familes want. Some people can't make the choice and choose to end their lives.

Theres a fantastic film called Latter days about a young man in the mormon church who is coming to terms with being gay in the church of latter day saints. The films director is actually a gay mormon and the two main characters are both based on different aspects of his life dealing with his religion and his sexuality. One of the characters is outed for being gay but the church and family means so much he goes home to face them and is excommunicated. He attempts sucide but fails [its a film so of course there is a happy ending]

Now I am very close friends with a guy who is mormon and I wouldn't judge his religion as its not my place. The church of latter day saints places alot of importance on family and my friend is really really close to his. the church holds the veiw that people who are gay are mentally ill and should be locked up and treated for it. Imagine being raised your whole life to belive your family is the keystone to your world and then having to be made to chose between them and not being yourself or be yourself and a life without them?

I'm not picking on the church of latter day saints it just came to my mind cus of the film. Try being gay in some muslim countries were you will be killed for being gay but the other option is to move to a none muslim country and for some their up bringing in their faith is to strong.

Also for some the act of sucide isn't a last resort option - for some it is seen as them taking control - this may sound very hard for some to understand who haven't had to deal with it but if your being abused or bullied you feel you have no control over your own life. Some people developed eating disorders as they feel controling what they eat is them having power over something in their lives. For some people sucide is them taking control back for their won life - if someone or something is controlling their life then they will gain control by destroying that life. Prisoners on death row would be a kind of example, they are put on sucide watch as many take their own lives, cus even if thou they are going to be killed, they would rather take their own life as they feel they have some control over the when and how.

Stercus Accidit

Commander Vimes wrote: »

well if someone's determined to be depressed and refuses to try things that might help, i don't think anything will save them

No-one is determined to be depressed, you are or you aren't, Christ you think anyone chooses misery? I call troll here, or at least massive ignorance combined with stubbornness.

Also,

Why are you putting my username on quotes I didnt make?

As above in your previous post. Get the multi quoting right if you insist on this endless rebuttal quest.

Karoma

azezil wrote: »

I LOVDED YOU KAROMY! I LOOOOVDED YOUUUUUUU

WHYYYY IS HIS HEAD SOO BIGGGG?


Commander Vimes: if you need a hand with the multi-quote, try testing in Test or let me know. (Not being a smart-arse here. )

Stercus Accidit

Seriously Mr. Vimes, admitting depression is usually a massive step, most would be in denial, and trying the whole chear up, whats wrong with me bull.

If someone is depressed, and has admitted it, they have already tried most of the shi... things you have suggested.

Tell an alcoholic, STOP, dont be pretending to be alcoholic, dont drink any more, well halleluia!
What are the odds of that working? Why do aa members admit their problem before solving it?

You have to accept people get depresed, and they have to realise they are to help themselves. Denial, what does that lead to? Denial and a lack of acceptance of the realities of depression are factors in suicide. And that attitude is rife in this country.

Your attitude is also part of the problem, not the solution.

Am I wasting my time here?

This thread is the best thing I've seen in AH in a long time, and this thread really seems to have opened a can of worms. I think it is massively important to discuss this problem objectively, not to satisfy ones ego.

Reku

ztoical wrote: »

and can't imagine what it must be like. I feel sorry for those people, in alot of cases what ever choices they had in life were taken from them by their abuser.

I think this is exactly where Commander Vines' problem is, he's got it into his head that somehow he understands exactly how someone feels when he has never been there himself. Just because a family member is in love does that mean you suddenly understand how everyone who is, will be or ever has been in love feels? No, we are all different. Do I claim to understand exactly how my sibling felt when they tried to kill themselves, no, I'd have a better idea than those who've never been there but the exact things going through their head are going to be different to what went through mine.

Attitudes like Vines' I'd imagine are a large part of many people don't admit depression as readily as they might many other conditions, having someone tell you that they have no real personal experience of the condition and yet that they know how you feel and come up with completely ridiculous ways to get better while belittling you further by implying that it's a simple thing to get over and so you must be choosing to continue to suffer from it, not exactly something anyone would look forward to....

ztoical wrote: »

O i agree, I'm not religious never have been and my family isn't either. While my depression was chemical and therefore not down to enviroment or abuse I do belive not being religious helped me from not falling alot further then I did.

