Who Errs Sins .....THE ' Lost ' SAS

Latchy

The Daily Mail recently did a two page article on British political and military mishaps and this one (below) was amoung them .It brings back memories for me from 1976 cuz i was a young serving soldier with the irish army on the border at the time and remember the incident well .

Who errs sins...how the SAS wandered across the Irish border and caused a diplomatic uproar

Last updated at 10:47am on 28th December 2007

When eight highly trained SAS men found themselves on the wrong side of a border during the height of the Irish troubles they put it down to a "map-reading error".

But it was an error that was to throw relations between the Republic or Ireland and Britain into jeopardy.

The men - from the Army's most elite unit, motto Who Dares Wins - were on patrol in May 1976 when they accidentally crossed the border from Northern Ireland into the Republic.


The official explanation was a map reading error.

But it was to prove a costly cartographical slip up prompting fears that the "whole Northern Ireland policy could be undermined".

The men were in three cars when they were found with a collection of 11 weapons including a Sterling sub-machine gun and a pump-action shotgun.

They at first denied they were members of the SAS - sent to Ulster to fight IRA terrorists in the "bandit country" of South Armagh - and claimed they were members of the Parachute Regiment.

Their explanations, however, fell on dead ears and they were arrested and charged with possessing firearms with intent to endanger life.

They were bailed to the tune of £5,000 each and, as secret papers released today (dec 28) reveal, a diplomatic wrangle ensued over their trial.

On May 6, 1976, the Ministry of Defence issued a statement admitting that morning eight SAS men on routine patrol made an "accidental incursion into the Irish Republic.

"After travelling approximately 500 metres they encountered a check point manned by the police of the Irish Republic .

"They realised they had made a map reading error, and accompanied police to a police station," it read.

Documents show how the British Government hoped to dispose of the embarrassment swiftly, but were thwarted when Irish prosecutors decided there was a case to answer.

An official describes how made the "strongest objections" and warned that it would have "appalling consequences for both Governments".

The same day the men were taken to court and encountered a hostile and jeering crowd.

There were fears the men would be imprisoned and the Prime Minister demanded a contingency plan for action to 'bring home our displeasure to the Irish Government' should the men face jail.

A list of possible measures suggested included trade and immigration restrictions, withdrawal of social security benefits for Irish citizens and even an appeal to Britons not to take holidays in the Republic.

As a final possibility cutting of diplomatic relations was raised.

The briefing note warned of disadvantages in most of the measures, but added: "Our preliminary conclusion is that our response should be tempered by the need to limit the consequent damage to North-South security cooperation and to our own security operations in the North."

It warned of a grave risk of arousing Irish public opinion against the British and making it politically impossible for the men to be released.

In the event no negotiations could prevent the trial from going ahead, but a flurry of letters demanded high level security during proceedings.

A letter from the Ministry of Defence to the Prime Minister warns of the dangers of the men facing an Irish prison: "Quite apart from the consequences for the men themselves, the effect on the morale of the security forces and on Parliamentary and public opinion would be serious; there would be a public outcry, particularly if they suffered at the hands of the Provisional IRA and our whole Northern Ireland policy could be undermined."

The men pleaded guilty to possessing firearms without a licence. The trial was described as an "anti-climax".

The men were acquitted of the more serious charged and fined £100 each after the judge found they had 'shown a degree of negligence in their map reading'.

eroo

Gets a mention in 'Bandit Country' by Toby Harnden.

As a matter of interest Latchy,what was the opinion of Irish troops in the region?After all,the SAS have a less than satisfactory record up there...wasn't there another incident where it was claimed the SAS had crossed over the Border and kidnapped a PIRA man?

Snickers Man

I remember it too from the time.

Hadn't there been a big prison breakout or something just before hand?

I know those who like to put two and two together (I wouldn't go so far as to call them "Conspiracy theorists" in this case) quickly came to the conclusion that they were hunting the escaped prisoners who they surmised would have gone south as quick as possible.

Latchy

eroo wrote: »

Gets a mention in 'Bandit Country' by Toby Harnden.

As a matter of interest Latchy,what was the opinion of Irish troops in the region?After all,the SAS have a less than satisfactory record up there...wasn't there another incident where it was claimed the SAS had crossed over the Border and kidnapped a PIRA man?

