Lacey Promo In ROH/Women In Wrestling

Mr.Nice Guy · 10-01-2008 5:18am #1

Lita Forever wrote: »

In this video Lacey cuts an intense promo on Tammy 'Sunny' Sytch in ROH. The promo is towards the end of the video at around the 7 minute mark. Lacey pretty much sums up the feelings of a lot of female wrestling fans, yours truly included.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzGvpDQvlBY

Yawn. Pure BS and a disgraceful rant towards someone who proved that women could be just as popular as the guys. Does this Laney, Lawrie, Lacey whatever her name is (doesn't matter) have the respect of someone like Bret Hart? Uh, no. Sunny got over through charisma, not just her looks, and actually has one of the most knowledgeable minds in the business as it relates to the history of the industry.

If you want to blame someone for the surgical enhancement prevalent in the industy then blame Vince McMahon. Besides that, perhaps the most respected woman in the industry is Trish Stratus and she was enhanced as it gets.

Furthermore we all know this bigmouthed woman would gladly take a WWE contract from Vince McMahon if it came tomorrow and most likely surgical enhancements too if the opportunity presented itself. Let's see how true to this promo this woman will be years from now.

In conclusion, Sunny warrants respect. This muppet spouting nonsense wishes she could have half the success that Sunny has had.

Fozzy · 10-01-2008 5:35am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yawn. Pure BS and a disgraceful rant towards someone who proved that women could be just as popular as the guys. Does this Laney, Lawrie, Lacey whatever her name is (doesn't matter) have the respect of someone like Bret Hart? Uh, no. Sunny got over through charisma, not just her looks, and actually has one of the most knowledgeable minds in the business as it relates to the history of the industry.

If you want to blame someone for the surgical enhancement prevalent in the industy then blame Vince McMahon. Besides that, perhaps the most respected woman in the industry is Trish Stratus and she was enhanced as it gets.

Furthermore we all know this bigmouthed woman would gladly take a WWE contract from Vince McMahon if it came tomorrow and most likely surgical enhancements too if the opportunity presented itself. Let's see how true to this promo this woman will be years from now.

In conclusion, Sunny warrants respect. This muppet spouting nonsense wishes she could have half the success that Sunny has had.

Lacey's a heel, don't take it so seriously

Lita Forever · 10-01-2008 12:11pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yawn. Pure BS and a disgraceful rant towards someone who proved that women could be just as popular as the guys. Does this Laney, Lawrie, Lacey whatever her name is (doesn't matter) have the respect of someone like Bret Hart? Uh, no. Sunny got over through charisma, not just her looks, and actually has one of the most knowledgeable minds in the business as it relates to the history of the industry.

If you want to blame someone for the surgical enhancement prevalent in the industy then blame Vince McMahon. Besides that, perhaps the most respected woman in the industry is Trish Stratus and she was enhanced as it gets.

Furthermore we all know this bigmouthed woman would gladly take a WWE contract from Vince McMahon if it came tomorrow and most likely surgical enhancements too if the opportunity presented itself. Let's see how true to this promo this woman will be years from now.

In conclusion, Sunny warrants respect. This muppet spouting nonsense wishes she could have half the success that Sunny has had.

Oh, where to begin.. Now in all fairness this was a scripted promo by a heel, it wasn't real in case you didn't know, lol. In real life, I'm sure Lacey respects what Tammy has accomplished. There was definitely a sense of truth in what Lacey was saying..but it wasn't necessarily directed at Tammy. The sentiments of the promo were directed at certain wrestling higher ups who have made it so that no matter how good women are in the ring they'll never be seen as more then tits and ass by some people, and that's sad. It would be stupid to blame Tammy for this..it's not her fault she was successful. The only one blaming her is heel Lacey in the scripted promo.

Fair enough Tammy has a good mind for the business and from what I read in her interviews she seems like a good person. But in my opinion her success was largely due to her looks. I don't think most of the male audience cared about her charisma to be honest. I'd be surprised if half of them even realized the woman could speak.

The surgical enhanced thing doesn't bother me at all really. It is sad that women feel they have to alter their bodies to achieve success. It's a shame but what can ya do?

Also FYI, Lacey has gone on record as saying she does not want to work for the WWE. She is a wrestler and wishes to be taken seriously as such. She's not willing to compromise her gaols and values just because it's the WWE. The fact she has stated this numerous times kind of shoots down your theory that she'd gladly take a contract. if someone wants to work somewhere then the last thing they do is state they don't want to work there. That'd be kind of stupid, no?

You seem to think that just because the WWE is the biggest game in town everyone wants to work their and would sell their soul to get there. Not true. WWE might be the biggest game in town, but it's certainly not the only one. Real women's wrestling is making a resurgence. Women are wrestling solely because they have a passion for it, not just the money or fame that comes with it. Thank god for women like Lacey, who ensure there'll always be an alternative for fans that tire of the T & A bull **** churned out by the WWE.

As regards to your last comment about Lacey wishing she had half the success Sunny had; I honestly think Lacey is perfectly happy with what she's achieved in her career so far. She wants to be remembered for her wrestling, not her looks. So far she's doing a good job of that. As much as I respect what Tammy has achieved, and really I do, I respect women like Lacey 10 times more. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

flahavaj · 10-01-2008 8:23pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yawn. Pure BS and a disgraceful rant towards someone who proved that women could be just as popular as the guys. Does this Laney, Lawrie, Lacey whatever her name is (doesn't matter) have the respect of someone like Bret Hart? Uh, no. Sunny got over through charisma, not just her looks, and actually has one of the most knowledgeable minds in the business as it relates to the history of the industry.

