run run run

SUNGOD

the programme i mentioned above is from the dublin city marathon website, schedule for 2:30 to 3:00 . my goal like racing flat is just to break three hours , even by one second and i would be thrilled.
it seems a good schedule the main difference that i can see to the hal higdon programme i was going to follow is the amount of 20miles+ runs that are included.5 twenty mile runs and 2 tweenty two mile runs in the dublin programme compared to just 3 twenty mile runs in the advanced hal higdon programme. the weekly mile total seems to be more in the dublin one also but i suppose this is also catering for a 2:30 marathon runner.
i also got a 15 week programme from the longford marathon website also for runners who hope to cover the distance between 2:30 and 3:00 this one seems to be a step up again as it doesnt show one rest day in the entire 15 weeks (which cant be good)and at its peak a 91 mile week with 4 weeks over 80 miles and a 15 week average of 72 miles a week. which is very severe and way out of my league. so i plan on following the dublin programme from monday on and see how i get on changing it slightly along the way to suit me.

Racing Flat

SUNGOD wrote: »

the programme i mentioned above is from the dublin city marathon website, schedule for 2:30 to 3:00 . my goal like racing flat is just to break three hours , even by one second and i would be thrilled.
it seems a good schedule the main difference that i can see to the hal higdon programme i was going to follow is the amount of 20miles+ runs that are included.5 twenty mile runs and 2 tweenty two mile runs in the dublin programme compared to just 3 twenty mile runs in the advanced hal higdon programme. the weekly mile total seems to be more in the dublin one also but i suppose this is also catering for a 2:30 marathon runner.
i also got a 15 week programme from the longford marathon website also for runners who hope to cover the distance between 2:30 and 3:00 this one seems to be a step up again as it doesnt show one rest day in the entire 15 weeks (which cant be good)and at its peak a 91 mile week with 4 weeks over 80 miles and a 15 week average of 72 miles a week. which is very severe and way out of my league. so i plan on following the dublin programme from monday on and see how i get on changing it slightly along the way to suit me.

The Dublin programme, while maybe being a little monotonous, it will make you as strong as a horse (if it doesn't break you!). I stuck religiously to this in my first marathon and felt it was a stroll in the park for 23miles or slow and didn't slow too much after that. So all the miles and long runs will stand to you, but your body will have to be ready for it. There's not much speed work in it, which is okay for a marathon runner, but as I do shorter distances aswell I keep a bit more speedwork in my programmes now. I'm not aware of the other programme but 72 miles a week is a fair bit and might take a while to get used to. I'm doing about 60miles a week now, but when working full time, can only get away with this by doing only about half of that every 4th week. Plus this is on a base of about 4 years of 40-50miles a week.

How many miles a week did you average for your other marathons? If it's much lower than the brendan o'shea programme from the irish runner (the one I did - I think this is the dublin city marathon website one also), then build up cautiously enough.

SUNGOD

hi RF yeah it is the brendan o shea programme it works out as about 62 miles a week on average over the 21 weeks with the peak week being 72 miles which i feel i could manage. for connemara i was averaging about 50 miles a week and cork was roughly the same maybe less as i had less prep time before the taper . if i start on monday the first 4 weeks are 54,54,58,58 so i reckon its a programme that will suit me . obviously i will listen to my body and if i feel i need to reduce every 3/4 week i will.
glad to hear this programme benefited you RF as thats exactly what i wanted to hear , i just felt i needed more then the three 20 mile runs in the higdon prgramme (even advanced only has 3) and was just looking for a programme that thought likewise .

Racing Flat

everyone's different, but I know I need lots of the long runs as it takes my body a long time to get used to them. I'd have no confidence starting a marathon having done only 3 20 mile runs, but then again I know someone who ran 2.45 off 2 16 mile runs...

SUNGOD

have'nt trained all weekend as i have decided to start that brendan o shea marathon programme tommorrow, its in this months irish runner as well , page 27. and if anyone wants to see sungod im on page 61, there is a article about the connemara marathon and i happen to be in the background of the photo they used(im second from right wearing a red top). i hope the paparazzi dont start following me on my long runs now:D.
ive just been relaxing over the weekend and eating anything i wanted .its kind of a last supper as i do intend giving dublin my full attention including diet ,which is something i could have paid more attention too in previous marathons . so over the weekend if said a tearful goodbye to white bread and yorkies, choclate in general is a weakness of mine .
anyway thats it, ive made my bed .now time to lie in it

birdie08

hi sungod, must have a look at ur pic.. chocolate my weakness too plus few other things which i wont reveal.. but just remember when u deprive urself of things u crave them more so therefor dont deprive keep as a treat..easier said than done..im looking at the hal hig progr that u recommended, goin to fiddle around wit it and give it a go, starting tomor!! if i get through d half marathon il be so proud of myself..no reason why i cant succeed

