all you independent women...

Crumble Froo

ok, in response to pigman II's comment in the name thread... well.. what's your take on it?

i always resent the "well, you're a modern woman, surely you believe in independence", crap. yes, im a modern woman, and im not some simpering idiot. but ...

ok, currently, the eloquence escapes me, but maybe i can throw this out there, and see what ye have to say,a nd that'll give me a chance to quote ye to get this otu there a bit better.

basically, what im trying to say is... how 'independent' are you, do you have to be, what lengths do you go to to demonstrate your 'independence' and equality?

Cathmandooo

Self suffiency?

I would class a lady who can provide for herself and *could successfully live alone to be independent.

* she doesnt have to live alone to prove her independence though!

Lux23

I pay my own bills, pay for pretty much everything really. I can do pretty much everything on my own although I would be afraid to go on holidays alone. I have the occasional boyfriend but never anyone who was close enough to let me become a little codependent. I do occasionally get a few quid from my parents but very rarely so I would bet that I am one of the most independent people that I know. I am a bit of loner in some ways I guess, I spend time with people when it suits me or if they really need someone to talk to.

Maple

lemme see, i'm completely self sufficient financially. i pay my rent, my bills, never have to get a dig out from the parents, I run my car, have a job with good career prospects. I go on holiday by myself, eat in a restaurant by myself, go to cinema by myself. I'm comfortable in most social situations and have no qualms meeting new people.

I love being around people but I don't need to be around people.

WindSock

I could be pretty self sufficient, if I wanted to be. I am just being lazy at the moment but I managed to travel for a few years on my own so I know I can be self reliant. I would hate the idea of being a single parent though.

ztoical

Lux23 wrote: »

I pay my own bills, pay for pretty much everything really. I can do pretty much everything on my own although I would be afraid to go on holidays alone. I have the occasional boyfriend but never anyone who was close enough to let me become a little codependent. I do occasionally get a few quid from my parents but very rarely so I would bet that I am one of the most independent people that I know. I am a bit of loner in some ways I guess, I spend time with people when it suits me or if they really need someone to talk to.

I would be very similar, work, earn my own cash and when I was living with my ex-boyfriend everything was split 50/50. I've no probs going on holidays by myself but all my "holidays" are usual working ones - I'm a freelance illustrator/cartoonist and I go to comic cons/art festivals for my holidays.

I value my privacy alot and see it as big part of my independance. I dated guy who thought cus we were living together that meant he could go through my mobile text messages without asking, use my computer and look through my files without asking and look through some boxes of personnel stuff that I kept - there was nothing major in them some letters and photos and random things that prob look like junk to others but held value you to me. I would have gladly let him look at all those things had he asked but it was the fact that he though was intitled as my boyfriend [what was his was his and what was mine was his attitude] I have a few friends who see nothing wrong with their bf's doing this, one of them said to me "it just shows him I'm not cheating" I hate that attitude - you telling him your not cheating should be enough and if he doesn't belive you then you've got trust issues.

I have to say I did agree with Pig whatever his name was comments - I was suprised that so many women on the thread would take their husbands name upon marriage, just not something I'm use to hearing I guess as nither my mum or her 3 sisters changed their names.

John Mason

I own my house

I do all my own DIY, i probably have more tools then most guys in fact i have been know to do DIY in my male friends houses

i have absolutely no need for a man except in the physical sense

adsgirl

Have been on my own with my kids for seven years now, have learned to be fairly self sufficent, but also know when to ask family and friends for help if i need to, so not totaly independant i guess.

Crumble Froo

ok. as alraedy established, im pretty crap at communicating what i want to say, but anyway, ill give it a go now.

Cathooo wrote: »

I would class a lady who can provide for herself and *could successfully live alone to be independent.

* she doesnt have to live alone to prove her independence though!

this, i think is the crux of the issue for me. the implication that taking a name for any reason other than women's independence/equality is detrimental to her independence or self sufficiency is a bit OTT, i thought. i'm mostly just curious if that's just me.

Lux23 wrote: »

I pay my own bills, pay for pretty much everything really. I can do pretty much everything on my own although I would be afraid to go on holidays alone. I have the occasional boyfriend but never anyone who was close enough to let me become a little codependent. I do occasionally get a few quid from my parents but very rarely so I would bet that I am one of the most independent people that I know. I am a bit of loner in some ways I guess, I spend time with people when it suits me or if they really need someone to talk to.

and that's something else... does being a bit of a loner, and not being dependent on other people make for a more 'independent woman'? is that something desirable?

ztoical

narco wrote: »

this, i think is the crux of the issue for me. the implication that taking a name for any reason other than women's independence/equality is detrimental to her independence or self sufficiency is a bit OTT, i thought. i'm mostly just curious if that's just me.

