Suicide

Raekwon

I think mental health is still a very grey area in Ireland. I'm not up to date on the figures but I remember a while ago that we had one of the highest suicide rates in the world (especially for young men). Of course it is hardly surprising with the backwards mentality that some people have here, the ol’ "Ah sure you'll be grand" attitude and not to mention the leader of our government coming up with this gem:

Bertie Ahern wrote:

I don't know why people who engage in cribbing and moaning about the economy don't commit suicide.

:rolleyes:

Anyway, back when I was 19 I dropped out of college and for a couple of months I was very depressed. I had no direction in life, no girlfriend at the time and my friends back then were all selfish a**holes (they really were, not just my opinion). I have to admit the thought of suicide did cross my mind more then once & I actually went to see a mental health counsellor as a result because my parents were worried about me. The person I saw was a neanderthal who dismissed me as being a 'pessimist' & told me that at 19 I should be out enjoying life with my friends That was it! No anti-depressants or anything. Luckily my parents supported me 100% and thanks to them I got through my depression and eventually sorted myself out. But my god the mental health 'professionals' back then were about as useful as tits on a bull! I hope they have improved since then.

Jesus Wept

Bah, found this thread intersting Pre-Vimes, then a struggle to read.
Nothing personal Vimes, I just disagree with most of everything you had to say on the subject.

Sam Vimes

The-Rigger wrote: »

Bah, found this thread intersting Pre-Vimes, then a struggle to read.
Nothing personal Vimes, I just disagree with most of everything you had to say on the subject.

all i ever said was someone should try a change of scenery before killing themselves. everything else was people putting words in my mouth. how can you possibly disagree with that?

i just can't comprehend how someone can think that there is absolutely no possibility that their life will ever get any better and end their life without trying something so simple as a prolonged change of scenery. how can they be so sure that there is no one and no place on the planet that can make them happy?

Jesus Wept

Sam Vimes wrote: »

all i ever said was someone should try a change of scenery before killing themselves. everything else was people putting words in my mouth. how can you possibly disagree with that?

i just can't comprehend how someone can think that there is absolutely no possibility that their life will ever get any better and end their life without trying something so simple as a prolonged change of scenery. how can they be so sure that there is no one and no place on the planet that can make them happy?

Because depression is almost never about location. You are in your head, no matter where you are geographically.

Sam Vimes

The-Rigger wrote: »

Because depression is almost never about location. You are in your head, no matter where you are geographically.

maybe it is, maybe it isn't but they don't know until they try it. I didn't say it was a magic bullet to solve all problems and i didn't say that all depression is caused by the environment. All i said was its worth a shot

Rb

I've never considered killing myself and hopefully never will.

However, I can understand how things can get so bad for a person that they'd consider it, or if they suffer from depression or another illness, and I also support their right to do it should they decide to.

Thirdfox

I have considered the philosophical implications of one less human being on Earth - in the grand scheme of things does it matter?

(Obviously I decided yes it does matter and I'm still here) but not that I was depressed or anything, more of a (hopefully) deep look at life and what is the meaning behind it.

Made me a better person I would think - everyone should ask themselves what they are living for and why they are alive. Makes you appreciate life all that more.

Chunky Monkey

Sam Vimes wrote: »

maybe it is, maybe it isn't but they don't know until they try it. I didn't say it was a magic bullet to solve all problems and i didn't say that all depression is caused by the environment. All i said was its worth a shot

That's a rather naive view. When someone is feeling very down they aren't going to be thinking logically.

Stercus Accidit

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

That's a rather naive view. When someone is feeling very down they aren't going to be thinking logically.

This lad reiterated the same nonsensical argument again and again despite ample counterargument he would ignore it and make the same uninformed point.

I argued with many of his post back in the first run of this thread and I'll be damned if I repeat myself again and again to someone who will not listen or reply based on my points, rather ignoring them repeatedly.

I'm not bothered at this stage.

aoife000

slipss wrote: »

So I remember seeing some american survey in the run up to christmass that suggested that one in nine people have considered suicide at some point in thier lives. So I just figured I'd start up this thread to see if the numbers match up on boards. Ever considered topping yourself?

when i was in my early teens i carried round painkillers i fully intended to overdose on. there was just so much **** going on at that time. thankfully life got better.. how it would affect my 'loved ones' was the furthest thing from my mind at the time...

aidan_dunne

Several attempts, and know I probably will again in the future.