The role of the irish troops on the border was in aid of the civil power because the gardai unlike the RUC at the time were not armed .I think the feeling at the time amoung the troops then was we were in a no win situation as regards any sympathy towards what was happenning in the north with the British army /SAS operations .We were seen in a lot of circles as 'free staters' or free state army and equally despised by a percentage of the population on both sides of the border.That did not mean some soldiers didn't have sympathy for the republican side but there was a time a place to express it ,that was to be expected . Also being soldiers we were glad we were on our side of the border in the republic and not the other side. We could somtimes intercept radio signals about goings on in south armagh and our large anthennas with tricolor attached served two reason ,one to get a good signal and the other to appear over the hedgerow to show who we were should there be any doubt with anybody viewing our patrols through binoculors .I do recall the incident with the claim of pria man being aducted by the SAS and dont have the details to hand .But during that period as you can imagine their were a lot of such incurisons and reported adductions such was the dirty games being played by SAS/BA/IRA and UDA alike .i do remember one such patrol with the Army/gardai were we gave chase to a ford escort all though the narrow roads of moanaghan for about 20 miles before we caught up with them .Turned out they were smuggling butter and this was a regular occurence at the time .

Then there was the time the battlion football team from castleblaney to dundalk crossed over into the north and were escorted back by the RUC .The driver of the truck carrying the footballers got worried when he noticed the post box's were red , this was headlines on the rte news on one evening in 1977, another true story .

Fratton Fred

latchyco wrote: »

.i do remember one such patrol with the Army/gardai were we gave chase to a ford escort all though the narrow roads of moanaghan for about 20 miles before we caught up with them .Turned out they were smuggling butter and this was a regular occurence at the time .

Add to that the ford escort flying towards a BA border checkpoint manned by a very nervous 18 year old and it is easy to see how joy riders ended up getting shot.

As an "Aside", I know a publican (He is actually a republican publican:D) up near the border who has one of the "MOD Property Keep Out" signs in his garden. When they were taking down the nearby checkpoint several years ago, he managed to "Acquire" it. He took it back to the pub and hit it with a screw driver to make it look like it had bullet holes. Half the regulars in the pub that night sat around arguing over which one of them had shot it until they eventually ended up agreeing it must be some guy up the road because their guns were of bigger calibre:D

Latchy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Add to that the ford escort flying towards a BA border checkpoint manned by a very nervous 18 year old and it is easy to see how joy riders ended up getting shot.

Yes, and it would be fair to say that some of those on the BA checkpoint were more trigger happy than others.

As an "Aside", I know a publican (He is actually a republican publican:D) up near the border who has one of the "MOD Property Keep Out" signs in his garden. When they were taking down the nearby checkpoint several years ago, he managed to "Acquire" it. He took it back to the pub and hit it with a screw driver to make it look like it had bullet holes. Half the regulars in the pub that night sat around arguing over which one of them had shot it until they eventually ended up agreeing it must be some guy up the road because their guns were of bigger calibre:D

Returning from a patrol one night to our base ,we heard the distinct sound of ' ping ping ping ' hit on our panhard armored car .We never did find out if it was just a few rounds gone astray .:)

McArmalite

latchyco wrote: »

The role of the irish troops on the border was in aid of the civil power because the gardai unlike the RUC at the time were not armed .I think the feeling at the time amoung the troops then was we were in a no win situation as regards any sympathy towards what was happenning in the north with the British army /SAS operations .We were seen in a lot of circles as 'free staters' or free state army and equally despised by a percentage of the population on both sides of the border.That did not mean some soldiers didn't have sympathy for the republican side but there was a time a place to express it ,that was to be expected . Also being soldiers we were glad we were on our side of the border in the republic and not the other side. We could somtimes intercept radio signals about goings on in south armagh and our large anthennas with tricolor attached served two reason ,one to get a good signal and the other to appear over the hedgerow to show who we were should there be any doubt with anybody viewing our patrols through binoculors .I do recall the incident with the claim of pria man being aducted by the SAS and dont have the details to hand .But during that period as you can imagine their were a lot of such incurisons and reported adductions such was the dirty games being played by SAS/BA/IRA and UDA alike .i do remember one such patrol with the Army/gardai were we gave chase to a ford escort all though the narrow roads of moanaghan for about 20 miles before we caught up with them .Turned out they were smuggling butter and this was a regular occurence at the time .