I'm prob the wrong person to comment on this as I don't actually belive in marriage full stop. I dislike the notion of taking a mans name when you marry for it implies that he has domance over you, that you now belong to him. I'm not explaining that the best but that is how i feel about it. I belive to be a strong independent woman you always have your own idenity - it doesn't matter if you live on your own or with someone, or if you have a career or are a stay at home mom - I just can't stand woman who introduce themsevles to me as "Hi I'm Mrs. John Ryan" People should be equal partners in relationships. I think you can have couples that kind merge into one being [and only get you one b-day gift between them cheap bastards] but its one being thats equal parts of both of them.

And when your not in a relationship theres nothing wrong with that. I'm single for the past 18 months and pretty happy being single right now but you get all this crap if you say that. I've people tell me I'm lieing, that I'm really unhappy and should get myself a man ASAP or that maybe I'm gay and thats why I don't want one. I find guys don't get that crap nearly as much. If a guy is single thats ok cus he can "play the field" etc etc Its like a man can exist on his own but a women cann't? And I'm not saying its a sexist male thing cus women don't help. I go to pubs and clubs with my friends and somehow we are able to use the bathroom by ourselves or go outside alone or even get on the dance floor by ourselves yet herds of women seem unable to do this...why does it take three girls to go to the bathroom and no just into the bathroom but all three go into the one stall, WTF???

I don't see being a "loner" as a bad thing [I enjoy being by myself but then I need space for work] but maybe its more self sufficient then independent.

I'm after getting soaked in the rain so off to dry off, I'll prob re-read this in 30mins and its will make no sense.

Lux23

narco wrote: »

and that's something else... does being a bit of a loner, and not being dependent on other people make for a more 'independent woman'? is that something desirable?

I like my own space. I have plenty of friends but I tend to suit myself when it comes to spending time with them. As for it being desirable, well its just the way I am I can't change it. I would be offended though if people thought me odd for it though as its who I am.

Don't get me wrong I do want people to help me out in difficult times, im going through something like that now and someone is helping me through it but I would like to think that if I had noone to rel on I would survive. Its a sad fact in life that I learned that when things go wrong the only person you can really rely on is yourself.

Iago

ztoical wrote: »

I dislike the notion of taking a mans name when you marry for it implies that he has domance over you, that you now belong to him. I'm not explaining that the best but that is how i feel about it. I belive to be a strong independent woman you always have your own idenity

I'm not sure I get this mentality at all.

Surely if you're in a relationship where you have respect and love, changing your surname wouldn't suddenly change that to him having dominance over you?

Also, the idea that your identity is a by product of your name is a strange one. Surely your identity is made up of all the elements of your personality that make you who you are? None of that changes if you change your surname.

Do you really believe that people will treat or react to you any differently if you became Jane Smith instead of Jane Bellamy?

Lux23

Iago wrote: »

I'm not sure I get this mentality at all.

Surely if you're in a relationship where you have respect and love, changing your surname wouldn't suddenly change that to him having dominance over you?

Also, the idea that your identity is a by product of your name is a strange one. Surely your identity is made up of all the elements of your personality that make you who you are? None of that changes if you change your surname.

Do you really believe that people will treat or react to you any differently if you became Jane Smith instead of Jane Bellamy?

Its not really how people would treat me, but how I would feel myself and thats whats important. I just wouldn't feel comfortable taking someone else's name. Im actually the only person in northern europe with my name and I like that, it makes me feel different. (Possibly all of europe)

Know that wasn't directed at me but I thought I would jump in.

Would you be prepared to change your name Iago?

Iago

Moonbaby wrote: »

Would you be prepared to change your name Iago?

I'm glad you asked!!

As my wife has a sister and no brothers, and her fathers brothers all only had daughters we did discuss the option of either changing my name to her surname or her keeping her name and naming any children by her surname. In the end she decided she wanted to change her surname to mine, but to be honest it really wouldn't have bothered me one way or the other.

As I said above, a name is just a title, it's all the elements that make up your personality that are important.

metaoblivia

As far as independence goes, I'm single, live on my own, work full time, pay all of my own bills, and am graduating from graduate school tomorrow. I'm going on holiday to Australia in March and I paid for that out of my own pocket. I furnished my apartment out of my own pocket. If independence is being able to provide for yourself without depending on anyone else, then I would imagine that qualifies.

Ginny

For independace I'd say yes I am, nothing to do wth relationships I was just like that growning up.
Put myself through college, worked while studying for my Postgrad, got a really really good job with excellant salary and prospects.
In saying all this I've spent 11 years in 2 relationships, this however has never ever affected my independance and both exs although were a huge part of my life they weren't my life.
I'm now in the process of buying my own house and have my own car.
I think everyone man woman etc. should be indepedent, relaying on someone else is not good for them and really not good for you.
I don't think anything i do is amazing or astounding i just assumed everyone was as self sufficent as myself.

