Will secondhand car prices be affected by the vrt changes?

jack_pearse

I am wondering if the proce of second hand cars will change relative to the price of new cars whent the new VRT bands come in?
I know tha the VRT only effects new cars but will there be a shift in second hand proces as a result
I am going to buy a second hand car this year and wonder should I wait til the Summer.

Henry Ford III

Yes I'd have thought. Inversely to the changes.

So an "old regime polluter" may firm in value, but an "old regime non polluter" will most likely loose value.

Most middle of the road cars really won't be affected too much tbh.

ismynametoolong

In Short !! Yes

Tipsy Mac

jack_pearse wrote: »

I know tha the VRT only effects new cars.

And 2nd hand cars imported into the state.


I think the price of 2nd hand diesel cars will fall, the price of 1-2 litre petrol cars is unlikely to change given the road tax increases wont really impact too much. I would say popular SUV and large cars will possibly increase in price as the road tax savings will make the current fleet cheaper than newly registered. It's likely a massive glut of UK diesels will be imported by people to avail of the cheap road tax and vrt on them.

E92

Fast/large engine sized petrol cars are bound to go up in value too.

Breezer

Yes, and I would encourage all current owners of less polluting cars to write to Minister Gormley and your local TDs in an effort to have this changed. It's ridiculous that people who have already taken steps to reduce their carbon emissions are now being penalised for doing so too early.

I've already done this, and have so far received a reply from one TD promising to put pressure on the Minister to have this rectified. The Minister acknowledged receipt of my letter and 'another letter will issue shortly.' I'll keep you posted here. In the meantime, do pressurise your TDs and Gormley, we need more people power in this country.

Seth Brundle

Breezer wrote: »

Yes, and I would encourage all current owners of less polluting cars to write to Minister Gormley and your local TDs in an effort to have this changed. It's ridiculous that people who have already taken steps to reduce their carbon emissions are now being penalised for doing so too early.

I've already done this, and have so far received a reply from one TD promising to put pressure on the Minister to have this rectified. The Minister acknowledged receipt of my letter and 'another letter will issue shortly.' I'll keep you posted here. In the meantime, do pressurise your TDs and Gormley, we need more people power in this country.

So what do YFG propose as an alternative?

yellow012

Breezer wrote: »

Yes, and I would encourage all current owners of less polluting cars to write to Minister Gormley and your local TDs in an effort to have this changed. It's ridiculous that people who have already taken steps to reduce their carbon emissions are now being penalised for doing so too early.

I've already done this, and have so far received a reply from one TD promising to put pressure on the Minister to have this rectified. The Minister acknowledged receipt of my letter and 'another letter will issue shortly.' I'll keep you posted here. In the meantime, do pressurise your TDs and Gormley, we need more people power in this country.

I sent an email to John Gormley back when the budget changes were announced highlighting this anomaly and didn't get any response. Somehow I think Gormley doesn't see us motorists as voters and citizens of this country but just cash cows to be squeezed as tightly as possible.

yellow012

kbannon wrote: »

So what do YFG propose as an alternative?

Sorry, I think your trying to be confrontational here rather than trying to understand what the problem is?
There is a very straightforward way of sorting this out and that is to allow
the owners of all cars bought in the last 3 or 4 years the option to move to the emissions linked road tax.
If you have bought a low emissions car you should be rewarded rather than penalised.

ninty9er

Yellow, believe me, if you wear a political tag around here, be willing to take some abuse, but remember that you are just as entitled to dish it back.

That's because Gormley is the government minister with responsibility for management and implementation of the plan. Brian Cowen is responsible for tweaks to the system. So don't waste the paper asking Gormley to make the changes, that would be wasted paper, no matter how encouraging the reply:D:D

No matter how encouraging the reply from Gormley, there is nothing within his power that can be done to rectify it.

Sandwich

Is Gormley not being perfectly logical on this topic? The aim is to influence the carbon efficiency of new registrations.

