Kenny statement on Bertie

greatdeeds

Ahern has demeaned politics, says Kenny

Saturday, 12 January 2008 12:37
The Fine Gael leader, Enda Kenny, has accused the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, of demeaning the profession of politics because of what has emerged about his personal finances at the Mahon Tribunal.
Speaking in Castlebar in Co Mayo this morning, Mr Kenny also criticised the Minister for Finance, Brian Cowen and the Green Party.
Much of Mr Kenny's statement focuses on Mr Cowen's role as Minister for Finance and as Tánaiste.
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He asked how Mr Cowen could sit beside a Taoiseach who had not paid his taxes, who had misled the Dáil about his tax affairs and who had refused to correct the record.
The Fine Gael leader claimed that the Taoiseach was using Mr Cowen as an accomplice to deceive the Irish people.
And he said he believed that if Mr Cowen did not act, he would bear responsibility for Mr Ahern continuing in office despite the compelling case for his removal.
Mr Cowen has responded by saying that he was not surprised at the vitriolic nature of Mr Kenny's statement.
He added he did not intend to take lectures from Mr Kenny on this or any other issue.

Mr Kenny also accused the Minister for the Environment, John Gormley and the Minister for Health, Mary Harney, of choosing to put their ministerial seats of office ahead of getting clear explanations and accountability from the Taoiseach.

Here here...:mad:

Red Alert

The fact that FF members such as Brian Cowan are supportive of the taoiseach's behaviour by their silence is disappointing. We point and laugh at people like Berlusconi - are we really any better than him? In a corporate environment he would have been suspended whilst an investigation (i.e. the tribunal) was in progress.

maximus02

The Fine Gael leader, Enda Kenny, has accused the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, of demeaning the profession of politics because of what has emerged about his personal finances at the Mahon Tribunal.

Is it possible for the profession of politics to be demeaned any further in this country?

It has been going downhill since the days of CJH.

Mr. Kenny's party has also assisted in this downward trend.

Mr.Micro

I think none of the political parties have covered themselves in glory. If one digs at all into the history of FF or FG, some past corruption story surfaces be it planning, or political favours, offshore banking, tax avoidance etc. The way forward is not self regulation but strict laws on corruption for any public official or civil servant and not just leave it to the wishy washy ethics committee. I just cannot see that happening where accountability and zero tolerance of corruption will be put in place so Mr. Kenny its a bit like kettle, pot and black.

juuge

Mr.Micro wrote: »

so Mr. Kenny its a bit like kettle, pot and black.

I don't agree with that ! - Any corruption or matters of trust that occured in fine gael were swiftly and promptly dealt with.
Fianna Fáil have a core of corruption that invoved the most senior ministers in any cabinet, and let's face it Bertie was right in there.
It puzzles me now that present senior ministers are devaluing themselves by questioning the tribunals' credibility.
I believe time will tell as it did with CJH.

eoin5

juuge wrote: »

I don't agree with that ! - Any corruption or matters of trust that occured in fine gael were swiftly and promptly dealt with.
Fianna Fáil have a core of corruption that invoved the most senior ministers in any cabinet, and let's face it Bertie was right in there.
It puzzles me now that present senior ministers are devaluing themselves by questioning the tribunals' credibility.
I believe time will tell as it did with CJH.

FG have demeaned politics in other ways. I remember a certain FG man trying to tax childrens shoes. I'm not defending the corruption in FF, its shocking and Kenny is right about it demeaning the politics in Ireland, but surely getting the basics right in government is much more important than this banter about dodgy personal finances. Its celeb gossip and its a distraction from what is really important in this country.

Victor

eoin5 wrote: »

FG have demeaned politics in other ways. I remember a certain FG man trying to tax childrens shoes.

So why should there be no VAT on a pair of €200 women's shoes?

The shoes should be taxed. You can increase children's allowance to balance it.

galwayrush

eoin5 wrote: »

FG have demeaned politics in other ways. I remember a certain FG man trying to tax childrens shoes..

WTF:eek:Not exactly Corruption,or Tax Avoidence is it?

KlondikePaddy

eoin5 wrote: »

FG have demeaned politics in other ways. I remember a certain FG man trying to tax childrens shoes. I'm not defending the corruption in FF, its shocking and Kenny is right about it demeaning the politics in Ireland, but surely getting the basics right in government is much more important than this banter about dodgy personal finances. Its celeb gossip and its a distraction from what is really important in this country.