Helped me hold off for 5 years, more so out of fear of Hell and the whole thing of it being an unforgiveable act than anything else, it did become much easier all the times after that. While I may not care much for the majority of organised religions at this point in my life they do at least have their upsides.

Stercus Accidit

farohar wrote: »

Attitudes like Vines' I'd imagine are a large part of many people don't admit depression as readily as they might many other conditions, having someone tell you that they have no real personal experience of the condition and yet that they know how you feel and come up with completely ridiculous ways to get better while belittling you further by implying that it's a simple thing to get over and so you must be choosing to continue to suffer from it, not exactly something anyone would look forward to....

Put well.

Sam Vimes

farohar wrote: »

I think this is exactly where Commander Vines' problem is, he's got it into his head that somehow he understands exactly how someone feels when he has never been there himself.

all i've said is that a change of scenery is worth a shot before ending your life. in no way did i imply that i understand exactly how anyone feels.

ztoical wrote: »

Like i said people who have suffered abuse as children, have grown up, moved away, started new lives, had children, made friends, hold good jobs and still end up killing themselves. I've thankfully never suffered abuse of that sort and can't imagine what it must be like. I feel sorry for those people, in alot of cases what ever choices they had in life were taken from them by their abuser.

i know it can still happen when they change their environment. i'm simply saying that its something that should be tried before doing something drastic. what is so f*cking wrong with that?

ztoical wrote: »

If you've been raised your whole life in a doctrine it is very very hard to get out of it. Look at middle america where they have all the camps to un-gay people....people talk about the familes that send their kids and loved ones to those camps but there are alot of people who go to those camps of their own free will cus they do belive something is wrong with them that needs to be fixed. If I tell you [I'm going to assume your a boy for this example] that being gay is evil and a sign of the devil from the moment your born and after 14 years of hearing that you find yourself attracted to another man, what are you going to think? Right now its getting better as more gay people are being shown on tv in a postive light but if you've lived in a sheltered enviroment were all you've heard is gay=evil, your going to think the devil is inside you and when all the de-gaying camps fail, your going to find yourself in a very desperate place. Most find away out, they either accept who they are, leave their families and go build a life or they deny who they are and be what their familes want. Some people can't make the choice and choose to end their lives.

yes indeed some people's lot in life is bad and religion is quite often the cause of that. i just can't understand why someone would rather die than move away from the people who are telling him he's evil. he can always kill himself afterwards if it doesn't help

having said that, i don't believe in god so i can't see things from the perspective of someone who believes that their almighty creator hates them. In that case, suicide could be actually seen as a valid option from their perspective. from my own perspective as an atheist, this is the only life any of us will ever get so i can't understand why a healthy person wouldn't do everything they can to preserve it. I'll be worm food someday no matter what i do so i might as well get as many experiences in before that happens. no?

Motosam wrote: »

No-one is determined to be depressed, you are or you aren't, Christ you think anyone chooses misery? I call troll here, or at least massive ignorance combined with stubbornness.

if someone refuses to try things that might help their situation, i call that being determined. what do you call it?

Motosam wrote: »

Why are you putting my username on quotes I didnt make?

sorry about that. lost track of quoting

Karoma wrote: »

Commander Vimes: if you need a hand with the multi-quote, try testing in Test or let me know. (Not being a smart-arse here. )

i don't need help with it. i know exactly how to use it but i wasn't using it. i was posting from my phone which doesn't have the multi-quote facility

Motosam wrote: »

If someone is depressed, and has admitted it, they have already tried most of the shi... things you have suggested.

i have suggested one thing and one thing only. the fact that there are irish suicide victims that have not been abroad means they haven't tried it

Motosam wrote: »

Tell an alcoholic, STOP, dont be pretending to be alcoholic, dont drink any more, well halleluia!
What are the odds of that working? Why do aa members admit their problem before solving it?

that's not what i'm suggesting and i'm not suggesting denial either. all i'm saying is that if someone feels they want to end their life, they should get a change of scenery and have no plan to go back to the environment in which they became depressed, for no other reason than there is a small chance that it might help their situation.

can you please tell me of a valid reason why a person SHOULDN'T try moving abroad before committing suicide? either a person can commit suicide, or they can try making a new life for themselves and then commit suicide if it doesn't work out. why is it a bad idea?

