Cheap Meat or Animal Welfare

noby

Minder wrote: »

Battery chicken 39 days old. Free range 56 days old. Both chickens will eat roughly the same amout of food for the weight yield. The free range slightly more as some of the food energy is used up by the animal. That and the additional lighting and heating for 17 days does not equate to the price difference between the two types of bird. It can't - do the math. The price increase should be of the order of 40%. Instead the supermarkets charge 100 to 200% more for a similar weight of free range bird.

I don't want to get into a discussion on supermarket pricing. All I'm saying is that free range hens cost more to produce. The real issue here is that Tesco shouldn't be able to sell a chicken for a couple of euro. The fact that they do makes the free range chicken look a lot more expensive.

I spoke in the summer to a free range organic chicken and egg producer. He was telling me that in 1982 an egg cost 12p! I'm not sure what the equivelant in today's money is, but he reckons he should be selling for €1 an egg to make it really viable, but at that price no-on would buy his eggs.

Poppy78

I raised chickens a couple of years ago. They were laying eggs and running around the back garden. They were fun to keep and were nearly pets, mr Fox got them in the end. Ever since then I buy free range and generally find it tastier than standard chicken. The thing is, I hate sanctimonius pricks telling me what decisions I should make in life. That programme was so unbalanced and sensationalist that it made me angry even though I probably somewhat agree with the ethos. Although free range is not the great ethical saviour it was portrayed to be in this show, it probably is a start.

I refuse to believe that people do not know how cheap meat gets to be so cheap. (For one thing high moral grounders are always going on about it.) They know in the same way that they know Iraq is a dangerous place to live and that some number of homeless people slept out on the street in freezing temperatures last night. This information is somewhere in the back of our minds and people choose what their priorities are and act acordingly.

So the poor chickens are the cause du jour and the topic of conversation around the water cooler for a week. Do you honestly believe that the most of the people suddenly swearing off battery chicken, when they see a tasty chicken dish on their favourite restaurants menu will question its origins. Or the next time you are in a hurry on your lunch break and all the deli counter has left are a few slices chicken will you forego your lunch? Only if you are a very commited and principaled person.

Besides when was the last time you saw a pig out foraging in bushes and why are the cows so frighteningly large. I wonder do they feel left out of the moralistic sideshow with their poultry brethren getting all the media attention?

BaZmO*

noby wrote: »

I don't want to get into a discussion on supermarket pricing. All I'm saying is that free range hens cost more to produce. The real issue here is that Tesco shouldn't be able to sell a chicken for a couple of euro. The fact that they do makes the free range chicken look a lot more expensive.

Exactly. Was watching Jamie Oliver on breakfast TV this morning and he made a very good point with regards to all meat products. He said that you shouldn't be penny pinching when it comes to meat. It's the like of bog roll, cleaning products, clothes, etc. etc. that you should be trying to save money on.

Now that is not to say that you should be paying ridiculous amounts for meat but you should be aware of the cost involved in the process of getting quality to your plate. £5 for two whole chickens is just wrong by anybody's standards!

mike65

If "2 for a fiver" chickens was a car everyone would question its safety in a crash.

Mike.

catch--22

Poppy78 wrote: »

So the poor chickens are the cause du jour and the topic of conversation around the water cooler for a week. Do you honestly believe that the most of the people suddenly swearing off battery chicken, when they see a tasty chicken dish on their favourite restaurants menu will question its origins. Or the next time you are in a hurry on your lunch break and all the deli counter has left are a few slices chicken will you forego your lunch? Only if you are a very commited and principaled person.

But what if someone does? I really don't think this programme was preaching at people they way you seem to think.

I knew chickens had a crap life before I watched it, but I'd never actually seen it before. I might not always be able to source free-range chicken but I will buy it when I can.....because of that show. In that way the show worked ..... for me anyway!

And as BaZmO* mentioned above, never pinch pennies when it comes to meat!

MoominPapa

Hey Poppy
I take your point but I think this program and tonights Jamie Olivers show will make it less easy for people to say "I know its bad but I don't know how bad" I've been buying free range whole chicken exclusively for years, but would have bought a chicken sandwich or a chicken curry from the takeaway - not now, never again.
And it may be chickens de jour but it can, and should, be pigs manana. You've gotta start somewhere

rockbeer

Minder wrote: »

Battery chicken 39 days old. Free range 56 days old. Both chickens will eat roughly the same amout of food for the weight yield. The free range slightly more as some of the food energy is used up by the animal. That and the additional lighting and heating for 17 days does not equate to the price difference between the two types of bird. It can't - do the math. The price increase should be of the order of 40%. Instead the supermarkets charge 100 to 200% more for a similar weight of free range bird.

You fail to take into account the extra space needed for free range birds. Regular chickens are raised 17 to the square metre, free range probably less than half that number, which immediately doubles their effective base price.

I'm not saying supermarkets aren't cashing in on the perceived luxury factor of free range, the same way fair trade stuff is usually overpriced (in this country at least - not so in the rest of Europe) for similar reasons. However, there are undeniably significantly higher production costs to free range animals.

aidan24326

Jamie Oliver had a program on C4 tonight, going through the whole process of how eggs and chicken meat get to your table, and the way that eggs and chicken are now mass-produced in a factory type environemnt. I have to say it wasn't pretty, and it's being driven by the consumer, you and I, wanting cheaper prices, more for less. The farmers apparently make only a few pence on each chicken, so for them it's all about huge numbers and fast turnaround times. The supermarkets don't give a sh1t once they get large volumes at low prices. But ultimately it's Joe and Josephine Consumer who are driving it.