Sad, but true.

Sam Vimes

Motosam wrote: »

This lad reiterated the same nonsensical argument again and again despite ample counterargument he would ignore it and make the same uninformed point.

I argued with many of his post back in the first run of this thread and I'll be damned if I repeat myself again and again to someone who will not listen or reply based on my points, rather ignoring them repeatedly.

I'm not bothered at this stage.

i kept on repeating the statement because people seemed to think i was saying something other than i was actually saying. A counter argument isn't much use if its to a point i didn't make. that was the only point i wanted to make but the whole thing kept getting sidetracked.

i also kept repeating the point because i have yet to see a reason why its such a bad idea that i get called a troll for suggesting it. The closest anyone has come is chunky monkey there saying they're not thinking logically, which i take to mean that it might actually help but they're too trapped in the cycle of depression to realise it. Is that what you meant chunky?

Kooli

Sam Vimes wrote: »

if someone refuses to try things that might help their situation, i call that being determined. what do you call it?


I'd call it depression


can you please tell me of a valid reason why a person SHOULDN'T try moving abroad before committing suicide? either a person can commit suicide, or they can try making a new life for themselves and then commit suicide if it doesn't work out. why is it a bad idea?

No one's saying they SHOULDN'T. It's just an over simplistic solution that demonstrates a total misunderstanding of the nature of depression, and the difficulties faced by those suffering from it. Difficulty seeing any hope, difficulty finding pleasure in anything, difficulty motivating oneself to do ANYTHING - that includes getting out of BED, let alone moving to another country and all the preparation and commitment that involves

Raekwon

Lads you are ruining an interesting thread with you petty arguments!

Kooli

Whoops, not too good at quoting!
That 'I'd call it depression' in the above quote is written by me, it's not a quote.

Sam Vimes

Kooli wrote: »

No one's saying they SHOULDN'T. It's just an over simplistic solution that demonstrates a total misunderstanding of the nature of depression, and the difficulties faced by those suffering from it. Difficulty seeing any hope, difficulty finding pleasure in anything, difficulty motivating oneself to do ANYTHING - that includes getting out of BED, let alone moving to another country and all the preparation and commitment that involves

fair enough so. lets call it a logical "solution"* to an illogical problem. i just know that i've seen it help massively before. a close friend used to be very depressed to the point of cutting himself etc. as i see it his depression was caused by 5 things:

1. he was a very quiet person and tried to avoid conflict and always please everyone

2. his brother was extremely loud and agressive so there was constant fighting in the house and he took all the parents' attention, leaving my friend neglected

3. his mother was very critical of him and nothing he did was ever good enough for her

4. he had a very pessimistic and depressing girlfriend that would never give him a moment's peace. they were in the same class in school and she'd come back to his house every day etc.

5. people would walk all over him because he was so passive and never stood up for himself


basically he dumped the girlfriend and moved out of the house and through an awful lot of coaxing from myself and a few others he realised that if he wasn't happy with someone he should say it to them and not let them sh!t all over him and get depressed about it later. he still has some times when it gets the better of him, usually after a few days spent in the company of his mother but i just remind him that its impossible to please his mother because she's always looking for something to criticise and he remembers that its best to just ignore her. he's now a million times happier and tells people to f*ck off if they piss him off, as a healthy person should

this is one case where depression was caused by environmental factors. i realise there are different types which cannot be helped the same way

*i put solution in quotes because i know no one would be completely cured by changing their environment

togster

I just read terrys thread. Dude first of all i'm sorry about the jibes about drinking. Secondly good luck with everything. if anything it has highlighted for me what a sheltered childhood i had and the events which can lead someone to contemplate suicide. A friend of mine shot himself when we were 14 and i could never understand why. He was the type of guy you could never imagine doing that. I have never even remotely got to that point in my own life, really makes you appreciate what others endure.