I think the only think I'd balk at would be going to the cinema alone, it just doesn't appeal to me.
As for the name issue, my surname is quite cool but short so if i could I might double barrell it.
As for the "Introducing Mr and Mrs John Smith" type stuff, if I ever got married and anyone called me by my husbands first name they wouldn't reach the second name before I ripped their tongue out...:D(joking obviously)

ztoical

Iago wrote: »

I'm not sure I get this mentality at all.

Surely if you're in a relationship where you have respect and love, changing your surname wouldn't suddenly change that to him having dominance over you?

Also, the idea that your identity is a by product of your name is a strange one. Surely your identity is made up of all the elements of your personality that make you who you are? None of that changes if you change your surname.

Do you really believe that people will treat or react to you any differently if you became Jane Smith instead of Jane Bellamy?

Its not the actually act of altering your name - I can go down to *insert the name of the actually goverment office cus I forget* and change my name. If I marry and change my name I go from Jane Ryan to Jane Smith but also from Ms Ryan to Mrs Ryan while hubby stays Mr. John Smith no matter what. If I had kids and thouch wood its planned and I'm with the father then the kids would get his name no issue with that. Daddy's not around kids get my surname.

My surname certainly doesn't define me, I have an usual irish name so outside of Ireland I rarely have to use it. Its mainly only for ID that I need it. Just for me if I entered into a marriage it would be an equal partnership, therefore neither party should have to alter their name. We are no longer marrying into clans, long ago it use to matter what surname you took cus when you married you didn't just marry you became part of your husbands clan [depending on culture some have the men joining the womens tribe]

I just find the whole concept of maiden names and married names a bit antiquated as it makes it sound like our only job is to find someone to marry. But at the end of the day thats my view of which only I have to suffer from [well you have to suffer reading it but thats it]

Nightwish

Independence fairly irrelevant to me tbh. I dont pay for stuff just to be independent. I am as independent as a 24 year old adult should be, as opposed to a 24 year old female.

echosound

Iago wrote: »

I'm not sure I get this mentality at all.

Surely if you're in a relationship where you have respect and love, changing your surname wouldn't suddenly change that to him having dominance over you?

Also, the idea that your identity is a by product of your name is a strange one. Surely your identity is made up of all the elements of your personality that make you who you are? None of that changes if you change your surname.

Do you really believe that people will treat or react to you any differently if you became Jane Smith instead of Jane Bellamy?

Would agree 100% with this ^^ Well put.

Also - I'd say I was 100% independent: I do not feel the need to *prove* how independent or not I am to others, especially not in the context of being an "independent woman" as opposed to an independent individual.

I am happy with how I am/how I lead my life and if others feel the need to try and judge me or pigeonhole me into some category, that's their problem, not mine. If people want to perceive me in a certain light or under a certain definition, fine, they can eff off and think that, even if it's none of their business either way what I do. I don't need validation.

I could care less if people thought I was a sheltered little submissive cooing dependent wifey, or at the other extreme end of the scale a strident shouty domineering b*tch of a man-hating feminazi, all that matters is I know my own mind and what my own happiness entails, and am perfectly comfortable with my life.

takola

I'm a bit like Narco, Not sure how to explain the point I want to make but I'll give it a go.

I live with my SO, Things aren't necessarily 50/50 at all times. We get paid at different times (Me monthly, him weekly) so we tend to split things up. I pay the big things at the end of the month and he'll get things on a weekly basis. Neither of us would ever really argue about money and you'd only ever here us mention it if we're teasing each other (I paid the rent so you can go on and get out of my house etc etc). It would never be serious. Some months I could pay less or he could pay less. It's just the way things pan out. I'm not one of these people that HAVE to pay for everything myself. I'm comfortable to let him pay for things if I can't afford it or it works out better. That doesn't mean I'll pocket my money and let him shell out for everything either though!

I do depend (Not sure if depend is the right word there really) on him for quite a bit. I'm aware of it. I think it comes with being in a relationship. Especially when you live together. You have to depend on them. Give and take etc etc. If you're in a relationship and it does break up it's probably going to take some time for you to get used to being alone and completely self sufficient again if you know what I mean?

I do see myself as independent. I have my job, my own friends. I do need quite a bit of time to myself and I do my own thing for the most part. Some people do see me as a loner I guess but it doesn't and never has bothered me. He has his own life and I'm not a part of some of it and I'm comfortable enough with that. I don't mind being introduced to people as his girlfriend or tak etc etc. I'm fine with the idea of taking his name (I probably will do) because I am my own person and changing my surname will not have any effect on that. I don't see why it would have any effect on anyone tbh. In saying that you will never ever hear me introduce myself as "Mrs. John Ryan" because I absolutely hate that.

