Raw Discussion - 7/1/2008 (contains spoilers!)

Mr.Nice Guy

Two words come to mind when I think of that Raw - f*cking awesome! To me that was a Raw right out of the attitude era. Fast-paced action, angles which worked, a great main event and a holy sh*t finish to it!

Some thoughts...

- The stuff with Kennedy and Michaels seems interesting enough.

- That lingerie pillow fight ruled. I know some people will profoundly disagree with me on that but those people are wrong. Maria + lingerie + pillow fighting = RATINGS. Superb stuff except for Ashley hogging the spotlight. Not to worry though as when Mania rolls around Maria will be centre stage.

- I liked the first blood match with HHH and Regal. I thought it was simple and enjoyable.

- I really liked the JBL/Jericho angle with the cable. JBL was great here and Jericho sold it like a trooper. I'm looking forward to their match.

- Good to see Foley back and he got a good pop for a change. The match itself was bowling shoe ugly as JR would say but I thought it was fun for what it was.

- That main event - WOW! Brilliant stuff. I don't care what anyone says this was right out of the top drawer. Everything worked here. Umaga came across as his usual vicious monster self. Orton came across as his nasty prick self and Jeff came across wonderfully as the babyface in peril. Terrific all round. Jeff's selling is really great. His facial expressions are top notch. I was into this match big time, as the crowd were, and it built magnificently with Jeff kicking out and frustrating the hell out of Orton. Just when I thought things couldn't get any better they did that brilliant finish with Jeff hitting his whisper in the wind off the damn cage! I almost fell out of my chair with that one. F*cking unreal. Did you hear the monster pop he got when he got the pin? He really is on fire right now. This was such a great win that I'm actually wondering if he's worked his way into contention for a stint as champion. I still don't expect that to happen but I see it as a possibility now at least, based largley on that showing.

I'm not a big advocate of five star rating systems or any of that stuff but what I will say is that match was unbelievably good. It accompished EVERYTHING it set out to do. The babyface got over, the heel champion got over, the match itself got over and they got over the PPV match at the Rumble to boot. Not bad at all!

Note to TNA fans - this was ridiculously simple stuff. No bleeding eyes, drinking contests or any of that horsesh*t. Just your standard babyface overcoming impossible odds match done to f*cking perfection. It's not rocket science you know.

I will be taping this match or at least downloading it because I really don't think there will be too many matches on Raw in 2008 better than this one. An early contender for MOTY for my money.

As you can tell I LOVED this match and if you haven't checked out this week's Raw I urge you to check it out as it was a great edition and this match made it even better! Top stuff!

amacachi

Very subtle blading by HHH too

Fozzy

I thought the first hour was bad. First two matches were just silly. Why was HHH so annoyed about being denied a spot in the Rumble when he didn't seem to care about losing his number 1 contenders match? What good did it do to have HHH beat Regal after Regal had seemingly had a fresh fire lit under him last week? I thought they were going to have a little feud, but HHH has already beaten him. I saw no point to it

JBL's first match back felt a lot like Jericho's first match back. No announcement beforehand, and there was no need for JBL to be there

Main event was great however. Orton vs Jeff is a good feud. But the show wasn't near as good as last week I thought

Prufrock

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

- That main event - WOW! Brilliant stuff. I don't care what anyone says this was right out of the top drawer. Everything worked here. Umaga came across as his usual vicious monster self. Orton came across as his nasty prick self and Jeff came across wonderfully as the babyface in peril. Terrific all round. Jeff's selling is really great. His facial expressions are top notch. I was into this match big time, as the crowd were, and it built magnificently with Jeff kicking out and frustrating the hell out of Orton. Just when I thought things couldn't get any better they did that brilliant finish with Jeff hitting his whisper in the wind off the damn cage! I almost fell out of my chair with that one. F*cking unreal. Did you hear the monster pop he got when he got the pin? He really is on fire right now. This was such a great win that I'm actually wondering if he's worked his way into contention for a stint as champion. I still don't expect that to happen but I see it as a possibility now at least, based largley on that showing.