If you want to blame someone for the surgical enhancement prevalent in the industy then blame Vince McMahon. Besides that, perhaps the most respected woman in the industry is Trish Stratus and she was enhanced as it gets.

Furthermore we all know this bigmouthed woman would gladly take a WWE contract from Vince McMahon if it came tomorrow and most likely surgical enhancements too if the opportunity presented itself. Let's see how true to this promo this woman will be years from now.

In conclusion, Sunny warrants respect. This muppet spouting nonsense wishes she could have half the success that Sunny has had.

Dude its wrestling, it was a storyline!

You don't really think the Undertaker comes back from the dead every six months do you!?

Ah why am I bothering, its only MNG on his usual ROH wind up!;)

Mr.Nice Guy · 10-01-2008 11:41pm

Fozzy wrote:

Lacey's a heel, don't take it so seriously

I get that but apparently it sums up the feelings of lots of female wrestling fans including Lita Forever which if true, I find absurd. :eek:

Lita Forever wrote: »

Oh, where to begin.. Now in all fairness this was a scripted promo by a heel, it wasn't real in case you didn't know, lol. In real life, I'm sure Lacey respects what Tammy has accomplished. There was definitely a sense of truth in what Lacey was saying..but it wasn't necessarily directed at Tammy. The sentiments of the promo were directed at certain wrestling higher ups who have made it so that no matter how good women are in the ring they'll never be seen as more then tits and ass by some people, and that's sad. It would be stupid to blame Tammy for this..it's not her fault she was successful. The only one blaming her is heel Lacey in the scripted promo.

The sentiments of the promo were directed solely at Tammy Sytch and I didn't see you make any distinction in your post. You have done so now though which is pleasing to see.

Lita Forever wrote:

Fair enough Tammy has a good mind for the business and from what I read in her interviews she seems like a good person. But in my opinion her success was largely due to her looks. I don't think most of the male audience cared about her charisma to be honest. I'd be surprised if half of them even realized the woman could speak.

This is bollocks. Do you see Kelly Kelly getting the response that Sunny got? Or Maria? Did Stacy Keibler? You could make the case that these women are just as good looking as Sunny was in her prime if not moreso and yet they didn't get over to her degree. If you think you can get over on simply looks then you're no better than the higher ups in WWE who you seem to oppose so much!

Lita Forever wrote:

Also FYI, Lacey has gone on record as saying she does not want to work for the WWE. She is a wrestler and wishes to be taken seriously as such. She's not willing to compromise her gaols and values just because it's the WWE. The fact she has stated this numerous times kind of shoots down your theory that she'd gladly take a contract. if someone wants to work somewhere then the last thing they do is state they don't want to work there. That'd be kind of stupid, no?

God, how naive are you? Do you realise this is the wrestling business? How many people have sworn never to go to (or back) to WWE and yet always done so? You're telling me this woman would turn down an opportunity to make it big on the biggest wrestling company on the planet? Give over.

Lita Forever wrote:

You seem to think that just because the WWE is the biggest game in town everyone wants to work their and would sell their soul to get there. Not true. WWE might be the biggest game in town, but it's certainly not the only one. Real women's wrestling is making a resurgence. Women are wrestling solely because they have a passion for it, not just the money or fame that comes with it. Thank god for women like Lacey, who ensure there'll always be an alternative for fans that tire of the T & A bull **** churned out by the WWE.

Wow I guess you are that naive! The fact that Bret Hart was willing to work with McMahon again shows that anything is possible. Hell just look at Hogan in the past month. The indy scene is filled with these nobodies proclaiming how they'll never go to WWE and yet when the opportunity comes around, more often than not they take it. Even in TNA with the VKM crap - months later Road Dogg came out with comments saying he'd welcome a move there.

But don't let me stop you! Put all your faith in this gal! But trust me if WWE come knocking she will be out of there like lightning just like Punk, Cabana, London, Kendrick, Noble... etc.

Lita Forever wrote:

As regards to your last comment about Lacey wishing she had half the success Sunny had; I honestly think Lacey is perfectly happy with what she's achieved in her career so far. She wants to be remembered for her wrestling, not her looks. So far she's doing a good job of that. As much as I respect what Tammy has achieved, and really I do, I respect women like Lacey 10 times more. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Fair enough. You're entitled to your views. My view is that this gal is a nobody and anyone who takes that promo as gospel is very misguided and doing a talented lady a huge disservice.

flahavaj · 11-01-2008 12:07am

By the way has everyone forgotten that Sunny was a crackwhore who ran a porn website for years to fund her habit, so lets not get too carried away with the role model crap!

Lita Forever · 11-01-2008 12:16am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I get that but apparently it sums up the feelings of lots of female wrestling fans including Lita Forever which if true, I find absurd. :eek:

Well it certainly sums up my feeling on how women's wrestling is presented in North America these days, mainly by the WWE.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The sentiments of the promo were directed solely at Tammy Sytch and I didn't see you make any distinction in your post. You have done so now though which is pleasing to see.