Most TDs and senators to have got to where they are today must be devoid of any conscience or moral standards-you cannot be a politician today without being able to be willing to do anything to hold onto power-Bertie, Michael Lowry, whoever will all answer in the Tribunal of God himself one day and there will be no hotshot lawyers to defend them there because they will be down below rotting.

You must have the ability to skin your granny alive for a grant-if you can doi that without flinching then welcome to FF, FG, Labour, PDs, Greens, Sinn Fein, Socialists, etc etc even our lovely independents like Jackie Healy Rae who would cut out his own kidney to get one vote.:D

Liam Byrne

eoin5 wrote: »

surely getting the basics right in government is much more important than this banter about dodgy personal finances. Its celeb gossip and its a distraction from what is really important in this country.

Respectfully, that's bull****! Even if you do think they get the basics right in government (which they don't - shafting Shannon despite having a shareholder's vote in Aer Lingus, wasting the proceeds of the Celtic Tiger, mismanaging privatisation (eircom, etc), screwing everyone with stealth taxes while saying they're lowering taxes, self-congratulatory reports from ComReg, etc, that are basically lies, the list goes on and on......)

But that's all a matter of opinion, I guess, and you can't expect a blinkered FF/Ahern supporter to admit that FF have wasted the good years. So back to the corruption and its impact.

On the most basic level, if the Taoiseach can't vouch for where he got the money, and whether he paid tax on it, how the hell can he expect the PAYE sector to accept getting hit for tax, etc ? Why can't we hive off money and pay no tax ?

That is the initial cock-up, and the one that everyone in FF seems happy to gloss over.

Secondly, he said in the tribunal that he gave jobs to people not because of bribes or cash, but "because they were his friends".

That is corruption.

On the highest level, yet to be proven, there is the question of whether he doled out favours in return for the cash; without pre-empting the tribunal findings, it is looking dodgy (hence the tribunal, because if it didn't look dodgy there'd be no tribunal enquiry) and anyone who looks dodgy but is innocent would be doing everything in their power to clear their name.

So #3 is up for debate, but the first two levels of corruption and abuse are not - they are proven beyond doubt already, straight from the mouth of the guy that the country's biggest ever crook - Haughey - described as "the most cunning and devious of them all".

Yet no-one sees fit to turf him out on his ear, even when he wants an industrial-wage size pay rise ??

Explain that, if you can, and then see if it's less relevant than how they "manage" the country.

eoin5

I certainly dont think FF have done a good job either, in fact I hate what theyre doing to the country at the moment. My problem is the issue of what demeans politics more, corruption in itself or the way they mismanage the country.

Liam obviously nothing is as important as how politicians manage a country. The corruption is a big part of that, its not mutually exclusive, favours for builders, jobs for friends etc. My problem is that the word corruption carries too much weight these days and seems to matter on its own with no sense of context for what it may mean for the country. The morality of politicians plays out in some sort of reality tv show in our media and a lot of the time is very distant from what matters. Yes, they are there to be good boys and girls but things like politicians who take coke, while it is very serious, shouldnt occupy our news as much as it did. Its becoming more of a priority for politicians to be likeable and to look squeaky clean than to do a good job, and the likes of Kenny focusing his attention on the dirt certainly isnt helping.

Victor taxing childrens shoes, not womens shoes was what I was referring to. I'm sure theres plenty of ways to tax expensive womens shoes without taxing childrens shoes and its there to be done. The same goes for books, I think at the very least stuff like porn mags should be taxed (mightnt be too popular tho ).

Hotblack Desiato

eoin5 wrote: »

Victor taxing childrens shoes, not womens shoes was what I was referring to. I'm sure theres plenty of ways to tax expensive womens shoes without taxing childrens shoes and its there to be done.

It was precisely on this point that Bruton's budget fell. (He was later to become the only Minister for Finance to put two Budgets before the Dail and have neither pass)
There are plenty of adult women wearing 'childrens' size shoes, my wife among them. Good luck to you if you can come up with a practical scheme to tax them and not 'childrens' shoes of the same size.

eoin5

ninja900 wrote: »

It was precisely on this point that Bruton's budget fell. (He was later to become the only Minister for Finance to put two Budgets before the Dail and have neither pass)
There are plenty of adult women wearing 'childrens' size shoes, my wife among them. Good luck to you if you can come up with a practical scheme to tax them and not 'childrens' shoes of the same size.

