say goodbye to old ireland

jdivision

kreuzberger wrote: »

For all its faults the catholic church was not responsible for the countrys economic malaise . That was due to the economic effects of partition , centuries of colonialism and the mediocre abilities of our native bourgouisie and political class . I dont see where you got that one from .

Actually in the 20th Century it was almost entirely due to De Valera's mismanagement of the economy which turned Dublin from an economic powerhouse into a backwater, largely through the introduction of high tariffs in an attempt at self sufficiency. As a result the big irish companies of the time such as Guinness became British.

ateam

jdivision wrote: »

Actually in the 20th Century it was almost entirely due to De Valera's mismanagement of the economy which turned Dublin from an economic powerhouse into a backwater, largely through the introduction of high tariffs in an attempt at self sufficiency. As a result the big irish companies of the time such as Guinness became British.

And Dev was a devote Catholic and considered Catholic teachings in any of decisions (1937 Constitution was written with a Catholic bishop). There are many complex reasons behind Ireland's economic stagnation for much of the 20th century, but in my opinion, the power and presence of the Catholic Church was a contributory factor.

Again, it's ironic that the economic success of the 1990s was matched with a dramatic downturn in the power of the Catholic Church.

moe_sizlak

ateam wrote: »

Keeping Ireland socially conservative on many issues such as divorce, homosexuality, women's rights, contraception etc, the Catholic Church definitely held back Ireland. I find it a remarkable coincidence that the upturn in the economy in the 1990s went in parallel with a massively impressive downturn in the support for the Catholic Church.

When one is objective, you can see that the Catholic Church was an overbearing suffocating presence in Irish society - one which thankfully we're rid of. Whole lives were dominated by what the Church said. I'm so fortunate to live in a Catholic free Ireland.

were you to replace the word catholic with muslim in that last sentence , you would be banned from boards for life

anti catholicism is the only remaining respectable prejudice in liberal western society
im not religous myself but since im only 30 , i have never ever suffered in any way at the hands of the catholic church, they never once tried to influence my life or my parents life when i was a kid

djpbarry

moe_sizlak wrote: »

im not religous myself but since im only 30 , i have never ever suffered in any way at the hands of the catholic church, they never once tried to influence my life or my parents life when i was a kid

That's pretty unlikely. To take just one example, contraception was illegal in Ireland until 1973, and from 1973-79, contraception was only available from family-planning clinics. Are you saying this had nothing to do with Catholicism?

ateam

moe_sizlak wrote: »

were you to replace the word catholic with muslim in that last sentence , you would be banned from boards for life

anti catholicism is the only remaining respectable prejudice in liberal western society
im not religous myself but since im only 30 , i have never ever suffered in any way at the hands of the catholic church, they never once tried to influence my life or my parents life when i was a kid

Catholic free Ireland did not imply anything malicious. I clearly identified my point that we're free of the grip that the Catholic Church once had on us. I realise I may be bashing the Catholic Church, but that's my opinion, it held this country back for too long and it's time people began to realise that.

When a country is ruled with a strict religious presence, the economy always suffers - that included Ireland and to a certain many Middle Eastern and Asian countries are held back by religion.

purple'n'gold

ateam wrote: »

Catholic free Ireland did not imply anything malicious. I clearly identified my point that we're free of the grip that the Catholic Church once had on us. I realise I may be bashing the Catholic Church, but that's my opinion, it held this country back for too long and it's time people began to realise that.

When a country is ruled with a strict religious presence, the economy always suffers - that included Ireland and to a certain many Middle Eastern and Asian countries are held back by religion.

You cannot compare the interference of the Catholic Church in the running of this country with Islamic governments. At the height of the catholic churches power here, if someone wanted to change their religion on marriage to church of Ireland (and it did happen by the way) the worst he/she would have to suffer would be some social exclusion by people who they probably cared little about anyway. If a Muslim in an Islamic country converts to Christianity, he/she is killed.

ateam

purplengold wrote: »

You cannot compare the interference of the Catholic Church in the running of this country with Islamic governments. At the height of the catholic churches power here, if someone wanted to change their religion on marriage to church of Ireland (and it did happen by the way) the worst he/she would have to suffer would be some social exclusion by people who they probably cared little about anyway. If a Muslim in an Islamic country converts to Christianity, he/she is killed.