SUNGOD

exactley , the most important ingredient is belief

SUNGOD

6 mile run tonight

Woddle

Hey sungod, I two have given up the yorkies aswell as lemons jellies, so I feel your pain.
I'm hoping you could do me a favour, I would love to know the pace of your training runs, I'm interested to see how a potential sub 3 hour marathoner trains, as maybe in a year or two I hope to be close to your level, this year sub 4 is my target, cheers

eclectichoney

best of luck with the training programme sungod, will be looking forward to seeing how you get on! Empathy on the chcolate front, I discovered dark chocolate club milks at the weekend unfortunately

birdie08

guys,
do u think cause were so active that our body just craves for d chocolate?? me, first thing in d morning i crave for it and not satisfied unless i have it.. wen i deprive myself i feel lethargic and edgy, maybe its all in my head??

SUNGOD

hi eclectihoney , thanks hopefully everything will go according to plan. you must be delighted to be back running again. you shouldnt have told me about
dark choclate club milks id love one now with a pint of tea

SUNGOD

hi woddle i never time my training runs or really try to run them at a certain pace i just run them at a pace i feel comforterble, my long runs i run slower and usually only watch my min/miles when im racing 5miles or under im under 6 min miles from 6 to 13miles im 6:07 to 6:30 and marathon was 7:07 i think. i bought a garmin 405 on thursday but ive had 2 attempts but cant get it going properly ,im not very technological minded i get very frustrated very easy and just leave it there. i got it specificilly to help me run training runs at my ideal marathon race pace which is 6:50 per mile, i will get the hang of it in time .
woddle i will time a few of my normal runs just for fun over the next few days to see what pace i run them and post my times here,

SUNGOD

birdie08 i think your stone cracked:D
maybe try find a happy medium between breakfast and choclate and just get some co co pops.;)
i do know what you mean, when i increase my mileage my body will be craving for food and if im not feeding it properly or let myself get run down i tend to crave quick fixs like choclate/cakes but this is because of my poor planning letting my energy levels get so low that i need a instint burst of food.

birdie08

sungod,
thank u for ur reply as id be waiting a long time for others:D cracked..well i admit that.. on a serious note ur right, im prob lacking essential foods and therefor it triggers my cravings. iv not got big appetite, so i therfor tend to eat little and often. Im kinda like u, need to get food thingy in order.. best of luck.. i know ur thinking of dat yorkie and wee cuppa..or d club milks ah heaven.. i love it..good luck:)

ike

SUNGOD wrote: »

when i increase my mileage my body will be craving for food and if im not feeding it properly or let myself get run down i tend to crave quick fixs like choclate/cakes but this is because of my poor planning letting my energy levels get so low that i need a instint burst of food.

Interesting point SUNGOD - I did a relatively hard week last week and found myself feeling very lethargic at the end of it, I stuck to my regular eating plan when I probably needed an extra meal somewhere during the day..

sobriquet

SUNGOD wrote: »

i do know what you mean, when i increase my mileage my body will be craving for food and if im not feeding it properly or let myself get run down i tend to crave quick fixs like choclate/cakes but this is because of my poor planning letting my energy levels get so low that i need a instint burst of food.

Like Ike, that's an interesting point for me too. Since starting my programme and getting in over the 20 miles a week mark, I've been inclined to eat a lot more. I was worried I was horsing too much food in. Nevertheless, my weight day to day is holding steady, maybe trending down slightly.

I'm the same with the chocolate too, terrible sweet tooth. I bought a bar of 85%-cocoa chocolate on the idea that it would be richer and I'd eat less of it. What happened? It was gone that evening! Trying cold turkey these days.

SUNGOD

the more miles you do ,the more energy you use ,the more fuel you need. you can still lose weight as long as your not getting more fuel in than energy used.
you just have to have your body supplied with good sources of energy or you simply wont be able to do big mileage especially your long runs.
tonight i did 6 miles in 41 minutes it usually wouldnt be as quick as this but there was 6 of us out together and every so often some one would push on for the crack and everyone would reel him in, and the last mile and a half was a free for all with everyone trying to finish first.but i really enjoyed the competetive aspect of it and good to finish fast and strong even when training every now and again.
my runs over the rest of week will give a truer reflection of my training running pace

Racing Flat

SUNGOD wrote: »

i do know what you mean, when i increase my mileage my body will be craving for food and if im not feeding it properly or let myself get run down i tend to crave quick fixs like choclate/cakes but this is because of my poor planning letting my energy levels get so low that i need a instint burst of food.