Then there was the time the battlion football team from castleblaney to dundalk crossed over into the north and were escorted back by the RUC .The driver of the truck carrying the footballers got worried when he noticed the post box's were red , this was headlines on the rte news on one evening in 1977, another true story .

A Belfast wit once described an SAS member as " As a man who can speak 6 languages while disguised as a bottle of Guinness " .

Talk about smuggling butter - that takes me back . I'm from a border town and well I remember smuggling butter across in my fathers car with school bags, sports bags etc been used to conceal the goods back in the 70's . To be honest, I don't think the Customs or the Guards really cared about a bit of petty smuggling by families etc, everyone done it along the border. If they stopped us, normally they just took a quick look under the seats and the boot and waived us on. I also was in the 'sandbaggers' (FCA/Reserve) as the regulars affectionately called us :rolleyes:. Done a few camps in Fort Dunree and Finner in my time, good old buzz.

The fella who was believed to have crossed the border to a house a stone's throw from the North and abducted an unarmed Republican at gunpoint was SAS Capt Tony Ball. This 'hero' was also named in Tim Pat Coogan's The IRA P606 as one of those responsible along with Capt Nairac for directing and supplying the bombs used in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974. The Provos have been unusually adamant down the years that they later shot Ball in the North while the brits claim he was killed in a car accident abroad. Draw your own conclusions.

BTW, Nairac was gay, not something you'd associate with the super hard, macho men the SAS are supposed to be.

Latchy

McArmalite wrote: »

A Belfast wit once described an SAS member as " As a man who can speak 6 languages while disguised as a bottle of Guinness " .

Talk about smuggling butter - that takes me back . I'm from a border town and well I remember smuggling butter across in my fathers car with school bags, sports bags etc been used to conceal the goods back in the 70's . To be honest, I don't think the Customs or the Guards really cared about a bit of petty smuggling by families etc, everyone done it along the border. If they stopped us, normally they just took a quick look under the seats and the boot and waived us on. I also was in the 'sandbaggers' (FCA/Reserve) as the regulars affectionately called us :rolleyes:. Done a few camps in Fort Dunree and Finner in my time, good old buzz.

When ever the gardai got a tip off about a possible smuggling operation/possible arms movement anybody acting suspicious was fair game to be pulled over .I am sure the butter smugglers were more happy to be chased by a gardai/army patrol than if on the other side by the Brits although somtimes used to think it was for the fun of the chase .Some people like to live dangerously .

eroo

''BTW, Nairac was gay, not something you'd associate with the super hard, macho men the SAS are supposed to be.''

A touch of anti-SASism,why?

McArmalite

eroo wrote: »

''BTW, Nairac was gay, not something you'd associate with the super hard, macho men the SAS are supposed to be.''

A touch of anti-SASism,why?

Maybe it's a bit more of a touch of anti-Gayism than anti-SASism ?? Well there supposed to be such masculine James Bond figures etc, can you imagine a 007 who is gay ?

Also watched a program a few months ago on the psychological stress of combat etc in the British army, and other issues such as mistreatment, bullying etc. Turns out of any regiment in the british army the SAS have the highest suicide rate according to the Psychiatrist in the program. He has raised this issue thru his MP with the UK MOD and they would not comment, classified information etc.

PDN

McArmalite wrote: »

Maybe it's a bit more of a touch of anti-Gayism than anti-SASism ?? Well there supposed to be such masculine James Bond figures etc, can you imagine a 007 who is gay ?

Homophobia is not an attractive character trait.

However, I guess it gives an added dimension to the "Troops Out' slogan.

McArmalite

PDN wrote: »

Homophobia is not an attractive character trait.

However, I guess it gives an added dimension to the "Troops Out' slogan.

Nice one PDN.

purple'n'gold

BTW, Nairac was gay, not something you'd associate with the super hard, macho men the SAS are supposed to be.

That’s interesting, how do you know that?

DublinWriter

My Uncle was an MP in the Irish Army in the mid 70's and he told me that they used to pick up members of the BA all the time, usually not in uniform and acting really smug in the truck on the way back up.

Another old boy I worked with was a member of the Irish Army Ranger Wing at the time of Bloody Sunday and the burning out of Catholics in certain areas.