BaZmO*

aidan24326 wrote: »

Jamie Oliver had a program on C4 tonight, going through the whole process of how eggs and chicken meat get to your table, and the way that eggs and chicken are now mass-produced in a factory type environemnt. I have to say it wasn't pretty, and it's being driven by the consumer, you and I, wanting cheaper prices, more for less. The farmers apparently make only a few pence on each chicken, so for them it's all about huge numbers and fast turnaround times. The supermarkets don't give a sh1t once they get large volumes at low prices. But ultimately it's Joe and Josephine Consumer who are driving it.

You need to read between the lines of that show. It's not the consumer that's "driving" these low prices per se. Uneducated consumers (generally) will always go for the cheapest product but with some education and knowledge, which is conveniently not provided by the supermarkets, people will make better choices.

But having said that, I'm actually really surprised that people didn't know already that chickens are raised in these types of conditions.

dinkydee

Do we have a similar rspca/ farm freedom chicken for sale here or just Value/ Free Range???

Minder

Interesting info from the CH4 website re chicken rearing...

Red Tractor

This is the standard chicken. Around 90% of all British chickens - about 774 million birds each year - are produced according to Red Tractor's Assured Chicken Production (ACP) guidelines.

Typically, birds live indoors in windowless sheds for 40 days until they reach a slaughter weight of 2.2 kilos. Ventilation, temperature, feed, water and lighting are carefully controlled.
Large sheds house up to 50,000 birds, although 25,000 is more common. The rules allow 38 kilos of chicken per square metre - that’s about 18 birds when near slaughter weight. The equivalent in area to an A4 piece of paper for each chicken.

Both sides of the fence

Critics consider the ACP system to be inhumane. Birds can develop painful leg and hip injuries because of their restricted movement and rapid weight gain. Chickens typically have no perches or benches, and the sheds are dimly lit to discourage activity. "They should switch to slowing growing breeds and allow more space and enrichment," says Joyce D’Silva, campaigner for animal welfare group, Compassion in World Farming.
Defenders argue that ACP is a highly efficient and well-regulated system for producing affordable chicken. “The Red Tractor logo really does count for high standards, and Britain produces the safest poultry meat in the EU,” says Peter Bradnock, chief executive for The British Poultry Council.
ACP rules are both comprehensive and revised every year following scientific advice, says Bradnock. In contrast, countries such as Brazil and Thailand, which in 2007 exported 120,000 tonnes of chicken meat to the UK, have no animal welfare legislation.

Typical price per chicken (1.6 kilos): £2.20

Freedom Food

This scheme was set-up by the RSPCA in 1994, and operates as a registered charity. 40 million birds were raised under this system in 2007.

This is a step-up from the ‘standard’ ACP chicken, allowing the birds 25% more space, brighter indoor light and a slower growth - around 50 days from hatching to slaughter. Sheds include straw bales and pecking objects to play with.

Freedom Food also runs assurance schemes for free-range and organic chickens, so you may find their logo on these birds too. Some chickens carry both the Red Tractor and Freedom Food logos.

Typical price per chicken (1.6 kilos): £3.80

Corn fed

Watch out for this one. ‘Corn fed’ as a marketing term has no legal definition under EU law. Generally it is considered to mean that the bird has been fed a diet of at least 50% corn during the final fattening phase of its life. The corn gives the meat its characteristic yellow colour.

Typical price per chicken (corn fed Freedom Food 1.6 kilos): £5.10

Free Range

Free range chickens have access to the outdoors for at least half their lifetime during daylight hours. Age at slaughter is 56 days. The outdoor area must be ‘mainly covered by vegetation’. Stocking densities must not exceed 27.5 kilos per square metre – around 12 birds.
You may also see labels for ‘traditional free range’, which allows more access outdoors, lower stocking density and a minimum age at slaughter of 81 days. Or ‘free-range – total freedom’, which allows unrestricted day time open-air access.

Be aware, though, that there is no limit on the size of free-range flocks, and they typically number several thousand birds.

Typical price per chicken (1.6 kilos): £5.90

Freedom Food or Free Range - what's the difference? Our guide gives you the facts behind the labels

Around 30% of organic chickens in our shops are certified by the Soil Association, which insists on higher standards of welfare than other organic bodies which follow EU rules. For example, their flocks are ideally 500 birds, with a maximum of 2,000. EU rules allow up to 4,800.

“Organic birds raised to Soil Association standards are genuinely ‘free-range’,” says Robin Maynard of the Soil Association. “With some other systems, the flocks are so large, several thousand birds strong, that many birds never venture out of doors.”

Under Soil Association rules, up to 1,000 birds can live in each shed, with no more than 10 chickens per square metre. Feed is free from GM and has been produced without the use of pesticides. Age at slaughter is a minimum of 81 days – twice the length of a ‘standard’ chicken.

Typical price per chicken – (Soil Association, 1.6 kilos): £8