Naked Lepper

Karoma wrote: »

Your life has its "up's and downs". It's your opinion that it's a selfish act based on your circumstances. Not everyone has "loved ones" who give a damn. I'm amazed at how so many people who've never been in the same position as others can judge it out of hand as "selfish".
I don't entirely disagree, I just question your right to judge.

suicide is one of the most selfish acts that one can ever commit.

togster

Naked Lepper wrote: »

suicide is one of the most selfish acts that one can ever commit.

So's posting just for a reaction.

Stercus Accidit

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i kept on repeating the statement because people seemed to think i was saying something other than i was actually saying. A counter argument isn't much use if its to a point i didn't make. that was the only point i wanted to make but the whole thing kept getting sidetracked.

i also kept repeating the point because i have yet to see a reason why its such a bad idea that i get called a troll for suggesting it. The closest anyone has come is chunky monkey there saying they're not thinking logically, which i take to mean that it might actually help but they're too trapped in the cycle of depression to realise it. Is that what you meant chunky?

I did address your points, specifically, but you chose to multi quote weaker arguments than the ones I made, ignoring mine.

I'm not saying my arguments were special but I did aim them at your points while other less focused points were the ones you took up on.

I made my arguments once, I don't wish to do so again.


The early pages of this thread did some good, anyone affected by this issue would do well to read them, and I would recommend them to do so.

Hrududu

basically he dumped the girlfriend and moved out of the house and through an awful lot of coaxing from myself and a few others he realised that if he wasn't happy with someone he should say it to them and not let them sh!t all over him and get depressed about it later. he still has some times when it gets the better of him, usually after a few days spent in the company of his mother but i just remind him that its impossible to please his mother because she's always looking for something to criticise and he remembers that its best to just ignore her. he's now a million times happier and tells people to f*ck off if they piss him off, as a healthy person should

I really don't know all that much about depression but from what you are describing your friend had tough circumstances that depressed him. And in his case you are right changing his circumstances helped him. But I was under the impression that clinical depression isnt about circumstances its about an imbalance of chemicals in the brain. So you could have someone who has a great job, great partner, everyone loves him, yet this imbalance causes a depression that he can do nothing about.

So changing ones circumstances will do nothing for clinical depression.

But changing ones circumstances could help when a person is depressed because of their circumstances.

I could be wrong though, like I said I don't know too much about it.

Sam Vimes

Motosam wrote: »

I did address your points, specifically, but you chose to multi quote weaker arguments than the ones I made, ignoring mine.

I'm not saying my arguments were special but I did aim them at your points while other less focused points were the ones you took up on.

I made my arguments once, I don't wish to do so again.


The early pages of this thread did some good, anyone affected by this issue would do well to read them, and I would recommend them to do so.

if i did ignore your arguments it wasn't intentional. i was posting from a phone and it can be quite difficult to navigate. i apologise

Hrududu wrote: »

I really don't know all that much about depression but from what you are describing your friend had tough circumstances that depressed him. And in his case you are right changing his circumstances helped him. But I was under the impression that clinical depression isnt about circumstances its about an imbalance of chemicals in the brain. So you could have someone who has a great job, great partner, everyone loves him, yet this imbalance causes a depression that he can do nothing about.

So changing ones circumstances will do nothing for clinical depression.

But changing ones circumstances could help when a person is depressed because of their circumstances.

I could be wrong though, like I said I don't know too much about it.

i've accepted that point. someone else i know had clinical depression and no amount of changing circumstances would have helped her. as you say, it was a chemical imbalance in her brain causing the depression and it had nothing to do with her circumstances

Stercus Accidit

Sam Vimes wrote: »

if i did ignore your arguments it wasn't intentional. i was posting from a phone and it can be quite difficult to navigate. i apologise

Apology accepted.

I did not mean to appear to be attacking you, I just strongly disagree with your stance, and I may have come across as aggressive in my posts, which I do not wish to do.

I just have a strong view on this subject, as do many others.

Bunnywabbit*

Well, to be honest I think Irish doctor's...etc are being too free in handing out anti-depressants, and it has actually been said that if we had more facilities and capable people to contact, a lot of people could get the councelling they need without drugs of some sort...

Suicide is not the natural order of things, this should be the first sign of the state of the mindset of someone in that position and what something I find is so awful is that suicide is a permanant solution to a tempory problem.