So I guess my point is that yes I do see myself as independent. But I'm fine with depending on other people too if I need to and would never view that as a bad or weak thing. I'm confident that if it all fell apart tomorrow I could take care of myself and I would be fine.

Post turned out to be 10 times longer than I'd intended but I think I've explained what I mean ok.

Pyjamarama

takola wrote: »

So I guess my point is that yes I do see myself as independent. But I'm fine with depending on other people too if I need to and would never view that as a bad or weak thing. I'm confident that if it all fell apart tomorrow I could take care of myself and I would be fine.

Exactly! I live with the OH, we split stuff 50/50, we're both there for each other but I don't think we're dependent on one another in an unhealthy way! I've always been able to spend time on my own, go to the cinema by myself if there's a something I wana see and coped with stuff on my own. It can be nice to have someone to share that stuff with when you're in a relationship but I could definately be 'independent' and cope by myself.

On the self-suffiency thing, I pay my rent, bills etc don't have to ask parents for money. Honestly would hate to be in a position like that. I'm sensible with my money and still have money left over at the end of the month unlike a lot of people I know so see myself as completely self-sufficient.

Someone brought up the taking your OH name thing again - I personally wouldn't but would compromise with a double barrell (wouldn't give my kids double-barrell as don't want them to get beaten up at school!!) as it's easier for paperwork and I think it would upset my OH if I didn't! It's not that I think my name is integral to my identity but I just don't see why I should HAVE to give it up. I am not a different person just because I am married and having both names shows you are part of both families. I think it's more about losing your family identity rather than your personal identity (and no I don't come from a well-to-do family I just think my family name is a part of me!!)
It's nothing got to do with what people would think of me if I changed my name, it's just my personal opinion!! Also the Mrs John Smith thing would enrage me so think the double barrell thing would help avoid that!

cuckoo

This is an interesting thread!

I'm currently single, and wonder if perhaps i've become too independent...

I live by myself and support myself, and wouldn't have it any other way as i love having the 'me time', but it can be difficult sometimes to let people in. Especially in my home, i'm not a house proud freak, but i do have things arranged a certain way and it is my zone, so i can be a little twitcy about people moving stuff around. It takes a lot of trust for me to let someone into my space.

And, sometimes i think i can be a little off putting to men who might be more used to being 'needed', i got very frustrated in a previous relationship trying to explain that 'no, i don't need you to change lightbulbs/put out the bins/lift heavy things'. He admitted himself that he was a little old fashioned, and wanted to be needed to do man things to feel needed, if that makes sense.

Many times i would say that what i wanted was affection and hugs, and that i didn't need him - i need oxygen, food and water, and i liked him!

tallaght01

Most people are focussing on independence in terms of finance, or name or friends.

The truly "independent" woman is one who has "independent thought". ie it's dreadful to see women having the same opinions as their boyfriend on everything, just because they worship their partner so much, they adopt their views. or sometimes because their partner is so dominant that views are imposed on them.

I love meeting a girl who can argue about politics or world affairs, and has her own opinions on stuff. Not just populist "yea i hate america and george bush, and i don't eat nestle products because they're bad people". But, if a girl has her own, well informed ideas on what happens in the world, I'm hooked
However, an independent woman won't care what I think lol

Crumble Froo

tallaght01 wrote: »

Most people are focussing on independence in terms of finance, or name or friends.

The truly "independent" woman is one who has "independent thought". ie it's dreadful to see women having the same opinions as their boyfriend on everything, just because they worship their partner so much, they adopt their views. or sometimes because their partner is so dominant that views are imposed on them.

finally! someone who could say waht i was trying to but failed!
independent thought! there you go!

thankyou tallaght01!

jezza

I'd think I'm independant- or pig headed.
I don't having to rely on people and to be frank, I don't trust them enough not to throw whatever back into my face. That goes for boyfriends/best friends.
If something happens, I prefer to deal with it on my own.

McGinty

think you can have couples that kind merge into one being [and only get you one b-day gift between them cheap bastards] but its one being thats equal parts of both of them.

Lol, that really bugs me or when you are out with a couple, you buy them each a drink, the husband/boyfriend buys the next drink and because the wife/girlfriend does not have her own money, you have to buy the next round, which really used to piss me off, so I now tell couples I am buying my own drinks and they can buy their own, this two to one is a cop out.

On a more serious note, I believe I am independant in thought and lifestyle, I have lived alone (raising a child) for a number of years and I cannot imagine how I would cope living with a man now, it seems a nice idea in theory but in reality I think it scares me half to death. I agree with you cuckoo

And, sometimes i think i can be a little off putting to men who might be more used to being 'needed', i got very frustrated in a previous relationship trying to explain that 'no, i don't need you to change lightbulbs/put out the bins/lift heavy things'. He admitted himself that he was a little old fashioned, and wanted to be needed to do man things to feel needed, if that makes sense.

