say goodbye to old ireland

stevoman

seamus wrote: »

All of that thatched cottages and seanchai and fiddly-dee and crap isn't Irish culture. It's american-perpetuated stereotypes and tourist traps.

so Fiddly-dee type music - or should i call it traditional irish music isnt anything to do with irish culture. So what do you mean - The toursist Board just brought in musicians and wrote it all up just to get yanks into the country to spend a few quid?

Qs

seamus wrote: »

Can't stand in the way of progress.

We haven't lost what I believe are the most important aspects of our culture - family, friendship and craic. When we stop basing our lives on these three things, then maybe we can lament, but I haven't seen it happen yet.

Theres very little sense of community in modern Ireland. In the 80s and even the first half of the 90s there was much more emphasis on community, people knew most people who lived near them, there was a common bond etc.

I'm from Wicklow Town and in the late 80s the town biggest employer ended up with its staff striking. The rest of the people in the town bought groceries etc for the families struggling during the strike. Thats what Ireland was. Nowadays almost every strike the country sees is criticized for how it will effect the individual.

Irelands a greedy country now, far too caught up in its SUVs, iPods and designer fashions. Communities barely exist anymore because people only care about themselves.

Thats the death of old Ireland IMO. Moneys all that matters to people now.

seamus

stevoman wrote: »

so Fiddly-dee type music - or should i call it traditional irish music isnt anything to do with irish culture. So what do you mean - The toursist Board just brought in musicians and wrote it all up just to get yanks into the country to spend a few quid?

Actually, I'm talking about the proper stereotypical fiddly-dee crap that sounds nothing like trad music.
In any case, traditional Irish music will continue to see a decline in popularity as the country changes. The music doesn't define the culture, the culture defines the music.

Theres very little sense of community in modern Ireland. In the 80s and even the first half of the 90s there was much more emphasis on community, people knew most people who lived near them, there was a common bond etc.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. The nature of the housing market caused a mixing of peoples that this country hadn't seen all that much before. Whereas in the past people would often settle close to or even in the parental home, the surge in population and house prices caused people to have to spread out. And to change homes way more often that would even be considered in the past.
So while in the past, much of your community was related to you or you knew very well, now this isn't the case so you can't expect the same community feeling straight up.
With the end of the housing boom, we'll see less turnover and the community spirit should begin to regrow in most areas.

CerebralCortex

Qs wrote: »

Theres very little sense of community in modern Ireland. In the 80s and even the first half of the 90s there was much more emphasis on community, people knew most people who lived near them, there was a common bond etc.

I'm from Wicklow Town and in the late 80s the town biggest employer ended up with its staff striking. The rest of the people in the town bought groceries etc for the families struggling during the strike. Thats what Ireland was. Nowadays almost every strike the country sees is criticized for how it will effect the individual.

Irelands a greedy country now, far too caught up in its SUVs, iPods and designer fashions. Communities barely exist anymore because people only care about themselves.

Thats the death of old Ireland IMO. Moneys all that matters to people now.

Thats a bit sweeping. Also that revered community you speak about required a certain amount of criteria were met before you could be part of it if I rightly remember it. Being Catholic for one.

purple'n'gold

What really makes my skin crawl is “music” and I use the word very broadly by the likes of Big Tom etc being described as “Irish music”. It’s absolutely nauseating.

GuanYin

seamus wrote: »

With the end of the housing boom, we'll see less turnover and the community spirit should begin to regrow in most areas.

I agree with pretty much everything you've posted, but I do think that the Irish "Craic and Community" is more than just about town planning.

One of the big things I've noticed in other Countries is how transient friendships and communities can be, in Ireland, there seems to be a stronger bond with friends and family that is unbroken over time and distance.

As an anecdotal example, an Irish girl I work with was being teased by her american colleagues for being a "facebook whore" and having 200+ friends. The girl pointed out that she knew every single person personally and they were friends from home, college and school who kept in touch, albeit sporadically. The americans refused to believe that such was possible. Go figure.


[edit] No idea what the thumbs down thing is there:(

johnnyskeleton

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Cultures need to evolve. We still have an Irish culture its just not most peoples outdated fiddly diddily idea of what Irish culture should be. I'm glad of the change because as I said before I had the misfortune of living in dear old closed minded catholic Ireland. Good riddance.
L

I agree. I don't see myself as being a soulful poet before the boom who turned into a greedy whore who cares nothing for the arts etc because of the economy. I'm older and fatter, but my Irishness hasn't changed.

