say goodbye to old ireland

mckenna45

The average Irish man today would sell his mother for a 3 series BMW and a middle management job.

kreuzberger

djpbarry wrote: »

I see. So one is not officially "Irish" unless they speak fluent Irish, support the local GAA team, play the fiddle and support Sinn Féin?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

thats patent nonsense . please stop making things up . My point was about civilised and cultured societies regarding cultural appreciation as a mark of progressive civilisation , as opposed to a backward point of view which regards an uncultured society as somehow progressive . That backward point of view has been pre-dominant in Irish society since the mid 19th century . Particularly since the rise of our own native bourgouisie who have traditionally been a very uncultured , shallow and ignorant lot .

Bollocks. My grandmother was a fluent Irish speaker, as were her parents, but that's got nothing to do with my inability to speak the language

believe it or not it isnt all about you

ateam

mckenna45 wrote: »

The average Irish man today would sell his mother for a 3 series BMW and a middle management job.

Just utter rubbish. What are you basing this on?

Oh and what about Irish women?

ateam

kreuzberger wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

thats patent nonsense . please stop making things up . My point was about civilised and cultured societies regarding cultural appreciation as a mark of progressive civilisation , as opposed to a backward point of view which regards an uncultured society as somehow progressive . That backward point of view has been pre-dominant in Irish society since the mid 19th century . Particularly since the rise of our own native bourgouisie who have traditionally been a very uncultured , shallow and ignorant lot

Ignorant? Go back before 1990 and you'll see what ignorance means - divorce was a crime, contraception was illegal along with homosexuality, few women worked outside the home, illiteracy rates were high etc etc.. Come on.

kreuzberger

ateam wrote: »

I'm so lucky to be living in Ireland in the 21st century. We're no longer under the suffocating grip of the Catholic Church which held us back for so long socially and economically. .

Im lucky in that i was never educated by them and brought up with a healthy disdain for any attempt by them , or anyone else to control my outlook on life . And that goes for some pencil neck in a suit too . But we've only swapped one set of unelected agents of social control for a new one . Youre now in the grip of bankers and property speculators . And youll find its an iron grip that made the catholic church look like a pussy cat . Bankers , moneylenders and mortgage men will determine how many kids you have , how many hours a week you work . Make your wife terrified to get either pregnant or sick . Preists wont evict you from your house if you or your wife lose your job . Youll live in worse fear than ever and your kids will be brought up in the shadow of that fear . To the detriment of their mental health and social development . With the bankers in charge youll dare not challenge anything in your society or speak out with a controversial point of view , for fear of losing your home , your job , all the materialistic things you place such importance on . Your muzzled more effectively than the catholic church ever managed . Bankers will ensure you dont have a point of view that challenges anything , out of fear . Thats nothing to be proud of .

For all its faults the catholic church was not responsible for the countrys economic malaise . That was due to the economic effects of partition , centuries of colonialism and the mediocre abilities of our native bourgouisie and political class . I dont see where you got that one from .

kreuzberger

ateam wrote: »

kreuzberger wrote: »

Ignorant? Go back before 1990 and you'll see what ignorance means - divorce was a crime, contraception was illegal along with homosexuality, few women worked outside the home, illiteracy rates were high etc etc.. Come on.

The issues youve pointed to ( largely innaccurately) are those of an uncultured society , the product of a backward and uncultured church which acted as an agent of social control . In the persuit of accuracy however , divorce wasnt a crime , it was simply unnattainable . Nobody was prosecuted for seeking a divorce outside of the jurisdiction . Contraception wasnt exactly illegal either and obtainable from most GPs . While homosexuality was technically illegal people were not persued before the courts over the practice .