Yeah, I should have been clearer about that in my original post, sorry. Though on camera the sentiments were directed at Tammy, fans who follow RoH or Shimmer got who they were really directed at. Why do you think the crowd was popping? Not out of disrespect for Tammy who was playing along, but popping as they got the real message behind it.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

This is bollocks. Do you see Kelly Kelly getting the response that Sunny got? Or Maria? Did Stacy Keibler? You could make the case that these women are just as good looking as Sunny was in her prime if not moreso and yet they didn't get over to her degree. If you think you can get over on simply looks then you're no better than the higher ups in WWE who you seem to oppose so much!

This is simply. This is 2007, wrestling is overly saturated with women that are sex symbols. It's not new anymore, the crowd don't care. However back in 1996, it was new. There were no women portrayed as sex symbols in WWE then. Sunny was the first, so of course she was hugely over. Even when Sable and Marlena joined the ranks they weren't classed as sex symbols for a couple of years so Sunny had a lock on sex symbol status for a while with no competition. So of course she was going to get a response.

Actually it's obvious to me that some women are only over because of their looks. Case in point, Maria? She's over with you and quiet a few fans. So why is this so MNG? Do you enjoy her riveting promo skills? Her wrestling skills? Or just maybe it's her stunning looks? Hmm...tough call.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

God, how naive are you? Do you realise this is the wrestling business? How many people have sworn never to go to (or back) to WWE and yet always done so? You're telling me this woman would turn down an opportunity to make it big on the biggest wrestling company on the planet? Give over.

I'm not naive at all. I for my own opinions based on what I've seen or heard from a person. I don't think "oh most people have done this, so this person CERTAINLY would do the same?" I judge what I think that person would do based on what I know or hear from them.

Really how closed minded and one dimensional is your thought process if you think everyone in this world is a sheep? Just because most people would do something it doesn't mean they're aren't some people out there that are individuals. In fact Gail Kim was offered another contract from the WWE just before she debuted in TNA and turned it down. But I guess you think this is " bollocks" to? Right, whatever.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Wow I guess you are that naive! The fact that Bret Hart was willing to work with McMahon again shows that anything is possible. Hell just look at Hogan in the past month. The indy scene is filled with these nobodies proclaiming how they'll never go to WWE and yet when the opportunity comes around, more often than not they take it. Even in TNA with the VKM crap - months later Road Dogg came out with comments saying he'd welcome a move there.

But don't let me stop you! Put all your faith in this gal! But trust me if WWE come knocking she will be out of there like lightning just like Punk, Cabana, London, Kendrick, Noble... etc.

Fair enough. You're entitled to your views. My view is that this gal is a nobody and anyone who takes that promo as gospel is very misguided and doing a talented lady a huge disservice.

I think you're taking it too seriously. As I said, the comments weren't really directed at Sunny. The whole point I was making was that there was a message that was behind that promo not directed at Tammy, that was why fans enjoyed it. For her part, Tammy doesn't seem too bothered does she? She played along with it and got a couple of digs in at Lacey at the end. I'm sure she didn't feel there was any disservice when she got her paycheck from the event either.

Fozzy · 11-01-2008 1:07am

Just moving this to a new thread so as not to take away from the videos

Fozzy · 11-01-2008 1:16am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

But trust me if WWE come knocking she will be out of there like lightning just like Punk, Cabana, London, Kendrick, Noble... etc.

None of those guys ever said that they don't want to work for WWE

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The indy scene is filled with these nobodies proclaiming how they'll never go to WWE and yet when the opportunity comes around, more often than not they take it.

Can you name any?

From hearing and reading interviews with Lacey, I really doubt that she has any plans of ever going to WWE. She sounds like she'd be much happier looking after horses

And as an aside, I think Lacey is the hottest woman in wrestling today!

rossie1977 · 11-01-2008 1:36am

Lita Forever wrote: »

Actually it's obvious to me that some women are only over because of their looks. Case in point, Maria? She's over with you and quiet a few fans. So why is this so MNG? Do you enjoy her riveting promo skills? Her wrestling skills? Or just maybe it's her stunning looks? Hmm...tough call.

personally i cannot speak for MNG but for me Maria plays her role as the dumb interviewer/valet very well and it was this role which caught my eye first

Looks have always played a big part in male wrestling in the WWE too, would batista/cena/michaels etc be as over with the female fans if they looked like snitsky or bastion booger???

Lita Forever · 11-01-2008 1:55am

rossie1977 wrote: »

Looks have always played a big part in male wrestling in the WWE too, would batista/cena/michaels etc be as over with the female fans if they looked like snitsky or bastion booger???

While I will agree to you that looks do play a part in male wrestling it's nowhere near as close to the level it plays in female wrestling. I'm not going to enjoy I don't enjoy looking at Cena & Orton etc. Not at all. It can be argued that most of Cena's popularity with females is based on his looks. But if you look at the bigger picture the importance of looks in male wrestling doesn't come close to the female side. Not at all.

The main reason for this is the WWE audience is predominantly straight males, so that's going to be the audience the WWE caters to first and foremost. You don't see males in stripper matches, beauty contests, dance offs..best body contests (well, not since the days of Warrior & Rude, anyways)

A females looks is of far more importance then a males in wrestling. The fact most of the males are good looking doesn't hurt but it is not a prerequisite. Regardless of their looks, Cena, HBK & Batista would have been pushed anyways based on in ring skills, promo skills, and how over they are with the male audience. . I can't say the same about Trish, Candice etc, if they didn't have their looks.

Mr.Nice Guy · 11-01-2008 3:06am

Lita Forever wrote: »

Yeah, I should have been clearer about that in my original post, sorry. Though on camera the sentiments were directed at Tammy, fans who follow RoH or Shimmer got who they were really directed at. Why do you think the crowd was popping? Not out of disrespect for Tammy who was playing along, but popping as they got the real message behind it.