As for society, well this has changed in that:
we're now more educated about ourselves and world cultures
we now travel more and open our horizons
we have the internet which gives us instant access to the information we need
we are generally richer and enjoy a higher standard of living
we have a much larger variety of foods, music, cultural attractions, jobs, friends, ideas, etc

But we haven't changed in that:
we still talk a lot
we still drink a lot
we still work hard (i.e. we're still fighting)
we are still essentially Irish

Those people who complain about how we are ignoring the Irish language, Irish stories, Irish music etc, well these things have always been a bit naff and unpopular. Even in the time of Cyril Cusac, Eamon DeValera etc (i.e. politicans who wanted to raise awareness of native Irish culture) people didn't really want to know about Irish culture as it was anacronistic. So you will always get people interested in Irish, in the same way you will always get people interested in classical greek and roman texts, but it will always be a nieche - it is too old and outdated to fit into the mainstream. That doesn't mean that someone who listens to Brittney Spears at the weekend can't also enjoy a bit of Sean-nós, just that if you take a superficial, David McWilliams snapshot of Ireland (or any country for that matter), you will only see a superficial image of the country.

What makes us different is the banter, not the diddily idle as CerebralCortex and others point out.

CerebralCortex

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I agree. I don't see myself as being a soulful poet before the boom who turned into a greedy whore who cares nothing for the arts etc because of the economy. I'm older and fatter, but my Irishness hasn't changed.

As for society, well this has changed in that:
we're now more educated about ourselves and world cultures
we now travel more and open our horizons
we have the internet which gives us instant access to the information we need
we are generally richer and enjoy a higher standard of living
we have a much larger variety of foods, music, cultural attractions, jobs, friends, ideas, etc

But we haven't changed in that:
we still talk a lot
we still drink a lot
we still work hard (i.e. we're still fighting)
we are still essentially Irish

Those people who complain about how we are ignoring the Irish language, Irish stories, Irish music etc, well these things have always been a bit naff and unpopular. Even in the time of Cyril Cusac, Eamon DeValera etc (i.e. politicans who wanted to raise awareness of native Irish culture) people didn't really want to know about Irish culture as it was anacronistic. So you will always get people interested in Irish, in the same way you will always get people interested in classical greek and roman texts, but it will always be a nieche - it is too old and outdated to fit into the mainstream. That doesn't mean that someone who listens to Brittney Spears at the weekend can't also enjoy a bit of Sean-nós, just that if you take a superficial, David McWilliams snapshot of Ireland (or any country for that matter), you will only see a superficial image of the country.

What makes us different is the banter, not the diddily idle as CerebralCortex and others point out.

Exactly. And that banter runs of on the people from overseas I think. Take my expat friends for example. I see them as Irish as me because Ireland now is a place where more people want to live and be part of Ireland(being Irish) which is fantastic.

djpbarry

psi wrote: »

One of the big things I've noticed in other Countries is how transient friendships and communities can be, in Ireland, there seems to be a stronger bond with friends and family that is unbroken over time and distance.

I think that's a bit unfair. My wife grew up in London but she's been living here for 5 years now. She's still good friends with a number of people she went to school with and her school-friends are in turn still friends with other people they knew at school. I find that quite rare among people I know. I find Irish people pretty lazy when it comes to keeping in touch.

johnnyskeleton

Qs wrote: »

I'm from Wicklow Town and in the late 80s the town biggest employer ended up with its staff striking. The rest of the people in the town bought groceries etc for the families struggling during the strike. Thats what Ireland was. Nowadays almost every strike the country sees is criticized for how it will effect the individual.

Irelands a greedy country now, far too caught up in its SUVs, iPods and designer fashions.

Is it possible that back in those days people were striking out of necessity hence community support but now people are striking for what you call greed, hence people don't support them?

Qs wrote:

Communities barely exist anymore because people only care about themselves.

Maybe the old genroe communities (these are your neighbours, you're stuck with them, we don't trust outsiders) have been replaced by communities based on mutual interest - online politics fora for example? Are you posting here because you don't care about anybody else except yourself?

Qs wrote:

Thats the death of old Ireland IMO. Moneys all that matters to people now.

First off, you can never say that money is all that matters to people, because if it was there would be no books, no music, no art, no film, no social life, etc. All these things seem to have increased during the boom time (as money was spread around a bit). On the contrary, I firmly believe that we think about money a lot less now that we have some than when we didn't. Back then it was all about trying to get enough money together to stay alive, now we have time to sit back and enjoy our interests.

jmayo

Have to agree how we are better off with getting out from under the shackles of the Catholic Church and brushing all the "sinful" things (aka anything sexual in nature) under the carpet.
Hell we have even grown up about letting "foreign" sports be played in the temple of Gaeldom, Croker.

We are economically better off because we no longer have to take the boat or plane to find work elsewhere. How long that will last is another debate.
Yes we have and will benefit genetically/culturally from having immigrants dilute the gene pool. God we needed it.

But, yes there is a but, we have become so American.
We really are the 51st state of the union.
Compare us to any other European or Western nation and we have cloned ourselves on America.