The power and suffocation is the same.

purple'n'gold

ateam wrote: »

The power and suffocation is the same.

IMO there is an awful difference in someone not talking to you and someone killing you.

moe_sizlak

djpbarry wrote: »

That's pretty unlikely. To take just one example, contraception was illegal in Ireland until 1973, and from 1973-79, contraception was only available from family-planning clinics. Are you saying this had nothing to do with Catholicism?

im saying in no way were any of my brothers or sisiters in any way opressed by the catholic church while i was growing up and i was born in 1977 with my youngest sibling born in 1987

jmayo

moe_sizlak wrote: »

im saying in no way were any of my brothers or sisiters in any way opressed by the catholic church while i was growing up and i was born in 1977 with my youngest sibling born in 1987

If you were born in 1977 then you do not remember what a big deal the Pope's visit was in this country.
Hell half the country went to see him, because that was how important the Catholic Chruch was in Ireland.

What now really stands out for me from that visit was how two of the most high profile clergymen were up on the altar, the same two who quiet often appeared on TV shows lecturing us on our sex and family lives.
If we only had known at the time both of them would later disown their own sons :rolleyes:

You are too young to remember the 1980s, the abortion and divorce referendums and how Garrett Fitzgerald along with some more enlightened individuals tried to drag this country into the 20th century, despite the Church doing it's best to influence the decisions.

Even by the 1980s the church had lost some of it's power form the days of McQuade (look up how government ministers used to go visit the Archbishoips palace to get his ok on government decisions), and the days when you could not go to a dance during lent (ask your parents or phone Louis Walsh or Ronan Collins), but it still held sway with a lot of people.

As I said earlier the Bishop Casey affair was a landmark point in Irish history and it opened the gates.

Being in Galway at the time, it was earth shattering in terms of the affect it had on some of the older people who had staunchly stood by the church.
Their faith was severely dented and they probably never looked on churchmen in the same way.
After that point more and more revelations about paedophiles (Smith) being protected by the church and the carry on of Cleary etc began to leak out.
The Smith affair was to bring a government down and affectively scupper Albert Reynolds.

djpbarry

purplengold wrote: »

If a Muslim in an Islamic country converts to Christianity, he/she is killed.

:rolleyes:

moe_sizlak wrote: »

im saying in no way were any of my brothers or sisiters in any way opressed by the catholic church while i was growing up and i was born in 1977 with my youngest sibling born in 1987

You included your parents in that statement the first time.

Anyway, the influence of the church is still evident in Irish society today. For example, the 1983 Amendment to the constitution which introduced the constitutional prohibition of abortion was heavily endorsed by the Catholic Church. Also, the June, 1996, removal of the constitutional prohibition of divorce, but retaining certain restrictions on its occurrence. These are forms of oppression.

I also had the misfortune of spending a few months in a Christian brothers' school when I was young, which quite frankly traumatised me at the time. I would regard certain aspects of teaching in that school as forms of oppression. For example, I distinctly remember our class (of 8-year olds) being told, in no uncertain terms, that sex was evil.

bob2000

A couple of months listening to Christian Brothers hardly compares to the level of oppression in Islamic states now does it ?

Honour Killings vs being told sex is evil

hmmmmm

djpbarry

bob2000 wrote: »

A couple of months listening to Christian Brothers hardly compares to the level of oppression in Islamic states now does it ?

But I wasn't making a comparison between the two. And can we stop with the generalising of "Islamic states"?

wes

bob2000 wrote: »

A couple of months listening to Christian Brothers hardly compares to the level of oppression in Islamic states now does it ?

Honour Killings vs being told sex is evil

hmmmmm

What do "Islamic states" have to do with anything in this instance? Btw, just because some else does something worse isn't really any sort of excuse and is in fact trying to dodge an issue.

Also, when have "Islamic states" engaged in "honour" killings? I know individuals have done so, but I don't remember state sanctioned "honour" killings? I have heard them giving lenient sentences for "honour" killings (terrible in and of itself, but very different to what your saying.), but I don't remember any Islamic states sanctioning or carrying out such viscous crimes. Also, I for the life of me can't remember "Islamic states" engaging in any "honour" killing in Ireland, seeing as this topic is about "saying goodbye to old Ireland", so I a making the assumption that there must be some relation to the main topic at hand.