I'm not a big advocate of five star rating systems or any of that stuff but what I will say is that match was unbelievably good. It accompished EVERYTHING it set out to do. The babyface got over, the heel champion got over, the match itself got over and they got over the PPV match at the Rumble to boot. Not bad at all!

Note to TNA fans - this was ridiculously simple stuff. No bleeding eyes, drinking contests or any of that horsesh*t. Just your standard babyface overcoming impossible odds match done to f*cking perfection. It's not rocket science you know.

I will be taping this match or at least downloading it because I really don't think there will be too many matches on Raw in 2008 better than this one. An early contender for MOTY for my money.

As you can tell I LOVED this match and if you haven't checked out this week's Raw I urge you to check it out as it was a great edition and this match made it even better! Top stuff!

Agreed. Great match. I'm enjoying this Orton Hardy angle. It's good to see Jeff get a push and it goes to show that Cena getting injuried wasn't really a terrible thing. There's always someone there to pick up the ball and run with it. Jeffs doing a damn fine job.

Spud83

Anyone else find the JBL trying to "hang" Jericho thing a little strange considering thats how Benoit offed himself. I rememeber a few weeks/months ago when Michales used the crossface some people thought that was a bit much but this has hardly been mentioned.

Regarding the main event, it looked awesome and to hit such a clean looking whisper in the wind from the top of the cage was a great spot. Orton against Hardy should be a great match, I hope the carry the fued on a little bit after the rumble and give them both some kind of hardcore/ladder match to work in.

Tricity Bendix

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Anyone else find the JBL trying to "hang" Jericho thing a little strange considering thats how Benoit offed himself. I rememeber a few weeks/months ago when Michales used the crossface some people thought that was a bit much but this has hardly been mentioned.

Sigh. Can you think of any reason yourself as to why the two situations can be regarded as different?

Fozzy

I didn't think that there was really anything wrong with Shawn using the crossface, but that choking bit by JBL was a bit much. It's not as if WWE had much choking on their shows before Benoit and his family died. Par for the course as far as WWE are concerned though

Mr.Nice Guy

I don't think that's a fair criticism. They have used choking on several occasions. Cena choked out Umaga using the ring ropes in his match last year at the Rumble. Muhammad Hussan choked out Shawn Michaels on the ropes before Hulk Hogan returned to make the save.

Shawn Michaels actually using the signature move of the murderer himself was far, far worse than the JBL/Jericho angle.

alex182

i agree with you MNG, wat a raw and wat a main event!

it always helps when the crowd are as into it as that but the performances of both guys, and in particular jeff, were impressive. (that 'whisper in the wind' could not have looked better if he'd done it a thousand times!!)

whatever has caused the wrestling audience to buy into jeff as a real contender, its more than welcome and at the moment i don't think it can be denied that he's looking the part. and as the weeks go by its making for great storytelling...and coupling this with great wrestling, its providing us with quality ENTERTAINMENT!

lets hope that all those concerned dont go and drop the ball after an impressive start to 2008!

P.S I'm a new poster here....and I'm looking forward to enjoying my time on these pages with you all for the forseeable future

Minto

I've only seen some of the things on RAW so far, but so far so good. I am disappointed that Triple H and Regal had a match so soon. I was hoping for one at the Rumble. I'm wondering what Triple H will be doing on Jan 27th, cos it doesn't look like he'll have a match and he can't be in the Rumble match itself.

Tricity Bendix

Its interesting to contrast the booking of Orton-Hardy to the booking of Orton-Jericho.

They had a long run-up to Jericho's return, giving a lot of airtime to the 'save_us' concept, yet the rivalry itself was a complete letdown.

Pushing Hardy has essentially come from Cena being injured. Its been a simple 'guy wins no.1 conteders match and challenges for the title' story, and its worked. Hardy has unbelievable momentum. I actually believe he could win the title, something which I never thought when Jericho was challenging.

Chong

Ok weird question, I thought it was my tv at first but did anyone think that Shawn Michaels and Kennedy looked orange, as in fake tan orange?

