Will secondhand car prices be affected by the vrt changes?

yellow012

I'd say the majority of diesel car owners don't realise the implications of the budget change yet. Its only when they go to trade in and the first question they are asked, is whether their car is in the lower or higher road tax band? Will they realise something is up. If they give the wrong (for them) answer and are told their car is worth €2k less than that identical car over the other side of the yard that's when the cr4p will hit the fan.

Breezer

Del2005 wrote: »

When it becomes compulsory. We have 2 15 year old cars and 1 13 year old car in our family. These cars are still perfect yet if they are forced onto the new emissons based system then they would have to be scrapped. The only reason why I changed from my 15 year old car was because a little bollox tried to steal it and the Gaurds told me to get rid of it cause they would just keep coming back, gave it too my father and its still going strong. A lot of 3+ year old cars now would become worthless if this came in as no-one would buy them on the new system if it became compulsory.

But this is exactly the point of the system, or at least it's supposed to be. By scrapping your old car, and buying a newer, cleaner one, your carbon emissions will be reduced. I accept that the scrapping and manufacturing processes produce more CO2, but these are once off, as against an older, more polluting car being run and emitting large amounts of CO2 constantly. Also, if you are given a lead in time before it is made compulsory, say 4 years, your cars will then be 17 and 20 years old. Most people do not keep cars for that long anyway.

I'm not targeting you personally by the way, we have a 10 year old car in the house ourselves and our situation would be similar to yours.

My point is that this system is not going to convenience everyone, no system does, but since it is supposed to be a green tax why is it penalising those who have tried already to be green, rather than those who haven't?

Yeah I was only making a point, should have said stamp duty.

Again, a different issue. Stamp duty changes affect everyone equally (all single people, all married couples, etc.), and only apply when buying a house. This (the motor tax, not the VRT) treats two people with identical cars, producing identical amounts of CO2 per km, differently, applies every single year and affects the resale value of the cars.

yellow012 wrote: »

I'd say the majority of diesel car owners don't realise the implications of the budget change yet. Its only when they go to trade in and the first question they are asked, is whether their car is in the lower or higher road tax band? Will they realise something is up. If they give the wrong (for them) answer and are told their car is worth €2k less than that identical car over the other side of the yard that's when the cr4p will hit the fan.

I agree, there isn't a fuss being made of this in the national media. I saw one news report and that was it. Which is why those who are being affected negatively by this need to write to their TDs and make it an issue.

E92

Buying a new car is equivalent to 2 years worth of average driving. So it is clearly very bad for the planet. Scrapping a car, even one that can be fully recycled uses up huge amounts of energy, and is also very bad too. The best thing for the environment is to keep your old car going for as long as you can, and make sure it is always serviced on time and look after it well.

And in terms of emissions, the CO2 from older cars might actually be a bit better than newer ones, yes newer ones have all the fancy technologies, but newer cars are like tanks compared to old ones in terms of weight, so all this clean technology is I'm afraid not being used to its full potential because of all the safety laws, a lot of which are of the EU's own making, and make cars weigh an awful lot more, as and affect aerodynamics negatively(I'm thinking of the pedestrian safety laws here), which compounds the problem, and all this extra weight is also bad for the planet, because more raw materials have to be used, and there is all the pollution that goes with it.

ninty9er

E92 wrote: »

I'd say there will be a diesel loading, and the Government will claim that diesels are a health risk or something as justification for their actions.

A number of countries, not just the UK load diesels, like the Spanish tax harder on anything over 1.6 if petrol or....I'm not quite sure what the actual system is but it has a number of permutations.

If any tax is to be levelled at Diesels, I would like to see it be NO2 based rather than just on the basis that the car is diesel and therefore should be taxed the same as another diesel with multiples of the NO2 output.

Breezer

E92 wrote: »

And in terms of emissions, the CO2 from older cars might actually be a bit better than newer ones

Then the old car will cost less on the new system than a newer model and there is no need to change it.

Of course, ideally motor tax and VRT should be scrapped and a much heavier tax placed on fuel, which in fairness is probably what the Greens want to do (I say 'probably', because this being Ireland, it will probably end up with higher fuel tax as well as VRT and and motor tax). Still though, if they are bringing in this system, they should at the very least make it apply equally to identical cars.

ninty9er

E92 wrote: »

Buying a new car is equivalent to 2 years worth of average driving. So it is clearly very bad for the planet. Scrapping a car, even one that can be fully recycled uses up huge amounts of energy, and is also very bad too. The best thing for the environment is to keep your old car going for as long as you can, and make sure it is always serviced on time and look after it well.

Even so, people are always going to buy new cars, regardless of the emissions involved in production.

E92

ninty9er wrote: »

Even so, people are always going to buy new cars, regardless of the emissions involved in production.

I realise that but I'm sick of hearing this crap that a new car is somehow wonderful for the environment, and old cars are extremely dirty. I suppose in one sense it's true, but really anything with a catalytic converter is far better be it Euro I or Euro IV than anything without.