He told me this incredible story that his particular unit were given orders to make for Derry and were at least 5 miles over the border with a field gun when they were given subsequent orders to turn back at once.

He said this happened the night Jack Lynch gave his famous speech on RTE about the situation and about the Republic 'not standing idly by', so that would pin it down to a particular day, but I've not been able to verify his amazing story since.

Latchy

DublinWriter wrote: »

My Uncle was an MP in the Irish Army in the mid 70's and he told me that they used to pick up members of the BA all the time, usually not in uniform and acting really smug in the truck on the way back up.

Another old boy I worked with was a member of the Irish Army Ranger Wing at the time of Bloody Sunday and the burning out of Catholics in certain areas.

He told me this incredible story that his particular unit were given orders to make for Derry and were at least 5 miles over the border with a field gun when they were given subsequent orders to turn back at once.

He said this happened the night Jack Lynch gave his famous speech on RTE about the situation and about the Republic 'not standing idly by', so that would pin it down to a particular day, but I've not been able to verify his amazing story since.

It's a pretty well known fact that the irish army was on standby orders to invade some areas of the north were nationalists were the majority .The only problem was you cant invade anywere unless you have the manpower and resources to do so .The irish army strenght on the border at the time was less that 3000 strong and not equipped to realistically engage in any serious invasion although they would have i am sure proven themselfs in any firefight with paramilitarys or army .Jack lynch hesitated in giving the go ahead .Rightly or wrongly is for historians to debate but he was was aware of all potential outcomes i am sure .

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20001231/ai_n14514277

guinnessdrinker

DublinWriter, the Ranger Wing were not yet formed at the time of Bloody Sunday.

I heard a similar story to you from another ex Irish army soldier. He told me at the time when they were on standby on the border that the soldiers themselfs knew they were outnumbered by the British forces but they still wanted to go into Derry anyway. He told me a lot of them were annoyed by Jack Lynch for rightly or wrongly, not giving the go ahead.

They met a lot of refugees fleeing their homes, and army refugee camps were set up for them in places like finner camp and gormanstown.

Also the people in Derry wanted the Irish army to come into the city and when news that the army (the British army) were being deployed in Derry, people were saying which army, (meaning the Irish or British).

McArmalite

purplengold wrote: »

BTW, Nairac was gay, not something you'd associate with the super hard, macho men the SAS are supposed to be.

That’s interesting, how do you know that?

It was in the current affairs magazine the Phoenix a while back. There is a section of it called Hush, Hush, good source of info regarding cloak and dagger etc by all sides, warts and all, Provos,INLA,RUC/UDR,SAS/UVF,Brits, Irish Special Branch etc. Apparently his gay partner was from a wealthy establishment family, I think it said his daddy was a senior Tory member, etc. Might have the old issue lying around, I'll post the date and name if I can find it.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

Apparently his gay partner was from a wealthy establishment family, I think it said his daddy was a senior Tory member, etc. Might have the old issue lying around, I'll post the date and name if I can find it.

I know some people here may think we are still living in Victorian times, but is someone's sexuality really an issue?

eroo

DublinWriter wrote: »

Another old boy I worked with was a member of the Irish Army Ranger Wing at the time of Bloody Sunday and the burning out of Catholics in certain areas.

He told me this incredible story that his particular unit were given orders to make for Derry and were at least 5 miles over the border with a field gun when they were given subsequent orders to turn back at once.
.

Absolute BS or he was bull****ting you.ARW was not formed until March 1980

Latchy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know some people here may think we are still living in Victorian times, but is someone's sexuality really an issue?

Not so much now but back in the 70s being gay in the forces would have being .

Usually when a persons sexuality comes into question it's usual about a gay or bisexual being discriminated against .It was nice to for a change to see the roles reversed when a female bouncer took her gay boss to the courts when he had tried to sack her when he found she was ' straight ' .She won her case .

Erin Go Brath

latchyco wrote: »

It's a pretty well known fact that the irish army was on standby orders to invade some areas of the north were nationalists were the majority .The only problem was you cant invade anywere unless you have the manpower and resources to do so .The irish army strenght on the border at the time was less that 3000 strong and not equipped to realistically engage in any serious invasion although they would have i am sure proven themselfs in any firefight with paramilitarys or army .Jack lynch hesitated in giving the go ahead .Rightly or wrongly is for historians to debate but he was was aware of all potential outcomes i am sure .