What I regard as equally and deeply ignorant though is despite the lessons of the 1960s and 70s we have brand new housing developments which have squashed as many houses together in persuit of profit with no play areas or facilities for families and children . That is not progress , that is simple greed with no concern whatsoever for either infrastructure and ordered planning or the social ill effects of generations of kids being brought up with no play facilities . We have a motorway being built right through the middle of one of europe and the worlds best known heritage sites , the seat of an ancient and evolved civilisation . That is so backward it makes the Taliban look like enlightened social theorists . Its gombeenism at its purest . In the past farmers were castigated as to their ignorance for rmoving a few stones , and now this unbelievable cultural vandalism is advanced as progress .
Women HAVE to work outside the home now and have no choice in the matter if they want a home for their kids in the first place . Women wholl dread getting pregnant , as sure a method of birth control as any . Who the feck is some banker to put the fear of god into any woman over getting pregnant , something totally natural .
In my opinion progress is structuring a society towards the actual needs of the epople who inhabit it , not just a few out to make a quick buck .
All thats happened is an uncultured and backward church has been replaced by an uncultured and backward bourgousie who are evry bit as ignorant and arrogant and who have even more control over peoples day to day lives .

But your illogical points about pre 1990s Ireland seem to have borne out my original point , which was that we have a large elemnt in our society which illogically regards appreciation and persuit of a national culture as somehow an expression of backwardness and poverty . That very same attitude was prevalent , drumed into the Irish people in the mid 19th century by the predominant native catholic political class , including the church . Theres nothing modern about it all . A Farmer tearing up a dolmen or passage grave in the 1930s or a preist denouncing an Irish speaking family in the 1870s was voicing the exact same sentiments . Ignorance and short sightedness is a hallmark of an uncultured society

Húrin

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

First off, you can never say that money is all that matters to people, because if it was there would be no books, no music, no art, no film, no social life, etc. All these things seem to have increased during the boom time (as money was spread around a bit). On the contrary, I firmly believe that we think about money a lot less now that we have some than when we didn't. Back then it was all about trying to get enough money together to stay alive, now we have time to sit back and enjoy our interests.

Correct. To a degree. Cultural activity has indeed increased since the 1990s, and Irish trad music for instance is thriving. Some people only care about money, and I think their paradigm has gained dominance. Specifically, in the media it is said that perpetual economic growth is the only bottom line no matter how low the standards of public services fall.We all benefit from the artists who are less materialistic. Not all Irish people are singing from the same sheet.

But the poster has a fair point that we have become a lot more sedentary and neglected to teach our children the value of exercise. I think cars are largely to blame.

This will have serious consequences in a decade's time as the health services are simultaneously landed with the most obese generation of thirtysomethings ever, and the old age of the baby boom generation.

I also contend that the old days were not quite the "struggle for survival" that is often claimed. Survival means things like food, water and shelter. If you lived in the 1970s and wanted to see a society of people struggling for survival, go to Indonesia, Tanzania etc (you get the idea). To say that Ireland was in a similar situation is melodrama. We were poor, but only by the standards of Europe.

I live in Dublin. I don't see much sitting back and relaxing, rather I see lifestyles increasing in pace. We live in hectic times.

jmayo wrote: »

Have to agree how we are better off with getting out from under the shackles of the Catholic Church and brushing all the "sinful" things (aka anything sexual in nature) under the carpet.
Hell we have even grown up about letting "foreign" sports be played in the temple of Gaeldom, Croker.

We are economically better off because we no longer have to take the boat or plane to find work elsewhere. How long that will last is another debate.
Yes we have and will benefit genetically/culturally from having immigrants dilute the gene pool. God we needed it.

But, yes there is a but, we have become so American.
We really are the 51st state of the union.
Compare us to any other European or Western nation and we have cloned ourselves on America.

Let's all have a SUV, a BMW convertible, Las Vegas lights at Christmas, sweet sixteens, a limo and bouncing castle for the first communion, a helicopter to the races, a holiday home in Spain/Florida or Bulgaria if we are a bit poorer, a trip to New York for the Christmas shopping, a designer handbag and line of coke.