Gerard.C

Michaels always looks really ****ing orange. As does HHH....

Chong

True but they looked more orange than usual

Fozzy

Kennedy was very orange http://www.wwe.com/shows/raw/rawphotos/6167166/ Look at the man in the last photo!

The Sparrow

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Two words come to mind when I think of that Raw - f*cking awesome! To me that was a Raw right out of the attitude era. Fast-paced action, angles which worked, a great main event and a holy sh*t finish to it!

What the dickens??? Are you on craic?!:D

I thought that was one of the very worst episodes of RAW that I have ever seen! Yes the main event was pure greatness but it could not save the rest of this pile of crap.

Some thoughts...

- The stuff with Kennedy and Michaels seems interesting enough.

What was going on in that match? Talk about falling off a cliff! I'm not sure if it was the crazy Haas gimmick that was straight out of TNA or what but as J.R. put it was an absolute train wreck. It looked like it was four guys who had never met each other before thrown in a ring together. Shawn did his best but it was a strange, strange match. And not good strange imo!

- That lingerie pillow fight ruled. I know some people will profoundly disagree with me on that but those people are wrong. Maria + lingerie + pillow fighting = RATINGS. Superb stuff except for Ashley hogging the spotlight. Not to worry though as when Mania rolls around Maria will be centre stage.

Ye what? Were we watching two different shows? Bryan Alvarez described this as not only the worst match of 2008, but the probably the worst match of the past 2008 years. How did they let all of these girls go out there and not one of them have a clue what they were supposed to do!?! What the hell sort of match starts with the heel's and faces jumping up and down on a bed?!! and then slamming each other on a bed! Granted Maria looked hot but this match stunk up the place. You could hear that JR and King were lost for words to describe ho bad this was. If all you want to do is look at hot girls (a noble pursuit btw!) then porn is your friend!

- I liked the first blood match with HHH and Regal. I thought it was simple and enjoyable.

Found it fairly meh to be honest. Nothing interesting or new just an average short match. And Hun-tor with the power to make men bleed with just his fists. So why use a sledge hammer then?!

- I really liked the JBL/Jericho angle with the cable. JBL was great here and Jericho sold it like a trooper. I'm looking forward to their match.

I hated this! And from their reaction so did the crowd. There was just no reaction for it. And the JBL beat down seemed to go on for about 14 years! Talk about dead television!

- Good to see Foley back and he got a good pop for a change. The match itself was bowling shoe ugly as JR would say but I thought it was fun for what it was. !

What in the hell was this? What was the story with the skinny jobber dude? Why was he there? If this was TNA ppl would be shaking their heads. And even if he was just a jobber why would he turn around and give up his shot at winning a place in the Rumble just cos Mick Foley came back and asked him to go away? And why is Mick Foley in the Royal Rumble? And why did the Highlanders get the heat on Foley instead of Hornswaggle? Plus Foley looked quite spherical to say the least.

So much about this show sucked so bad and I haven't even got to the Hardcore Holly/ Carlito nonsense. Yes the main event was awesome and it probably saved this from being the worst Raw ever. Whoever came up with Raw Roulette needs to be fired.

BTW I'm not attacking your opinion of the show MNG. I'm just giving mine and I found it astounding that we could view the exact same show so differently. Go figure

Mr.Nice Guy

woooo232 wrote: »

What was going on in that match? Talk about falling off a cliff! I'm not sure if it was the crazy Haas gimmick that was straight out of TNA or what but as J.R. put it was an absolute train wreck. It looked like it was four guys who had never met each other before thrown in a ring together. Shawn did his best but it was a strange, strange match. And not good strange imo!

Well I only caught the last few minutes of this match and found it fine but since I didn't see it all I'll grant you this one.

woooo232 wrote:

Ye what? Were we watching two different shows? Bryan Alvarez described this as not only the worst match of 2008, but the probably the worst match of the past 2008 years. How did they let all of these girls go out there and not one of them have a clue what they were supposed to do!?! What the hell sort of match starts with the heel's and faces jumping up and down on a bed?!! and then slamming each other on a bed! Granted Maria looked hot but this match stunk up the place. You could hear that JR and King were lost for words to describe ho bad this was. If all you want to do is look at hot girls (a noble pursuit btw!) then porn is your friend!