I have often had dates and the man is trying to figure out how I would need him. However, I hate admitting this but I think I can get emotionally needy with men I get close to and it is something I am working on at the moment because I don't want to be like that so I've been completely single for some time. Finally what really bugs me is when you are out, you get talking to a nice man, he asks are you single and I say yes, and they say why, how come you are single. What is that about? And why ask such a question, and I can never answer it. Has anyone else had that?

panda100

tallaght01 wrote: »

Most people are focussing on independence in terms of finance, or name or friends.

Ive noted this too.All the posts thus far have been based on financial independence,which while important doesnt make u an 'independant' women.
First of,when I speak of an independant women I dont talk of it in the destiny childs sense. Having more money than your partner doesnt empower you as a female and a women. I also dont agree with any of this pussycat doll 'I dont need a man ' nonsense. A truly confident.liberated female will realise that Its nice to have company of the opposite sex.

The idea of an independant female is one that is not just confident but satisfied and happy with who and where she is in life.
While Im independant in my thoughts and ideals I often feel pressured by Irish society,in many aspects of my life. I feel pressured to be succesful financially (which this thread has reinforced!), pressure to look good, pressure to have a boyfriend,pressure to be the most popular. Somedays I give into these pressures and feel a bit down/bad about myself for having achieved almost none of those things.But then I realise that this is only what Irish society dictates me to be and I realise that Im happy being just me and thats when I feel like an independant women

echosound

panda100 wrote: »

Ive noted this too.All the posts thus far have been based on financial independence,which while important doesnt make u an 'independant' women.
First of,when I speak of an independant women I dont talk of it in the destiny childs sense. Having more money than your partner doesnt empower you as a female and a women. I also dont agree with any of this pussycat doll 'I dont need a man ' nonsense. A truly confident.liberated female will realise that Its nice to have company of the opposite sex.

The idea of an independant female is one that is not just confident but satisfied and happy with who and where she is in life.
While Im independant in my thoughts and ideals I often feel pressured by Irish society,in many aspects of my life. I feel pressured to be succesful financially (which this thread has reinforced!), pressure to look good, pressure to have a boyfriend,pressure to be the most popular. Somedays I give into these pressures and feel a bit down/bad about myself for having achieved almost none of those things.But then I realise that this is only what Irish society dictates me to be and I realise that Im happy being just me and thats when I feel like an independant women

+1, Almost the exact same ideas I was trying to put across in my earlier post!

Pyjamarama

tallaght01 wrote: »

Most people are focussing on independence in terms of finance, or name or friends.

The truly "independent" woman is one who has "independent thought". ie it's dreadful to see women having the same opinions as their boyfriend on everything, just because they worship their partner so much, they adopt their views. or sometimes because their partner is so dominant that views are imposed on them.

I love meeting a girl who can argue about politics or world affairs, and has her own opinions on stuff. Not just populist "yea i hate america and george bush, and i don't eat nestle products because they're bad people". But, if a girl has her own, well informed ideas on what happens in the world, I'm hooked
However, an independent woman won't care what I think lol

I think I'm just so used to hanging around with females who think for themselves that this didn't even come into my head, it's always been a given for me. I hate people who won't give an opinion on anything. I always debate stuff with my OH and we have lots of differing views and that's the way we like it. Agreeing on everything would be extremely boring. Those couple that merge into the one person drive me crazy 'that's what we think etc', grr!

tallaght01

I have a mate who signs his texts and emails from him and his burd.

I mean, wtf?!!??

ztoical

panda100 wrote: »

Ive noted this too.All the posts thus far have been based on financial independence,which while important doesnt make u an 'independant' women.
First of,when I speak of an independant women I dont talk of it in the destiny childs sense. Having more money than your partner doesnt empower you as a female and a women. I also dont agree with any of this pussycat doll 'I dont need a man ' nonsense. A truly confident.liberated female will realise that Its nice to have company of the opposite sex.

The idea of an independant female is one that is not just confident but satisfied and happy with who and where she is in life.
While Im independant in my thoughts and ideals I often feel pressured by Irish society,in many aspects of my life. I feel pressured to be succesful financially (which this thread has reinforced!), pressure to look good, pressure to have a boyfriend,pressure to be the most popular. Somedays I give into these pressures and feel a bit down/bad about myself for having achieved almost none of those things.But then I realise that this is only what Irish society dictates me to be and I realise that Im happy being just me and thats when I feel like an independant women

+1

My last post on this topic was more focused on the taking the name issue but thats where this thread had originated from. I did say and do feel that independance does not equal money, thats being self sufficient in my eyes. I think its always greta to earn your own money and pay your own way but I also don't think there should be any stigma attached to getting some help from your parents or friends or the goverment when its needed [and I really stressed needed I'm not taking about people scamming money cus they couldn't be arsed working]