Greed is good and thus who cares if the healthcare system is crap, civil society is falling apart with gang warfare shootouts result.
The motto is now "I am alright, so why should I care if someone else is shot or lying on a trolley dying of misdiagnosed cancer".
Otherwise how can anyone explain how the last government was reinstated afterall it's cockups, neglect and question marks over it's members finances?

A lot of our kids of 12/13 are now binge drinking and some of the girls are giving blow**** to lads of 17 or 18 in the car parks of kids discos.
When they grow up a few years they will be sniffing coke off the cisterns in the jacks.
Celebrity is now the goal in life, give me my fifteen minutes of fame is the demand. Mammy and Daddy will try and buy it as well to compensate for the fact that they no longer see their kids half of the time thanks to their long commute to work and the fact they have to compete with the Jones across the road.

Well said. There are both good and bad aspects of 'modernised' Ireland. I think all except for a few extremists on either side would agree there.

I would pose the question: Given jmayo's succint explanation of the points above, have the downsides been acceptable prices to have paid for the upsides of the celtic tiger?

Húrin

kreuzberger wrote: »

i was sitting at the smoking hut in work this morning . 3 poles were listening to a thin lizzy cd , tapping thier feet to whiskey in the jar . One of thems taking irish classes as well as english . A country thats been overrun and ceased to exist numerous times , lost vast amounts of its population in various wars yet still manages to speak its own language and wouldnt tolerate an invader on one inch of their soil . Im reasonably patriotic but in reality we are much inferior culturally to them . And most other nations . The poles are much more likely to have an appreciation of the importance of a national culture in ones life , because basicaly its good for you and your mental health .

History has show that Poles will tolerate invaders. (though the point of invasion is that the country being invaded doesn't have a choice in the matter) so that bit doesn't make sense. I don't think that there is anything inferior about we Irish. It is normal for populations to get a bit money-fixated when they suddenly have a lot of it; it's nothing uniquely Irish. I expect the Polish people will behave the same way if they ever have a similar boom in their country.

EamonnKeane

mckenna45 wrote: »

The average Irish man today would sell his mother for a 3 series BMW and a middle management job.

100 years ago, Patrick Kavanagh would end that sentence with "... fifty acres." People will always be greedy, be the country rich or poor

ateam

kreuzberger wrote: »

Im lucky in that i was never educated by them and brought up with a healthy disdain for any attempt by them , or anyone else to control my outlook on life . And that goes for some pencil neck in a suit too . But we've only swapped one set of unelected agents of social control for a new one . Youre now in the grip of bankers and property speculators . And youll find its an iron grip that made the catholic church look like a pussy cat . Bankers , moneylenders and mortgage men will determine how many kids you have , how many hours a week you work . Make your wife terrified to get either pregnant or sick . Preists wont evict you from your house if you or your wife lose your job . Youll live in worse fear than ever and your kids will be brought up in the shadow of that fear . To the detriment of their mental health and social development . With the bankers in charge youll dare not challenge anything in your society or speak out with a controversial point of view , for fear of losing your home , your job , all the materialistic things you place such importance on . Your muzzled more effectively than the catholic church ever managed . Bankers will ensure you dont have a point of view that challenges anything , out of fear . Thats nothing to be proud of .

For all its faults the catholic church was not responsible for the countrys economic malaise . That was due to the economic effects of partition , centuries of colonialism and the mediocre abilities of our native bourgouisie and political class . I dont see where you got that one from .

Mm you talk about ignorance - luckily I live in a society where it's socially acceptable to be gay. So don't stereotype everyone and think they will have children.

I'm glad the Catholic Church does not have a grip on the country anymore. We are better for it.