It was using Tammy to get at the women in wrestling which is not fair. Like I said if you want to bemoan women's wrestling then your target ought to be Vince McMahon as he's the one who determines the direction it goes in. Also it seemed like they popped for Tammy at the end, not that I particulary give a sh*t what those fans think.

Lita Forever wrote:

This is simply. This is 2007, wrestling is overly saturated with women that are sex symbols. It's not new anymore, the crowd don't care. However back in 1996, it was new. There were no women portrayed as sex symbols in WWE then. Sunny was the first, so of course she was hugely over. Even when Sable and Marlena joined the ranks they weren't classed as sex symbols for a couple of years so Sunny had a lock on sex symbol status for a while with no competition. So of course she was going to get a response.

No you miss the point entirely. Sunny got over through mic skills and charisma because she could talk just as good as the guys, and better than a lot of them in fact. The reason Kelly Kelly can't get over to such a degree is because she can't talk for sh*t and has the personality of a plank. To say Sunny only got over on looks does her a big disservice. Can't believe I'm explaining to a girl that you need to be more than just T&A to be charismatic!

Lita Forever wrote:

Actually it's obvious to me that some women are only over because of their looks. Case in point, Maria? She's over with you and quiet a few fans. So why is this so MNG? Do you enjoy her riveting promo skills? Her wrestling skills? Or just maybe it's her stunning looks? Hmm...tough call.

Maria's not over solely on her looks. Her popularity is down to the fact she comes across as someone likeable. That's why kids and women seem to like her too. That is what charisma is about. Being likeable. As rossie said she performs her role very well and I reckon could do more on the show if allowed. Actually I reckon she'd do well outside of the wrestling business (as I've stated before) and it's not the shallow part of me that thinks that because I'd hate to see her leave my TV screen.

Lita Forever wrote:

I'm not naive at all. I for my own opinions based on what I've seen or heard from a person. I don't think "oh most people have done this, so this person CERTAINLY would do the same?" I judge what I think that person would do based on what I know or hear from them.

Really how closed minded and one dimensional is your thought process if you think everyone in this world is a sheep? Just because most people would do something it doesn't mean they're aren't some people out there that are individuals. In fact Gail Kim was offered another contract from the WWE just before she debuted in TNA and turned it down. But I guess you think this is " bollocks" to? Right, whatever.

You are naive. You take this nobody's word as gospel even though bigger and more successful people in the wrestling world have been lured back to the arms of those in Stamford. The contract offered by Gail Kim could have been lowballed just like the one offered to the Dudleys (most likely the case).

In fact the girl in your username came back to WWE despite reports she was unhappy with how she was treated when she left in the first place. Wake up and realise that promises and vows count for sh*t in this industry.

Lita Forever wrote:

I think you're taking it too seriously. As I said, the comments weren't really directed at Sunny. The whole point I was making was that there was a message that was behind that promo not directed at Tammy, that was why fans enjoyed it. For her part, Tammy doesn't seem too bothered does she? She played along with it and got a couple of digs in at Lacey at the end. I'm sure she didn't feel there was any disservice when she got her paycheck from the event either.

You posted a comment wholeheartedly endorsing a promo in which Sunny/Tammy Sytch was labelled as the reason for the women in the wrestling business being required to be pretty and "enhanced". You claimed this promo represented how many people felt.

I then called you up on this and you backtracked your statement saying that this promo should actually NOT be taken as a swipe at Sunny (even though judging by your comments you seem to have something against the woman).

I take exception to somebody who seems a good person, who gave a lot to the industry and who has suffered some terrible times in her life being incorrectly and unfairly lambasted as the reason for women's wrestling being all about looks. This appeared to be your view in your original statement.

Fozzy wrote:

None of those guys ever said that they don't want to work for WWE

Doesn't matter. When the big leagues called they couldn't get out of there fast enough.

Fozzy wrote:

Can you name any?

Matt Hardy springs to mind. Worked the indies for what, a month (?), after vowing his eternal hatred for WWE and then couldn't wait to get back to WWE. Most of them however tend to be people who the WWE aren't actually interested in anyway, like, I imagine, this ROH girl.

Fozzy wrote:

From hearing and reading interviews with Lacey, I really doubt that she has any plans of ever going to WWE. She sounds like she'd be much happier looking after horses.

Looking after horses huh? Sure you don't mean asses? That would explain why she's in ROH.

Lita Forever wrote:

Regardless of their looks, Cena, HBK & Batista would have been pushed anyways based on in ring skills, promo skills, and how over they are with the male audience.

So you acknowledge that male wrestlers need more than looks to get over yet you feel the opposite is true for women? What tosh. Awesome Kong seems to be getting over nicely in TNA. Why is that do you reckon? They interested in larger ladies down in Florida perhaps? :rolleyes:

rossie1977 · 11-01-2008 3:11am

i disagree regarding batista, he was pushed because of his looks, body and the fact that he was best friends with triple h, his wrestling skills are well below average (and thats being nice, yes he had a few decent matches in 2007), batista's promo skills are awful imo. The guy to me is an enigma and really shouldn't have got over like he did.

if you watch the various documentaries on john cena circa 1999-2000 (there is bits of one on youtube taken from the discovery channel) all the experts were talking about his look and not his skills and how he would go far based on his body.

its a sad state of affairs for sure but looks and body will not get you to the top without some talent in either the mens or womens division; test and chris masters being the perfect examples. Stacy keibler murdered all the other WWE girls in the looks department yet she barely ever won a match, Carmella DeCesare is another example, an absolute stunner in comparison to people like trish or candice but how far did her looks get her in the WWE??