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20001231/ai_n14514277

I often wonder what the repurcussions would be if the Irish Army crossed the border into Derry and took on the RUC around the time of the 'battle of the bogside'? It would certainly be an interesting turn of events. Jack Lynchs speech seemed to indicate that thats exactly what he planned to do. The bogside residents were certaintly disappointed they didn't.

Was Lynch afraid that the British Army would cross the border in reprisal and threaten the sovereignity of the 26 counties i wonder. What was the general consensus amongst the troops around the time you served?

Latchy

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I often wonder what the repurcussions would be if the Irish Army crossed the border into Derry and took on the RUC around the time of the 'battle of the bogside'? It would certainly be an interesting turn of events. Jack Lynchs speech seemed to indicate that thats exactly what he planned to do. The bogside residents were certaintly disappointed they didn't.

The Tensions frustrations anger and hated were so high amoung the bogsiders not to mention the rest of NI and ROI that it was looking like it could happen but it could also have being seen as a knee jerk reaction .We must not forget it is one thing going in and taking on the RUC as eger as it was by a large % of populace , but Lynch and his counterpart in the British Goverment Heath both knew how high the stakes were and it would have not suited either side to engage in such a scenario, unless of course Lynch gave the go ahead to attack .From a military perspective any battle won by the irish army would have only giving the british the excuse to retaliate and it is likley The British army would have sent in more troops and military hardware to engage in any irish army /ira activities ,but cool heads were called for at the time and there might have being a UN invention of sorts which would have suited both side except perhaps republicans/ira .There were rumors that a British navy battleship was lying of the coast of ireland somwere with it's big guns pointing towards the republic at the time .

Was Lynch afraid that the British Army would cross the border in reprisal and threaten the sovereignity of the 26 counties i wonder. What was the general consensus amongst the troops around the time you served?

As above .Lynch would have being advised by Army top brass and the phone calls to and from leinstier house/dowing street would have being buzzing .I did not join the army untill 1975 which by then the troubles was at a height in terms of bombings but after the dublin bombings, the troops serving with the UN in Cyprus were recalled because of the troop strenght required on the border and other dutys .The irish army by 1974 was better equipped than previously at the beginning of the troubles although the bitter feeelings of 1969 were replaced by depressing realisation of stalemate in any politic will to resolve the situation and atrocities on all sides .The feelings amoung a lot of irish troops was we should have gone in back in '69' but what if ? will always be somthing to chew over .Several different scenarios possible for sure .I think a UN presence would have being the lesser evil ,rather that having the BA there but would they have contained the troubles any better than the Brits ? Would there have being an irish contingent amoung them ? Most likley not .

DublinDes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Add to that the ford escort flying towards a BA border checkpoint manned by a very nervous 18 year old and it is easy to see how joy riders ended up getting shot.

As an "Aside", I know a publican (He is actually a republican publican:D) up near the border who has one of the "MOD Property Keep Out" signs in his garden. When they were taking down the nearby checkpoint several years ago, he managed to "Acquire" it. He took it back to the pub and hit it with a screw driver to make it look like it had bullet holes. Half the regulars in the pub that night sat around arguing over which one of them had shot it until they eventually ended up agreeing it must be some guy up the road because their guns were of bigger calibre:D

Thank you for your sarcastic little tale about the quaint but thick OIrish. Sounds like a story from Jim Davidson, a favorite with the British army and wife beater. Obviously been a wife beater would explain his popularity with the British army. Still, Nairac didn't find the Paddys along the border quite so thick or quaint did he ?

Fratton Fred

DublinDes wrote: »

Thank you for your sarcastic little tale about the quaint but thick OIrish. Sounds like a story from Jim Davidson, a favorite with the British army and wife beater. Obviously been a wife beater would explain his popularity with the British army. Still, Nairac didn't find the Paddys along the border quite so thick or quaint did he ?

It wasn't sarcastic, and it was passed on, as I said, by an Irish republican who lives near the border. wtf any of that has to do with Jim Davidson is beyond me. As for Thick Paddies, don't judge your fellow countrymen by your own standard.:rolleyes:

McArmalite

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I often wonder what the repurcussions would be if the Irish Army crossed the border into Derry and took on the RUC around the time of the 'battle of the bogside'? It would certainly be an interesting turn of events. Jack Lynchs speech seemed to indicate that thats exactly what he planned to do. The bogside residents were certaintly disappointed they didn't.