Maple

Commander Vimes wrote: »

all i've said is that a change of scenery is worth a shot before ending your life. in no way did i imply that i understand exactly how anyone feels.

i know it can still happen when they change their environment. i'm simply saying that its something that should be tried before doing something drastic. what is so f*cking wrong with that?

can you please tell me of a valid reason why a person SHOULDN'T try moving abroad before committing suicide? either a person can commit suicide, or they can try making a new life for themselves and then commit suicide if it doesn't work out. why is it a bad idea?

it is a valid point, why shouldn't they try to forge a new life for themselves abroad away from what ails them? But its a logical answer, and in my experience logic does not always apply to an emotive situation like someone being depressed and wanting to commit suicide.

People need to deal with whats bothering them, and you can only bury something inside for so long before it comes back to bite you in the ass. Getting on a plane is really only like climbing into a bubble, sooner or later it will burst.

With regards to your point about people being determined to be depressed, I get what you mean. It is frustrating and infuriating looking at someone and trying to help them and get them to try different things to help change their situation for the better and they steadfastedly refuse to do it, it can appear that they are wallowing in their own misery.

But you are well in your own head, I'm not trying to glorify it at all as some sort of special members only club but you don't get it. Logic does not apply. depression is the bleakest place in the world. Put simply its like all the colour is gone from the world, its grim. And getting out of bed is an achievement. Things you take for granted are like milestones to a person who is depressed. Its the coldest and loneliest place in the world.

nordie22

Hey guys, I was wondering if any of you could help me. I'm doing a radio documentary on suicide prevention but I don't know anyone personally who has been affected by it, either through losing a loved one or contemplating it themselves. Would anyone be willing to talk about their experience? I understand it's an awful thing and really hard to relive but it would be a really important part of the project and it might help to talk about it... any ideas/advice?

Loopy

Never thought about doing it.

People says its a cowardly act but I believe its the most courageous thing anyone could do. Its the persons choice and some people just dont want to be on this earth.

Someone very close to me did it 12 yrs ago and Im still suffering from it but I have to accept they just didnt want to be here anymore.

ThrownAway

life is a rollercoaster just got to ride it...

tech77

ThrownAway wrote: »

life is a rollercoaster just got to ride it...

Eh OK.
That would be the Ronan Keating approach to depression...
Are you going for most glib comment of the year or something
Good trolling (if you are trolling) though.

Seriously though maple makes a good point.
Depression is a whole mindset that's not easy to shake- so telling someone to just take a trip ain't really going to work.

Elessar

looptheloop wrote: »

Never thought about doing it.

People says its a cowardly act but I believe its the most courageous thing anyone could do. Its the persons choice and some people just dont want to be on this earth.

Someone very close to me did it 12 yrs ago and Im still suffering from it but I have to accept they just didnt want to be here anymore.

I agree. Some people just are not meant for this world, and would never cope. While it's always sad to see someone kill themselves, noone has any obligations to be here and death, just like living, is just another choice. It is the ultimate expression of human freedom, and takes more "courage" than anything I can think of. It is very selfish for other people to coerce people to live just so they don't have to suffer themselves.

That said, only some people ever genuinely want to die, and there is much that life has to offer. So I've never truly contemplated it.

Tigrrrr

WindSock wrote: »

I think it is more selfish to make a miserable person stick around if they really don't want to.

I actually think this is one of the best points brought up so far. What's our "intelligent" preoccupation with life anyway? I understand that it's completely natural, but why don't we see beyond sentimentality or nature and understand that some people would just prefer to be dead. Sometimes we need to respect that, surely?

N1njapirate

There's a 'game' of Copycat stirring around my hometown in the last few weeks.. Best friends have committed suicide and a girl has been taking into care for attempt.

..although the game sounds quite er... fun, I'm not tempted..

Niamho!

Never. never ever ever.

I'venever been that low.
I've known people who have, its just awful. devastating.