Where do you do your gun training?

ircoha

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0106/firearms.html reports on this leisure activity.

I am just back from Eastern Europe where I had a half days training on some of the coolest guns.

Anyone else been at this?

Kintarō Hattori

I'm going over to Poland in June/July and our friends there will be taking us to the gun range. The area was pretty active in WW2 so I'm looking forward to getting my hands on a few old guns and a few new ones.

Dunno if its the same as gun training but I'm looking forward to it BIG TIME.

Manic Moran

No, I do it locally, in three main manners.

1) The Army pays me to go to the range and shoot things. Sometimes they give me live bullets and tell me to shoot at targets in a restrictive environment, sometimes they give me blanks and lasers, which is a lot more fun as it's far less restrictive and a bit of a challenge as the targets also have blanks and lasers and are trying to shoot me.

2) I pay to go to the range and shoot things. More often than not, paper targets from a stationary position. However, sometimes I go to a tactical pistol or tactical rifle course run by a local policeman, which is always fun. Far less regimented than the Army's ranges. (The Army barely trusts you with live ammunition)

3) I just go to a field and shoot things. The advantage is the utter lack of regulation, you can do what you want, free of any range rules. Unfortunately, this usually entails a bit of a drive as local policies don't encourage random shooting in the city. Some 'known sites' also have targets which people bring out to shoot at, old cars, refrigerators, monitors, and so on and so forth.

I usually bring visitors to my neck of the woods out shooting. Never had anyone complain yet.

Mr Mitchell said it is unacceptable that criminals with, as he put it, 'murder on their mind' are able to hone their shooting skills in other EU member states

And it's unacceptable that he wishes to restrict our abilities to enjoy ourselves in the second-most-popular recreational sport in the world. (The first is fishing, apparently)

NTM

eoin5

If fishing is the most popular and shooting is the second then I think this has potential:

Manic Moran

eoin5 wrote: »

If fishing is the most popular and shooting is the second then I think this has potential:

True, there is a fish-hunting season in two US States. (Vermont and South Carolina, I think)

NTM

AckwelFoley

For me, i just sir on top of a hill in the country (ive a real cool spot) and lay in the grass, and pick off anything that are down in the fireld at the bottom.. crows, rabbits, travellers, foxes etc

Overheal

I thought masturbating was the mose enjoyed recreational sport - and im pretty sure im winning.

Go to the gun range every time im down in florida. nothing major, just pistols. the Desert Eagle was fun but has way too much kick to be anything but a scare tactic.

you saying theres firing ranges here in Ireland? awesome........ tell me more?

It wasn't me!

Plenty of places for a day's clay shooting, and there are plenty of clubs for target shooting. Lots in north wicklow, for example.

Karoma

So,um,how many of you actually read the linked article before posting?

Kintarō Hattori

Karoma wrote: »

So,um,how many of you actually read the linked article before posting?

I did and it was a load of poop by a politician so I ignored what he had to say. I really just wanted to mentioned that I'm hyper-excited (is that a real word?) about this summer and can't wait to go fire a gun or two, or three with some polish dudes!

Wertz

....and it's not as if it was a long article.

How exactly does Mr Mitchell want other countries to go about this? We're the ones with the over restrictive policy on handgun ownership. We have open borders with these countries, we're quite willing to benefit from the good that they provide...but we must also live with the bad.
As an aside, many of the male Baltic and EE immigrants arriving here have done some sort of national service that I'm sure has included training in firearms....we don't know if any of them have criminal records and we're not doing much to find out. How can we be sure of their intentions? There are more things to worry about than our own breed of shootist (I DON'T want to make this an immigrant bash thread, just making a point)

I got taken to a range in the US when I was over there by a member. Got to do 10-15 minutes of shooting with his wife's gun, little mother-of-pearl handled thing, think it was a 9mm. Was fun as hell. The only thing I'd ever shot prior to that was a .22 rifle out in a field when I was a youngster.
I didn't leave with the urge to shoot anyone. I certainly wouldn't have minded honing my shooting skills at a range again though...

[edit] The ironic thing was that the guy who took me thought I'd be au fait with weapons and shooting, being from a border area and all the IRA crap...it was an eye opener for him about how much guns were restricted here.

WhiteWashMan

I do my training on the shooting forum...

Chunks

Manic Moran wrote: »

(The Army barely trusts you with live ammunition)

American military + live ammunition.... barely trust... You don't say!

