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Green Party - "Lets tax everything we can possibly make an excuse for"
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And by the way,
apart from car tax changes what other new taxes have been introduced since the Greens entered the coalition government?0 -
I'm pretty sure government grants are available for that sort of thing through SEI.
It's still very expensive dj, even if you are awarded a grant.
There's some grant figures at the bottom of this article which are not that high considering the cost of the equipment needed.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0903/breaking43.htm
Here is another article from last September, great ideas but very costly to implement.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/green-eco-plan-adds-836415000-to-house-cost-1085476.html0 -
Ah, now, those grants are not at all bad. I realise the equipment can be expensive, but if you were buying say, a biomass boiler, the grant would cover about 20 - 50% of the cost, depending on the size of the boiler. There's a few different models here.guinnessdrinker wrote: »There's some grant figures at the bottom of this article which are not that high considering the cost of the equipment needed.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0903/breaking43.htm
First of all, the cost of the houses in question is subject to variation, based on the dynamics of the market. Secondly, even if one of these houses was to cost an extra €15,000, this would easily be recouped in energy savings during the house's lifetime.guinnessdrinker wrote: »Here is another article from last September, great ideas but very costly to implement.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/green-eco-plan-adds-836415000-to-house-cost-1085476.html0 -
Secondly, even if one of these houses was to cost an extra €15,000, this would easily be recouped in energy savings during the house's lifetime.
True of course, but when building a house every extra cent is an expense. A neighbour of mine currently building a house wanted to put in either geothermal or wood pellets and got various quotes but unfortunatly just could not afford either in the short run. If they got approved with a larger mortgage maybe but not always easy.
Forgot to say, some of the quotes were significantly more that €15,000.0 -
Motor tax for existing cars went up 10% - but this was the first rise in 4 years. Allowing for inflation, there was no rise in motor tax for existing vehicles. For new and imported cars, some people will pay more VRT and motor tax and some will pay less depending on the car they choose. "EVERYONE pays more' is not true.Instead of being radical and perhaps taxing fuel instead of VRT and roadtax so that the poluter pays, they will be increasing tax all round. So that EVERYONE pays more, but the poluter just pays even more than anyone else.
Changing tax rates so that some activities are encouraged and some discouraged is often effective at changing behaviour but always going to be unpopular. Even in this case where the changes for cars were revenue neutral.
The changes in motor tax to an emissions based system, were proposed initially by the EU, implemented by various countries years before us and even flagged by Brian Cowen in 2006 before the Greens entered government so it wasn't a case of Gormley dreaming up these changes on his own.
Government is now having difficulty maintaining tax revenues as the economy slows and will seek to raise rates and think up new taxes. Naturally, FF will try to blame the Greens and this will be lapped up by the bleating public.
Back to your thread title: what other taxes are the greens proposing?0 -
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FF and FG are only puppets for the boys in Brussels. The dogs in the street know this.
The government is a business. They are in the business of gathering as much tax as possible, and then handing out this funding to known associates in the private sector.
really , looks like its been the public sector our taxes have been used to over pay this past few years and regardless of the slowing economy , looks like thats where most of our taxes will go in the future0 -
moe_sizlak wrote: »really , looks like its been the public sector our taxes have been used to over pay this past few years and regardless of the slowing economy , looks like thats where most of our taxes will go in the future
A bit of both in fairness. I remember doing a pyschometric test for the civil service 2 years ago. Over 2000 people for 15 jobs, you only have to look at the pay scales/holiday time/sick leave/pensions (i could keep going) to figure out why. It also appears to be very much a closed shop. They should have a space on the application where you could mention relatives, friends or whatever because in the end thats how you get in.
Then you also have to look at the handing out of state contracts which is based on a similar concept. Look at the west link toll bridge. Talk about the biggest scam this country has seen in a while, and there is more to come on that front.
