say goodbye to old ireland

Mr.Micro

Talking about the old Ireland, we seem to have reverted back to it with regards to the minor roads and even the roads in the towns. Potholes and more potholes, are appearing, just like the good old days. Vast sums generated in car tax and the County Councils do even less. Reassuring that your new 08 vehicle has a pothole waiting for it.

GuanYin

Interesting that noone has mentioned the decline of the church in all this.

From the late 1980's back, the Catholic Church was a large presence looming over Irish culture. Alot of the changes we see in Irish culture are probably a direct consequence of the declne of the church's power in Ireland.

jmayo

psi wrote: »

Interesting that noone has mentioned the decline of the church in all this.

From the late 1980's back, the Catholic Church was a large presence looming over Irish culture. Alot of the changes we see in Irish culture are probably a direct consequence of the declne of the church's power in Ireland.

Ah come on PSI I did mention we were out from under the shackles of the RC.
Thankfully we no longer hide away young pregnant unmarried mothers and force them to do slave labour. We have also learnt to no longer trust the local priest with our children.
We no longer let chruchmen dictate our method of contraception or what we do in the privacy of our own homes. We also now know what a lot of them were doing in private.

The exposure of Bishop Casey's affair was a major turning point in Irish history I believe.

If you look at last 15/17 years you will find that all previous holders of moral authority have been shown for what they really were.
The church, the GARDA, the Banks, teachers, politicans and the legal profession have all been exposed for their dodgy acts.
Yes I know it was only some of the members, but I think what did the most damage was that there were coverups and inaction that allowed this behaviour to carry on.

gandalf

Interesting that the OP has still not defined what he means by Irish Culture. He obviously feels so strongly about it that he must know what it is. I would like him to define it because at the moment I have a feeling he means that too many people are walking around with the wrong coloured skin. I am prepared to be proven wrong of course.

stevoman

gandalf wrote: »

Interesting that the OP has still not defined what he means by Irish Culture. He obviously feels so strongly about it that he must know what it is. I would like him to define it because at the moment I have a feeling he means that too many people are walking around with the wrong coloured skin. I am prepared to be proven wrong of course.

Well you couldnt be more wrong. First of all what i feel so stongly about, to me, is that I beleive Old Ireland is Gone, and i am sorry to see it.
I have great appreciation for the generation that i have grown up in, as to me i got to see some of the old traditions and ways of old Irish life that will be soon gone forever as our society is changing so quickly.

I remember when i was growing up in a in a small town, or at least it used to be, and ife in Ireland was so much more simpler. Everybody knew each other and where genuinally concerned for the neighbours and a great bond in the community always in the air. When the news was on the television there was'nt a murder over drugs every second day and people in general respected the law. I also remember when the pressure were not on every mother in the country to get ot on work regardless if they want to or not so as to keep there heads above water and pay massive mortgages. I also remember before Irish people got extremely materialistic and had to start buying Flash cars, Houses in Bulgaria and the best of everything else so they could keep up with the jones's. Now when you go anywhere all you have to listen to is people waffling on about the "property market" (even myself to im ashamed to say). I finally sat back and thought to myself "is this where we'v gone? What was a small town i grew up in is now a "sattellite town" with nothing in it at all except estate after estate after estate, not even marketed with a hint of an Irish name or anything remotly related to the towns history, just fancy names made up to what would sound good to a prospective buyers and the rest of the town left with no facilitys for anyone living here except a train station. Is this where we want Ireland to go, to lose ls ways and be swept into a new world of dog eat dog so as we can all be flashy and have a few ero's in our pockets. well to be honest, not me.

The reason why i didnt bother posting in this thread anymore gandalf is that i wanted to hear what others thought of the ways Ireland is changing and are we going to lose our culture. You want me to define Irish culture? Well what i beleive irish culture is family life, simple good values and respect for other people, parish, town and county pride. Most of the things here i beleive are missing from the modern Ireland we live in now where the Euro is god and people will knock you over to get what they want.

After i posted here gandalf i beleived that members where not of the same opinion as me so i decided what was th point in trying to get into a big debate, some people have made their opinions and i have mine and this is he last post i am making on this thread as i beleive eveyone has made thier point.