Seems like pointless hyperbole at best. If your going to criticize "Islamic states", perhaps criticize something they have done. Such as giving lenient sentences to those who commit these "honour" killings and for not providing Women better protection against such crimes and better rights.

bob2000

BBC Today

The upper house of the Afghan parliament has supported a death sentence issued against a journalist for blasphemy in northern Afghanistan.

Now thats what I call church oppression.

I just feel that a lot of Irish people want to be perceived as victims.

wes

bob2000 wrote: »

BBC Today

The upper house of the Afghan parliament has supported a death sentence issued against a journalist for blasphemy in northern Afghanistan.

Now thats what I call church oppression.

I just feel that a lot of Irish people want to be perceived as victims.

What does Afghanistan have to do with Ireland? So there worse over there, so what?

Afghanistan laws (horrible as they are) have nothing to do with Ireland. Trying to dodge the issue by presenting someone worse, isn't any kind of defense at all. It has nothing to with Ireland at all. Shouldn't you address the specific point raised, as opposed to trying to dodge having to do so?

bob2000

Bottom Line Wes

I think the RC church are not currently oppressing people in this country. Maybe this went on in the past - I don't believe they do any more.

People bleating on about some priest telling them sex was evil when they were 8 - don't make me laugh.

I went to RC shools in Dublin throughout the 1980's - don't remember any oppression/brainwashing/whatever

Without the RC church involved in teaching, what exactly will we have - those multidenominational farces they have in the UK which have led to parents routinely faking catholic/protestant religous status to get their kid into a decent school ?

wes

bob2000 wrote: »

Bottom Line Wes

I think the RC church are not currently oppressing people in this country. Maybe this went on in the past - I don't believe they do any more.

People bleating on about some priest telling them sex was evil when they were 8 - don't make me laugh.

I went to RC shools in Dublin throughout the 1980's - don't remember any oppression/brainwashing/whatever

Without the RC church involved in teaching, what exactly will we have - those multidenominational farces they have in the UK which have led to parents routinely faking catholic/protestant religous status to get their kid into a decent school ?

I actually have no issues with the Catholic church btw, I just found it puzzling that you kept banging on about "Islamic states" and Afghanistan which have nothing to do with the Catholic church and its influence, for better or worse in Ireland. Would it not been easier to just state your opinion in the first place, instead of talking about unrelated issues?

Also, someones personal experiences can differ from yours btw. So djpbarry had a negative experience of a Catholic school, I don't see how your experience, invalidates his or vice versa.

I also went to a Catholic school btw and had no issues there. The priests were very nice and the school had a high standard of education and no one tried to indoctrinate me, but just because it didn't happen to me, doesn't invalidate someone else saying they felt that this was attempted with them. Having said that a single instance doesn't really prove anything either way.

The point a lot of people are trying to make (imho) is that the Catholic church at one point had quite a bit of control over the politics in this country and they taught this was negative.

So would you prefer if the Catholic church had more influences in the running of that state?

bartholomewbinn

I have a feeling that where schools are concerned, a lot of the so called atheists and agnostics who blather on about non denominational schools would give their right arms to be able to have their sons educated in any one of our (rugby playing) private religious secondary schools.

djpbarry

bob2000 wrote: »

I think the RC church are not currently oppressing people in this country. Maybe this went on in the past - I don't believe they do any more.

That's sort of the point - this all started with someone disagreeing with this post.

bob2000 wrote: »

People bleating on about some priest telling them sex was evil when they were 8 - don't make me laugh.

I'm not sure why that's funny?

bob2000 wrote: »

I went to RC shools in Dublin throughout the 1980's - don't remember any oppression/brainwashing/whatever

You obviously were not paying much attention. Either that or you were rather fortunate.

bob2000 wrote: »

Without the RC church involved in teaching, what exactly will we have - those multidenominational farces they have in the UK which have led to parents routinely faking catholic/protestant religous status to get their kid into a decent school ?

