Youtube video of mob in turkey

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

Mindboggling that a person could read that and see the word 'throughout' as being the problem part.

It is important to point out that this is a problem associated with a specific region in the country - I don't see what is so "mindboggling" about that.

On the subject of homicide, it should be pointed out that Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia (all EU nations) all have considerably higher homicide rates than Turkey.

Morlar

Latvia, Lithuania and estonia do not have a culture where islamic so-called 'honour' killings (including stonings) run at a conservative estimate (as of 200300) of a figure of 200+.pa (such as that which exsists throughout so-called secular turkey).

paulizei

Morlar wrote: »

I think this video from 2 nights ago illustrates graphically just how ready 'the lovely muslim men' of turkey are to join europe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjYYuj0Bz5o

IHT wrote:

Berlin: Dozens of young Germans attacked a group of Indian visitors to a village in the eastern state of Saxony over the weekend, chasing them through the streets and smashing up the restaurant where the Indians had taken refuge, the local police confirmed Monday.


The incident, which took place Saturday in Mügeln, about 45 kilometers, or 28 miles, east of Leipzig, was witnessed by a large crowd, which apparently did not take any action to stop the attack against the eight Indians. The Saxony police did not release news of the attack until late Sunday. "We are not ruling out a xenophobic motive," said the police chief of Saxony, Bernd Merbitz.

There are frequent violent attacks on non white people by neo nazis in Germany. Boot Germany out of the EU?

Morlar wrote: »

I believe it does. I have never seen crowds of literally hundreds of men collectively repeatedly groping and pawing a handful of seriously distressed (ie screaming) women on the street in say dublin, london or paris or berlin etc - have you ?

There are about 130000 Turks in Berlin btw.

What about that place where children on the way to school had to be protected by the police from a violent abusive sectarian mob. Ireland I think it was called.

Sesshoumaru

paulizei wrote: »

There are about 130000 Turks in Berlin btw.

Speaking of Berlin.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html

The Turkish women's organization Papatya has documented 40 instances of honor killings in Germany since 1996. Examples include a Darmstadt girl whose two brothers pummelled her to death with a hockey stick in April 2004 after they learned she had slept with her boyfriend. In Augsburg in April, a man stabbed his wife and 7-year-old daughter because the wife was having an affair. In December 2003, a Tuebingen father strangled his 16-year-old daughter and threw her body into a lake because she had a boyfriend. Bullets, knives, even axes and gasoline are the weapons of choice. The crime list compiled by Papatya is an exercise in horror. And the sad part, said Boehmecke, is that it is far from complete. "We'll never really know how many victims there are. Too often these crimes go unreported."

I can't imagine it had anything to do with Islamic ideology. It's the ebil western people and their corrupt ways. If only they let these people live in their own little mini islamic states and stopped trying to get them to do ridiculous things like integrate!!

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I can't imagine it had anything to do with Islamic ideology.

It didn't. Muslim leaders in Berlin have stressed that there is no basis for honour killings in the Qur'an. 45 known cases of honour killings occurred in Germany from 1996 to 2004. To suggest that this practice is endorsed by all (or even the majority of) 3.5 million Muslims in the country is simply ridiculous.

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

Latvia, Lithuania and estonia do not have a culture where islamic so-called 'honour' killings (including stonings) run at a conservative estimate (as of 200300) of a figure of 200+.pa

So the large number of murders that occur in the Baltic states are somehow more acceptable to you for this reason?

Sesshoumaru

djpbarry wrote: »

It didn't. Muslim leaders in Berlin have stressed that there is no basis for honour killings in the Qur'an. 45 known cases of honour killings occurred in Germany from 1996 to 2004. To suggest that this practice is endorsed by all (or even the majority of) 3.5 million Muslims in the country is simply ridiculous.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling_2.html

There is nothing in the Koran, the book of basic Islamic teachings, that permits or sanctions honor killings. However, the view of women as property with no rights of their own is deeply rooted in Islamic culture, Tahira Shahid Khan, a professor specializing in women's issues at the Aga Khan University in Pakistan, wrote in Chained to Custom, a review of honor killings published in 1999.

"Women are considered the property of the males in their family irrespective of their class, ethnic, or religious group. The owner of the property has the right to decide its fate. The concept of ownership has turned women into a commodity which can be exchanged, bought and sold."