Im sure its possible, all it needs is an inventive system to be put in place by a really smart minister for finances and his/her excellent team of advisors. I guess well be waiting forever.

is_that_so

eoin5 wrote: »

FG have demeaned politics in other ways. I remember a certain FG man trying to tax childrens shoes.

That was hardly demeaning to politics but it was political lunacy. There was a logic to it; he was looking for more money in an economy that could not be taxed any more.

As for the present state of affairs, my own feeling is as I have already posted elsewhere is that he is becoming more and more of a liability. Whereas in the past you could rely on O'Dea, Cullen or Dempsey to throw out the gaffes, all you need now is a microphone anywhere near Bertie. Surely FF will learn a lesson from Labour in the UK who, if the latest polls are to believed, are down 10% on the Conservatives.

Mr.Micro

juuge wrote: »

I don't agree with that ! - Any corruption or matters of trust that occured in fine gael were swiftly and promptly dealt with.
Fianna Fáil have a core of corruption that invoved the most senior ministers in any cabinet, and let's face it Bertie was right in there.
It puzzles me now that present senior ministers are devaluing themselves by questioning the tribunals' credibility.
I believe time will tell as it did with CJH.

The trouble is CJH got away with it. So tribunals are only good in hindsight, they do not deal with current accusations of corruption. What good (apart from the legal fees for Barristers) is finding out years later that certain politicians and officials were corrupt, it still does not stop any such individuals in current times, if anything gives them comfort knowing that any misdeeds that may be unearthed later will be have no significant effect. This a is sad reality.

jmayo

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I think none of the political parties have covered themselves in glory. If one digs at all into the history of FF or FG, some past corruption story surfaces be it planning, or political favours, offshore banking, tax avoidance etc. The way forward is not self regulation but strict laws on corruption for any public official or civil servant and not just leave it to the wishy washy ethics committee. I just cannot see that happening where accountability and zero tolerance of corruption will be put in place so Mr. Kenny its a bit like kettle, pot and black.

Excuse me micro, how can you compare Enda Kenny to Bertie Ahern or have you failed to notice the fact that bertie bafoon got thousands in digouts/loans/gifts from rich business friends some of whom he premoted onto Sate Boards, misled the Dail as to his finances while Minister of Finance, has tried to stall and now close a tribunal, signed blank cheques for that other fine FF leader CJH and now appears is not tax compliant.

The only reason bertie's kettle is not black is his famous teflon covering.

eoin5 wrote: »

I certainly dont think FF have done a good job either, in fact I hate what theyre doing to the country at the moment. My problem is the issue of what demeans politics more, corruption in itself or the way they mismanage the country.

Liam obviously nothing is as important as how politicians manage a country. The corruption is a big part of that, its not mutually exclusive, favours for builders, jobs for friends etc. My problem is that the word corruption carries too much weight these days and seems to matter on its own with no sense of context for what it may mean for the country. The morality of politicians plays out in some sort of reality tv show in our media and a lot of the time is very distant from what matters. Yes, they are there to be good boys and girls but things like politicians who take coke, while it is very serious, shouldnt occupy our news as much as it did. Its becoming more of a priority for politicians to be likeable and to look squeaky clean than to do a good job, and the likes of Kenny focusing his attention on the dirt certainly isnt helping.

Victor taxing childrens shoes, not womens shoes was what I was referring to. I'm sure theres plenty of ways to tax expensive womens shoes without taxing childrens shoes and its there to be done. The same goes for books, I think at the very least stuff like porn mags should be taxed (mightnt be too popular tho ).

So eoin should we go back to the good old days where it was sweep everything under the carpet? Was that not why we had institutional and church abuse that was covered up?
Shoot the messenger now seems to be the motto coming out of FF.
Close down the tribunal because it is costing too much. Maybe you and the bertie apologists should divert their anger towards those people that are holding up the progress of the tribunal, rather than the tribunal itself.

There have been corrupt or rather dodgy politicans in FG. Lowry being the biggest example and see how he was dealt with by the leadership.
Look at the list from FF: Lawlor, Burke, Haughey, Ahern, Flynn, Stroke Fahy to name only the most famous.
It is a hell of a bigger list and most of them had to have a fire put under their ar** before they were pushed or jumped.
But Ahern is still there, Fahy was welcomed back, Flynn was welcomed back. Hell they gave a state funeral, paid for by our taxes, to Haughey.
Oh and since when is trying to bring a tax in through a Finance budget equivalent to personally receiving briefcases of cash and failing to pay your own tax !

eoin5

jmayo wrote: »

So eoin should we go back to the good old days where it was sweep everything under the carpet? Was that not why we had institutional and church abuse that was covered up?