Let's all have a SUV, a BMW convertible, Las Vegas lights at Christmas, sweet sixteens, a limo and bouncing castle for the first communion, a helicopter to the races, a holiday home in Spain/Florida or Bulgaria if we are a bit poorer, a trip to New York for the Christmas shopping, a designer handbag and line of coke.

Greed is good and thus who cares if the healthcare system is crap, civil society is falling apart with gang warfare shootouts result.
The motto is now "I am alright, so why should I care if someone else is shot or lying on a trolley dying of misdiagnosed cancer".
Otherwise how can anyone explain how the last government was reinstated afterall it's cockups, neglect and question marks over it's members finances?

A lot of our kids of 12/13 are now binge drinking and some of the girls are giving blow**** to lads of 17 or 18 in the car parks of kids discos.
When they grow up a few years they will be sniffing coke off the cisterns in the jacks.
Celebrity is now the goal in life, give me my fifteen minutes of fame is the demand. Mammy and Daddy will try and buy it as well to compensate for the fact that they no longer see their kids half of the time thanks to their long commute to work and the fact they have to compete with the Jones across the road.

DublinWriter

stevoman wrote: »

Does anybody else here think that we as a nation completly sold out on our culture for the sake of "modernisation" and a few extra quid?

Culture? What culture?

I grew up in a working class area of Dublin in the 70's and 80's. It was grim, but not as grim as the Ireland of the 40's and 50's that my father grew up in and eventually emigrated from to work as a navvie in London.

I really would love to know what particular culture you're alluding to here stevoman, considering that nearly all our best and greatest authors were censored by the state and their works were never made available to Irish people during their lifetimes.

The only thing I'm vaguely nostalgic about and miss is our laid-back attitude to life. That's gone. We've become almost puritanical in our intolerance to every little inconvenience in our lives.

...and by the way, when someone tells you that in the olden days you could leave your front door open...that was because no-one had anything worth robbing!

So stevoman, please tell us what culture we've lost?

cabinteelytom

Irish culture? I would have to think of values and attitudes, present over centuries which are still extant today:
Extreme independence of thought; undoubtedly a product of being preached at for centuries (and not only by the catholic church).
Suspicion of 'the Government'. Preference for NGOs.
Egalitarianism. 'Honours' system is anathema.
Sheer mad craziness , from faction fighters to civil war and boy racers.
Distaste of cruelty. Burning of heretics, witches, elaborate means of execution-not by native Irish.
Respect and nostalgia for 'the past'. 'Great men whose likes will not be seen again'.
Continuous sense of national identity since dawn of recorded history (in europe only Greeks have an older tradition.)
Inhibitions about nudity-since days of Cuchulain.
Pervasive sense`of shame (formerly called catholic guilt) and inferiority wrt foreigners. (I personally lack this one, but that's probably the west brit in me. Very few Irish are completely pure bred.)
That's all I can think of for now.

DublinWriter

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Egalitarianism. 'Honours' system is anathema.

Yes indeedy. Try getting a job in the Irish print media without a connection on the inside. The old "it's not what you know, it's who you know" rule is still applicable in many sectors in this country.

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Sheer mad craziness , from faction fighters to civil war and boy racers.

Yes, dig that wild and crazy way we were the first country in Europe to implement a smoking ban and tax plastic bags. Despite the rebellious image we have of ourselves, we could give the Germans a close second in how to obey the rules (we'd lose of course!).

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Distaste of cruelty. Burning of heretics, witches, elaborate means of execution-not by native Irish.

Three words - Irish Civil War. We proved that we were more brutal to our own than to the British.

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Respect and nostalgia for 'the past'. 'Great men whose likes will not be seen again'.

Just like the ripping up of the rememberence trees on O'Connell St. and replacing them with a gigantic pole with a light on top costing 3 million.

The Spike says more about modern Ireland than we'd like to admit.

Hotblack Desiato

DublinWriter wrote: »

Yes, dig that wild and crazy way we were the first country in Europe to implement a smoking ban and tax plastic bags. Despite the rebellious image we have of ourselves, we could give the Germans a close second in how to obey the rules (we'd lose of course!).

I'd have to disagree, just look at any street and see how well the Road Traffic Acts and Litter Acts are observed. The smoking ban only works because of peer pressure - has any smoker ever been fined the threatened €3000, or anything remotely close to it? It's still generally regarded as unacceptable to 'shop' a welfare fraudster or tax dodger.

djpbarry

ninja900 wrote: »

The smoking ban only works because of peer pressure - has any smoker ever been fined the threatened €3000, or anything remotely close to it?

There have been a few I think. Here's one anyway:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1015/smoking.html

stevoman

DublinWriter wrote: »

Just like the ripping up of the rememberence trees on O'Connell St. and replacing them with a gigantic pole with a light on top costing 3 million.

The Spike says more about modern Ireland than we'd like to admit.

well said....