Changing the system for existing registrations would not influence the total carbon emissions of fleet on on Irish roads today - only give a little windfall to some. Nothing to gain in that from a 'Green' perspective. If he were apply it to all existing registrations then some individuals would gain and some would lose (and dont tell me you bought that car instead of another a few years ago because of its carbon emissions were lower). No minister would want to put up with the criticism from the losers when the net sum is zero anyway.

what_car

E92 wrote: »

Fast/large engine sized petrol cars are bound to go up in value too.

how will my car (07 accord) fare out value wise come july, considering that the road tax for a new one will be €1000 and the road tax for mine would be €590. according to the spreadsheets vrt goes from 30% to 32% confused:

also there is a new model accord due late this year,,

how will this affect the value of it.

Seth Brundle

yellow012 wrote: »

Sorry, I think your trying to be confrontational here rather than trying to understand what the problem is?

I responded to someone who is promoting a political party and also asking people to contact their TD and also the Minister. I am merely seeking some balance. If a political supporter is going to be critical of an opposing partys policy (in this case the opponent is in government) then its only fair for them to declare their parties beliefs on the matter.

opus

E92 wrote: »

Fast/large engine sized petrol cars are bound to go up in value too.

Have to ask why would this be? I've an old 328i that although running sweetly, figured was worth next to nothing at this stage. My current plan is to drive it 'til it dies although it proving very resilient

what_car

ninty9er wrote: »

Yellow, believe me, if you wear a political tag around here, be willing to take some abuse,

yes Especially if FF .. as they have earned it well. and the greens are not far behind, and catching up well,:D

E92

opus wrote: »

Have to ask why would this be? I've an old 328i that although running sweetly, figured was worth next to nothing at this stage. My current plan is to drive it 'til it dies although it proving very resilient

Cause anything registered after July will most likely go into the 36% VRT compared to 30% now, but crucially, you will be paying €2,000 to tax it(if it pollutes more than 225 g/km CO2) compared to at most €1,491 if the car is registered before July!

If you keep that car for another 2 or 3 years you could always sell it on to me you know in 2 or 3 years time;)!

yellow012

Sandwich wrote: »

Is Gormley not being perfectly logical on this topic? The aim is to influence the carbon efficiency of new registrations.

Changing the system for existing registrations would not influence the total carbon emissions of fleet on on Irish roads today - only give a little windfall to some. Nothing to gain in that from a 'Green' perspective. If he were apply it to all existing registrations then some individuals would gain and some would lose (and dont tell me you bought that car instead of another a few years ago because of its carbon emissions were lower). No minister would want to put up with the criticism from the losers when the net sum is zero anyway.

Ok, Its not about influencing total carbon emissions its about treating people fairly.

I reckon due to the budget changes there has been approx €4k wiped off the value of my car - the exact same car after July will cost approx €2500 less plus and its a big plus the road tax will be €150 a year as opposed to €550. So for example over the course of 4 years someone who buys after July will save €1600 in road tax (2500+1600).

How would you feel if you were working for a company and you were paying PAYE at 42%. A guy or gal joins the company 6 months after you, who is doing the same job and is in the exact same circumstances as you but only had to pay tax at 10%.
Is that fair or not?

And by the way how do you know whether or not the co2 rating of my car influenced my initial purchase?
As it happens it did, these changes have been flagged for a long while and before buying last year I checked on the manufacturers UK web site to see what the co2 rating was.

opus

E92 wrote: »

Cause anything registered after July will most likely go into the 36% VRT compared to 30% now, but crucially, you will be paying €2,000 to tax it(if it pollutes more than 225 g/km CO2) compared to at most €1,491 if the car is registered before July!

If you keep that car for another 2 or 3 years you could always sell it on to me you know in 2 or 3 years time;)!

Ah right I see, thanks for the explanation. It's 218 g/km according to this site.

Will be sure & drop you a pm when I'm thinking of a change

Breezer

kbannon wrote: »

I responded to someone who is promoting a political party and also asking people to contact their TD and also the Minister. I am merely seeking some balance. If a political supporter is going to be critical of an opposing partys policy (in this case the opponent is in government) then its only fair for them to declare their parties beliefs on the matter.