And Alvarez should hang his head in shame for those remarks (some Maria fan he is!). This wasn't a "match" you see. It was simply supposed to be complete nonsense featuring beautiful women. If you approach it seriously you won't appreciate the brilliance of it. But if you approach it thinking, "this will be a train wreck but at least Maria will be in it" you will welcome its purpose.

woooo232 wrote:

Found it fairly meh to be honest. Nothing interesting or new just an average short match. And Hun-tor with the power to make men bleed with just his fists. So why use a sledge hammer then?!

Well my opinions on Hun-tor are well known but I've actually been surprised a tthe criticism he's received for this match. I definitely want to see Trips putting people over but Regal? As much as I respect him I don't see the logic since he's mainly a GM now. A GM shouldn't be beating a top guy.

woooo232 wrote:

I hated this! And from their reaction so did the crowd. There was just no reaction for it. And the JBL beat down seemed to go on for about 14 years! Talk about dead television!

I don't understand this criticism either. I also heard Alvarez say it got no reaction but that's inaccurate. The fans were loudly chanting "JBL sucks" as Jericho lay on the ground gasping for air. This angle worked for me and also for the guy who does the reviews on Alvarez's website:

JBL wraps some cable around Jericho's neck and drags him around, up the aisle, then tries to lynch him before the usual officials pulls him away. I thought this was a strong angle.

woooo232 wrote:

What in the hell was this? What was the story with the skinny jobber dude? Why was he there? If this was TNA ppl would be shaking their heads. And even if he was just a jobber why would he turn around and give up his shot at winning a place in the Rumble just cos Mick Foley came back and asked him to go away? And why is Mick Foley in the Royal Rumble? And why did the Highlanders get the heat on Foley instead of Hornswaggle? Plus Foley looked quite spherical to say the least.

The way I saw it the guy was there to bum out the fans who were hoping for a cool surprise. Then Mick's music hit and they got their cool surprise. Judging by the pop he got I'd call it a success. Why did the guy leave? Probably because Mick would have ate him! Why is Foley in the Rumble? I'm guessing it might be to set up that often talked about match between Foley and Umaga at Wrestlemania. I know it's a match Foley wants. For what this was designed to accomplish I felt it was a success.

woooo232 wrote:

BTW I'm not attacking your opinion of the show MNG. I'm just giving mine and I found it astounding that we could view the exact same show so differently. Go figure

Well it has been a very divisive show as some people like myself loved it and some people like yourself hated it. I guess it depends on what your expectations were. If you went in with low expectations as I did then you probably would have liked it more. If you went in hoping for more from Triple H (which is understandable) and the diva match (again understandable) and the opening tag then I guess you'd be left disappointed. I didn't expect much from them though.

I think what we can all agree on though is that main event ruled the earth!

Fozzy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

And Alvarez should hang his head in shame for those remarks (some Maria fan he is!). This wasn't a "match" you see. It was simply supposed to be complete nonsense featuring beautiful women. If you approach it seriously you won't appreciate the brilliance of it. But if you approach it thinking, "this will be a train wreck but at least Maria will be in it" you will welcome its purpose.

What reason is there for having women out there if they're just taking part in some nonsense? Like woooo232 said, you've got alternatives if you want your dose of half-naked women. The way I look at it is that yeah, they're hot, but they're taking up time on a wrestling show doing stupid stuff. It's insulting to the female audience and the wrestlers too

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well my opinions on Hun-tor are well known but I've actually been surprised a tthe criticism he's received for this match. I definitely want to see Trips putting people over but Regal? As much as I respect him I don't see the logic since he's mainly a GM now. A GM shouldn't be beating a top guy.