Sparks

Oh hooray. Another thread saying that target shooting is the province of terrorists and criminals and we're all dodgy characters. Thanks, all of you, for this wonderful gift. In fact, it's so wonderful, I'm going to wrap it back up and put it away to enjoy at a later date.

Sparks

Hmmm. Apparently this thread started off in AfterHours (I thought it started in Shooting), so I'm kicking it back to AH and I'll rescind the infraction for the OP.

Jesus Wept

Post Office.

qwertz

Anybody have some links to clubs/ranges?

WhiteWashMan

try the shooting forum.

Donny5

Chunks wrote: »

American military + live ammunition.... barely trust... You don't say!

It's the same in Ireland, and I hear the UK, and probably everywhere else. All armies keep strict control of live on base and during training. There's many reasons, I'm sure, but I reckon No.1 is so people don't mix blank with live on ex's.

At the gym.

Bang bang.

Steyr

Donny5 wrote: »

but I reckon No.1 is so people don't mix blank with live on ex's.

Its impossible to mix live with Blank to be honest.

Live Examples:

Blank Examples:

Wertz

Ah okay this is back open. Thanks to sparks; wasn't looking to start an argument with feedback thread, just thought closing it was a bit off, but didn't realise it had been moved to his forum when it was locked. It was all WWM's fault

On topic: this thread has reignited my interest in a bit of shooting, so I might look around and see what sort of money is involved in using Irish firing ranges (which I didn't realise existed for anything other than defence forces or members of the GS).
Don't know if I'd stretch to heading off to EE to do it...unless prices here warrant that. I know it was cheap enough in the 'states but most places were members only.

John Mason

Finglas;)

Wertz

[obligatory AH reply] Yore Ma's bedroom !!11![/obligatory AH reply]

Sparks

Wertz wrote: »

Ah okay this is back open. Thanks to sparks; wasn't looking to start an argument with feedback thread, just thought closing it was a bit off, but didn't realise it had been moved to his forum when it was locked. It was all WWM's fault

That's cool Wertz, I never even saw the feedback thread
/me heads off to flame Wertz in Feedback...

baztard

I've been to a couple of shooting ranges in Poland and USA. The one in Poland was way better, higher caliber and better range of weapons and so much cheaper! Its all down to the shooting range itself I guess though.

Creature

de_dust2

Wertz

Sparks wrote: »

/me heads off to flame Wertz in Feedback...

Bring it.

*brandishes water pistol in Sparks' direction*

My sister interviewed the guy who is the producer of the Daily Show recently. During it he told them about one segment they filmed in Mexico. For some reason the local police started shooting into the air near them. Their translator told them that the police were using live rounds because blanks were far too expensive.

Wertz

I've always wondered about live rounds fired in the air...I mean they're nowhere near escape velocity nor have enough momentum, so must return to the ground, probably doing a fair clip on the way back down. Would suck a lot to be injured or killed by someone celebrating up the road, even though it's against the odds...

Sparks

Wertz wrote: »

I've always wondered about live rounds fired in the air...I mean they're nowhere near escape velocity nor have enough momentum, so must return to the ground, probably doing a fair clip on the way back down. Would suck a lot to be injured or killed by someone celebrating up the road, even though it's against the odds...

It's not against the odds, it's impossible (And has been tested in practise as well as explained in theory).
Thing is, you fire vertically upwards in completely still air; the bullet goes straight up, slows, eventually stops, then falls back. It reaches terminal velocity the same way any falling object in a medium does and does not accelerate past that speed, which for a bullet in air, turns out not give enough kinetic energy to do harm. It's like the whole "penny dropped from the empire state building" urban legend.

cornbb

Sparks wrote: »

It's not against the odds, it's impossible (And has been tested in practise as well as explained in theory).
Thing is, you fire vertically upwards in completely still air; the bullet goes straight up, slows, eventually stops, then falls back. It reaches terminal velocity the same way any falling object in a medium does and does not accelerate past that speed, which for a bullet in air, turns out not give enough kinetic energy to do harm. It's like the whole "penny dropped from the empire state building" urban legend.

Isn't there some basic principle of physics that says that, apart from energy lost through friction (which would be negligible) the bullet would have the exact same energy (in the form of velocity) when it comes back to the ground as it did when it left the barrel of the gun?

Sparks

No, there isn't.

ScumLord

So if you drop a penny from the empire state building it can't kill someone?