I don't even like the word independent all that much I'd rather be a strong person then an independent woman [mainly cus that stupid song comes into my head] I'm not the best at putting things into words [I could draw something but I'm behind on my deadlines already without adding extra jobs on] so I'll use an example of what being a strong person means to me:

My mum is a doctor, she moved to a mid size town in the middle of the country [about 25 odd years ago]. She set up her business and it started very small, only a couple of people coming to see her each week. She went to functions held by local business groups to introduce herself and get to know other people and she was told by many of these business people to not bother, she should be a house wife. There was no place in the town for another doctor and there was no way anyone would ever go to a female doctor.

This was the message she got again and again and it wasn't just from men, women told her the same. Some of there women were teachers in the secondary school I ended up going to, the very women telling me to go to college and make something of myself had told my mother she was wasting her time setting up her business in the town.

This wasn't something that happened over a week, it went on for the first 3 or 4 years she was working but she kept going. Ignored them, didn't try to argue or reason with them just worked her ass off and not only did she do well, she now has the largest doctors practise in the county.

Now I know attitudes have changed to women and work [thou they are still no equal in alot of places] but my point was that it would have been so easy to just go home and do nothing. We have a reversal of sorts now with women who want to stay home and be full time mums getting sh!t cus they should be out working. I feel it takes a strong person to do what they want to do and damn the people who try and put them down...hope some of that makes some sense.

Ginny

I suppose in my circle of friends I'm the most independent, as in, none of them have ever lived on their own. Some of their lives are very couple-centric, I actually think a good few of them spend way way too much time together, I don't think I could do that I need my space physically and mentally.
As for it being financial etc, I think being independent financially is they way people physically see you're independent, whereas individuals themselves see it more of a mental thing.
I'm covering both right now I'm phyiscally independent and mentally independent, but even while in a relationship I think I was a lot more independently minded then any other girl in my group.

cuckoo

narco wrote: »

finally! someone who could say waht i was trying to but failed!
independent thought! there you go!

thankyou tallaght01!

Ah, but surely independent thought is something that can be taken for granted with all us smart, opinionated boardsie women?

Firetrap

Being independent in my eyes isn't necessarily financial independence but the ability to do things without having to get help from other people. I don't make any big deal about it - it's the way Mr & Mrs Firetrap brought me up. I know of women who can't bear to do things like have a meal in a restaurant by themselves or go to the cinema or shopping. Lads do these things all the time and nobody bats an eyelid.

tallaght01

To play devil's advocate here for a moment......

Lots of women on here saying they're independent and strong. Don't need a man to do things for them, and are self reliant.

BUT, it always strikes me that women like stronger men, a but rougher round the edges. Or alternatively, guys with lots of cash.

Not all women, of course. However, my frame of reference is reasonbly good. In 9 years of university, I met a LOT of nerds

No matter how funny and caring they were, they never got the girls. Gilrs talk about "intelligence" in a guy, but the guys in the physics class were not pulling the hotties lol

Whereas most of my friends/social group from back home were a bit rougher. Guys I knew who were total ****, but were pretty rough round the edges were almost invariably more successful with the ladies than the guys who were in the chess club at uni

I always took that to be an evolutionary throwback to times when women needed a strong man to provide for them. Women like strong guys over week guys. they also like guys who can provide a good standard of living.

But how do we reconcile this with the tales of independence we've read in the thread above.

If soeone were to argue that a self sufficient, independent woman will only need a decent human being for companionship, then why does the type of guy who is successful with women not belie this?

Just a though, not neccesarily my opinion.

Obviously, this doesn't relate to me, as I'm perfect enough that I give the best of both worlds

Crumble Froo

this is a very very interesting post. i himmed and hawed about replying, as the answer is going to be quite personal to me. but anyway...

tallaght01 wrote: »

To play devil's advocate here for a moment......

Lots of women on here saying they're independent and strong. Don't need a man to do things for them, and are self reliant.

BUT, it always strikes me that women like stronger men, a but rougher round the edges. Or alternatively, guys with lots of cash.

i think, for the most part, it's about a balance. i can only speak for myself, but i would say that i am quite independent and strong. and i can say that i dont need a man. but.. maybe this is just due to a bit of a ****ed up past on my part, but yes, i do like a strong man, someone who can look after me and makes me feel like i am loved/wanted, and who would 'protect' me. that probably sounds really weird. it looks really weird to me there in written words, but that's kinda just how it is for me.

as for money... well, my fella's more broke than me, so im pretty sure i dont come in under the 'guys with lots of cash' category.