Fozzy · 11-01-2008 3:56am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

No you miss the point entirely. Sunny got over through mic skills and charisma because she could talk just as good as the guys, and better than a lot of them in fact. The reason Kelly Kelly can't get over to such a degree is because she can't talk for sh*t and has the personality of a plank. To say Sunny only got over on looks does her a big disservice. Can't believe I'm explaining to a girl that you need to be more than just T&A to be charismatic!

I think it does say something though that WWE didn't want her back on their show until she looked good. For years Sunny was overweight, yet it took less than two months after those photos of her popped up on the internet recently for WWE to get her on tv

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Doesn't matter. When the big leagues called they couldn't get out of there fast enough.

Because their goal was to work for WWE. Although Brian Kendrick did quit WWE to work Japan and the indys at one point. And it did him the world of good

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Matt Hardy springs to mind. Worked the indies for what, a month (?), after vowing his eternal hatred for WWE and then couldn't wait to get back to WWE. Most of them however tend to be people who the WWE aren't actually interested in anyway, like, I imagine, this ROH girl.

I have to admit that you got me a bit mixed up. I've never seen Lacey actually say that she wouldn't join WWE. I do remember her expressing disappointment about Gail Kim and Jazz being released, but the only place where she expressed obvious anti-WWE feelings was in a heel promo!

And Matt Hardy was hardly a nobody on the indy scene, was he?! I honestly don't know of any indy wrestlers who said that they wouldn't join WWE before joining them, so if you're going to say something like that you'll need some evidence!

Mr.Nice Guy · 11-01-2008 6:15am

Fozzy wrote: »

I think it does say something though that WWE didn't want her back on their show until she looked good. For years Sunny was overweight, yet it took less than two months after those photos of her popped up on the internet recently for WWE to get her on tv

That was for her own beenfit though. You know as well as I do that she would have been unmercifully mocked for appearing on TV the way she looked in the past. Likewise you wouldn't have wanted the massively overweight Scott Hall to have appeared on TNA would you?

Fozzy wrote:

Because their goal was to work for WWE.

As is the case for 99.9% of those in the wrestling business.

Fozzy wrote:

And Matt Hardy was hardly a nobody on the indy scene, was he?! I honestly don't know of any indy wrestlers who said that they wouldn't join WWE before joining them, so if you're going to say something like that you'll need some evidence!

Matt was on the road to becoming a nobody before he got the opportunity to go back. Same with Charlie Haas and a host of other guys.

gimmick · 11-01-2008 10:03am

Why do people even reply to this "guy"? He knows absolutely nothing, thinks he knows everything, and is doing a fantastic job of winding everyone up. Ignore lists are the job.

Vince135792003 · 11-01-2008 11:46am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

No you miss the point entirely. Sunny got over through mic skills and charisma because she could talk just as good as the guys, and better than a lot of them in fact.

The reason Sunny got over was because she was the the first of really what was to follow in my opinion. I agree totally with Lita Forever and I can vouch for it because thats how Sunny got over with me! She had charisma too but she was the first woman in the WWE to be overtly sexual. And it got over.

When I was a young, impressionable young lad I never thought "Wow that Sunny sure can talk" (even though she could and entertained me). Instead my primary thought was "Sunny sure does look hotter than Alundra Blaize and Bull Nakano in that farm outfit. That old Fineeus Godwin sure is a lucky guy".

Today, there's so many divas that aside from a couple, they are all interchangeable. Sunny got over largely because she was the first.

The same can be said for all those divas matches. When they first happened, crowds ate them up and many guys probably bought ppv's for ones that Sable was in when she was insanely over. Now you can put them on tv and its "just another day" in WWE.

Lita Forever · 11-01-2008 12:46pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It was using Tammy to get at the women in wrestling which is not fair. Like I said if you want to bemoan women's wrestling then your target ought to be Vince McMahon as he's the one who determines the direction it goes in. Also it seemed like they popped for Tammy at the end, not that I particulary give a sh*t what those fans think.

To say Tammy was "used" is a bit of a strong statement. I'm sure she knew what was going to be said beforehand, she played along, and again did receive pay for the event. The point is the target WAS Vince Mc Mahon and the WWE. Of course the crowd popped for Tammy, doesn't that tell you something? The audience like Tammy knew the message in the promo wasn't directed towards her. A lot of RoH promos are similar to this one, there can be messages in there not directed towards the performers in the ring. But then again you seem to bash RoH every chance you get (including this one), so there's probably no point in even explaining it to you.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

No you miss the point entirely. Sunny got over through mic skills and charisma because she could talk just as good as the guys, and better than a lot of them in fact. The reason Kelly Kelly can't get over to such a degree is because she can't talk for sh*t and has the personality of a plank. To say Sunny only got over on looks does her a big disservice. Can't believe I'm explaining to a girl that you need to be more than just T&A to be charismatic!