A more sensible policy would be to allow all motorists the option to move to the new system when renewing their road tax, thus allowing those with cleaner cars to benefit from a system that is better for the environment and better for the individual owner. Switching to the new system could be made compulsory after a number of years, in order to prevent those with more polluting cars from continuing to pollute cheaply, while at the same time giving them a reasonable lead in period and not unfairly reducing the cars' second hand value, as they would have depreciated quite a bit at this stage anyway.

This is my own personal opinion, not the opinion of YFG or FG, although the TD in question who replied to my letter was Sean Barrett of FG, who seemed broadly in agreement with me that the proposed system is unfair and should be altered to treat all motorists the same way.

Is Gormley not being perfectly logical on this topic? The aim is to influence the carbon efficiency of new registrations.

Changing the system for existing registrations would not influence the total carbon emissions of fleet on on Irish roads today - only give a little windfall to some. Nothing to gain in that from a 'Green' perspective. If he were apply it to all existing registrations then some individuals would gain and some would lose (and dont tell me you bought that car instead of another a few years ago because of its carbon emissions were lower). No minister would want to put up with the criticism from the losers when the net sum is zero anyway.

On the contrary, it would encourage people to explore not only the new but also the second hand markets in cleaner cars, helping to remove the more polluting cars from our roads. Yes, 'some would gain and some would lose,' except if the system I outlined above were put in place, those that gain would be those who pollute the least, and those that lose would be those who pollute the most. Since, as you point out, the net sum is zero, surely a Green minister should adopt the approach which is best for the environment?

And yes, while you may find it hard to accept, there are people who believed in helping the environment before it started hitting their pockets. I for one have always been very pro-environment and gave the Greens a high preference at the last election, which I seriously doubt I will do again. The CO2 emissions were a factor when I bought my car, although admittedly this was in the last year.

ninety9er wrote:

That's because Gormley is the government minister with responsibility for management and implementation of the plan. Brian Cowen is responsible for tweaks to the system. So don't waste the paper asking Gormley to make the changes, that would be wasted paper, no matter how encouraging the reply

No matter how encouraging the reply from Gormley, there is nothing within his power that can be done to rectify it.

Admittedly, I didn't fully consider this. I don't claim to be an expert on the precise breakdown of political responsibility in this country, I merely support a party whose overall policies I admire. However, I have written to several people presumably far more expert on the matter, whom I have no doubt will direct my concerns to the relevant Minister. Additionally, should Gormley attempt to pass the buck, legitimately or otherwise, I will simply write another letter to the correct Minister, while politely asking Minister Gormley if he would be so kind as to try to push his Government colleagues in a Greener direction. This is, after all, what he was elected to do.

ismynametoolong

Revenue wanted any moves over to a CO2 based VRT and or road tax systems to be revenue Neutral and so i am simply amazed they FF have allowed this system to be implemented.
As people move to Diesel and smaller CO2 petrol engines it can only lead to a reduction in VRT and road tax revenues and thus every year they will have to adjust the CO2 bands to reflect this drop further disrupting the sechond hand values its crazy .

OTK

yellow012 wrote: »

I reckon due to the budget changes there has been approx €4k wiped off the value of my car

Wow so you actually went ahead after the budget and bought the very car you calculated would lose the most value in July 08?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54600098&postcount=2

Cars are wasting chattels, losing 15-20% of their value per year. You would lose 5k in year one on a diesel skoda octavia, even if tax rates remained constant.

E92

I'd say the Government will introduce a diesel loading, there's no way they're going to let the post July situation go on for too long, I mean a lot of diesels are going to be in the 16 or 20% VRT category compared to 25 or 30% now, while a lot of petrols are going to go up from 22.5 and 25% to 24 and 28% and possibly a lot more, so obviously people are not going to be buying petrols for too much longer.

I'd say there will be a diesel loading, and the Government will claim that diesels are a health risk or something as justification for their actions.

Breezer

ismynametoolong wrote: »

Revenue wanted any moves over to a CO2 based VRT and or road tax systems to be revenue Neutral and so i am simply amazed they FF have allowed this system to be implemented.
As people move to Diesel and smaller CO2 petrol engines it can only lead to a reduction in VRT and road tax revenues and thus every year they will have to adjust the CO2 bands to reflect this drop further disrupting the sechond hand values its crazy .

