Dogs

peasant

Pheonix Ski wrote: »

Oh i no there is some dreadful looking dogs (as terrible as it may seem to say) but i guess everyone has different taste ... Beauty is in the eyes off the beholder and all that....

It's not just a question of "beauty" I'm afraid.
Some breeds have been messed with (in the name of "beauty") to such a degree that they have a drastically reduced quality of life.

lightening

peasant wrote: »

Some breeds have been messed with (in the name of "beauty") to such a degree that they have a drastically reduced quality of life.

Would you agree with the "breeding out" of some breeds, or all breeds?

I have come around lately. Looking at bull dogs, shar pei and the like.

Another thing, since reading on this forum, I don't think I will ever spend money on a dog again. My next dog will most likely be an unwanted one.

Thanks to you lot...

peasant

lightening wrote: »

Would you agree with the "breeding out" of some breeds, or all breeds?

I believe in educating people as to the needs and rights of dogs.

That way they won't choose to get a breed where the dogs were bred to suffer.

No demand, no breeding.

lightening

Thats a politicians answer!

Well, I'm all educated. I still love the "pure breeds" but I'm gonna have to go with an unwanted dog next. To many of them knocking around.

peasant

I have no problem with pure bred dogs per se, as long as the breeders are doing a proper job.

It's not all black and white you know ...pure bred vs rescue.

Some breeders actually do dogs as a whole a lot of good and further our understanding of dogs' health and genetic makeup.

It is the definition (or rather the standard) of breed that I sometimes have issues with.

Hopefully the day will come where people want to buy (and breeders breed) a healthy "Retriever dog" regardless of looks, instead of the genetically subdivided "labradors", "goldens", "chocolates" "curly coated", flat coated", duck tolling" and whatever else there is

lightening

Right. Its trying to find the right breeder then (if you want a certain dog)

I have had two dogs of the same breeds and they were polar opposits. No book reading and research would prepare you for one of them in particular.

peasant

Yes, but that's perfectly normal.

I've been saying it here for ages ...a breed description tells you everything about appearance and nothing about character/behaviour (other than wishful thinking and made-up morkeshin wish-wash)

Dogs are and always will be individuals, regardless of breed.


Choosing the" right" breeder doesn't mean that your dog will behave according to whatever book it is you read about the breed ....but it should mean that the dog was bred to be healthy (not to win shows), have a long life and was brought up in ideal circumstances.

arybvtcw0eolkf

My fav's have to be the bull breeds.

Oh, I really dislike Yorkshire Terriers & Pomeranians.

lightening

Mairt wrote: »

My fav's have to be the bull breeds.

I would have never guessed! Thanks for bringing us back on topic.... Ever see the American Bulldogs? A neighbour used to breed them. Huge things, here is a photo, the one at the back is a pup.

Pheonix Ski

ohmy... what is wrong with the poor dogs eyes o-O

peasant

I have a dislike for these dogs:

(not so much the dogs, but what was done to them)





now ...compare the above to what nature and not man "designed"

sillymoo

I have to say I love Irish Red Setters!!!!!! But when I eventually get a dog along with my house in the country, acres of land and a job it will have to get on with my cats :rolleyes:

bernard0368

It has to be the Lurcher, Loyal fun and lovely temperment. Mad as hell.

fatmammycat

I can't comment on the other dogs photographed, but I know a girl who owns a basset, he's almost 12 and he's one of the most robust healthiest dogs I've ever laid eyes on. No arthritis, rambles with her about 3 to 5k a day, he's an easy going, radiator hogging cheese gourmand. Lovely old chap. Bred properly bassets make very sound dogs. The problems seem to occur when people breed two poor examples of the breed together.
All pure bred dogs are designed. We bred them for temperament, for disposition, build, stamina, work, soft mouth, numerous reasons. But that's no reason to dismiss them as inferior to what nature intended. A good breeder will look for the best characteristics of the breed standard and work to improve the blood line, not weaken it.
The next dog I own will be a pure bred dog-probably a doberman as I've owned one before plus I run a lot and they are excellent companion dogs for activity. I will source him, buy from a good reputable breeder, register him and have him neutered and microchipped. Once I have him I will socialise him, train him to be a functioning family member with immaculate manners, love and care for him and keep him until the day he dies.
I think if more people took the time to really think and research exactly what kind of dog they want-and fits their circumstances honestly, and took the time and effort to train their dogs and make sure their dogs didn't breed litters of unwanted pups, Ireland as a whole would be less of a disgrace to dog welfare.
I have three cats here who all came from rescue situations (16/12 /6 years respectively) and it chaps my hide that people are so LAZY about doing right by their animals. If everyone just took responsibility for the animals they owned, we could in one or two generations almost eliminate the plight of the poor creatures who end up being destroyed daily in our pounds.

peasant

fatmammycat wrote: »

...that's no reason to dismiss them as inferior to what nature intended. ...