36Degrees

yeah. dont think I'd actually do it though, it would totally destroy my parentals

Steve.Pseudonym

Interesting the number of people who've seriously thought about suicide or attempted it, 29%, that's some serious over-representation. I wonder why it's so high, probably the demograph of the typical boards user (male, 20 - 35). Like someone said, interesting thread before the arguing started. Terry I repect your honesty alot, your story was an interesting read. Made me think about some parallels with my own life, although you had things rougher than I did I'd say.

As for me, attempted when I was younger. For a period as a teenager I was seriously depressed, although I never got any help for it. Drugs et cetera came around thereafter. One thing I learned is that schools really, honestly don't give a flying fúck about their students. You can show all the signs and nothing happens, at least nothing did for me. Leaving that stuff up to the parents I guess, only problem is that if you have a kid who's seriously depressed most likely they've got problems at home anyway, meaning the school should be the first line of help.

I don't think that you ever entirely recover from that kind of depression, I know that as I never had treatment possibly I'm wrong, but I think however much things improve it's still there lurking in the back of your mind, waiting for a big enough negative event to kick it back off. Don't get me wrong though, suicide is off the cards for me and has been for years, I'm just saying that depression sticks around.

There, now hopefully the thread will become nice and sombre again!

Nightwish

Terry's story was one of the most thought provoking posts I've ever read here. It kinda puts my own story into perspective. I suffered from depression throughout my teens and its was exacerbated when I moved to Dublin to go to college. I was diagnosed as bi-polar at 19. Suicide was always something on my mind and even to this day I would never proclaim it as a selfish deed.
Getting help for myself was something which wasn't that difficult as the college had doctors/counsellors etc but outside in the "real world" it isnt so easy. I had found a friend shortly after an attempt where she OD'd on pills and after she was discharged from hospital she went on a health board waiting list for counselling. She was eventually seen 9 months later. It disgusted me so much at the time and still does.
Why have ad's about looking after your mental health when there are no services to back it up.

MarinoMark

I wonder how many of those single car deaths in the small hours are suicide, but are added to the road death count, rather than the suicide count ??

Latchy

Have considered it at various times in my life but having the balls to actually carry out and do it + the selfishness (imo ) of leaving dependent family members behind (whom i love dearly ) is enough reason to put me off .

Susannahmia

Susannahmia wrote: »

But that family member will most likely blame themselves, which is worse.

How is it worse than living a miserable hopeless bloody life just because a family member might feel bad.
It annoys the hell out of me to hear people who havent a bloody clue prattling on about the pain of the family members left behind without one fscking word about the pain of the people who felt SO BAD for so long they felt driven to the act of suicide.
ffs.
And don't get me started on the idea of guilt tripping someone about their family who's already that low .

Raekwon

Nightwish wrote: »

I had found a friend shortly after an attempt where she OD'd on pills and after she was discharged from hospital she went on a health board waiting list for counselling. She was eventually seen 9 months later. It disgusted me so much at the time and still does.
Why have ad's about looking after your mental health when there are no services to back it up.

+1

I'm not sure if you read my previous post by I forgot to mention that something similar happened to me. I was in a bad way for a few months (years ago, when I was 19) and a councillor made an appointment for me in St. John of Gods in Stillorgan four weeks after we talked. That was pushed back twice and I eventually went to see them 3 months after the original date where I was dismissed as a 'pessimist' and sent on my way then sent me a bill! I was very low after that and my parents were amazingly supportive of me and that helped me immensely to battle through my depression.

I don't think that there is any real support in this country outside the non-profit or charity organisations. The government of this county couldn’t careless and that is where a large part of the problem lies.

Nightwish

Thats terrible that they were so dismissive of your condition. I must say that the 1st doctor whom I approached for help (a college GP) took one look at me and said that it was just a phase I was going through and I'd grow out of it. Then made a smart remark about the clothes I was wearing. Its can be so demoralising to seek help after a supposed professional has shot you down.

orestes

I've considered it quite a few times. I go through what I call my "bad patches" sometimes, just feeling sad and lonely and nothing interests me. It's hard to explain, but I just feel empty and worthless sometimes. It comes and goes, but I've never sought help over it. I'd never talk to anyone about it, because I just thought people would either think I was whinging or just tell me to get over it and cheer up, and the stigma connected to seeking help for things like this always put me off I must admit.