Honor killings are perpetrated for a wide range of offenses. Marital infidelity, pre-marital sex, flirting, or even failing to serve a meal on time can all be perceived as impugning the family honor.

I would have to agree with professor Tahira Shahid Khan. Just because the Koran doesn't directly say you should kill women who "dishonour" the family, doesn't mean it doesn't provide the average muslim reader with enough pieces of information to come to that conclusion themselves.

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Just because the Koran doesn't directly say you should kill women who "dishonour" the family, doesn't mean it doesn't provide the average muslim reader with enough pieces of information to come to that conclusion themselves.

That sort of logic could also be applied to the Bible, given it's less-than egalitarian content, particularly in the Old Testament.

I would hardly say the "average" Muslim condones honour killings. We are talking about an extremist minority of Taliban-esque wackos.

Sesshoumaru

djpbarry wrote: »

That sort of logic could also be applied to the Bible, given it's less-than egalitarian content, particularly in the Old Testament.

As an atheist I'm not going to defend the bible. Any person who says they believe in any of that stuff, I take as seriously as someone telling me they believe in Noddy.

Anyway I thought Europe had a post Christian secular society? Bringing up the bible only distracts us from discussing Islam. Which if you want to compare holy books far outclasses the bible in terms of containing crap you wouldn't want innocent children reading. How many Christian/post Christian countries can you be sentenced to death in by stoning?

djpbarry wrote: »

I would hardly say the "average" Muslim condones honour killings. We are talking about an extremist minority of Taliban-esque wackos.

But what are they taking to an extreme? If following what's written in the Koran to the letter is extremist then yes you could call them that. But since Muslims claim god came down into the dessert and spoke directly into mo's ear, then we have a problem. Since from their perspective there is nothing extreme in following the word of god.

Islam today is the same as Islam in the 7th century. How can it change when its adherents passionately believe mo & god spoke directly. If god came down and told us how he wants us to live already, how can you argue with that? or change it? The koran is for all mankind and for all time apparently.

Morlar

On the subject of honour killings:

Originally Posted by Sesshoumaru View Post
I can't imagine it had anything to do with Islamic ideology.

djpbarry wrote: »

It didn't.

This is insane - you will say anything to avoid dealing with the myriad of legitimate reasons why turkey is unsuitable to be in the eu.

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

But what are they taking to an extreme? If following what's written in the Koran to the letter is extremist then yes you could call them that.

There are plenty of people in the world (admittedly, most are in the US) who take the Bible literally, often with violent consequences. The point I'm trying to make is that most people of a religious disposition, whether they be Muslim, Christian or otherwise, use a little bit of common sense when interpreting these writings.

Morlar wrote: »

This is insane - you will say anything to avoid dealing with the myriad of legitimate reasons why turkey is unsuitable to be in the eu.

What exactly am I avoiding? The main issue you have raised in this thread is the practice of honour killings in Turkey. I countered this with the fact that the murder rate in Turkey is substantially lower than some current EU member states. You responded by apparently saying that this was ok, because they don't (as far as you know) do honour killings. I fail to see the logic in that - murder is murder. Irrespective of the motive, the end result is the same.

Morlar

djpbarry wrote: »

What exactly am I avoiding?

I would say you have consistently split hairs throughout this thread as a way of diverting any discussion of turkey that is not positive.

You have sought to minimise any issue by pedantic means - arguing over the most minor detail as if it changed the gravity of the problems, changing language to 'youths' from men etc etc. This is pretty transparent imo.

Re your introduction of the wider subject 'homicide' in europe - were not talking about the wider more general problems that turkey has that everyone else has too like car theft, or murder in general.

Were talking about the problems that turkey has that are unique to turkey in the context of european membership. And before you make the point Germany has honour killings too - the fact is german people dont commit honour killings of their womenfolk,- its a specifically islamic practice and in this case the majority are likely to be commited by turks oddly enough (as they are a large population in germany).

Honour killings and its general mistreatment of christians and women (as mentioned in multiple links) would be among the issues here. Some of the others of (attacking north iraq, denying the genocide of 1 milllion armenian (christians btw), cyprus etc) course are covered in the other thread.