However as I mentioned people should not expect anything from the government.0 -
From reading most of these posts I get the feeling that people actually enjoy paying taxes. Have you heard of my "save the whales foundation"?0
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So now you disagree with the concept of taxes, along with our government? Maybe you should get your own thread.0
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Yes. Every five years the government is accountable to the people in a general election, during which, people can show their approval of government policies by re-electing them, or their disapproval by electing somebody else.I agree with an accountable government with an accountable tax policy. Are you telling me that both are present in this country?
Do you think there should be more direct democracy? Perhaps the budget should be ratified by a referendum. Is this what you're thinking?0 -
...civil service pensions...
That seems to be everyones favourite whipping-boy now.
Businesses over the last few years have decided en-masse that having good employee pension schemes was taking far far too much money away from upper-level management bonuses and shareholder profits.
Now the pressure is on for the govt. to trim some fat from these juicy public-sector pensions and hand it over it to, you guessed it, the same people (top earners and businesses), in the form of tax cuts...
After all, everyone should really be boiled up and sold for glue once they've become too old to work any more so count your blessings...
Funny thing is, I remember when the economic garden looked so rosy some years ago the monkey-boys in civil service/public sector jobs were being laughed at because they were stuck on low wages when similarly qualified people in the private sector were raking it in...0 -
Yes. Every five years the government is accountable to the people in a general election, during which, people can show their approval of government policies by re-electing them, or their disapproval by electing somebody else.
Do you think there should be more direct democracy? Perhaps the budget should be ratified by a referendum. Is this what you're thinking?
I think any government official taking bribes etc. should be shot, and that is no joke. People elect these clowns remember.
I myself do not vote and never have. If I want to see a circus I go and watch one, however I dont waste my time voting for what is a political circus.
Do people not get sick of the promises and then all the rubbish 6 months later about "tightening our belts". It happens time and time again.0 -
fly_agaric wrote: »That seems to be everyones favourite whipping-boy now.
Businesses over the last few years have decided en-masse that having good employee pension schemes was taking far far too much money away from upper-level management bonuses and shareholder profits.
Now the pressure is on for the govt. to trim some fat from these juicy public-sector pensions and hand it over it to, you guessed it, the same people (top earners and businesses), in the form of tax cuts...
After all, everyone should really be boiled up and sold for glue once they've become too old to work any more so count your blessings...
Funny thing is, I remember when the economic garden looked so rosy some years ago the monkey-boys in civil service/public sector jobs were being laughed at because they were stuck on low wages when similarly qualified people in the private sector were raking it in...
A job for life was never a bad thing no matter what the economic outlook may be at any given time. Of course life as a fat cat would be better again, but as I said its who you know.0 -
I think any government official taking bribes etc. should be shot, and that is no joke. People elect these clowns remember.
Perhaps the people who vote for these clowns should be shot :rolleyes:
Your concept of democracy would go down rather well in 1930s Germany.I myself do not vote and never have.
Then I can categorically state, without fear of contradiction, that you are an absolute idiot.0 -
No more personal attacks please, and no more off-topic posting. If you're not clear what the topic is, read the thread title.
casey212, if you try to do the same thing with this forum you tried with Green Issues, you'll get the same outcome. This is your only warning.
Back on topic.0 -
Goyz, the Greens have sensible 'polluter-pay' taxation policies. They're fully behind a car taxation system which encourages people to leave the car at home when they can by abolishing the flat-rate tax.
But look at the political reality, dudes. You have a small party with good ideas representing a small constituency, and then you have FF and civil servants not wanting to make trouble for themselves. So, good as the Greens' actual proposals were, they never get implemented in a way that is right and fair for the Irish people. That's the realpolitik.
On the subject of bin charges, look: Councils have no other means to raise revenue. We're supposed to have a system of local government in this country, but it's completely dysfunctional. The idea behind local government is for democracy to be closer to people, and for essential public services - schools, transport, health, sanitation etc. - to be more responsive to the needs of communities. But because the system doesn't work well, because most decisions are made by central government and a plethora of unaccountable agencies appointed by Bertie's team, because government funding is inadequate and councils have lost the ability to raise their own revenues to provide what services they can, our country is in the stink.