Sparks

Or to be more expansive, when the bullet leaves the barrel, it's been accelerated by the action of the expanding gas behind it; with that gone, it behaves as a rigid body in free flight. Your leaving cert physics/applied math equations apply to determine how high it goes, but it's descent speed is limited by the drag forces on it as it falls. That's why a skydiver doesn't accelerate all the way to the ground.

Wertz

So a piece of lead doing terminal velocity (200 mph? I forget) isn't going to injure? Interesting. It'd have to be like getting hit with a slingshot or something though, no?
My comment on odds was more about the odds of it actually hitting anyone, given that a person presents a much smaller target from above (unless they're out sunbathing )...

cornbb

Sparks wrote: »

No, there isn't.

My grasp of physics in this case is probably flawed alright. But there doesn't seem to be a definitive proof that a bullet returning to earth won't kill or cause serious injury. The top 5-10 results here all make contradictory claims, mostly backed up by dubious proofs.

Sparks

ScumLord wrote: »

So if you drop a penny from the empire state building it can't kill someone?

Not by landing on them, no. It's been tested (Mythbusters, Oct 17, 2003 - even firing the penny from a rifle didn't give it enough kinetic energy to penetrate a human skull, let along letting it just fall at terminal velocity).

Of course, you might distract them with it, and looking to see where it came from, they might back up out onto the street only to be hit by a bus, but I don't think that should count.

Sparks

Wertz wrote: »

So a piece of lead doing terminal velocity (200 mph? I forget) isn't going to injure? Interesting. It'd have to be like getting hit with a slingshot or something though, no?

Terminal velocity for a .30 calibre bullet is about 320 feet per second; but that's shaped to be streamlined. For a penny, it's much less; try half that. For a .22lr bullet, it's going to be about the same as for the penny - the bullet's very, very small.

Terminal velocity is a function of the drag coefficient, which varys according to the surface presented to the relative wind, so it's not really a simple number, of course - but those figures are in the right ballpark at least.

Mind you, I wouldn't want to be looking up lest it hit me in the eye - you'd probably be blinded by it...

Pherekydes

cornbb wrote: »

Isn't there some basic principle of physics that says that, apart from energy lost through friction (which would be negligible) the bullet would have the exact same energy (in the form of velocity) when it comes back to the ground as it did when it left the barrel of the gun?

No. It's never going to go beyond its terminal velocity.

Drag increases as the square of the velocity so sooner or later the drag would equal the weight and the object would cease to accelerate.

Tests were performed by the US army and their results showed for a particular round with a muzzle velocity of 2700 feet/sec the terminal velocity was only 320 f/s.

In short, the energy lost through friction or drag is quite substantial.

Jackz

Surely shooting, my god.

Fad

i shot a M16 in 'nam (i really did i was in vietnam last febuary and a the cu chi tunnels visitors site you have a choice between a big aray of gun)

cornbb

Slow coach wrote: »

No. It's never going to go beyond its terminal velocity.

Drag increases as the square of the velocity so sooner or later the drag would equal the weight and the object would cease to accelerate.

Tests were performed by the US army and their results showed for a particular round with a muzzle velocity of 2700 feet/sec the terminal velocity was only 320 f/s.

In short, the energy lost through friction or drag is quite substantial.

The original question was whether it could kill someone though, I don't think anyone has disproved that... There's an excellent balanced article about it on the Straight Dope: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html

For further insight, we turn to Hatcher's Notebook (1962) by Major General Julian S. Hatcher, a U.S. Army ordnance expert. Hatcher described military tests with, among other things, a .30 caliber bullet weighing .021 pounds. Using a special rig, the testers shot the bullet straight into the air. It came down bottom (not point) first at what was later computed to be about 300 feet per second. "With the [.021 pound] bullet, this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds," Hatcher wrote. "Previously, the army had decided that on the average an energy of 60 foot pounds is required to produce a disabling wound. Thus, service bullets returning from extreme heights cannot be considered lethal by this standard."
...

On further investigation, it appears the 60 foot-pound injury threshold cited by Hatcher may be misleading--a falling bullet's kinetic energy (foot pounds) alone is not a good predictor of the speed it needs to inflict a wound. B. N. Mattoo (Journal of Forensic Sciences, 1984) has proposed an equation relating mass and bullet diameter that seems to do a better job. Experiments on cadavers and such have shown, for example, that a .38 caliber revolver bullet will perforate the skin and lodge in the underlying tissue at 191 feet per second and that triple-ought buckshot will do so at 213 feet per second.