AngryHippie

To be Honest,
I still don't think that the largest obstacles to their entry are social, or religious or cultural.
History, Geogrpahy and Economics would all suggest that Turkish accession is a disasterous concept, the rest of the arguements while valid and rational are not the largest issues here, just the most emotional ones

Morlar

AngryHippie wrote: »

To be Honest,
I still don't think that the largest obstacles to their entry are social, or religious or cultural.
History, Geogrpahy and Economics would all suggest that Turkish accession is a disasterous concept, the rest of the arguements while valid and rational are not the largest issues here, just the most emotional ones

I think you may have a point there - about how there is a wider context to all this and more wide-ranging issues than the specific ones in this thread. The ones here could be called the 'most emotional' - I suppose - the reason they stood out to me is that they are the most obviously socially un-acceptable to most people & myself included (mistreatment of christians, mistreatment of non islamic women, and mistreatment of islamic women culminating in the most extreme examples of honour killings).

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

were not talking about the wider more general problems that turkey has that everyone else has too like car theft, or murder in general.

You're putting murder in the same bracket as car theft?

I do not see why a high murder rate should be dismissed as a "more general problem"? Surely if a nation has a murder rate comparable to, or even higher than, the rate in the US, this represents a severe, sociological problem?

Morlar wrote: »

Were talking about the problems that turkey has that are unique to turkey in the context of european membership.

But virtually every nation has its own unique problems. For example, Germany still has problems with neo-nazi thugs:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2591615.stm

Morlar wrote: »

Honour killings and its general mistreatment of christians and women (as mentioned in multiple links) would be among the issues here.

Both of which I have acknowledged as being serious issues. The problem I have is that you seem to believe that the murder of Christians and/or women is acceptable to most Turks. You also seem to be of the belief that almost every Muslim male is a potential killer. This sort of thinking is not conducive to rational debate.

AngryHippie wrote: »

History, Geogrpahy and Economics would all suggest that Turkish accession is a disasterous concept

While I can understand that having an EU border with Iraq is a risky business, surely there are potential economic benefits to Turkish accession?

Morlar

djpbarry wrote: »

You're putting murder in the same bracket as car theft?

No. Your just dis-ingenously claiming that I am.

What happened here is that the subject of honour killings in turkey came up - to counter this you then said this is no different from the prevalent murder rate in other non islamic countries.

I said that it is an issue which is unique to turkey (in the context of this discussion) and its islamic nature. You then said that there was no connection between islam and honour killings.

The point was made that the discussion is about problems which are specific to turkey - not the common problems that turkey has that everyone else has also (which would include car crime and other general crime).

djpbarry wrote: »

I do not see why a high murder rate should be dismissed as a "more general problem"? Surely if a nation has a murder rate comparable to, or even higher than, the rate in the US, this represents a severe, sociological problem?

We are talking about problems here which are specific to turkey and its islamic nature as a country which aspires to being a member of the eu - one that has for example 200+ honour killings per year. If you dont see a difference between honour killings of women and more general crimes then we are not going to agree on that.

(Honour killings and its general mistreatment of christians and women)

djpbarry wrote: »

Both of which I have acknowledged as being serious issues.

It would be a bit tricky not to.

Creagh Caper

djp please dont use the bbc as a reference to anything. they cannot be trusted to report the news fairly and correctly. they are the most left leaning organisation out there who have been caught lieing on several occasions to follow their own political agenda (orla guerin in Palestine anyone?).

http://www.biased-bbc.blogspot.com/

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

You then said that there was no connection between islam and honour killings.

I did not say there was no connection. I said, in response to another post, that honour killings are not an Islamic ideal.

Morlar wrote: »

We are talking about problems here which are specific to turkey and its islamic nature as a country which aspires to being a member of the eu - one that has for example 200+ honour killings per year. If you dont see a difference between honour killings of women and more general crimes then we are not going to agree on that.

That would depend on what you consider to be a "general" crime. For me, murder, irrespective of the motive, is a deplorable act. Some may argue that there is a big difference between stoning a woman to death and shooting a man in the head, but personally, I don't think so – a certain psychotic disposition is required to commit either act. It is for this reason that I compared the murder rate in Turkey with that in EU member states (Turkey also has a lower murder rate than the US, but then, so does just about every other country in the world!)

You have stressed that honour killings are a problem that are unique to Turkey in the context of accession to the EU. While this may be true, Turkey is not alone in having its own unique problems. For example, sectarian violence was a major problem in the UK and Ireland when we joined the EU - should we have been refused membership based on our human rights record at the time?