Instead of saying: 'right, X% of my income goes to Dublin, Y% goes to my council, and I get to decide how that's spent in my area', we've got people being sent to Mountjoy for refusing to pay itty bitty bin charges when the problem really is the lack of civic engagement and genuine democracy in this country.
We have to get real about the problems in this country. One of them is this: we want more services, but we want to pay less for them. How does this make sense?
Exactly.. the greens habve implemented more of their election manifesto than you would think. they have implemented small changes as well as large ones..0 -
ednwireland wrote: »i actually agree (gave greens a preference) but its all stick and no carrot. i beleive its easier to introduce new taxes rather the do something that will help the environment (how about getting rid of vat on green products) its a bit like introducing new laws to solve speeding and drink driving rather than enforcing the existing laws.
govs like to be seen to be doing something if it doesnt work they can blame the people for not doing it.
i would love to put in solar water heating and wind power to power my home but i cant afford it.
again i think the situation needs to be re- examined. the greens have 6 seats in this government agains a much more powerful and more numerous Fianna fail so i think that the greens can't be expected to be the ruling force in the government. all they can do is make changes proportional to their power and numbers in government.. also the vrt i believe is helping the environment as at present there are far too many SUVs and completely unnecessary vehicles on the streets of our towns and cities. and since the greens have been in government(only since june 2007) public transport expenditure has gone up, as well has the grants and new inclusion of energy companies for Research and Develpment grants.
Eamonn Ryan our energy minister(green party) recently announced ambitious plans to look into the idea that ireland could have almost 50% of it's electricity supply from renewable sources which would reducve our emissions from fossil fuels by 25% as a nation. so big sweeping changes are being made but we just have tol ook away from the anit green media for this and realise that ther ehas been a huge change in political attitudes in our country since the greens took power and maybe now for once we are seeing politicians put action in as well as blow hot air!
as for wanting to install solar panels etc.. grants have gone up and i think if foresight is used it is clear that coupled with the grants the new installation will pay for itself in a matter of years as well as help the environment and possibly save our economy from total collapse in the future if our use of fossil fuels and dependancy on out dated technologies continues... it could be bye bye modern life!0 -
The_Minister wrote: »Has any party, ever, in all of Irish history, ever achieved its manifesto? No.
That manifesto reflects the goals of the party, what they would like to achieve, and what they will lobby for, in government.
A coalition government is about co-operation and compromise, it applies to every party that you can name. There was not a PD Minister for Transport in that timeframe, so they would have had to negotiate with FF to try to get their policy implemented (and alot of it has been promised under Transport 21, even if it is late)
I think much of the ire with Greens aside from their spin on "look at what we've done" is the fact that politically they have rolled over completely. I know some people who are involved with the Greens and they are delighted with it all.
Many others outside the fold are not. The high risk strategy the Greens seem to be employing will certainly tar them as FF lackeys like the PDs. For me that is a serious consideration at any future election. If voting for Green party candidates means the current version of FF getting back in again my vote will go elsewhere.
Even Labour, in that ill-fated FF 94 coalition, despite their desire to implement their own manifesto, at least had the integrity to tell FF where to go.
As for the Green ministers I don't think they are terribly good. Gormley suffers from a combination of naviety and the urge to tell people how much they've done. I am not sure what it is Eamon Ryan is supposed to be doing. And as for that paragon of virtue Sargent, well you wouldn't trust a word out of his mouth now would you. The attitude of the Greens seem to be bask in the glory now because God knows if we'll ever get the chance again. If so I wish them well but it doesn't strike me as a good long-term policy.0 -
Goyz, the Greens have sensible 'polluter-pay' taxation policies. They're fully behind a car taxation system which encourages people to leave the car at home when they can by abolishing the flat-rate tax.