Funny enough, when I am at my most intense training, I seem to eat better. I think my body craves the good energy foods, so I tend to crave porridge, brown rice, brown pasta etc. and have no appetite for chips or chocolate, whereas normally I want and eat loads of chips and chocolate... Loss of appetite is one sign of overtraining, so it's something to look out for.

Racing Flat

Woddle wrote: »

Hey sungod, I two have given up the yorkies aswell as lemons jellies, so I feel your pain.
I'm hoping you could do me a favour, I would love to know the pace of your training runs, I'm interested to see how a potential sub 3 hour marathoner trains, as maybe in a year or two I hope to be close to your level, this year sub 4 is my target, cheers

Woddle, a 4 hour marathon runner should be training according to the same principles as a 3 hour marathon as a 2 hour marathoner as far as I'm concerned. The differences will be in the mileage, the faster you are, the more you probably do and the paces, the faster you are, the faster your training paces.

Aiming for a 3 hour September marathon, my current training paces are roughly:
Easy run - 7.30-8.00min mile (about 70mins twice a week)
Lactate threshold run - 6.10-6.30min mile (2 sessions a week of 2 x 20min with a 5 min recovery)
Long run - 7.50min mile (up to 17mile now, adding about a mile a week to 20, then will swap between 20 and 22, to total 2 20mile runs and 3 22 mile runs).
And marathon pace runs which I will introduce in a few weeks in the place of one of my lactate threshold (tempo) sessions will be 6.50min mile, building up to 90mins at this pace hopefully.
Intervals - doing 4 x 1mile at 5.40-5.50 pace, this will speed up a little, or could do 6-8 x 800m at around 5.30-5.40 pace.

There are ranges of paces and these will (hopefully) all tend to speed up because it is done according to heart rate zones:
Easy and long runs 145-150bpm
Intervals - 180-185bpm
Tempo - 170-175bpm
Based on an incremental fitness test, mainly around blood lactate levels at different speeds, so only applicable to me, but for what it's worth, based on a max heart rate of around 189-193bpm.

Sorry for the hi-jack SG.

SUNGOD

thats grand RF i find the theroy and science behind training patterns/pace very interesting and its something im trying to get to know more about as at the minute im still not that knowledgeable on the subject, it great to listen to someone who has more expierence and knowledge then yourself ,its really the only way to learn.

Racing Flat

SUNGOD wrote: »

thats grand RF i find the theroy and science behind training patterns/pace very interesting and its something im trying to get to know more about as at the minute im still not that knowledgeable on the subject, it great to listen to someone who has more expierence and knowledge then yourself ,its really the only way to learn.

www.mcmillanrunning.com explains it fairly well, and the competitive runners handbook is good. Jack Daniels book is a bit more advanced and if you really want to swot up on it Peter Coe's book and Tim Noakes 'The lore of Running' are fairly complicated but interesting. There's probably no definitive answer though which probably adds to the differing opinions. When you find a system that's right for you (ie pb's and consistent improvement) stick with it.

SUNGOD

yesterday 6 miles in 45 min
today 6 miles in 42 min
was due to get a 8/10 mile run in during the week but various things ment i didnt, but not to worry no harm in easing myself in to it . rest tommorrow then sat and sun will be 10 and 14 mile runs all going according to plan.
i also have a booking with my gym instructor on saturday to bring me around the weights and make out a programme for me, nothing too extreme just something for the upper body

SUNGOD

went through the weights with gym instructor just showing me what was what , she made a programme for me which i will probably start in the morning and post it then.
went for a 10 mile run after that in 1:18 weather was atrocious from start to finish absolutely lashed rain for the duration, but you can only get so wet so may as well keep going.
it does make a difference that i always run from my leisure centre so it was straight in to a jacuzzi afterwards .happy days.
hopefully the weather is better tommorrow

SUNGOD

started the weights programme this morning but forgot to bring card home so i cant post exactley what i did as i cant remmber names of machines or how much weight, i will prob post it on tuesday.
so 10 min warm up on bike then weights and stretch .
went out for my first longish run then 14 miles in 1:40