I'm not saying Sunny only got over on looks, but her looks played a very large part of it. Vince & Fozzy summed this one up for me. If it wasn't just her looks that WWE was (and is) interested in, then why didn't WWE show any interest in her all those years previously. She still had those mic skills etc, but her looks in can be said went downhill. All of a sudden she looks good again and bingo she's on WWE TV. Oh and yeah she really got to display her great mic skills on the Raw Anniversary, right? I can't believe a guy can't see the reason Sunny got over with the WWE's target audience.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Maria's not over solely on her looks. Her popularity is down to the fact she comes across as someone likeable. That's why kids and women seem to like her too. That is what charisma is about. Being likeable. As rossie said she performs her role very well and I reckon could do more on the show if allowed. Actually I reckon she'd do well outside of the wrestling business (as I've stated before) and it's not the shallow part of me that thinks that because I'd hate to see her leave my TV screen.

I'm sorry I do accept what you're saying here, but still, judging by your posts about maria here in the past I'm very surprised you care the slightest bit about anything after her looks.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

You are naive. You take this nobody's word as gospel even though bigger and more successful people in the wrestling world have been lured back to the arms of those in Stamford. The contract offered by Gail Kim could have been lowballed just like the one offered to the Dudleys (most likely the case).

In fact the girl in your username came back to WWE despite reports she was unhappy with how she was treated when she left in the first place. Wake up and realise that promises and vows count for sh*t in this industry.

I've explained this is my other posts. It should be pointed out that Lita only went back for the one night special much like RVD who was also unhappy.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

You posted a comment wholeheartedly endorsing a promo in which Sunny/Tammy Sytch was labelled as the reason for the women in the wrestling business being required to be pretty and "enhanced". You claimed this promo represented how many people felt.

I then called you up on this and you backtracked your statement saying that this promo should actually NOT be taken as a swipe at Sunny (even though judging by your comments you seem to have something against the woman).

I take exception to somebody who seems a good person, who gave a lot to the industry and who has suffered some terrible times in her life being incorrectly and unfairly lambasted as the reason for women's wrestling being all about looks. This appeared to be your view in your original statement.

I " wholeheartedly endorsed" the message behind the promo and endorsed what Lacey said as i took it to be directed elsewhere. never once did I say I endorsed the scripted promo directed towards heel Lacey to face Tammy. I don't really have to explain the difference do I? Come on man, wake up..

Don't go giving me the " you said this but then you said this but then I said that so you said this" stuff. Talking circles around me doesn't work. I'm perfectly aware of what I said, and stand by what I said. If you don't get the meaning in my posts and choose to put your own slant on it even though I explained what I meant numerous times, then there's not much more I can do.

I will say again, I have nothing against Tammy. She seems to be a good person. I respect how far she got in a male dominated business. But I'll stand by the fact that most of her appeal came in her looks. I'm not knocking her for it, more power to her but to say that her success is not due in a large part to her looks is ridiculous.

Again she wasn't being lambasted in real life, there was a mes...oh forget it. Lol.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

So you acknowledge that male wrestlers need more than looks to get over yet you feel the opposite is true for women? What tosh. Awesome Kong seems to be getting over nicely in TNA. Why is that do you reckon? They interested in larger ladies down in Florida perhaps? :rolleyes:

I was speaking about the WWE. Come on now can you see a woman like Kong being on WWE TV and them NOT ridiculing her appearance? Not too likely. Anyways I wasted too much time replying to this when i should be getting ready for work lol. We have our different opinions so perhaps it's best left at that?

Fozzy · 11-01-2008 4:44pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

That was for her own beenfit though. You know as well as I do that she would have been unmercifully mocked for appearing on TV the way she looked in the past. Likewise you wouldn't have wanted the massively overweight Scott Hall to have appeared on TNA would you?

Vickie Guerrero appeared on WWE tv in the past in much better shape than she is now, yet I can't recall many fans mocking her. I seriously doubt that the reason Vince didn't put Sunny on tv for years is because he was concerned about fans mocking her and hurting her feelings. It was because she didn't look like his idea of a diva

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

As is the case for 99.9% of those in the wrestling business.

That figure is grossly overstated. What about all the guys in Japan whose goal it is to work for New Japan or NOAH, or the other guys who just want to remain loyal to whatever company they broke through with? What about all the Mexican wrestlers who dream of working for CMLL or AAA? Those guys make up a hell of a lot more than 0.1% of wrestlers in the world

You make it sound as if the indys are an evil place where guys can't wait to leave. I've never heard any WWE wrestler who worked on the indys talk bad about their experience. It's just that most people in life would like to earn as much money as possible, which is why most American wrestlers would sign with WWE if given the chance

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Matt was on the road to becoming a nobody before he got the opportunity to go back. Same with Charlie Haas and a host of other guys.

I just checked and I can't find anywhere where Matt said that he hated WWE, apart from in character at a wrestling show. I found a couple of interviews he did after he was released and he said this:

Matt says he loves WWE and doesn't understand why the situation couldn't be resolved without his release

Matt thanks WWE and says he made alot of money with them and it was a great experience overall.

Matt said his greatest accomplishment in his career was signing a big contract with WWE and making a living performing and wrestling for the "dream" company

http://www.wrestleview.com/news2005/1114792357.shtml and http://www.gerweck.net/matthardyinterview.htm

I wasn't able to find any interviews with Charlie Haas, but I found one with his wife just after they got released, and she said that he'd be willing to go back to WWE if they wanted him back

I'll say it again, I honestly don't know of any case where an indy wrestler said that they wouldn't join WWE and then they joined them. If you can show me a case then fair enough, but otherwise I'm not going to believe that it's true

Mr.Nice Guy · 12-01-2008 2:13am

gimmick wrote: »

Why do people even reply to this "guy"? He knows absolutely nothing, thinks he knows everything, and is doing a fantastic job of winding everyone up. Ignore lists are the job.