Interesting and valuable thread, I'll be rereading it a bit I reckon, cheers

AckwelFoley

As somone who suffers from severe manic depression suicide is always an option, or should i say more accuratley somthing thats on my mind alot.

I was hospitalised last October after a very near attempt that would have been fatal. Looking back on it now after a subsequent 2 months of recovery and alot of medication, i can say ironically i love my life and am very content. But things can change nearly overnight.. so i do have concerns about my future and my ability to control my illness.

AckwelFoley

Terry wrote: »

Just because you don't have a bandage or a fever, doesn't mean you're not sick.

EXCELLENT statment.

36Degrees

Susannahmia wrote: »

No way life has it's up's and downs. It might really suck for a period but with time ones circumstances could be completly different. One of the most selfish acts imaginable imo, could never do that to my loved ones.

I
I dont think its entirely fair of you to call suicide selfish. It may seem that way to people who have never felt seriously suicidal (you, or am I wrong?), but for some people they obviously have more trouble coping than others or they just have the misfortune to have really crappy lives through no fault of their own. Therefore they see no other option but to commit suicide. Its not being selfish, its being so desperate for the (at the risk of sounding emo here) pain to stop that they see no other way.

Latchy

The chief constable of manchester goes and commits suicide .A man with one of the highest positions in the country in a highly responsible job with family and (alleged ) misstress's .

If it proves one thing it is that suicide is an option for anybdy regardless of age class or social position .It's a terrible lonley place for anybody to find themselfs in

AARRRGH

About 10 years ago something weird happened to me in front of my computer. It was like I left my body and was watching myself. I felt very disconnected from reality. It wasn't epilepsy.

Immediately afterwards my head was really messed up. There were loads of sounds and voices and I couldn't concentrate properly. My short term memory also seemed a bit messed up.

I remember walking around my house trying to calm myself down and talk myself out of whatever it was that was going on.

I went to the doctor and he didn't have a clue what was wrong.

For about three days the weird noises and confusion continued. I remember thinking to myself if they don't go away I'm going to have to kill myself, as it was complete hell.

Then all of a sudden I felt a weird feeling in my head and it went away.

Weird.

AckwelFoley

dublindude wrote: »

About 10 years ago something weird happened to me in front of my computer. It was like I left my body and was watching myself. I felt very disconnected from reality. It wasn't epilepsy.

Immediately afterwards my head was really messed up. There were loads of sounds and voices and I couldn't concentrate properly. My short term memory also seemed a bit messed up.

I remember walking around my house trying to calm myself down and talk myself out of whatever it was that was going on.

I went to the doctor and he didn't have a clue what was wrong.

For about three days the weird noises and confusion continued. I remember thinking to myself if they don't go away I'm going to have to kill myself, as it was complete hell.

Then all of a sudden I felt a weird feeling in my head and it went away.

Weird.

Hey.

Im not trying to be "funny" but were you taking and drugs legal or otherwise around he time of this?

Im just interested.. eitherway you should look into this more..

AARRRGH

I drank a **** load of caffeine that day (I've since discovered I'm quite sensitive to caffeine) and I hadn't really slept/eaten.

I think it was a combination of the above and maybe some kind of three day panic attack.

It hasn't happened since, so I dunno...

AckwelFoley

dublindude wrote: »

I drank a **** load of caffeine that day (I've since discovered I'm quite sensitive to caffeine) and I hadn't really slept/eaten.

I think it was a combination of the above and maybe some kind of three day panic attack.

It hasn't happened since, so I dunno...

Sounds like it could be part of the cause.

Anyhing like this can be serious or nothing serious when your head is involved and should always be treated with caution.

If it does happen again i crtainly would seek advice and not be "put off" by one GP's opinion

AARRRGH

Yeah, the GP thought I had a phobia of computers and recommended hypnosis! What a moron.

Actually thinking about it now, that's the same doctor who one year later sent me home with A LOLLYPOP when I went to him with undiagnosed glandular fever and a serious throat infection.