As regards your feelings that i am a racist, i would quickly like to point out i am not anything of the sort. Why should anyone not be given the right to come into the country if they are willing to abide by the law, and are willng to work hard. Any problem that any Irish person you talk to now will tell you the same thing, its people who are willing to take take take from the Goverment and dont work and have zero input into the economy are the people the general working public do not like, whatever nationallity or ethnic race, or province, county or town they may be from.

Pete4779

stevoman wrote: »

just a quick question too see does anyone agree with me.

Does anybody else here think that we as a nation completly sold out on our culture for the sake of "modernisation" and a few extra quid?

I think so and to be honest and i solely blame the goverment and next in line after them are the greedy builders.

views????

I see in your profile you list leinster as your location. That is your problem - Dublin has always been and acted like a mini-London, hence the "West Brit" and "on the mainland" type of attitude (i.e., buy, sell, everything and nobody is worth anything).

Outside of the pale, things are fine. Try visiting Galway for a good dose of Irish culture and friendliness, and with far far less orientation to money. I complain about Galway but TBH there is also a side that is the antithesis of the new-Anglo-Saxon culture of Dublin, and that is great. Dublin is not the definition of Ireland, Irish, culture, or anything like it, unless you believe all the crap spouted by mainstream journalists and Dublin-centric politicians.

I recommend going to Aras na nGael, etc., As a city, Dublin has sold out. The nation is still there despite it, Irish is still the first language of the state, etc., . It's just perspective.

Only a tiny percentage of people actually emigrated from Ireland in the "bad old days" - probably relatively no more than any country that wasn't sucking in wealth from the rest of the world. Old Ireland wasn't Angela's Ashes or Ryan's Daughter or The Quiet Man - this is for me anyway an utterly fictionaly "past" of poverty and ignorance that I nor the people I know, ever existed in.

Likewise, a small percentage of people have SUVs, etc., . Ignore the media reporting and get some perspective.

Pete4779

djpbarry wrote: »

Most people don't want to learn Irish - it is wrong to force it on them. Best to leave it to the people who have a genuine interest.

Are Irish plays and poetry not an integral part of Leaving Cert English? They were when I sat the exam.

Agreed.

The UK is 92% white (86% "white British"). I'd hardly call it a "mongrel nation".

This is true, but there are two big things that influence people's impression of a culture or nation:
1. They tend to visit big cities - the natural magnetic pull for people from any country, and so you visit Birmingham and think it's the norm - it isn't
2. The media reporting predominantly focusses on that city mentality, that what happens outside their offices is the real world.

If you avoid visiting cities and stop reading the Mail and the Guardian, suddenly Britain isn't being invaded by Africa and it's not a good/bad thing but a small percentage of population in a big city.

CerebralCortex

psi wrote: »

Interesting that noone has mentioned the decline of the church in all this.

From the late 1980's back, the Catholic Church was a large presence looming over Irish culture. Alot of the changes we see in Irish culture are probably a direct consequence of the declne of the church's power in Ireland.

Which is brilliant. I think I mentioned it earlier on.

luckat

Holding my nose to step distastefully over the mess of masochistic self-hatred...

No, Irish culture is not gone.

The language has had a struggling few years, but is beginning to come back, thanks to the gaelscoileanna and people who want to speak Irish. The next generation will have the power of the Fiannaiocht, the poetry tradition and the music tradition, and a sound grounding in the visual arts of medieval Irish craftwork.

The culture is changing, but it's strong - wonderful books, music and art coming out. We could do with our own publishers realising that they're in a position to take over the European market if they just took advantage of the talent on their doorstep, but that's for the next generation.

It's very, very early, but you can already see the seminal influence of the immigrants from Africa, the Middle East and Eastern Europe on the arts, which is going to give a *huge* boost to Irish writing and other arts - the place you see it most is the music, at the moment.

Hotblack Desiato

Pete4779 wrote: »

As a city, Dublin has sold out. The nation is still there despite it

:rolleyes: Why is it that those who whinge endlessly about Dublin and Dubliners are invariably the same ones looking for more handouts from Dublin taxpayers. Maybe we should declare UDI and see how yiz like that

Tea drinker

gandalf wrote: »

I have a feeling he means that too many people are walking around with the wrong coloured skin. I am prepared to be proven wrong of course.

I have a feeling you WERE proved wrong and didn't retract your untrue statement, meaning you WEREN'T prepared when you told me you would be. Which isn't really ok.