Not necessarily. It would be far easier to simply increase the taxes themselves, rather than mess around with the CO2 bands and then have to explain why a car that was 'clean' 3 years ago is suddenly 'polluting.' In fact, they have already done this - tax on the old system has gone up from last year.

This isn't really what I have a problem with, I accept that taxes have to go up from time to time. What I have a problem with is the fact that someone who buys an identical car to me, but several months after me, will forever pay less tax and have a higher resale value on the car simply due to what amounts to an administrative decision.

watagip

is there any easy way of comparing cars to see which will be most affected by the new tax? i'm a learner driver and want a small car just to start off in and will prob sell it again in a few months

Breezer

Are you buying second hand? I presume you are given that you're planning on selling so soon. You won't be affected by the new tax as it currently stands, so just buy a 1L. You might even pick one up with a few months tax still on it.

Del2005

Breezer wrote: »

A more sensible policy would be to allow all motorists the option to move to the new system when renewing their road tax, thus allowing those with cleaner cars to benefit from a system that is better for the environment and better for the individual owner. Switching to the new system could be made compulsory after a number of years, in order to prevent those with more polluting cars from continuing to pollute cheaply, while at the same time giving them a reasonable lead in period and not unfairly reducing the cars' second hand value, as they would have depreciated quite a bit at this stage anyway.

You do off course know that a lot of the CO2 for a car is from it's manufacture and disposal. So forcing someone to scrap a perfectly good car just because it produces a bit more CO2 when driven to replace it with a new car that has loads of new CO2 is silly. The option of changing would be OK, but should be based on NCT results not manufactures figures, as older cars tend to pollute more as parts wear.

yellow012 wrote: »

Ok, Its not about influencing total carbon emissions its about treating people fairly.

I reckon due to the budget changes there has been approx €4k wiped off the value of my car - the exact same car after July will cost approx €2500 less plus and its a big plus the road tax will be €150 a year as opposed to €550. So for example over the course of 4 years someone who buys after July will save €1600 in road tax (2500+1600).

How would you feel if you were working for a company and you were paying PAYE at 42%. A guy or gal joins the company 6 months after you, who is doing the same job and is in the exact same circumstances as you but only had to pay tax at 10%.
Is that fair or not?

And by the way how do you know whether or not the co2 rating of my car influenced my initial purchase?
As it happens it did, these changes have been flagged for a long while and before buying last year I checked on the manufacturers UK web site to see what the co2 rating was.

Thats life. You knew the changes where coming in and even had an idea how they would work yet still went out and bought a new car. You can't go crying about it now. I recently bought an apartment and now they cost less, can I get the goverment to pay part of my mortgage as I bought at the wrong time? No. And I know someone doing the same job as me paying much less tax, I don't go crying to the goverment.

As for the OP's question, the price of certin 2nd hands will go down and most garages have already taken this into account now when offering trade in prices.

Del2005

watagip wrote: »

is there any easy way of comparing cars to see which will be most affected by the new tax? i'm a learner driver and want a small car just to start off in and will prob sell it again in a few months

Just buy an old ~€2000 car and learn to drive in that. When you are confident get something better. Don't want to worry about scrapes and dents when learning to drive

Breezer

Del2005 wrote:

You do off course know that a lot of the CO2 for a car is from it's manufacture and disposal. So forcing someone to scrap a perfectly good car just because it produces a bit more CO2 when driven to replace it with a new car that has loads of new CO2 is silly. The option of changing would be OK, but should be based on NCT results not manufactures figures, as older cars tend to pollute more as parts wear.

A good point, but where did I say that people would be forced to scrap a perfectly good car? Read my post again: I said that people should have the option to change over to the new system, with it being made compulsory a few years down the line, when most people would be changing their cars anyway.

Del2005 wrote:

Thats life. You knew the changes where coming in and even had an idea how they would work yet still went out and bought a new car. You can't go crying about it now. I recently bought an apartment and now they cost less, can I get the goverment to pay part of my mortgage as I bought at the wrong time? No. And I know someone doing the same job as me paying much less tax, I don't go crying to the goverment.