Zombrex

DublinWriter wrote: »

The Spike says more about modern Ireland than we'd like to admit.

TBH I think the Spire is more a throw back to "old" Ireland that we would like to admit, this idea that we need to impress the outside world with how wonderful we are (worlds largest sculpture don't ya know).

The Spike was the brain child of old people who don't understand the new world, yet pretend they do. It is the same mentality that gave us the hideous buildings such as the dept. of health near Tara St, and the Dublin Corp buildings. This isn't a new thing, we have always f**ked up a supposed embrace of modernity.

To answer the OP's question, anyone who has ever put a BSKYB dish on the side of their house has "sold out" Irish culture. But then is that such a bad thing? Irish culture from the 1920s on was pretty crap.

DublinWriter

ninja900 wrote: »

I'd have to disagree, just look at any street and see how well the Road Traffic Acts and Litter Acts are observed.

They are observed pretty damn well as far as I can see. Have you ever tried driving around Rome or Paris?

As for the litter, I'd say the same. The Dublin of today is far cleaner than the Dublin of the late 70's where the streets were paved with litter.

purple'n'gold

Since the smoking ban came in the streets of every town in Ireland are in a disgusting state with cigarette ends. That’s not to speak of the chewing gum. And every time I go out I see lots of people driving using mobile phones.

stevoman

DublinWriter wrote: »

They are observed pretty damn well as far as I can see. Have you ever tried driving around Rome or Paris?

As for the litter, I'd say the same. The Dublin of today is far cleaner than the Dublin of the late 70's where the streets were paved with litter.

Im from Co. Laois and around the Portarlington, Portlaoise, Mountmellick area the litter on the county roads is terrible. I was recently talking to an american working here for a year and she said ireland was a lovely country, but the only thing she could not understand is how we allow our country to be so badly littered. New York a city of 8 million poeple and they dont have half of the litter on the streets as we do and i know that from living there for a few years.

moe_sizlak

were a disgrace here as regards litter

djpbarry

DublinWriter wrote: »

The Dublin of today is far cleaner than the Dublin of the late 70's where the streets were paved with litter.

purplengold wrote: »

Since the smoking ban came in the streets of every town in Ireland are in a disgusting state with cigarette ends. That’s not to speak of the chewing gum.

I'm with purple'n'gold on this one. I'm sick to death of seeing smokers throw their buts on the ground. While I would agree that certain parts of the city are cleaner than they used to be, we still have along way to go.

fly_agaric

DublinWriter wrote: »

As for the litter, I'd say the same. The Dublin of today is far cleaner than the Dublin of the late 70's where the streets were paved with litter.

That's only because the Sh..., ehm City Council can afford a few street cleaning machines and workers to run them now. I don't remember seeing them going thither and yon all day around the centre of dublin in the "good old days".
Dublin is cleaner but the people are still filthy pigs.
I'd love to see the state of O'Connell St. if they stopped cleaning it for a fortnight...

CerebralCortex

Littering recks my head. Its not just kids doing I've seen adults without a second thought spitting gum onto the ground.

Pigs.

Hotblack Desiato

djpbarry wrote: »

There have been a few I think. Here's one anyway:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1015/smoking.html

:rolleyes: That's a publican, not a customer who was smoking, and the fine was only €100 anyway. Does anyone know of a single customer being fined? I have my doubts.

Hotblack Desiato

DublinWriter wrote: »

They are observed pretty damn well as far as I can see. Have you ever tried driving around Rome or Paris?

Not Rome, but Turin, it wasn't that bad. Paris is better than Dublin (and yes I did go around the Arc de Triomphe). Anyway. You were comparing us to the Germans. If you've driven there it would be obvious to you that they are far better drivers than us, people obey rules there!

As for the litter, I'd say the same. The Dublin of today is far cleaner than the Dublin of the late 70's where the streets were paved with litter.

As others have pointed out, this is just down to more resources for street cleaning (in some places - others like some suburban town centres are in a terrible state.) As a nation we are an ignorant, filthy, selfish lot always looking for a way to beat the system.

djpbarry

ninja900 wrote: »

That's a publican, not a customer who was smoking, and the fine was only €100 anyway. Does anyone know of a single customer being fined?

Is it not the responsibility of the publican to enforce the ban and hence, he/she is liable if the ban is not observed?

Hotblack Desiato

djpbarry wrote: »

Is it not the responsibility of the publican to enforce the ban and hence, he/she is liable if the ban is not observed?

Both parties are committing an offence.

purple'n'gold

Try going for a walk around the western suburbs of Wexford town, but, do not look at the view, look at the foot path at all times or else you will walk in dog dirt. Another interesting part of Irish culture, own a dog and let him crap all over the footpath. I would be very interested to know how many of these complex machines for turning chum into sh1te have licenses. We were delighted with the heavy rain the other night, it partially cleaned the footpaths.