He didn't have to beat him in the usual sense of the word though, he just had to make him bleed. If Regal won then it would set up a rematch for the Rumble nicely, and there'd be no problem with HHH going over there. Now I'm worrying that HHH will get involved in the WWE title match, which would clearly be a bad thing

What can you expect though, HHH wouldn't even lay down for his hero last week in Flair's last ever match in Greensboro

Lita Forever

I've only seen the pillow fight so far. Needless to say it was the biggest pile of unnecessary crap I've seen in a long time. Definitely the worst match in ages. And yes MNG it was a match. It started with a bell, ended with a bell, and was decided with a pin fall. Yes it was pointless T & A nonsense, but it was presented as a match..

Honestly if you want to just ogle beautiful women then as another poster said watch porn. It begs the question as to why you're even watching a wrestling show. MNG I expected more from you, in all honesty.

Anyways, If WWE wanted to present random T & A nonsense they could have had a costume contest or something. What's more there was no way they should have had Mickie, Jillian and Melina involved in this mess. Those three are actually seen as credible wrestlers in the eyes of fans, but they won't be for much longer if they're showcased in things like this. I actually think WWE is trying to kill any credibility or momentum women's wrestling has. What's more, there was no appearance or mention of the division's champion for god's sake. Complete and utter crap.


Maybe I'm extra mad because I watched this match directly after Kong vs. Gail from Final Resolution. So it was seeing everything that's right with women's wrestling today followed by everything wrong with women's wrestling today. I have big problems with TNA's booking etc at times but right now they are way ahead of WWE in terms of the women. And with the bull**** WWE is throwing out there now, that's not a hard task.

flahavaj

Lita Forever wrote: »

Kong vs. Gail from Final Resolution.

I slagged off North American women's wrestling in another thread a while back but in fairness, this match was fantastic. Amazing Kong is a fantastic worker.

Mr.Nice Guy

Fozzy wrote: »

What reason is there for having women out there if they're just taking part in some nonsense? Like woooo232 said, you've got alternatives if you want your dose of half-naked women. The way I look at it is that yeah, they're hot, but they're taking up time on a wrestling show doing stupid stuff. It's insulting to the female audience and the wrestlers too.

What do you want from a lingerie pillow fight? A mat classic? Lucha-style action? Honestly people need to view it for what it was. It was T&A. Embrace it. I'd rather see this than see Maria and Melina try and have a match. That's insulting to every audience! Unfortunately if you are looking forward to seeing Maria there are no other alternatives.

Fozzy wrote:

He didn't have to beat him in the usual sense of the word though, he just had to make him bleed. If Regal won then it would set up a rematch for the Rumble nicely, and there'd be no problem with HHH going over there. Now I'm worrying that HHH will get involved in the WWE title match, which would clearly be a bad thing

What can you expect though, HHH wouldn't even lay down for his hero last week in Flair's last ever match in Greensboro

I agree with you 100 per cent but what were the chances of that happening? It was obvious that he would go over.

Lita Forever wrote:

I've only seen the pillow fight so far. Needless to say it was the biggest pile of unnecessary crap I've seen in a long time. Definitely the worst match in ages. And yes MNG it was a match. It started with a bell, ended with a bell, and was decided with a pin fall. Yes it was pointless T & A nonsense, but it was presented as a match..

Honestly if you want to just ogle beautiful women then as another poster said watch porn. It begs the question as to why you're even watching a wrestling show. MNG I expected more from you, in all honesty.

Come on, that's unfair. You're annoyed at me because I enjoyed a T&A match? That's the whole point of it! I don't see it as a "match" any more than I would those mud-wrestling 'matches' or water-fight 'matches'. It was meant to be light-hearted nonsense as evidenced by the Vince/Maria skit. We were given an excuse to ogle some attractive women. There is a place for this in the wrestling business as you must admit.

I'm a fan of women's wrestling as much as anyone. I've spoken highly of my admiration for Candice's in-ring efforts in 2007. Nonetheless there remains a place for diva 'activities' in the wrestling business and I see nothing wrong in enjoying some of their exploits!