Was Lynch afraid that the British Army would cross the border in reprisal and threaten the sovereignity of the 26 counties i wonder. What was the general consensus amongst the troops around the time you served?

Well, relations of mine and many others in the north stayed up all night looking south to see the headlights of the Irish army vehicles such was the extreme panic and fear at the time as the nationalists been effectively defenseless. I haven't the slightest doubt, whatever the poor state of the army at the time, that most were incensed not to go in, and if they had gone up against the RUC - even a handful of IRA men and youths with petrol bombs managed to keep them at bay. *

Britian couldn't have opposed the Lynch govt. sending in the army, the international backlash for the brits would have been far, far too great for them. World wide sympathy, especially in America with the Irish American community was massive for not just reunification but the plight of the nationalists in the british created sectarian state.

Well, having a population of 13/14 times the size of Ireland, in a full military conflict Ireland wouldn't have a hope. But since the Suez crsis ( which they couldn't do on their own anyway but also needed the French) any illusions of Britain throwing it's weight around without US approval should be dead and gone.

But a better case in point, the Cod War** between Britain ( population 58 million) and Iceland ( population 1/4 million), (brave boys the British) in the 70's. The Cod Wars were a series of confrontations in the1970s between Britain and Iceland regarding fishing rights near the coast of Iceland. In defense of what Iceland considered their territorial waters, it involved the tiny Icelandic navy ( even smaller than ours !) cutting British trawlers fishing nets and even ramming them. Britain very bravely sent out some ships from her mighty navy, a series of rammings and rounds were fired by both parties, the British embassy was burned down in Reykjavik, and with an enraged world opinion, the mighty Royal navy slinked off back to the 'mainland'. Sad.



* ( Most of the few arms that were in the north were removed out of it a few months previously by what became later known as the 'Stickies' or Offical IRA/Sinn Fien/Workers Party , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_IRA, under the leadership of absolute imbeciles such as Cathal Goulding, Thomas McGiolla. Their excuse was that it would " increase sectarian tensions the presence of arms there ". Honest to God. Young angry nationalists wrote graffiti IRA - I Ran Away).

** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_war

McArmalite

DublinDes wrote: »

Thank you for your sarcastic little tale about the quaint but thick OIrish. Sounds like a story from Jim Davidson, a favorite with the British army and wife beater. Obviously been a wife beater would explain his popularity with the British army. Still, Nairac didn't find the Paddys along the border quite so thick or quaint did he ?

Have they found Nairac yet

DublinWriter

McArmalite wrote: »

Britian couldn't have opposed the Lynch govt. sending in the army, the international backlash for the brits would have been far, far too great for them. World wide sympathy, especially in America with the Irish American community was massive for not just reunification but the plight of the nationalists in the british created sectarian state.

I doubt it. The wheels of international diplomacy usually grind very slowly.

Had the Irish Army gone into the Bogside at that point, within 48 hours the entire province of Northern Ireland would have been razed by the Loyalists in a subconscious Scorched Earth type-act of reprisal.

Don't under estimate Britain's dependency on the USA either. Remember that Regan refused point-blank to aid the Thatcher government during the Falklands war. Although it primarily was a naval battle, Argentina had a pretty impressive air arsenal.

It would have been a complete wipe out had the Irish Army engaged the British Army in Derry. Even with the aid of a pre-PIRA militia, it would have been a slaughter house.

McArmalite

DublinWriter wrote: »

I doubt it. The wheels of international diplomacy usually grind very slowly.

Had the Irish Army gone into the Bogside at that point, within 48 hours the entire province of Northern Ireland would have been razed by the Loyalists in a subconscious Scorched Earth type-act of reprisal.

Don't under estimate Britain's dependency on the USA either. Remember that Regan refused point-blank to aid the Thatcher government during the Falklands war. Although it primarily was a naval battle, Argentina had a pretty impressive air arsenal.

It would have been a complete wipe out had the Irish Army engaged the British Army in Derry. Even with the aid of a pre-PIRA militia, it would have been a slaughter house.