Yes, sensible if you live close to a bus/train route. If you don't then it is stupid. To take public transport to work one-way takes me 2 and half hours to go 12 miles. In a car 18-20 minutes. Oh yea, and that is if I go before rush hour starts although with the time involved that isn't an option. Bus stop is only 2 minutes walk from my house.
The only reason I think removing VRT is a bad idea is that because the green party will ensure you end up paying more in petrol tax then the VRT cost, which in turn will raise prices of everything.when the problem really is the lack of civic engagement and genuine democracy in this country.
I can't see how someone complaining that they are already paying taxes are expected to pay for their bins as well as being against democracy.0 -
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Yes, sensible if you live close to a bus/train route. If you don't then it is stupid. To take public transport to work one-way takes me 2 and half hours to go 12 miles.
That's an unlucky combination, wherever it is that you live.
I think there are ways to improve commuting time for plenty of people though, something like a bunch of park and rides outside the m50 with shuttles to public transport hubs in the city etc.
is_that_so, what more did you expect of the Green minsters so far? I'm not saying ur right or wrong, just you seem to know more about what they do than I do, and I'm wondering what your expectations were?
Would u say the FF ministers are 'better'? and why?0 -
I have low expectations of ministers at the best of times. The Greens before the election were against the M3 , for ethics in government and inclined to put FF in its place. None of this has happened. Gormley in his first 100 days constantly trumpeted how well he was doing things, yet he admitted he "couldn't do anything" about the M3. He managed to upset the EU by not telling to them about his "light bulbs". He offered to give away his pay increase, something which would have been illegal anyway under ethics legislation. Why didn't he just refuse it?
Ryan has a brief to do something, I am not sure what. Yes, you can announce targets for renewables but we are talking about the lifetime of two governments. What has he actually done apart from that?
Much of what they stand for environmentally has to happen anyway, either by dint of Kyoto standards or because of "global warming". Any of the other parties can just cover themselves in Green and they have no real purpose.
On ethics I'd trust a 5 year old's promise sooner.
As for FF
Well I reckon there are a number worth talking about:
Biffo, Hanafin,Harney(PD in name only),Brian Lenihan(although his brother has recovered from the "kebabs" incident) and possibly Dermot Ahern (dolly mixture comment aside).0 -
So you think that the Greens supporting Fianna Fail in government is unethical. But...is_that_so wrote: »The Greens before the election were against the M3 , for ethics in government and inclined to put FF in its place. None of this has happened.
On ethics I'd trust a 5 year old's promise sooner.
you think Fianna Failers supporting Bertie Ahern as leader of their party IS ethical?is_that_so wrote: »Well I reckon there are a number worth talking about:
Biffo, Hanafin,Harney(PD in name only),Brian Lenihan(although his brother has recovered from the "kebabs" incident) and possibly Dermot Ahern (dolly mixture comment aside).is_that_so wrote: »I have low expectations of ministers at the best of times
You don't expect ministers to do anything.. then when you don't understand what it is they do, you feel it is their fault because they must be doing nothing.. which is what you expected anyway.is_that_so wrote: »Ryan has a brief to do something, I am not sure what... What has he actually done?
Dude, you're not making a whole lot of sense to me!
Since you are asking, I think Ryan's biggest achievement has been to persuade Cowen to give more money in the budget for grants for solar installation, wave energy research and crucially a pilot scheme for giving grants for people to better insulate their old houses.0 -
is_that_so wrote: »I have low expectations of ministers at the best of times. The Greens before the election were against the M3 , for ethics in government and inclined to put FF in its place. None of this has happened. Gormley in his first 100 days constantly trumpeted how well he was doing things, yet he admitted he "couldn't do anything" about the M3. He managed to upset the EU by not telling to them about his "light bulbs". He offered to give away his pay increase, something which would have been illegal anyway under ethics legislation. Why didn't he just refuse it?