SUNGOD

monday 23rd went for a slow recovery run on the beach i reckon about 5 miles .nice to get off road.
today i went for a 6 mile run fairly quick i didnt time it but it felt resonably fast, before i ran i went through the weights programme that the instructor did for me . she called it pryamid training im posting this from memory so if i call something the wrong name etc apologies,im assumeing the weights are kg's ?
chest press 15 reps 20 kg,10 reps 25 kg, 5 reps 30 kg
lat pull down? 15 x 20 , 10 x 25 , 5 x 30
shoulder press 15 x10 , 10 x 15 , 5 x 20
free weights
shoulder/back thing on incline bench?? 15 x 6, 10 x 8, 5 x 10
bicep curls 30 x 6, 10 x 8, 5 x 10
bridge (for stomach) 2 x hold for 30 seconds
side bridge 2 x 30 sec's each side
hope that made sense
the weights are not too difficult but she just said to concentrate on doing them correct as im a weights novice and she will reveiw the programme in a few weeks

celestial

SUNGOD wrote: »

monday 23rd went for a slow recovery run on the beach i reckon about 5 miles .nice to get off road.
today i went for a 6 mile run fairly quick i didnt time it but it felt resonably fast, before i ran i went through the weights programme that the instructor did for me . she called it pryamid training im posting this from memory so if i call something the wrong name etc apologies,im assumeing the weights are kg's ?
chest press 15 reps 20 kg,10 reps 25 kg, 5 reps 30 kg
lat pull down? 15 x 20 , 10 x 25 , 5 x 30
shoulder press 15 x10 , 10 x 15 , 5 x 20
free weights
shoulder/back thing on incline bench?? 15 x 6, 10 x 8, 5 x 10
bicep curls 30 x 6, 10 x 8, 5 x 10
bridge (for stomach) 2 x hold for 30 seconds
side bridge 2 x 30 sec's each side
hope that made sense
the weights are not too difficult but she just said to concentrate on doing them correct as im a weights novice and she will reveiw the programme in a few weeks

Hey SUNGOD, the weights programme she did up is a load of bollix - which is to be expected. There is no leg work which is the biggest glaring hole in the plan, if that is the only plan to be followed for the next few weeks. Any one of the guys or gals round here could do you up an infinitely better one. Also - you don't need to 'concentrate on doing them correct' as she maintains - how can you go wrong doing (mostly) machine exercises anyway.

Free weights are much much better than machine weights for many reasons and there is no reason you can't start using them straight away, as long as you learn how to do them properly and safely. If I were you I'd be looking up how to do the following exercises and taking a selection of them, using freeweights. Use a weight you can lift for no more than around 3 sets x 8 reps with excellent form:

For chest, arms:

Bench press (using dumbbells or barbell)

For back, biceps

Dumbbell rows, deadlift, lat pull-down is ok too, back extensions

For legs:

Squats, (again dbells or barbells, whichever you prefer), lunges (maybe go for dbells to start with but you can use a barbell either)

Others can chip in here too but I promise you will see better results with such an approach.

SUNGOD

hi celestial ,i only asked her to do a upper body programme as i will be doing high milege running and i think thats enough for my legs. the programme does seem very basic allright and i really am clueless when it comes to weight training. i have been looking at other thread/post and your right the free weights are valued above machines unfortunately the free weights section in my gym consists of a rack of dumbells and one adjustable bench.i was thinking of changing to bench press using dumbells as you suggested (no barbell) and dumbell rows,lat pull down,dead lift and back extension i will have to look up the last 2 to see exactly how there done.so thanks for your suggestions i plan on taking your advice and see how i get on
this is really only something im playing around with and would not be a primary goal of mine, the running is far and away my exercise of choice just thought it would be different to add in some weights to vary my training slighty. but if im going to do it i may as well do it right

SUNGOD

10 miles at half seven felt very tired towards the end, mainly as im up since 7 and have been going since then only stopping for a quick bite to eat during the day then straight home for my gear and hit the road feel very tired now but hopefully its nothing a good nights sleep wont fix

celestial

SUNGOD wrote: »

hi celestial ,i only asked her to do a upper body programme as i will be doing high milege running and i think thats enough for my legs. the programme does seem very basic allright and i really am clueless when it comes to weight training. i have been looking at other thread/post and your right the free weights are valued above machines unfortunately the free weights section in my gym consists of a rack of dumbells and one adjustable bench.i was thinking of changing to bench press using dumbells as you suggested (no barbell) and dumbell rows,lat pull down,dead lift and back extension i will have to look up the last 2 to see exactly how there done.so thanks for your suggestions i plan on taking your advice and see how i get on
this is really only something im playing around with and would not be a primary goal of mine, the running is far and away my exercise of choice just thought it would be different to add in some weights to vary my training slighty. but if im going to do it i may as well do it right

Cool - I wouldn't rule out doing weights for your legs too though - don't really agree with that whole 'I do enough for my legs through cycling/running' idea that people tend to have - don't forget that by training your legs with weights and building muscle you are also building stronger bones and helping to safeguard against potential injury. You can keep it light enough anyway to save the bulk of your energy for your running.

I've started getting into the running myself - you may see me asking you for advice soon;) Really want to up my cardio fitness and stamina - it's a big goal of mine for the rest of this year.