Why do so many people leave Dublin on weekends? I often hear the foreigners saying how much they enjoyed Galway clare connemara etc etc. There's so much to Ireland that is not Dublin, and it's nice to get a change. Sure it's not like the old days - but it's good to see a more relaxed less stressed attitude still prevails outside Dub. It's too stressed and materialistic here. Did my eyes deceive me or did I see an MTV sweet sixteen from dublin on the box today?

Tea drinker

purplengold wrote: »

Try going for a walk around the western suburbs of Wexford town, but, do not look at the view, look at the foot path at all times or else you will walk in dog dirt. Another interesting part of Irish culture, own a dog and let him crap all over the footpath. I would be very interested to know how many of these complex machines for turning chum into sh1te have licenses. We were delighted with the heavy rain the other night, it partially cleaned the footpaths.

It's not as bad as it used to be. Dun Laoghiare pier was one of the heaviest mined areas in the world, with many people suffering unspeakable acts - all in broad daylight. I think they called the UN or something, it's much cleaner now. Anyway, your point is about self obsession, I wholeheartedly agree with you, even their dogs don't give a Sh - oh wait now.
We don't really have that community spirit do we? A nation of begrudgers?

eoin5

Many of us have been sold the american dream but weve managed to keep our heritage. Its all there you just dont see it on your drive to work in the morning. Irish music is making a big comeback with our youngins, its cool again. The change has been for the best overall I think so far since much of the taboos of the older generations have been lifted. Its a pity that weve lost some good morals but I believe well get most of them back eventually as the country evolves a bit more.

Crash

Tea drinker wrote: »

It's too stressed and materialistic here. Did my eyes deceive me or did I see an MTV sweet sixteen from dublin on the box today?

It was Drogheda actually.

Pete4779

ninja900 wrote: »

:rolleyes: Why is it that those who whinge endlessly about Dublin and Dubliners are invariably the same ones looking for more handouts from Dublin taxpayers. Maybe we should declare UDI and see how yiz like that

Well I wasn't whinging about Dublin - that something Dubs seem to do about traffic, filthy hospitals, heroin addicts and gun shootings. JUst like a little London.

The vast majority of tax payers live outside of Dublin but don't see things like the Luas, Dart or other deals. Dublin sucks the money out of the rest of the country.

But enough on Dublin, the question was on Ireland and Irish culture: it's there, it's strong and you need to leave the pale to see it, as it is evident in the rest (read: most of ) the country.

DublinWriter

Pete4779 wrote: »

The vast majority of tax payers live outside of Dublin but don't see things like the Luas, Dart or other deals. Dublin sucks the money out of the rest of the country.

Not really. The majority of private-sector tax payers in this country live in Dublin and the county acts as a revenue generator for the rest of the country.

But that's the problem. The National Spatial Strategy is a multi-million Euro commissioned-report joke. Dublin is at breaking point and we need a decentralisation policy for the private sector. However, I think such a beast based on tax-incentives would contravene EU laws.

As an aside, I love the way some of the younger members here revel in their belief that the power and influence of the Catholic Church is on the decline.

Sorry guys, but just because you stopped going to Mass it doesn't automatically follow that the power of that particular organisation is on the wane. When you grow up some and have kids you'll realise that the Catholic Church still run the so-called primary and secondary state-schools.

Ask yourself the following question as a litmus test of your particular hypocrisy. If you had a child and you had a choice between putting him/her in your local Catholic school and the Educate-Together non-secular school in Blanchardstown of which over 95% of students are of Nigerian parentage, which one would you choose?

amacachi

çrash_000 wrote: »

It was Drogheda actually.

Maybe even Blackrock, just outside Dundalk.

I also remember when the pressure were not on every mother in the country to get ot on work regardless if they want to or not so as to keep there heads above water and pay massive mortgages.

Yeah, fathers just had to get 2 jobs or work 6 ten hour shifts a week to keep the 4 room house they had. I'm 19 and I'm talking about my own parents, who actually saw the 60 year-old house as an improvement.
Any time I catch my parents reminiscing about how things were I ask them was it better and invariably the answer is no.

As for the xenophobia, I just can't believe that it's seen as a new phenomenon. My own dad came down here in the early 70's from the north and was treated like **** by a fair amount of people. The gardaí were constantly on his case for no reason, stopping him on his way to work every morning, and when he changed his route there the same Gardaí would be within a few days, and would take him in for questioning to release him in the afternoon without actually questioning him. Still, it was better than what him and his family had in the North, another little chapter of Ireland's recent history nicely glossed over by those reminiscing fondly.