I didn't "dismiss" any dogs, nor call them inferior.

What the above comparison should highlight though, is to what extent some breeds have (been) deviated from the natural shape.

Non-existing nasal cavities, oversized heads, over-long backs combined with over-short legs, excess skin, deformed hips, hairlessness or excess hair, the list goes on and on ...

All "designed" needlessly and for no other purpose than fashion

lightening

peasant wrote: »

to what extent some breeds have (been) deviated from the natural shape.

Yeah, the original bulldog looked nothing like todays immobile, health nightmare, they were big, strong, and robust. The modern one is a smaller version with all its features exaggerated to the extreme.

Whats with the modern German Shepard, those slight back quarters wouldn't be much help on the pasture with cattle. What Peasant is saying that these changes in breeds for fashion don't do the breed any favours...

peasant

...nor the animals themselves.

lightening

of course... Back on subject, everyone loves an Old English Sheepdog! I had one for years. He was great.

canislupus

My Favourite breeds are
The dutch shepherd (Hollandse herderhond), both the rough and short haired varieties. They're a really lovely unexaggerated, intelligent trainable dog with a steady temperament.
I also like Belgian Shepherds, particularly laekenois (link)

canislupus

Here's a photo of a short haired Dutch shepherd

Pheonix Ski

This would be the next breed i would get if i was to get another breed

Stunning looking dog

fits

I like most types. Everyone knows I have a weakness for the sighthounds anyway, but I wouldnt mind a more trainable type of dog in the future too.

I love these guys

MsFifers

But you couldn't bate the Irish Wolfhound - the big lugs! They always seem to be on another planet and daydreamy!

When my forgotten-about rich distant relation bequeaths their massive Big House estate to me i'm going to get one!

jameshayes

peasant wrote: »

All "designed" needlessly and for no other purpose than fashion

The basset hound was bread in the 1500's for the purpose of foot hunting game. They are derived from blood hounds and they have small legs so they cant run to fast for their masters. The breed is in no way a fashion bread dog. And they have long ears and shaggy skin so they can filter smells, when their ears brush the ground the smells are pushed up the nose.

peasant

jameshayes wrote: »

The basset hound was bread in the 1500's for the purpose of foot hunting game. They are derived from blood hounds and they have small legs so they cant run to fast for their masters. The breed is in no way a fashion bread dog. And they have long ears and shaggy skin so they can filter smells, when their ears brush the ground the smells are pushed up the nose.

Maybe not "fashion" - bred ...but the fact that they were bred crippled (and suffering from all sorts of joint and back pains) because their "masters" couldn't be bothered to speed up a bit still speaks volumes, doesn't it?

I'll give you the long ears for gathering smells near the nose ...the excess skin though (mainly under the chin) goes a long way in achieving that sad, typical Basset facial expression and is a fairly recent "fashion" addition ...along with the also typical eye infection.

fatmammycat

The long dewlaps of bassets was always part of the breed's makeup and has nothing to do with 'fashion' either. They're incredibly heavy boned dogs, and walk with a bouncy gait and are no more prone to joint pains than any other breed of dog once kept within a healthy weight range. In fact they're quite healthy as a breed. If there is a problem with their joints it's because owners let them get so over weight or breeders bred poor quality dogs. Which can happen with any breed.

GA361

Fatmammycat,I have to say that you are on the ball.
I agree with you 100 per cent.
The health of all dogs lies in the hand of the breeder,not the breed itself.

peasant

GA361 wrote: »

The health of all dogs lies in the hand of the breeder,not the breed itself.

Don't just take my word for it:


http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/pekingese.html

Serious health problems. The biggest problem with Pekingese is health. This breed has been grossly deformed by modern breeders. The unnaturally short face and upturned nose means breathing difficulties and the potential for heatstroke in hot humid weather. Their compromised respiratory system makes it risky to anesthetize them. Most of these dogs can't even whelp their puppies without veterinary intervention.
The large shallow-set eyes are extremely vulnerable to injury and infection. The long back is susceptible to disk problems. Pekingese are also prone to joint problems, skin problems, and allergies.

In my opinion, what has been done to this breed's structure and health in order to create an amusing appearance and to win in the show ring is a travesty.

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/bulldogs.html

Serious health problems. Make no mistake about it, English Bulldogs are grossly deformed and modern breeders, especially show breeders, perpetuate the health problems with every litter they produce. It's been said that if you feel like supporting your vet with great chunks of money, get an English Bulldog. They suffer from hip problems, heart problems, and skin problems. Their compromised respiratory system makes it very risky to anesthetize them.
Many Bulldogs can't even walk normally, or run without gasping for breath. Many of them struggle to breathe in hot or humid weather. In the summer they should be kept in air-conditioning and supervised during outside activity so they don't over-exert themselves and become overheated

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/dachshunds.html

Serious back/spinal problems. An alarming number of Dachshunds become crippled or paralyzed in middle age when they develop disk diseases in their long back.