Are these kind of comments endorsed on this forum? Talk about a blatant ad hominem attack. I'd respond in kind but I wouldn't want to stoop to your sad level. Instead I'll simply advise you to go back to looking at your Kenta Kobashi poster as it might calm you down a bit.

Vince135792003 wrote:

The reason Sunny got over was because she was the the first of really what was to follow in my opinion. I agree totally with Lita Forever and I can vouch for it because thats how Sunny got over with me! She had charisma too but she was the first woman in the WWE to be overtly sexual. And it got over.

But you acknowledge she had charisma? Course she was hot as hell but she was more than that.

Lita Forever wrote:

To say Tammy was "used" is a bit of a strong statement. I'm sure she knew what was going to be said beforehand, she played along, and again did receive pay for the event. The point is the target WAS Vince Mc Mahon and the WWE. Of course the crowd popped for Tammy, doesn't that tell you something? The audience like Tammy knew the message in the promo wasn't directed towards her. A lot of RoH promos are similar to this one, there can be messages in there not directed towards the performers in the ring. But then again you seem to bash RoH every chance you get (including this one), so there's probably no point in even explaining it to you.

It's not a "strong statement" I'm making I'm just acknowledging the thought process behind the promo. The fact is the promo was using Tammy as a symbol of women's wrestling in the WWE.

As for me bashing ROH every chance I get, I don't think I've said a word about them in months as I generally try to avoid the company altogether. Not that I see a problem in bashing them since WWE and TNA get regularly bashed. God forbid anyone have a dislike of ROH though eh?!

Lita Forever wrote:

I'm not saying Sunny only got over on looks, but her looks played a very large part of it. Vince & Fozzy summed this one up for me. If it wasn't just her looks that WWE was (and is) interested in, then why didn't WWE show any interest in her all those years previously. She still had those mic skills etc, but her looks in can be said went downhill. All of a sudden she looks good again and bingo she's on WWE TV. Oh and yeah she really got to display her great mic skills on the Raw Anniversary, right? I can't believe a guy can't see the reason Sunny got over with the WWE's target audience.

As I said already Sunny was not going to get on WWE the way she looked previously since she had let herself go much in the same way Scott Hall had about a year ago. Neither were going to get TV time on any wrestling company due to their respective conditions.

Sorry but I don't accept that people can get over purely on a look. There's got to be more to it than that. Did Hulk Hogan get over due solely to his distinctive, cartoonish look? No, mic skills played a big part and his overall charisma was the key. That is my belief.

Lita Forever wrote:

I'm sorry I do accept what you're saying here, but still, judging by your posts about maria here in the past I'm very surprised you care the slightest bit about anything after her looks.

I can assure you if I felt she was a bitch in real life I wouldn't find her anywhere near as attractive!

Lita Forever wrote:

I've explained this is my other posts. It should be pointed out that Lita only went back for the one night special much like RVD who was also unhappy.

Exactly. This is my point. No matter how badly they get treated they still know that, realistically speaking, it's the only show in town.

Lita Forever wrote:

I " wholeheartedly endorsed" the message behind the promo and endorsed what Lacey said as i took it to be directed elsewhere. never once did I say I endorsed the scripted promo directed towards heel Lacey to face Tammy. I don't really have to explain the difference do I? Come on man, wake up..

Well actually yeah you do have to explain because you posted a video where Tammy was slagged off in a promo and simply said that you agreed with it and so would a lot of female wrestling fans. Don't you think you should have clarified what you meant? (You later did so and I appreciate that)

Lita Forever wrote:

Don't go giving me the " you said this but then you said this but then I said that so you said this" stuff. Talking circles around me doesn't work. I'm perfectly aware of what I said, and stand by what I said. If you don't get the meaning in my posts and choose to put your own slant on it even though I explained what I meant numerous times, then there's not much more I can do.

You already clarified things though didn't you? Quote:

Yeah, I should have been clearer about that in my original post, sorry.

That's fair enough. Thanks for clarifying!

Lits Forever wrote:

I will say again, I have nothing against Tammy. She seems to be a good person. I respect how far she got in a male dominated business. But I'll stand by the fact that most of her appeal came in her looks. I'm not knocking her for it, more power to her but to say that her success is not due in a large part to her looks is ridiculous.

Well I think charisma played a big part but I respect your viewpoint.

Fozzy wrote:

Vickie Guerrero appeared on WWE tv in the past in much better shape than she is now, yet I can't recall many fans mocking her. I seriously doubt that the reason Vince didn't put Sunny on tv for years is because he was concerned about fans mocking her and hurting her feelings. It was because she didn't look like his idea of a diva.

Come on, be serious. Who was going to mock the wife of Eddie Guerrero? That's why she's on TV now because they want to assist her family financially. And has Vickie even changed much? I haven't noticed. Sunny and Scott Hall looked bloody terrible for a time. Putting them on TV would have been disastrous for all concerned. Besides according to Tammy herself, she plans on losing more pounds to get in "Sunny shape" which tells me that they weren't requiring her to look like their current crop of divas but simply to look healthy and well.