One example to underline my original statement regarding the CC keeping back the country. The 1950 Mother and Child Scheme had to be abandoned because of pressure from the CC.

ateam

Húrin wrote: »

Correct. To a degree. Cultural activity has indeed increased since the 1990s, and Irish trad music for instance is thriving. Some people only care about money, and I think their paradigm has gained dominance. Specifically, in the media it is said that perpetual economic growth is the only bottom line no matter how low the standards of public services fall.We all benefit from the artists who are less materialistic. Not all Irish people are singing from the same sheet.

But the poster has a fair point that we have become a lot more sedentary and neglected to teach our children the value of exercise. I think cars are largely to blame.

This will have serious consequences in a decade's time as the health services are simultaneously landed with the most obese generation of thirtysomethings ever, and the old age of the baby boom generation.

I also contend that the old days were not quite the "struggle for survival" that is often claimed. Survival means things like food, water and shelter. If you lived in the 1970s and wanted to see a society of people struggling for survival, go to Indonesia, Tanzania etc (you get the idea). To say that Ireland was in a similar situation is melodrama. We were poor, but only by the standards of Europe.

I live in Dublin. I don't see much sitting back and relaxing, rather I see lifestyles increasing in pace. We live in hectic times.


Well said. There are both good and bad aspects of 'modernised' Ireland. I think all except for a few extremists on either side would agree there.

I would pose the question: Given jmayo's succint explanation of the points above, have the downsides been acceptable prices to have paid for the upsides of the celtic tiger?

God some people on this forum have a chip on their shoulder and read The Sun too much. Society is crumbling if you were to accept this rubbish.

kreuzberger

ateam wrote: »

Mm you talk about ignorance - luckily I live in a society where it's socially acceptable to be gay. So don't stereotype everyone and think they will have children.

jesus christ , stop clutching at straws . The majority of peoples houses are owned by bankers and moneylenders . The politicians are in their pockets . These people can throw you out of your home . These people largely determine economic policy . Society is run in their interests and not yours or mine .

I'm glad the Catholic Church does not have a grip on the country anymore. We are better for it.

in one respect yes . But what have they been replaced with ? One shower of cnuts have been replaced with another . If something radically different or worthwhile was found as an alternative we could be congratulating ourselves . But we havent either the dignity or imagination . Thats a culture of low expectations thats little different to what passed before . Th catholic church fell out of favour in the last century . It seems we'll still be congratulating ourselves on great it is well into the next while our relatives are lying on hospital trollies in corridors without a shred of human dignity . At least a christian would see something immoral in this obscenity

One example to underline my original statement regarding the CC keeping back the country. The 1950 Mother and Child Scheme had to be abandoned because of pressure from the CC.

you claimed the catholic church was hurting the countrys economic performance . Its opposition to the mother and child scheme , despicable as it was , did not . There was as much opposition from the business community who saw what they believed to be the thin edge of the socialist wedge and regarded sean macbride and Dr Noel Browne as proto communists . Previous attempts to introduce an NHS style health system were met with uproar from bioth the medical professionals and the business community . There were deep rooted problems within the state in the first place . The catholic church was co-opted by the state as a necessary agent of social control to help keep a population , many of whom were originally prepared to wage war against the state , fully in check . It was these mediocre peoples obsession with control and furthering their own interests and that of their cronies which led to the catholic churches dominance over social affairs . It simply mirrored their own small mindedness , uncultured meaness of spirit and conservatism and was a useful political ally .

djpbarry

Tea drinker wrote: »

Irish is optional.

Last time I checked, Irish was a compulsory part of the curriculum.

Tea drinker wrote: »

To brag, or us to be proud of speaking English rather than Irish is pretty stupid!

I don't know too many people who "brag" about speaking English, it's just the reality of our situation.

kreuzberger wrote: »

My point was about civilised and cultured societies regarding cultural appreciation as a mark of progressive civilisation , as opposed to a backward point of view which regards an uncultured society as somehow progressive

You're tarring the entire population with the same brush. There is "culture" everywhere in Ireland; just because it's not always someone playing a fiddle and singing as Gaeilge, doesn't make any less important. Culture constantly changes and evolves in any society.

kreuzberger wrote: »

Women HAVE to work outside the home now and have no choice in the matter if they want a home for their kids in the first place .