Del2005

This would also kill off classic cars. If they force all cars onto the new system then no-one is going to keep an older car. How will we have classic cars in the future? So in 2010 we'll have no cars apart from 1900-1980 and 2000+. There are an awful lot of cars that will disappear for ever:(

E92

Del2005 wrote: »

This would also kill off classic cars. If they force all cars onto the new system then no-one is going to keep an older car. How will we have classic cars in the future? So in 2010 we'll have no cars apart from 1900-1980 and 2000+. There are an awful lot of cars that will disappear for ever:(

Its only changing for anything registered after July. Business as usual for everything else. And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't classic cars have a very low tax rate anyway?

Del2005

Breezer wrote: »

But this is exactly the point of the system, or at least it's supposed to be. By scrapping your old car, and buying a newer, cleaner one, your carbon emissions will be reduced. I accept that the scrapping and manufacturing processes produce more CO2, but these are once off, as against an older, more polluting car being run and emitting large amounts of CO2 constantly. Also, if you are given a lead in time before it is made compulsory, say 4 years, your cars will then be 17 and 20 years old. Most people do not keep cars for that long anyway.

I'm not targeting you personally by the way, we have a 10 year old car in the house ourselves and our situation would be similar to yours.

I only ever planned to keep the car till it died a natural death. Then I would have got a new clean car when I needed it not because the government wanted to pretend to be green and force me to scrap a perfectly good car to buy a new one. How would my carbon emissions be reduced? I'd produce less CO2 here, but the car would have to be made and then transported to Ireland. Thats a lot of CO2 to replace a working car. All that it would be is a con to fool people into thinking that they where being good for the environment.

My point is that this system is not going to convenience everyone, no system does, but since it is supposed to be a green tax why is it penalising those who have tried already to be green, rather than those who haven't?

I agree, but from the other side. You made a decision to be green when you replaced your car. I don't want to replace my car, and when I do it'll be for a green car. Can you not be happy in the knowledge that you didn't have to be forced to be green:D

Del2005

E92 wrote: »

Its only changing for anything registered after July. Business as usual for everything else. And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't classic cars have a very low tax rate anyway?

Sorry, should have been clearer. I was talking about the idea from Breezer to force all cars onto the new tax rates. I know classics will have a €46 tax, that why I said we'd only have cars form pre 1980 and post 2000. All the cars manufactured between them dates would have huge tax rates and very few people would be willing to spend €1000-€2000 tax a year to keep a car on the road. And these rates are only going to go up, they will do like the UK where they are steadily forcing company car drivers into cleaner cars. But our chancers will just raise it for everything and say they are being green, when it's really a revenue earner. Since people will start to buy cleaner cars they will be forced to raise the tax on dirty old cars to compensate.

Breezer

Del2005 wrote: »

I only ever planned to keep the car till it died a natural death. Then I would have got a new clean car when I needed it not because the government wanted to pretend to be green and force me to scrap a perfectly good car to buy a new one. How would my carbon emissions be reduced? I'd produce less CO2 here, but the car would have to be made and then transported to Ireland. Thats a lot of CO2 to replace a working car. All that it would be is a con to fool people into thinking that they where being good for the environment.

I accept your point. I also have no idea what kind of milage you do, or how much CO2 your cars produce. However there are people unnecessarily driving round in 6L Jags and the like, who may well continue doing so for a long time if they are not forced to do otherwise.

Anyway, now that you mention it...

I was talking about the idea from Breezer to force all cars onto the new tax rates.

Like you say here, this is my idea, and not necessarily the policy of any political party. Just reiterating that.

I agree, but from the other side. You made a decision to be green when you replaced your car. I don't want to replace my car, and when I do it'll be for a green car. Can you not be happy in the knowledge that you didn't have to be forced to be green:D

While it is nice and sunny up here on the moral high ground, the fact that I'm operating on a budget is a bit of a killjoy

Let's leave my idea of a compulsory element to the new system aside for a moment though. Can you or anyone else justify that cars registered pre-July '08 cannot, as it stands, be placed on the new system, thereby ensuring that they potentially cost their owners far more to run and will not get as good a return on trade-in than an identical car registered after July '08? It's bureaucracy, plain and simple.

Del2005

Breezer wrote: »

Let's leave my idea of a compulsory element to the new system aside for a moment though. Can you or anyone else justify that cars registered pre-July '08 cannot, as it stands, be placed on the new system, thereby ensuring that they potentially cost their owners far more to run and will not get as good a return on trade-in than an identical car registered after July '08? It's bureaucracy, plain and simple.

I was thinking about this. Could you export the car and re-import to get onto the new system? AFAIK you will even get your old number back. May involve a few white lies but the saving could be worth it;)

Breezer

Del2005 wrote: »

I was thinking about this. Could you export the car and re-import to get onto the new system? AFAIK you will even get your old number back. May involve a few white lies but the saving could be worth it;)

I see no reason why not, which just goes to show how ridiculous this is.