Of course there are negatives and positives with all changes, and my family certainly isn't well-off, but I know my parents were both at more or less the same level of intellect as me when they were my age, the ma had to leave school at 15 to get a job to help her parents and the da was told in no uncertain terms that there was no point in doing his GCSEs because no college was ever going to admit him, no matter what results he would get.
On the other hand there's me, I have most things pretty easy. Toughest thing I have to do is get up at 7am for college a coupla days a week. Beats working in a meat factory any day as far as I'm concerned.


Back in the day, there were some bold boys who lived on the same street as my mother's family, so they were sent to borstal, and Jesus, if that didn't sort them out!
This whole cocaine thing is getting on my nerves too. One particular comment along the lines of "cocaine is a scourge on this country" on that Prime Time special really got me thinking. At various other points it has been heroin that has been a "scourge" on the country, and at other times, and even now it could be alcohol. Anyone else think that maybe it's the abusers who are to blame? Just a mad thought I had the other day.

And thank **** the Catholic Church has very little say in anything these days. They still own the schools but at least the Brainwashing has almost gone. Yes there's still a way to go, but at least it's started.

CerebralCortex

DublinWriter wrote: »

Not really. The majority of private-sector tax payers in this country live in Dublin and the county acts as a revenue generator for the rest of the country.

But that's the problem. The National Spatial Strategy is a multi-million Euro commissioned-report joke. Dublin is at breaking point and we need a decentralisation policy for the private sector. However, I think such a beast based on tax-incentives would contravene EU laws.

As an aside, I love the way some of the younger members here revel in their belief that the power and influence of the Catholic Church is on the decline.

Sorry guys, but just because you stopped going to Mass it doesn't automatically follow that the power of that particular organisation is on the wane. When you grow up some and have kids you'll realise that the Catholic Church still run the so-called primary and secondary state-schools.

Ask yourself the following question as a litmus test of your particular hypocrisy. If you had a child and you had a choice between putting him/her in your local Catholic school and the Educate-Together non-secular school in Blanchardstown of which over 95% of students are of Nigerian parentage, which one would you choose?

"the Educate-Together non-secular school" if it has free places.

Kev_ps3

stevoman wrote: »

just a quick question too see does anyone agree with me.

Does anybody else here think that we as a nation completly sold out on our culture for the sake of "modernisation" and a few extra quid?

I think so and to be honest and i solely blame the goverment and next in line after them are the greedy builders.

views????

I agree. I much perfered our old culture to our current MTV culture. Granted, we had less cash, but we had much more in other departments.

stevoman

Tea drinker wrote: »

I have a feeling you WERE proved wrong and didn't retract your untrue statement, meaning you WEREN'T prepared when you told me you would be. Which isn't really ok.

Obviously gandalf is willing to insinuate that i am a racist and walk away from the thread leaving that as his only input to the topic. :rolleyes:

CerebralCortex

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I agree. I much perfered our old culture to our current MTV culture. Granted, we had less cash, but we had much more in other departments.

Examples??

Kev_ps3

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Examples??

-Better community spirit
-People more friendly
-Less rushing
-Simple times
-Less violent crime
-People seemed more happy
-Countryside wasnt destroyed with housing

I could go on...

djpbarry

Tea drinker wrote: »

Did my eyes deceive me or did I see an MTV sweet sixteen from dublin on the box today?

Did my eyes deceive me or did you just admit to watching "My Super Sweet 16"? You have officially lost all credibility.

Pete4779 wrote: »

JUst like a little London.

There is quite a difference between London and Dublin; each has its own good points and bad points.

Pete4779 wrote: »

The vast majority of tax payers live outside of Dublin but don't see things like the Luas, Dart or other deals. Dublin sucks the money out of the rest of the country.

I would agree with this, to a degree. While obviously a large chunk of the population lives in Dublin and the surrounding area and hence, a large chunk of public funding is spent in this area, I would like to see a bit more infrastructural investment in the west coast, in rail services in particular.

Pete4779 wrote: »

it's there, it's strong and you need to leave the pale to see it, as it is evident in the rest (read: most of ) the country.

There's no culture in Dublin? Are you serious?