Ryan has a brief to do something, I am not sure what. Yes, you can announce targets for renewables but we are talking about the lifetime of two governments. What has he actually done apart from that?
Much of what they stand for environmentally has to happen anyway, either by dint of Kyoto standards or because of "global warming". Any of the other parties can just cover themselves in Green and they have no real purpose.
On ethics I'd trust a 5 year old's promise sooner.
As for FF
Well I reckon there are a number worth talking about:
Biffo, Hanafin,Harney(PD in name only),Brian Lenihan(although his brother has recovered from the "kebabs" incident) and possibly Dermot Ahern (dolly mixture comment aside).
I see. You do politics by newspaper, I hadn't realised. All makes perfect sense now. Everything in your post has been blared by a headline at some stage or other.
For example, the 'first 100 days' crap. That is a hangover from a US commentator remarking how you can tell the type of president that will be, based on the legislation that they sign/veto in the first 100 days. Not having the same system of government is just one of the reasons that won't apply here.
"Ryan has a brief to do something, I am not sure what." And you must be too lazy to go to the dept website.
"The Greens before the election were against the M3 , for ethics in government and inclined to put FF in its place. None of this has happened."
I agree with you that they were for that before the election, and I also agree that they are good principles. But how long do you think it will take to change Irish politics if people are bitching about the greens when they're only just after getting their legs under the table?
If the Greens were to rock the boat too publicly, that would be scandal, picked up by the press and as a result something small might be blown out of all proportion. Give them some farting space and stop being so quick to judge until you've walked a mile in their shoes.
The point is that the Greens are probably still all of the things that they were before the election, except now they have a voice at cabinet. A small voice, nonetheless, an influence. If they start to get tiresome, FF knew that they could jettison them.
If you want them to have bigger influence in the next government, so that they can approach the kind of government that their manifesto promises (which, by definition, is an aspirational thing that you can really only deliver if you get 80 elected TDs and good economic luck) - then I would recommend that you get out campaigning and try and get more people to vote for them the next time.0 -
I see. You do politics by newspaper, I hadn't realised. All makes perfect sense now. Everything in your post has been blared by a headline at some stage or other.
For example, the 'first 100 days' crap. That is a hangover from a US commentator remarking how you can tell the type of president that will be, based on the legislation that they sign/veto in the first 100 days. Not having the same system of government is just one of the reasons that won't apply here.
100 days may be trite and not necessarily applicable but it is convenient to measure things by. It sets a standard. Many jobs still give a 3 month probation. At this stage I'd be wondering is this guy up to the job? I am veering towards no."Ryan has a brief to do something, I am not sure what." And you must be too lazy to go to the dept website.
What has he done and what does he actually do rather than say? Visions are great without action."The Greens before the election were against the M3 , for ethics in government and inclined to put FF in its place. None of this has happened."
I agree with you that they were for that before the election, and I also agree that they are good principles. But how long do you think it will take to change Irish politics if people are bitching about the greens when they're only just after getting their legs under the table?
It's called standards and was what got Labour such a thumping when they rolled over. As I said my comments are to do with the politics of it.
If the Greens were to rock the boat too publicly, that would be scandal, picked up by the press and as a result something small might be blown out of all proportion. Give them some farting space and stop being so quick to judge until you've walked a mile in their shoes.
See your answer above to this. Well seeing as they were apart of my vote they have had all the farting space they need. i think that they are naive , FF proxies, (even the PDs are capable of taking swipes without brown-nosing) , clumsy and pretty ineffective tbh.The point is that the Greens are probably still all of the things that they were before the election, except now they have a voice at cabinet. A small voice, nonetheless, an influence. If they start to get tiresome, FF knew that they could jettison them.