I know several mothers who don't work and I'm sure there are plenty more. Besides, I would have thought the fact that there are more women in the workforce is a good thing?

kreuzberger wrote: »

Women wholl dread getting pregnant , as sure a method of birth control as any . Who the feck is some banker to put the fear of god into any woman over getting pregnant , something totally natural .

What the Hell are you talking about?!? Last time I checked, there was a relatively high birth-rate in this country.

kreuzberger

djpbarry wrote: »

I don't know too many people who "brag" about speaking English, it's just the reality of our situation.

I dont know anyone who brags about speaking Irish , and I worked in an exclusively gaelic speaking environment for 2 years . Proud they could speak it yes , but boastful no . Im sure you know plenty who see fit to mock the speaking of your own countrys language . You have a bash at it yourself here

just because it's not always someone playing a fiddle and singing as Gaeilge, doesn't make any less important.

ive never seen anyone play a violin and sing at the same time in my life , in any language . But your reasons for mocking and belittling aspects of your native culture by painting some non existant scenario point to something deep rooted within your psyche . Its difficult to belive you could show an appreciation for anyones elses culture and its importance when you appear so embarassed about your own . One thats very much admired worldwide , by civilised people with an appreciation of culture anyway.

djpbarry

kreuzberger wrote: »

I dont know anyone who brags about speaking Irish

This is pointless - I don't know anyone who "brags" about their ability to speak any language, irrespective of where they are from.

kreuzberger wrote: »

Im sure you know plenty who see fit to mock the speaking of your own countrys language

No, I don't actually.

kreuzberger wrote: »

You have a bash at it yourself here

The only comment I have made with regard to the Irish language is that it should not be a compulsory part of the school curriculum - I never said anything about the language itself or anyone who speaks it.

kreuzberger wrote: »

But your reasons for mocking and belittling aspects of your native culture by painting some non existant scenario point to something deep rooted within your psyche .

Thank you Dr :rolleyes:

If I was mocking anything, it was your assertion that Ireland (and modern Irish people, myself included) are apparently devoid of an appreciation of culture, which is utter nonsense.

Kev_ps3

ateam wrote: »

I'm so lucky to be living in Ireland in the 21st century. We're no longer under the suffocating grip of the Catholic Church which held us back for so long socially and economically. .

Oh it was the Catholic Church all along that oppressed us:rolleyes:. What a joke.

djpbarry

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Oh it was the Catholic Church all along that oppressed us

So the Catholic church liberated "us" then?

purple'n'gold

“For all its faults the catholic church was not responsible for the countrys economic malaise . That was due to the economic effects of partition , centuries of colonialism and the mediocre abilities of our native bourgouisie and political class . I dont see where you got that one from .”

Prior to 1922 all of Ireland was part of the United Kingdom, are you saying that Northern Ireland, which is still part of the united kingdom, (just like Scotland or Wales) is a colony? Does that mean that Scotland and Wales are also colonies?

ateam

Keeping Ireland socially conservative on many issues such as divorce, homosexuality, women's rights, contraception etc, the Catholic Church definitely held back Ireland. I find it a remarkable coincidence that the upturn in the economy in the 1990s went in parallel with a massively impressive downturn in the support for the Catholic Church.

When one is objective, you can see that the Catholic Church was an overbearing suffocating presence in Irish society - one which thankfully we're rid of. Whole lives were dominated by what the Church said. I'm so fortunate to live in a Catholic free Ireland.

ateam

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Oh it was the Catholic Church all along that oppressed us:rolleyes:. What a joke.