What a gimp.

Saint Patrick

Yeah your probably right. How come always after 12 midnight a car collides with a tree or ditch or lamp-post. "the driver lost control of the car" - how? "the car collided with a tree" - why? was the tree in the middle of the road.

raichquilly

January of this year my father who was 43 shot himself in the head,
i dont think suicide is a selfish act i never did. he obviously thought that he had enough and felt he didnt or counldnt go on,even though he in our opion had lots but when your in that place you dont think of concequences or the good thing s you only focus on the bad,
from a personal point of view what is left behind is very tough cause not only do you get angry and feel guilty for the "what if's"you get the blame from other family members. Yes i said that, my dads parents are blaming me (22) my mum and my bro(16) for his death and not preventing it.
But even if we recognized he was mentaly sick what could we do the state here spends something like 20cents per person, and it s seems more and more people are becoming mentaly ill, sure what 20 cents going to do??everyday you hear of another family affected. and right now it seems so unpreventable.
Sorry rant over:o

Dragan

Susannahmia wrote: »

He left that child without a father and effectively an orphan.

It's not that clear cut, the man may honestly have felt he was doing the child a favour by not being around.

I have been vehemently against suicide my whole life and yet i still tried to top myself when i was at my lowest. Am i happy that it didn't work? Sure i am. Truth be told i honestly can't even explain the mindset i was in at the time but it's really not as simple as "think of others".

raichquilly

Dragan wrote: »

It's not that clear cut, the man may honestly have felt he was doing the child a favour by not being around.".

This is what im trying to explain to my mother,right now she is so angry and is questioning his love for her even though he loved her to bits,but that is a stage of the grievemnt process.
But the state of mind you actually cant tell and i do think they feel that the world and family are better off without them, even thought this is not the case.

raichquilly

raichquilly wrote: »

January of this year my father who was 43 shot himself in the head,
i dont think suicide is a selfish act i never did. he obviously thought that he had enough and felt he didnt or counldnt go on,even though he in our opion had lots but when your in that place you dont think of concequences or the good thing s you only focus on the bad,
from a personal point of view what is left behind is very tough cause not only do you get angry and feel guilty for the "what if's"you get the blame from other family members. Yes i said that, my dads parents are blaming me (22) my mum and my bro(16) for his death and not preventing it.
But even if we recognized he was mentaly sick what could we do the state here spends something like 20cents per person, and it s seems more and more people are becoming mentaly ill, sure what 20 cents going to do??everyday you hear of another family affected. and right now it seems so unpreventable.
Sorry rant over:o

Sorry to hear that.My thoughts are with you.There is no reason to feel guilty though.

raichquilly

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry to hear that.My thoughts are with you.There is no reason to feel guilty though.

Thanks The dazzler, i suppose im lucky right now i have started seeing a breavement counsller and it has helped so much. So right now guilt is something im seeing my mum go through and it kills me to see that because at the end of the day we did nothing wrong and my dad did nothing wrong(in my eyes)dand its just a tragic situation right now, soi understand why my mum feels he was selfish to do that to her after 22 yrs of marriage but i understand why i feel it was unselfish!! i know very screwed up!!!! both total opposites
Its great to see people here able to talk about it as there seems to be so much stigma around it.!!!

Dragan

raichquilly wrote: »

Its great to see people here able to talk about it as there seems to be so much stigma around it.!!!

Well thats part of the problem i guess, although i now realise my revelation may have been a bit silly. Afterall, there people here who know me quite well who i would never have said that to but at the end of the day there is no point in me weighing in to the discussion without given my vantage point.

Best of luck with getting through things, i've had some mates go that route over the years and i know what your going through from your side as well.

StormWarrior

There is simply no point whatsoever in trying to get someone who has never been suicidal to understand. Genuine, suicidal depression isn't even close to feeling upset that some things in your life aren't going right. Feeling a bit blue is not even comparable to feeling as if your entire mind and soul are being haunted by the blackest depths of hell. People who say suicide is selfish just don't even know what there talking about. And this is coming from someone who lost a good friend to suicide. I have never blamed him for what he did even for a second.