Yesterday was probably the first time Gormley did not answer as a
"FF" minister. As I said i think their strategy is very high risk. I also think you overestimate their influence, FF don't need them. They are just an insurance policy in the same way that FF have bought the PDs and the independents.If you want them to have bigger influence in the next government, so that they can approach the kind of government that their manifesto promises (which, by definition, is an aspirational thing that you can really only deliver if you get 80 elected TDs and good economic luck) - then I would recommend that you get out campaigning and try and get more people to vote for them the next time.
I doubt that. As I see they have linked themselves with FF, who I see as socially destructive, and on that basis alone I will be looking at alternatives. It's not always about what you want but how you do it. If you try to set standards you must keep to them IMO.0 -
They said they would "put manners on them" and they are all honourable men, especially Trevor.eoinmadden wrote: »So you think that the Greens supporting Fianna Fail in government is unethical. But...
It's called the party Whip and expected.you think Fianna Failers supporting Bertie Ahern as leader of their party IS ethical?You don't expect ministers to do anything.. then when you don't understand what it is they do, you feel it is their fault because they must be doing nothing.. which is what you expected anyway.
Dude, you're not making a whole lot of sense to me!
I said low expectations, by which I meant low expectations of their performance. That comment is based on the current FF gene pool, which I think is seriously limited beyond the ones I mentioned.
If you have a job , justify the expense of having you in that job.
Show you are worth having as a minister.Since you are asking, I think Ryan's biggest achievement has been to persuade Cowen to give more money in the budget for grants for solar installation, wave energy research and crucially a pilot scheme for giving grants for people to better insulate their old houses.
These things were going to happen anyway. Take your pick fom Kyoto, "global warming", high energy costs. Cowen's own special interest is the elderly and disability. It works well for FF either way ,as "the government who brought it in", or "well the Greens botched that up and we gave them the money anyway".
It still begs the questions. Is that it? Some renewables policies, some banned light bulbs and a pilot scheme that FF would probably have been happy to approve no matter who was minister?
I think the Greens are going for short-term gain and it will please their supporters and the rest of us may even benefit from it , but it is the crucial rolling over IMO which will be longer remembered.0 -
What I don't get is Sargent's shenanigans. (I voted for the tosser by the way, won't make that mistake again)
He declares he would never lead his party into government with Fianna Fáil. He then proceeds to lead his party through the negotiations with FF, gives the nod on the deal, personally nominates (or seconds, can't remember) Bertie for Taoiseach, resigns as leader and takes up a junior minister post.
What the **** is the p***k up to? This is what passes as integrity today? Hopefully they will disappear next election.0 -
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That's a fair point. People complain that the Greens have done virtually nothing since they entered government, but when they have influenced anything (light-bulb ban, new road tax setup, which was most likely a compromise between the two parties) people complain.If the Greens were to rock the boat too publicly, that would be scandal, picked up by the press and as a result something small might be blown out of all proportion.
That's a little cynical. FF have been towing the "green" line for years now, without actually doing anything major.is_that_so wrote: »These things were going to happen anyway. Take your pick fom Kyoto, "global warming", high energy costs.
I'm not a huge fan of the Greens myself (although I did vote for Patricia McKenna), but I think people are being a little quick to judge. They can only have so much influence with their 6 seats versus FF's 77.0 -
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That's a little cynical. FF have been towing the "green" line for years now, without actually doing anything major.
I'm not a huge fan of the Greens myself (although I did vote for Patricia McKenna), but I think people are being a little quick to judge. They can only have so much influence with their 6 seats versus FF's 77.
I find the Greens inept and craven and I don't think it has anything to do with time. Just look at the mess that FF managed in a week in the summer, and they've had 10 years at it.
I don't think FF care about anything Green apart from their election posters so who better to let it go to than the Greens.
As with all politics FF will get a lot of the credit and none of the blame.
I also have no doubt that FF supporters might also see your comment about FF Green-ness as cynical.Yet it supports my contention that the Green issues now need to be addressed, and have been forced upon us by a variety of external factors. Facts I would say rather than cynicism.0
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