Fozzy wrote:

That figure is grossly overstated. What about all the guys in Japan whose goal it is to work for New Japan or NOAH, or the other guys who just want to remain loyal to whatever company they broke through with? What about all the Mexican wrestlers who dream of working for CMLL or AAA? Those guys make up a hell of a lot more than 0.1% of wrestlers in the world

That is a fair point. Let me rephrase then. 99.9% of those in North America and Europe.

Fozzy wrote:

You make it sound as if the indys are an evil place where guys can't wait to leave. I've never heard any WWE wrestler who worked on the indys talk bad about their experience. It's just that most people in life would like to earn as much money as possible, which is why most American wrestlers would sign with WWE if given the chance.

I don't think it's an evil place but it's a means to an end. How many people get into wrestling to become an indy worker and that's it? They get into wrestling because they most likely have watched WWE and dream of one day being there.

Fozzy wrote:

I just checked and I can't find anywhere where Matt said that he hated WWE, apart from in character at a wrestling show.

I read Matt bash WWE when he made his few appearances following his release. Was this "in character" or heartfelt? Considering he had been fired while his former friend and the girlfriend who cheated on him remained in the company, I'm guessing it was heartfelt!

Fozzy wrote:

I wasn't able to find any interviews with Charlie Haas, but I found one with his wife just after they got released, and she said that he'd be willing to go back to WWE if they wanted him back.

Well watch the Charlie Haas shoot video because he rips on WWE for the way they treated him and Jackie.

Fozzy wrote:

I'll say it again, I honestly don't know of any case where an indy wrestler said that they wouldn't join WWE and then they joined them. If you can show me a case then fair enough, but otherwise I'm not going to believe that it's true

I've named examples and on the thread we're discussing there is another example! The indy scene features guys professing their "loyalty" to whatever minnow organisation it is they compete in yet when the call from Stamford comes it's buh-bye folks!

Vince135792003 · 12-01-2008 11:39am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

But you acknowledge she had charisma? Course she was hot as hell but she was more than that.

I think she had charisma but like I said, it wasn't the major reason she got over. It was was because she was the first woman to be overtly sexual in WWE. Andd it got over because it was a new thing to WWE fans.

In my opinion, if any hot girl had gotten the "1996 Sunny spot", they would have been over big. Just look at Sable, who in many ways got the Sunny spot.

She was insanely over for a lengthy period. And the reason, just like Sunny, she was was being overtly sexual at a time when WWE fans weren't used to it. Sable offered not much more than a body and she was one of the biggest stars (and a draw) in the attitude era. She got over purely on her look.

rossie1977 · 12-01-2008 4:07pm

IIRC sable got over big time once she started speaking and wrestling, i remember she was over huge the time she wrestled mero and sablebombed him

Vince135792003 · 12-01-2008 5:44pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

IIRC sable got over big time once she started speaking and wrestling,

She got over big when she started wearing latex. I'm only half joking. It was all about her look that got her over which was unique and special for that period of time. Today, she'd be just another body.

Her match at 'Mania exceeded everybodies expectations but even when she had less stellar matches, she was still incredibly over.

Mr.Nice Guy · 12-01-2008 10:24pm

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I think she had charisma but like I said, it wasn't the major reason she got over. It was was because she was the first woman to be overtly sexual in WWE. Andd it got over because it was a new thing to WWE fans.

In my opinion, if any hot girl had gotten the "1996 Sunny spot", they would have been over big. Just look at Sable, who in many ways got the Sunny spot.

She was insanely over for a lengthy period. And the reason, just like Sunny, she was was being overtly sexual at a time when WWE fans weren't used to it. Sable offered not much more than a body and she was one of the biggest stars (and a draw) in the attitude era. She got over purely on her look.

I agree with you that her sexuality was a key component of her popularity but I don't think she would have gotten over to the degree she did without her ability on the mic.

It's all well looking good but if you have the personality of a plank then you're not going to last more than five minutes. She did though - because she had a personality.

Vince135792003 · 13-01-2008 12:18am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I don't think she would have gotten over to the degree she did without her ability on the mic.

It's all well looking good but if you have the personality of a plank then you're not going to last more than five minutes. y..

Sable did. 1996 WWE was a very different time. But whatever, they got over, which is what it's all about at the end of the day.

slicus ricus · 13-01-2008 6:16pm

My 2 cent on the matter is as follows:

Tammy got over due to to mixture of looks, sex appeal, charisma, and mic skills. Its the charisma and mic skills that seperated her from the other women who have the looks and sex appeal.

Why exactly do women seem to have a problem with the fact that how someone looks is very important in the wrestling business? Its not just for women wrestlers; the look is extremely important for the guys as well. WWE sign guys with good bodies who an wrestle and/or talk and have charisma. Why should it be any different for women wrestlers? Its pure hypocrasy in my opinion.

However, I do understand the fact that sometimes WWE priorises looks over ability and charisma - see Candice Michelle and Batista as an example. The thing is with Batista its less noticeable because he looks like he could legitimately kill nearly everyone he's in the ring with.

Regarding Lacey, I think she is someone who could have a huge future in wrestling (in WWE if she wants it). Shes a very good worker who can talk and has a lot of charisma. She can also play a character very well. In that promo (and in all her other heel promos for that matter), she comes accross as a complete psycho; whereas in reality she's completely different. When I was talking to her when she was wrestling in Dublin, she came accross as being very nice and very respectful with a good attitude. Also, she does have the look needed to make it to WWE. That would get her in the door there, but with her wrestling ability and charisma, I would imagine she would get over - much like Sunny did!

Lacey Promo In ROH/Women In Wrestling

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