What do you mean what a joke? The grip the CC had on Ireland was incalculable. Reasoning behind that grip is complex, but one can definitely say that there was a suffocating presence as a result of the CC. Decisions in family life, political life, even in business were taken with the Church's point of view in mind. We've now moved away from that suffocation and darkness and Ireland is a far better and happier place to live in.

zippy 99

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Oh it was the Catholic Church all along that oppressed us:rolleyes:. What a joke.

Most naive comment i've read in a while. Good read some history.

Kev_ps3

The English oppressed us, not the Church. I dont see the last generation of Irish people complaining about the Church, its the new spoilt MTV generation who dont like to get told what to do by anyone.

Kev_ps3

zippy 99 wrote: »

Most naive comment i've read in a while. Good read some history.

Thats funny, because I would say the same about yours.

djpbarry

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

The English oppressed us, not the Church.

I'm not sure what you mean by "us" (although I could make a good guess), but I don't ever remember being oppressed by the English. As far as I'm aware, neither were my parents. I am, however, old enough to remember the influence of the church in Irish life, even as late as the 1980's.

Kev_ps3

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by "us" (although I could make a good guess), but I don't ever remember being oppressed by the English. As far as I'm aware, neither were my parents. I am, however, old enough to remember the influence of the church in Irish life, even as late as the 1980's.

By us, I mean the native catholic celtic people who have lived here for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
And any "influence" the church had was given freely to them by the goverments and the people. I would much rather have that "influence" today than the "influence" of the gutter press and media.

CerebralCortex

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

By us, I mean the native catholic celtic people who have lived here for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
And any "influence" the church had was given freely to them by the goverments and the people. I would much rather have that "influence" today than the "influence" of the gutter press and media.

Kev you are unbelievable, you sound like Joseph Gobells. "native catholic celtic people who have lived here for hundreds, if not thousands of years" Are you for real? roflmao

Celtic Christianity as far as I'm aware was nothing like the CC. Is the fact that my family name has only been here 900 hundred year make me less Irish? I will agree with on the point that the Irish masses will swallow an awful amount of rubbish thank the universe its not the Catholic Church's rubbish.

whoot! 900th post

jmayo

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

By us, I mean the native catholic celtic people who have lived here for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
And any "influence" the church had was given freely to them by the goverments and the people. I would much rather have that "influence" today than the "influence" of the gutter press and media.

Actually Celts were blow ins as well and they weren't Catholic/Christian until a bloody Welshman arrived so by that theory the RC should be out.

Ah yes lets have the laundries back and dump all the unmarried mothers in them.
Then lets reopen the industrial schools and invite a bunch of paedophiles and sadistic bast**** to run them. Of course we will then cover up their misdemeanours.
Lets invite in some good European Catholics who happened to work for the SS or Gestapo while refusing survivors or would be victims of the holocaust.

Then let us ban any books that upset the local bishop.
Of course we will let the local priest tell us what form of contraception to use, after all he may practice what he preaches with his housekeeper.

Ah jeeze those were the days.

As I stated previously in this thread I disklike a lot of what we have become i.e American clones, but lets not kid oursevles everything was rosey in the garden under McQuade and his ilk.
The only reason it appeared rosey was anything uncomfortable and not condoned by the RC (and it's puppet governments) was hidden out of sight.

djpbarry

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

By us, I mean the native catholic celtic people who have lived here for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

:rolleyes:

So how far back can you trace your roots?

EamonnKeane

back to normandy with yiz, ye strongbowite bastids

jdivision

stevoman wrote: »

just a quick question too see does anyone agree with me.

Does anybody else here think that we as a nation completly sold out on our culture for the sake of "modernisation" and a few extra quid?

I think so and to be honest and i solely blame the goverment and next in line after them are the greedy builders.

views????

Nope we haven't sold out our culture and much of what has happened in the pursuit of "modernisation" has been of a major benefit. You blame the government, who exactly elected them? Given the government and some of the greedy builders are amongst the leading supporters of arts and culture in this country I completely fail to see your point.