Mattoo's equation predicts that Hatcher's .30 caliber bullet, which has a small diameter in relation to its weight, will perforate the skin at only 124 feet per second. It's easy to believe that such a bullet falling at 300 feet per second could kill you, especially if it struck you in the head.

Manic Moran

Steyr wrote: »

Its impossible to mix live with Blank to be honest.

Impossible or not, I've seen it happen a few times. If you're interested, it goes right through the BFA.

Don't know if I'd stretch to heading off to EE to do it...unless prices here warrant that. I know it was cheap enough in the 'states but most places were members only.

You just went to the wrong ranges...

The advantages to Eastern Europe are the variety you can shoot, which is generally greater than in the US, let alone Ireland. Irish clubs are limited to what the local Garda Super thinks people should have. Western Europe also has a generally greater variety than the US (People tend not to realise this, confusing proliferation with legal variety), but the laws on full-auto and "coming-off-the-street" use are much tighter, making it very difficult to go shooting in Germany on vacation, for example.

NTM

Donny5

Steyr wrote: »

Its impossible to mix live with Blank to be honest.

Live Examples:

Blank Examples:

I'm sure it is ;D nudge, nudge...

Kernel

Manic Moran wrote: »

And it's unacceptable that he wishes to restrict our abilities to enjoy ourselves in the second-most-popular recreational sport in the world. (The first is fishing, apparently)

NTM

Whoah back up there Charlton Heston! I enjoy shooting on occasion myself, although I don't own a firearm, but the Minister's point here is very valid. The country is enjoying an epidemic of cocaine fueled criminal gangs at the moment. Is it really a good idea that they can pop off to Czech Republic or elsewhere and receive tactical anti-terrorist training by former commandos? No, no it isn't.

SimpleSam06

Sparks wrote: »

It's not against the odds, it's impossible (And has been tested in practise as well as explained in theory).
Thing is, you fire vertically upwards in completely still air; the bullet goes straight up, slows, eventually stops, then falls back. It reaches terminal velocity the same way any falling object in a medium does and does not accelerate past that speed, which for a bullet in air, turns out not give enough kinetic energy to do harm. It's like the whole "penny dropped from the empire state building" urban legend.

In the Philippines, many people were injured by bullets fired into the air falling to earth this new years. The authorities are trying to crack down on it, but its almost impossible since a lot of people over there are heavily armed. On a semi related note, I do firearms training in Manila, which is quite an experience. Also see here.

"Most of the injuries were superficial and there were no deaths. This is most gratifying," Duque said in a statement.

testicle

Steyr wrote: »

Its impossible to mix live with Blank to be honest.

Live Examples:

Blank Examples:

My testicle it is.

I can see you've learned absolutely nothing about weapons safety in the FCA.

Have you ammunition at home? Those photographs are from your personal photobucket.

testicle

Wertz wrote: »

I've always wondered about live rounds fired in the air...I mean they're nowhere near escape velocity nor have enough momentum, so must return to the ground, probably doing a fair clip on the way back down. Would suck a lot to be injured or killed by someone celebrating up the road, even though it's against the odds...

Seen The Mexican?

FunkZ

Yis should have a boards battle... we can all get guns off of eBay, maybe?

Sparks

Kernel wrote: »

the Minister's point here is very valid.

No, it isn't.

The country is enjoying an epidemic of cocaine fueled criminal gangs at the moment. Is it really a good idea that they can pop off to Czech Republic or elsewhere and receive tactical anti-terrorist training by former commandos? No, no it isn't.

Leaving aside the somewhat humourous take that maybe if they could shoot straight you wouldn't see too many innocent bystanders shot, there's the minor point that the eejit is suggesting that we restrict travel of our citizens to a foreign country within the EU on the grounds that they might engage in something perfectly legal there.

Care to suggest how you could legislate to stop that? Or are we going to invade the Czech Republic and change their legislation to make it illegal to have firing ranges there to allow tourists to shoot?

FFS people, this is Gay Mitchell we're talking about here. The man reacted to September 11 by demanding that Ireland get a squadron of jet fighters to defend the Dail against possible suicide attack by terrorists hijacking aircraft flying out of Dublin Airport! He's Fine Gael's answer to Willie O'Dea's mustache!

If you're serious about reducing armed crime and drug crime in this country, fund the Gardai. End of story, really.