This is a different issue altogether. House prices are linked to the performance of the construction sector, supply, demand, and economics in general. The fact that someone who buys a car in June will pay a different amount of tax for the duration of that car's life to someone who buys an identical car in July is due to an administrative decision the Government has made, one which is completely within the Government's control, and which is both unfair and unnecessary.

E92

ismynametoolong wrote: »

Revenue wanted any moves over to a CO2 based VRT and or road tax systems to be revenue Neutral and so i am simply amazed they FF have allowed this system to be implemented.
As people move to Diesel and smaller CO2 petrol engines it can only lead to a reduction in VRT and road tax revenues and thus every year they will have to adjust the CO2 bands to reflect this drop further disrupting the sechond hand values its crazy .

The CO2 system will probably work like it does in the UK, in the UK they decrease the bands every year or 2, i.e. at the moment a car that does 171-190 g/km of CO2 this year would be in the 28% VRT band, and next year a car would have to pollute between 166-185 g/km of CO2. This is bound to happen for a number of reasons, a) people are going to switch to lower polluting cars like diesel, and unless they're MPVs or 4X4s they will be cheaper by and large, than they are now, and b) the EU's much talked about blanket CO2 limits will require all cars to have an average CO2 of 130 g/km in 2012, compared to the current average of 164 g/km or thereabouts, so that is a drop of 34 g/km right away too.

Of course what the Government really needs to do is to put an end to VRT in its entirety and tax fuel more highly. It would cost money in the short term, but in the long term, a large part of pollution comes from driving cars. I mean a 6.0 litre car doing 2 or 3 k miles a year is far better for the planet than a 2.0 litre driving 20k miles a year, but the Government seems to think that big cars going nowhere or only doing a very small amount of driving are far worse for the planet than people driving small engined cars
driving everywhere. I'm still paying €560 to tax my car, whether I drive it to Dublin and back everyday or drive it only at weekends down to West Cork. I don't see why people who don't use their cars so often should pay the same amount(in terms of money to the Government from VRT and Motor Tax) as those who do tens of thousands of miles a year. If the Government were serious about climate change, they would have buses running every 5 to 10 minutes in places like Cork(and if they would come and leave on time that would be a great help as well) and other cities, and people would leave their cars behind and take the bus or DART or whatever into town or wherever they want to go in the City, and this would be of enormous benefit to everyone, much less pollution in the city centre and no congestion which would allow those who actually need a car to get somewhere to get there far, far faster, and no congestion would be far better for the economy, and our competitiveness too.

yellow012

OTK wrote: »

Wow so you actually went ahead after the budget and bought the very car you calculated would lose the most value in July 08?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54600098&postcount=2

Cars are wasting chattels, losing 15-20% of their value per year. You would lose 5k in year one on a diesel skoda octavia, even if tax rates remained constant.

Err your jumping to some conclusions here, I was planning to buy a 08 car but have since cancelled.

Del2005

Breezer wrote: »

A good point, but where did I say that people would be forced to scrap a perfectly good car? Read my post again: I said that people should have the option to change over to the new system, with it being made compulsory a few years down the line, when most people would be changing their cars anyway.

When it becomes compulsory. We have 2 15 year old cars and 1 13 year old car in our family. These cars are still perfect yet if they are forced onto the new emissons based system then they would have to be scrapped. The only reason why I changed from my 15 year old car was because a little bollox tried to steal it and the Gaurds told me to get rid of it cause they would just keep coming back, gave it too my father and its still going strong. A lot of 3+ year old cars now would become worthless if this came in as no-one would buy them on the new system if it became compulsory.

This is a different issue altogether. House prices are linked to the performance of the construction sector, supply, demand, and economics in general. The fact that someone who buys a car in June will pay a different amount of tax for the duration of that car's life to someone who buys an identical car in July is due to an administrative decision the Government has made, one which is completely within the Government's control, and which is both unfair and unnecessary.

Yeah I was only making a point, should have said stamp duty.