Not all women, of course. However, my frame of reference is reasonbly good. In 9 years of university, I met a LOT of nerds

No matter how funny and caring they were, they never got the girls. Gilrs talk about "intelligence" in a guy, but the guys in the physics class were not pulling the hotties lol

the guys who are kinda destined to only ever be loved as freinds?
yeah, i've known a few of them in my time. gone out with a couple, actually, but obviously, never quite worked out. i think for most of it, it's intelligence+persoanlity+looks. looks are very very subjective, though.

Whereas most of my friends/social group from back home were a bit rougher. Guys I knew who were total ****, but were pretty rough round the edges were almost invariably more successful with the ladies than the guys who were in the chess club at uni

what about relationshipwise? i've seen the wanker guys go from girl to girl, nothing ever lasting any sort of length of time, only to see the 'nerds' meet someone and for the relationship to go on for aaaaaaaaages.


i think, at the end of it, what' essential is a balance of all the attributes, and the girls' personal taste.

cuckoo

tallaght01 wrote: »

BUT, it always strikes me that women like stronger men, a but rougher round the edges. Or alternatively, guys with lots of cash.

Not all women, of course. However, my frame of reference is reasonbly good. In 9 years of university, I met a LOT of nerds

No matter how funny and caring they were, they never got the girls. Gilrs talk about "intelligence" in a guy, but the guys in the physics class were not pulling the hotties lol

I must be a statistical aberration then as i swoon for guys who can do things with equations, and have dated them in the past. Oh, dear, maybe i'm not a 'hottie'?!?

Although, for full disclosure, i still have my physics soc hoodie

Like narco said, how many of the 'players' have long term relationships?

But, to advocate devilishly myself, i do like that when a guy's arms are around me they feel strong.....but due to biology and stuff 90%+ of men's arms would feel strong to me.

tallaght01

cuckoo wrote: »

Like narco said, how many of the 'players' have long term relationships?

.

Fair points, both of you.

Do you think (coz I do lol) that the "players" have less long term relationships because they don't want them.

They usually tend to be the ones ending the "acquaintance", for want of a better word. You don't see them getting dumped so often, or am I wrong?

Whereas (and tell me if I'm being too harsh here, but I think it might be true...) the physics guys tend to fall head over heels easier once they get any female attention, so are less likely to dump you.

Am I being too harsh?

Nevyn

Why is it an issue ?

Surely everyone is looking for a partner that is an equal, another grown up who is in control of thier own life.

tallaght01

It's an "issue" becuase I think it exists as a phenomenon.

It's not a personal issue for me, as I'm happily dysfunctional

But, in the context of the thread, it's a question that begs asking.

I think women prefer men who are "macho" (again a word I hate-smacks of 1980s cinema ) than guys who are wimps.

Why this would be the case, when "independence" should negate the need for a strong man, is a fair question.

Nevyn

becasue it is not that long ago women were dependant on thier father or husbands, fathers 'kept' thier daughters until they married a man who 'kept' them and footed the bill.

I think every preson should strive to be independant and in charge of thier own lives.

Macho is not quiet the term for it in my book.

Also many don't get the diffeence between dominant and domineering.

ztoical

tallaght01 wrote: »

I always took that to be an evolutionary throwback to times when women needed a strong man to provide for them. Women like strong guys over week guys. they also like guys who can provide a good standard of living.

Its always interesting when evolution is brought up cus in alot of animal structures the females looks after everything and provide for the males. Even with our close relatives like chimps and bonobos the females are at least equal provide. In evolutionary terms women would be attracted to men for their genetic material ie does he have the goods to not just give me a baby but a healthy baby.

there was an interesting medical piece a year or two ago [don't ask me to find it I will have to go through a million magazines] about a study that showed women would be attracted to a man with very masculine features for mating [this is the wording they had used] as that would produce a child more likely to live and attracted to men with softer features as long term partners to raise children [I'm assuming those would the children from the big masculine man] Of course this is all in our subconscious - take that whatever way you want to.

I can't speak for other women only for myself and wither a guy is strong or rich or whatever has never been a factor but then I'm not a very good girly girl - I read comics and watch horror films and normally end up with the guys who are into those things too.

tallaght01

Thaedydal wrote: »

becasue it is not that long ago women were dependant on thier father or husbands, fathers 'kept' thier daughters until they married a man who 'kept' them and footed the bill.

I agree this may be the reason. But what i'm trying to get at is the reason why girls still seem attracted to a strong, possibly father-figure type guy, nowadays.


Ztoical, I take your point about evolution. However, we don't share the same evolutionary pathway to the other species you mention. In human evolution, we depended on the strength of the male to a large extent. Strong males survived.

Having said that, as we've never conclusively proved the theory of evolution, you can argue that we can't rely on that argument.

What i would say is that evolutionary studies rely on people drawing their own conclusions from raw data.