" The wheels of international diplomacy usually grind very slowly.....Don't under estimate Britain's dependency on the USA either. " Well let's look at the Suez crisis , not to mention the Cod War, an even more obvious example of britian not been able to throw it's weight around.

British and French paratroppers invade Eygpt on the 5th of Nov. and british royal marines land at dawn on the 6th. The Eisenhower administration demanded that the invasion stop and sponsored resolutions in the UN Security Council for a cease-fire. Britain and France, as permanent members of the Security Council, vetoed the resolutions in the UN Security Council. The U.S. then appealed to the United Nations General Assembly and proposed a resolution calling for a cease-fire and a withdrawal of forces under the terms of Uniting for Peace (UfP). The General Assembly held an emergency session and passed the UfP resolution. The major industrialised nations ( including the US, so much for " the special relationship " ) indicated they may sell the reserves of the british pound and thereby precipitate a collapse of the british currency. Eden was forced to resign and announced a cease fire on November 6th , warning neither France nor Israel beforehand.

" within 48 hours the entire province of Northern Ireland would have been razed by the Loyalists in a subconscious Scorched Earth type-act of reprisal. " Here we go again, we'll be all murdered in our beds if the unionists don't get their way. Yeah, when the border was drawn up the unionists showed their true fighting spirit by abdoning thousands of their fellow british in the 26 and giving up 1/3 'Ulster' proper with out a single shot fired. Without the nod and wink from britian, that crowd wouldn't find their ar$es.

McArmalite

DublinWriter wrote: »

Remember that Regan refused point-blank to aid the Thatcher government during the Falklands war.....It would have been a complete wipe out had the Irish Army engaged the British Army in Derry. Even with the aid of a pre-PIRA militia, it would have been a slaughter house.

" Remember that Regan refused point-blank to aid the Thatcher government during the Falklands war. " Far from the US been totally neutral, british navy were secretly allowed to lease bandwidth on US 'Defence Satellite Communications System' as britian would have been incapable of invaded with the old, inaccurate maps they possed Thatcher also said she felt “dismayed and let down” by the 1983 U.S. invasion of Granada, which ended a left-wing coup in the former British colony. In the great 'special relationship' the Americans didn't even bother to inform the brits they were invading.

Also " His ( Caspar Weinberger ) staunch support later earned him a British Knighthood. He provided the United Kingdom with all the equipment she required during the war. Ranging from submarine detectors to the latest missiles. All this was done very discreetly. " *

" Even with the aid of a pre-PIRA militia, it would have been a slaughter house. " Some slaughter house in Iceland when the Icelandics practically commited an act of war on britian by ramming and firing over the bows of the british navy. **


*http://britainandamerica.typepad.com/britain_and_america/2007/04/americas_role_d.html
** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_war

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

" Even with the aid of a pre-PIRA militia, it would have been a slaughter house. " Some slaughter house in Iceland when the Icelandics practically commited an act of war on britian by ramming and firing over the bows of the british navy. **


*http://britainandamerica.typepad.com/britain_and_america/2007/04/americas_role_d.html
** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_war

er, didn't France commit an act of war on New Zealand once and the Kiwis too thought better of retaliating. I think it is called diplomacy.

If I remember correctly, it was explained to you quite graphically on another thread what would happen if the Irish army went over the border. I think it involved the loss of power for the whole country within about an hour and pretty much everything militry destroyed within a couple of days. That was before the navy or army got involved. (I think the comparison was to Baghdad in 1991)

I'm confused, one minute Britain is a nasty empirical power waging war and destruction on the civilised world, the next it can't even take on a few Icelandic fishermen, i wish you would make up your mind.:rolleyes:

Lets face it, Ireland was never going to send the troops in to sort out the RUC, because it would'nt have just been the RUC thy were taking on. I'm sure there were many in the Irish DF that felt strongly enough to want to go in, but no irish politician was going to make that mistake, it would have been a pointless but very costly mistake and would have served no purpose other thn to inflame an already out of control situation.

Victor

McArmalite wrote: »

Thatcher also said she felt “dismayed and let down” by the 1983 U.S. invasion of Granada, which ended a left-wing coup in the former British colony. In the great 'special relationship' the Americans didn't even bother to inform the brits they were invading.

Well actually, the Americans told the Queen, as she was head of state.