DublinWriter wrote: »

If you had a child and you had a choice between putting him/her in your local Catholic school and the Educate-Together non-secular school in Blanchardstown of which over 95% of students are of Nigerian parentage, which one would you choose?

Secular school - don't even have to think about it.

I didn't know there was an ET school in Blanchardstown?

amacachi, nice post. I'm a bit older than yourself but I'd be from a similar sort of background and much of what you say is true. My parents are forever moaning about the ills of modern Ireland but, when pushed, there is absolutely no way they would want me enduring what they had to put up with in the 70's and 80's.

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

-Better community spirit
-People more friendly
-Less rushing
-Simple times
-Less violent crime
-People seemed more happy

This is all highly subjective and totally depends on where you live and your own personal circumstances. As for "less violent crime", that should really say "less violent crimes reported", shouldn't it? And what exactly does "simple times" mean? "Ignorant, illiterate, poverty-stricken, god-fearing times" perhaps?

Have a look at the attached link for the report produced by the local school principals on intercultural education in Dublin 15.

Makes for interesting reading, all 192 pages of it.

http://bap.ie/dloads/intercultural_education_report.pdf

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

Makes for interesting reading, all 192 pages of it.

What's your point?

duggie-89

stevoman wrote: »

just a quick question too see does anyone agree with me.

Does anybody else here think that we as a nation completly sold out on our culture for the sake of "modernisation" and a few extra quid?

I think so and to be honest and i solely blame the goverment and next in line after them are the greedy builders.

views????

yes i think it has. all you have to do is to look at the fact that the hills of tara are being bulldozed for a motorway that would be better replaced with a rail system or the likes.

also the fact that the main points of the GAA being culture and fun are being done away with the idea of pay to play which is what is happening.

and when people go on about its moving forward and there are jobs what if all those big american companies were to pull out because its not profitable any more what will happen??? yip you have guessed it to the boats again.

in ireland there is very little home grown industries and this means we rely on other foregin countries and their businesses to see ireland in a positive way.

also communities are being destroyed, with the commuter lifestle and long gone are the days of the good old rip in a neighbours house.

yes there have been some great advancements but were is the soul of the nation north and south.

the main question that needs to be asked is which is more important a soul or a a few quid??

DublinWriter

I think there's one constant here:

We're poor - we moan. We're rich - we moan.

Hobbes

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

-Better community spirit
-People more friendly
-Less rushing
-Simple times
-Less violent crime
-People seemed more happy
-Countryside wasnt destroyed with housing

I could go on...

Ahh yes the good old days I remember them well. Like not going near Ballymun or places like Sheriff street for fear you will be beaten, mugged and left for dead. Sure we didn't have as much violent crime reported but that is because the news didn't report it unless it was about the IRA. Less rushing around because we had such crap roads where a journey that takes 15 minutes now took two hours or more, but not to worry as a bus may not show up at all. But sure we were happy with massive unemployment and wondering how we were going to pay for food for the coming week. I guess the only thing you have is the last point, but we did have turf cutting to keep the country churning with noxious fumes. But sure if you weren't coughing out the black stuff you weren't Irish.

Oh yes those were the days.

Kev_ps3

djpbarry wrote: »

This is all highly subjective and totally depends on where you live and your own personal circumstances. As for "less violent crime", that should really say "less violent crimes reported", shouldn't it? And what exactly does "simple times" mean? "Ignorant, illiterate, poverty-stricken, god-fearing times" perhaps?

"Less violent crimes reported" - you say it as if there was the same amount of violent crime in the good old days but it just wasnt reported. That is absolute nonsence. How can you argue with such a stupid comment!

Kev_ps3

Hobbes wrote: »

Ahh yes the good old days I remember them well. Like not going near Ballymun or places like Sheriff street for fear you will be beaten, mugged and left for dead. Sure we didn't have as much violent crime reported but that is because the news didn't report it unless it was about the IRA. Less rushing around because we had such crap roads where a journey that takes 15 minutes now took two hours or more, but not to worry as a bus may not show up at all. But sure we were happy with massive unemployment and wondering how we were going to pay for food for the coming week. I guess the only thing you have is the last point, but we did have turf cutting to keep the country churning with noxious fumes. But sure if you weren't coughing out the black stuff you weren't Irish.

Oh yes those were the days.

Well you like to focus entirely on the negative side. That can be done with anything in life.