I know the study you're talking about. You say, for example, that women were attarcated to stronger men to give them a baby as "as that would produce a child more likely to live ".

In reality the study showed that women were attracted to stronger men to give them a baby, and the authors suggested that it might be because they would produce a child more likely to live.


We always have to be careful with evolutionary studies.

Thaedydal

Thaedydal wrote: »

becasue it is not that long ago women were dependant on thier father or husbands, fathers 'kept' thier daughters until they married a man who 'kept' them and footed the bill.

That simply isn't true in an Irish context, most people lived off the fat of the land, families worked as teams to keep themselves.

Tallaght,

First of all Irish men macho! Who do you think you’re kidding!
If there is a shower of mamies boys on the planet, they are lost in the amazon and they have given into the oedipus complex.

I'm a tremendously independent woman, I'm the kind of woman you could drop on a mountain in Kazakhstan with a water bottle and I'd be too busy relishing the challenge of finding my way home, to start fantasing about chopping your balls off.
The unhappy side effect of this outlook is that almost nobody in my life sees a purpose in offering me the tiniest bit of support, emotional or physical. People haven't even the grace to worry about me.

Relationships and life partnerships aren't just about company. The main purpose is to face the world and its challenges as a team, to help each other achieve your goals and to offer support in adversity.
When the **** hits the fan at 3 am, I want to have someone reliable, who will come be there for me, weather I need them or not.
And who will let me do the same for them.
That’s the kind of person I want to be a father to my children.

I also have spent more than my fair share of time with nerds who can't get lucky.
Do you know what their problem is poor communication skills and/or frighteningly dull personalities.
Players have a salemans approach to the dating game. They knock on more doors, and they put more effort into winning you over.
Why wouldn't they be more successful!

panda100

tallaght01 wrote: »

Not all women, of course. However, my frame of reference is reasonbly good. In 9 years of university, I met a LOT of nerds

No matter how funny and caring they were, they never got the girls. Gilrs talk about "intelligence" in a guy, but the guys in the physics class were not pulling the hotties lol

Having spent 7 years in uni I can honestly say confidently that the exact same applies to men.The quiet,intelligent but dowdy and plain girl never gets the guys .Its always the gorgeous,buxom,pretty girls who have mens undivided attention even If there are complete bitches and as dense as a stack of plates.
Does this make men any less 'independant'?

Yes women like strong men,just as men like pretty women.Both sexes are at fault.It has nothing to do with evolution etc but a warped sense of priorities from both males and females.
If anything I think its societys fault,I genrally blame everything on society as a socialist Its my job! From an early age in fairytales we are made to believe that its a strong alpha male that will come in and rescue us. For men,its the pretty damsel in distress who need rescuing. These types of messages are constant throughout our lives brainwashing us into beliving that for a male to be a male he must be strong,muscular,confident and support us weak females in our hour of need.

tallaght01

moonbaby wrote:

The main purpose is to face the world and its challenges as a team, to help each other achieve your goals and to offer support in adversity.
When the **** hits the fan at 3 am, I want to have someone reliable, who will come be there for me, weather I need them or not.

I disagree with the above. I think you're looking on relationships in a functional sense

panda100 wrote: »

Having spent 7 years in uni I can honestly say confidently that the exact same applies to men.The quiet,intelligent but dowdy and plain girl never gets the guys .Its always the gorgeous,buxom,pretty girls who have mens undivided attention even If there are complete bitches and as dense as a stack of plates.
Does this make men any less 'independant'?

Yes women like strong men,just as men like pretty women.Both sexes are at fault.It has nothing to do with evolution etc but a warped sense of priorities from both males and females.
.

Totally agree.

I've trotted out the old stereotypes often enough in my time, about how looks don't matter, and it's all about personality. But I've dated a reasonable amount of women where, if we're being honest, that doesn't apply. Same way the funniest guys in the world, if they're ugly, don't get the hot ladies, regardless of all the talk about how important a sense of humour is.

I agree, the chess club ladies don't get the guys either. Hotter ladies will get the hotter guys, as a rule of thumb.There's no point in me trying to deny that.I will admit, most guys don't like the bolshy "I don't need a guy" personality, because we like to do a bit of the big man provider jazz

But, I raised the issue in relation to women, as this is the ladies lounge....and I never claimed not to need women

.

tallaght01

tallaght01 wrote: »

I disagree with the above. I think you're looking on relationships in a functional sense

Those words don't make any sense to me, what aspects of relationships don't serve a function?

We are talking about independance and its affect on relationship. So my comment pertains to LTRs.

ellenmelon

i think im an independant woman..just not as much as id like to be at the moment, with my full on college schedule (9-5 on a good day, 9-10 during rehearsals etc) im unable to work as regularly as i would like so im more reliant on my partner than i would wish but this year will hopefully be different.