Lita Forever

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

What do you want from a lingerie pillow fight? A mat classic? Lucha-style action? Honestly people need to view it for what it was. It was T&A. Embrace it. I'd rather see this than see Maria and Melina try and have a match. That's insulting to every audience! Unfortunately if you are looking forward to seeing Maria there are no other alternatives.

From what I can see, Fozzy wasn't saying what he expected from a pillow fight. He was saying there shouldn't have been a pillow fight in the first place.

I know I may be in the minority but I would have taken Melina vs Maria in an actual match a hundred times over that crap.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Come on, that's unfair. You're annoyed at me because I enjoyed a T&A match? That's the whole point of it! I don't see it as a "match" any more than I would those mud-wrestling 'matches' or water-fight 'matches'. It was meant to be light-hearted nonsense as evidenced by the Vince/Maria skit. We were given an excuse to ogle some attractive women. There is a place for this in the wrestling business as you must admit.

Sorry, but reading your earlier comments it just seemed like you were saying " Hey, lets just ogle the women and not care about what they can do in the ring" I do agree with you that there is a place for T & A in wrestling. After all the WWE audience is predominantly male. But there is a difference between simple T & A and T & A nonsense. This match was so stupid on a number of levels apart from what I mentioned previously;

It started with the faces and heels bouncing on a bed together. Come on now, they might be trying to present T & A but this is a wrestling show with history behind the characters. These women have had rivalries with each other. Mickie & Melina, Jillian & Mickie, Melina & Ashley, Ashley & Jillian..yet they can just all bounce on a bed together like best buddies?..That's not T & A that's stupid. And insulting to anyone that seriously follows the product.

At the end of the match Mickie and Maria watched Ashley pin Jillian. Yeah, in a 5 women match where every woman is for herself, two of the participants LET someone else take the winning pin. Now even though this is T & A, this is still a wrestling show remember? Even though this is nonsense it's still a match. A victory should mean something to the participants. I'd expect Maria to do something so silly but not Mickie. This is a match with the all the women's title contenders so in storyline world, you have to believe a win here would have put Mickie in line for a shot against Beth. But no, she watches someone else get the win, she doesn't care. See how nonsensical that is? Just because it's T & A, it doesn't mean all logic and sense must go out the window. This wasn't just random T & A it was complete and utter inane stupidity. There is a difference between the two, you know.

Even I have enjoyed harmless T & A in the past. But cases like this where any common sense goes out the window is just silly and makes everyone involved look like complete idiots. T& A doesn't always have to equal stupid. It's a shame WWE doesn't get that.

SlickRic

as has already been posted the main event was awesome with standout performances from both jeff and umaga in their respective roles of 'against the odds' face and 'monster' heel.

honourable mention for randy's selling as the 'worried champion' on the outside.

"SQUEEZE umaga...SQUEEEEEEEEZE....."

jeff has become extremely believable as a threat to randy in recent weeks. lets hope the feud continues a while after the rumble.....

looking forward to the JBL/Jericho match though the beat down by JBL was far, far too drawn out. i sensed the crowd became disinterested.

and i do get the feeling that this whole angle is a slightly desperate effort of sorts to get fans behind Y2J; using one of the most unpopular characters in recent memory in JBL. i'm going to go on record as saying that IMO it wont work. i believe he needs the freedom of his heel role so that he can start ripping people to shreds like we all know he can.

i think this is his only hope before mid card mediocrity beckons

most of the rest of the show on monday verged on complete garbage IMO

Mr.Nice Guy

Lita Forever wrote: »

Sorry, but reading your earlier comments it just seemed like you were saying " Hey, lets just ogle the women and not care about what they can do in the ring" I do agree with you that there is a place for T & A in wrestling. After all the WWE audience is predominantly male. But there is a difference between simple T & A and T & A nonsense. This match was so stupid on a number of levels apart from what I mentioned previously;

It started with the faces and heels bouncing on a bed together. Come on now, they might be trying to present T & A but this is a wrestling show with history behind the characters. These women have had rivalries with each other. Mickie & Melina, Jillian & Mickie, Melina & Ashley, Ashley & Jillian..yet they can just all bounce on a bed together like best buddies?..That's not T & A that's stupid. And insulting to anyone that seriously follows the product.