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/bassethounds.html

Chronic health problems. Because of overbreeding, poor breeding practices, and an unnaturally long heavy body, long ears, and loose skin, Basset Hounds suffer more than their share of bone and joint problems, ear infections, and skin disorders.

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/germanshepherds.html

Serious health problems. From hip and elbow problems, to bone diseases and cancer, to stomach disorders and skin diseases, German Shepherds are one of the riskiest of all breeds in the health department.

The above are just the random examples I picked in my pictures ....it gets worse !

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/cavalierkingcharlesspaniels.html

The health epidemic. The biggest problem with Cavalier King Charles Spaniels today is health. This breed is in serious trouble.

Heart disease (specifically, mitral valve disease or MVD) is the number-one killer of Cavaliers. Up to HALF of all Cavaliers is likely to develop MVD by 5 years of age -- and virtually ALL Cavaliers by 10 years of age. No one should acquire a Cavalier today unless they're prepared to spend lots of money for heart monitoring and heart care.

A second serious health problem is syringomyelia, an inherited neurological disease. If a puppy is born without enough room in his skull to accommodate his brain, the back of the brain gets forced out of the skull and blocks the opening to the vertebral canal. This prevents cerebrospinal fluid from circulating freely; instead the fluid is forced into the spinal cord, causing a variety of neurological symptoms: abnormal skin sensations that cause excessive scratching around the neck or shoulder, sensitivity to touch around the neck or shoulder, yelping for no apparent reason, incoordination, and so on. (Not all symptoms are present in every dog.) Symptoms usually (but not always) appear between 6 months and 3 years old. There's no cure for this condition and current research suggests that 50% or more of the breed may be affected, though many are not yet showing symptoms

fatmammycat

*climbs on soapbox, taps glass.

I'm not disagreeing with you Peasant, but rather pointing out that the majority of these problems occur due to poor breeding practices, backyard breeders who care nothing for confirmation, hip dysplasia, hip scores or assorted hereditary problems, but care a great deal about making as much money as possible per litter.
That's not to say certain breeds are not more prone to breed specific problems. But a good breeder will strive to eliminate that and in general a carefully bred dog with good lines is a pretty healthy specimen. Of course there are anomalies, but in general if you see a dog with a host of problems I would question breeding practices.
You are of course correct in what you say with regards to functionality, a good example is the german shepherd. There was a huge debate a few years ago about the slope in confirmation causing weaker hind quarters and a huge ruckus erupted about form over function, as a result a lot of breeders are now doing their utmost to fight against that deep slanted back and are introducing lines of champion dogs who do not have a roach back. A lot of American bred dogs for example do not carry that slope (especially working dogs) and a lot of German dogs (especially for the ring) do. But as hip problems and gait problems continue I can see it being phased out in the next ten years or so.
My friend has often said she despairs of the poor standards of bassets she meets, many with roach backs, splayed feet and enormous girths. A well bred basset -hers in a perfect example of a well bred dog, 12 years old but robust if a little slower due to age- can carry his own weight and dense bones perfectly, tail curled slightly to the back. They're quite light on their feet and while not speedy can go at that comfortable trundle for quite some time. But again poor breeding practices allow bitches to be covered with dogs of questionable quality and the resulting pups are what you see and quite rightly point out as an animal who is hardly doing well.
There is an ongoing debate also about bulldogs/pugs/shar pei and so on. Some bulldogs are so badly bred they can scarcely breath and the pups are generally delivered by cesarean as the bitch simply cannot use her birth canal due to the size of the heads. This too is being challenged by a number of good breeders who recognise the health of their dogs is suffering.
My own breed dobermans have their own problems (von Willibrand disease). Also I must say I am totally against docking and cutting ears, and hope when the time comes to get a pup who has not been butchered. But again it will take time to get it through to people that slicing off a perfectly healthy tail and beautiful floppy ears is a cruel act.
It takes time to change attitudes to breed standard but it is heartening to see some common sense and a genuine concern for healthy and longevity fighting to the fore.
I could go on-I am a born waffler and I care deeply about animals- but the main point I am trying to make is that breeders have a responsibility to improve breed standards, not go for the money. That's another reason why I am against un-neutered dogs, both mongrel and 'pure' bred. Too many people are just breeding dogs in the hope of making a quick buck and not taking into consideration blood lines, confirmation or anything else I mentioned above. While there is serious money to be made in this island buying and selling sub standard puppies, sub standard dogs will always be around. But then it's up to us to stop buying such animals and fueling the trade.


* climbs off soap box. Apologises for extended waffle.

AckwelFoley

Mongrels are my favorite.

They're smarter