There you go comparing our situation with that in another country - totally irrelevant. But seeing as you brought it up, there are plenty of excellent schools in the UK with absolutely no religious ethos of any kind.

djpbarry

bartholomewbinn wrote: »

I have a feeling that where schools are concerned, a lot of the so called atheists and agnostics who blather on about non denominational schools would give their right arms to be able to have their sons educated in any one of our (rugby playing) private religious secondary schools.

Not really, no. I would be quite happy to have my child educated in a state school, as long as there is no religious agenda, which is pretty difficult at present, if not impossible. In fact, it's one of the main reasons why I would be very reluctant to raise a child in this country.

bartholomewbinn

djpbarry wrote: »

Not really, no. I would be quite happy to have my child educated in a state school, as long as there is no religious agenda, which is pretty difficult at present, if not impossible. In fact, it's one of the main reasons why I would be very reluctant to raise a child in this country.

Ok, but if you want your child to have what is regarded in this country as the best education and networking opportunities, you send your son to one of the schools that I have mentioned. (That is if you can get him in which would be difficult). Note that I said what is regarded in this country.

djpbarry

bartholomewbinn wrote: »

Ok, but if you want your child to have what is regarded in this country as the best education and networking opportunities, you send your son to one of the schools that I have mentioned.

That depends on the parents. In terms of quality of education, I don't think it makes a huge amount of difference. I attended a relatively run-of-the-mill multi-denominational secondary school in west Dublin. I don't think it would have made a huge amount of difference to my education had I attended say, The Institute of Education instead. I think the influence of the child's parents is a far bigger factor in determining what a child gets out of their education, regardless of the school they attend. In fact, I know of a number of people who left my school to attend the Institute - the only ones who did well in their Leaving Cert.’s are the one's who were performing well in my school already.

Riddle101

lol at how some people think Ireland has sold itself out because it's evolving. TBH Ireland has been seeling itself out even before it began to grow, the amount of immigration that was going on. Ireland as a whole was selling itself out in 70's downwards as well. It's only now we've caught up with the times and are happy to be one of those countries who can happily live in well financed houses and have more the one TV and Satilite.

However i do wish Ireland would stop kissing and licking other countries ass trying to get recognition. I heard there's a plan to twin Dublin and Beijing again even though that was voted against before.

djpbarry

Riddle101 wrote: »

TBH Ireland has been seeling itself out even before it began to grow, the amount of immigration that was going on.

What exactly do you mean?

moe_sizlak

djpbarry wrote: »

:rolleyes:
You included your parents in that statement the first time.

Anyway, the influence of the church is still evident in Irish society today. For example, the 1983 Amendment to the constitution which introduced the constitutional prohibition of abortion was heavily endorsed by the Catholic Church. Also, the June, 1996, removal of the constitutional prohibition of divorce, but retaining certain restrictions on its occurrence. These are forms of oppression.

I also had the misfortune of spending a few months in a Christian brothers' school when I was young, which quite frankly traumatised me at the time. I would regard certain aspects of teaching in that school as forms of oppression. For example, I distinctly remember our class (of 8-year olds) being told, in no uncertain terms, that sex was evil.

why do many associate being pro choice on abortion with being enlightend

djpbarry

moe_sizlak wrote: »

why do many associate being pro choice on abortion with being enlightend

You're missing the point. My own stance on the subject is irrelevant. The point is the position of the Irish state with regard to abortion was (and still is) heavily influenced by the Catholic Church.

kreuzberger

its stance is also pretty much influenced by the electorate too . north of the border the position on abortion is very similar .

moe_sizlak

most people in the southern states in the usa are opposed to abortion and the vast majority of them are not catholic , in fact there quite suspicious of the catholic church

personally i think abortion should be available in certain circumstances of course but i do find it amusing that being pro choice is such a sacred liberal cow

djpbarry

kreuzberger wrote: »

its stance is also pretty much influenced by the electorate too.

I think not.

moe_sizlak wrote: »

most people in the southern states in the usa are opposed to abortion and the vast majority of them are not catholic

Abortion is legal in the US.

Besides, your argument doesn't make any sense. The 8th Amendment to our constitution was supported by the Catholic Church, while, for example, most Protestant church leaders opposed it. All of which is beside the point - I am opposed to ANY church's involvement in government.