At the end of the match Mickie and Maria watched Ashley pin Jillian. Yeah, in a 5 women match where every woman is for herself, two of the participants LET someone else take the winning pin. Now even though this is T & A, this is still a wrestling show remember? Even though this is nonsense it's still a match. A victory should mean something to the participants. I'd expect Maria to do something so silly but not Mickie. This is a match with the all the women's title contenders so in storyline world, you have to believe a win here would have put Mickie in line for a shot against Beth. But no, she watches someone else get the win, she doesn't care. See how nonsensical that is? Just because it's T & A, it doesn't mean all logic and sense must go out the window. This wasn't just random T & A it was complete and utter inane stupidity. There is a difference between the two, you know.

Even I have enjoyed harmless T & A in the past. But cases like this where any common sense goes out the window is just silly and makes everyone involved look like complete idiots. T& A doesn't always have to equal stupid. It's a shame WWE doesn't get that.

You make fair points. I guess I just decided to not spend too much time worrying about logic and simply enjoy it for what it was. I do agree though that it's important for the writers to at least apply some logic and keep up to date with the rivalries.

I just think these kinds of bouts should be taken with a pinch of salt from fans.

Lita Forever

I do understand where you're coming from. The match would have been bearable to me and I might even have gotten some enjoyment out of it, if it didn't include the ridiculous things I mentioned. I take these thing with a pinch of salt as much as I can but sometimes the level of stupidity gets too high. It just annoys me that WWE don't seem to consider that while it's male audience are enjoying the pointless T & A, there's also female fans with brains watching the show. I don't mind so much that I have to sit through it, but when my intelligence gets insulted it's another story entirely.

Vince135792003

I think my problem with the lingerie thingy was that it went on 5 minutes longer than it needed too. 4 minutes of entrances and 2 minutes of action is enough for people who enjoy it get their kick from it and the people who don't enjoy it, to at least put up with it. Less is more in matches like that.

Lita Forever

Just saw the show, random thoughts;

Ugh, someone should tell Kennedy that orange is SO not a good look. Lol. Haas new gimmick is odd. But of course Haas is one of the more talented guys on the roster so what is there to do with him but saddle him with a silly gimmick. This could be one of those lame jokes by WWE that actually ends up getting over on it's own merit due to the performers talent or crowd reaction. We'll see.

As HBK was making a comeback and shouting at Haas to get up Murdoch yelled " no, stay down!" Lol, that cracked me up. Good progression on the HBK & Kennedy feud.

The trading places match? Bleh, just stupid. At least it was kept short though unlike other unwatchable things on this show.

During the Vince and Maria skit Vince moving the wheel from submission match to lingerie pillow fight was funny in a sad sort of way. It shows me WWE is aware of how pathetically they present the women's division, but don't care. Maria's line about " natural pillows" was used by Stacy Keibler years ago. Nothing new or fresh can be found, even in the script. *yawn* moving on..

Surprisingly, I've found a couple of good things about the lingerie pillow fight. Melina & Jillian bouncing on the bed during Ashley's entrance to try to take the attention off her was clever and funny I thought. Jillian and Melina hiding under the covers made me laugh too. Maybe they were hiding from the embarrassment of being involved in this. See, two of the three actual wrestlers in the match provide the only entertaining moments in the whole match. Get that WWE? No? Oh well.

I feel that heavy duty matches like first blood matches should be kept for a big match with proper build. Not just used out of nowhere. Although to be fair, that's the whole point of Roulette I suppose. So HHH isn't in the Rumble, right? That likely means he'll be inserted into or play a role in the title match...*groan*

Horswaggle in the Rumble? Interesting..his elimination could provide a cool spot if nothing else.

The ME was good from what I saw of it. Hardy is one of the few highlights on raw for me, along with Orton, so I'm enjoying that fued.

Overall it was a watchable show I guess, but I wouldn't class it as a great show by any means.