Thats not what I implied, read my post again. The country certainly benefits from weeding out the corruption through both the media and the justice system but when its given so much focus and attention and standalone value that the rest of politics becomes less important because of it, theres a problem.

juuge

Well said JMayo that about sums it up !

Kevster

So long as Kenny is leader of Fine Gael, I will never vote for them. He lacks charisma and I never really know what direction his party is taking. They appear to be the perpetual moaners and seem hell-bent on criticising, rather than creating.

pfkf1

Kevster wrote: »

So long as Kenny is leader of Fine Gael, I will never vote for them. He lacks charisma and I never really know what direction his party is taking. They appear to be the perpetual moaners and seem hell-bent on criticising, rather than creating.

Yes thats a great reason not to vote for a Party because their leader lacks charisma, it should be about who is going to a better job for the country, who will strive for perfection in all aspects of Irish society, and for Enda Kenny would do that.

Electing a Taoiseach should not be about whether you think you can go for a pint with them.

jmayo

Kevster wrote: »

So long as Kenny is leader of Fine Gael, I will never vote for them. He lacks charisma and I never really know what direction his party is taking. They appear to be the perpetual moaners and seem hell-bent on criticising, rather than creating.

Hitler was charismatic would you have voted for him then ?

So is charisma now more important than honesty ?

Zombrex

eoin5 wrote: »

Thats not what I implied, read my post again. The country certainly benefits from weeding out the corruption through both the media and the justice system but when its given so much focus and attention and standalone value that the rest of politics becomes less important because of it, theres a problem.

Well yes, but the problem is the corruption itself.

Corruption is completely unacceptable (or should be) in a modern democracy. It is not the same as the government simply doing a bad job. Mismanagement is simply something that comes hand in hand with democracy. I'm not saying I think mismanagement is good, but it is part of the system, it falls inside the term "democracy", where as corruption isn't. It needs to be routed out before anything else.

Kevster wrote:

So long as Kenny is leader of Fine Gael, I will never vote for them. He lacks charisma and I never really know what direction his party is taking. They appear to be the perpetual moaners and seem hell-bent on criticising, rather than creating.

Well they have a lot to moan about. Its hard to be creators while in opposition

juuge

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The trouble is CJH got away with it. So tribunals are only good in hindsight, they do not deal with current accusations of corruption. What good (apart from the legal fees for Barristers) is finding out years later that certain politicians and officials were corrupt, it still does not stop any such individuals in current times, if anything gives them comfort knowing that any misdeeds that may be unearthed later will be have no significant effect. This a is sad reality.

The one element missing in all of this is basic decency.
Politicians particularly FF ones, lack decency and honesty. Do they not realise that they are sullying the name of politics, is this how they want to be remembered, because they will not be forgotten. Their children will suffer the shame and embarrassment of having a corrupt father/mother and this will become part of our history, and all for a few ‘bob’..
You need to look no further than the present government to see their lack of shame, they hold their heads high as though nothing is wrong and continually defend the indefensible. They should all hang their heads in shame.

El Stuntman

I think this is good politics by Kenny and Gilmore and they should keep hammering their "Bertie unfit, resign" (if I can summarise it in those terms) message home non-stop. It keeps Bertie's unbelievable tales of where he got the money from in the public eye, keeps the pressure on the Greens and Harney, and, most importantly, will be causing a lot of squirming inside FF.

it's only a pity that they didn't do this before the election

EamonnKeane

FF have lowered public confidence in Irish politics to such an extent that we don't even care about ceding sovereignty to the EU, because we don't trust ourselves to rule ourselves honetly and competently.

El Stuntman

I see the Dig Out Don of Drumcondra has come out over lunchtime and described Kenny's statement that he is not tax compliant as a 'barefaced lie'

if he is compliant, what's he doing lodging 70k with the Revenue? Why did he say he'd checked his tax position with the Revenue when he hadn't?

this is becoming highly unedifying

brianthebard

El Stuntman wrote: »

I think this is good politics by Kenny and Gilmore and they should keep hammering their "Bertie unfit, resign" (if I can summarise it in those terms) message home non-stop. It keeps Bertie's unbelievable tales of where he got the money from in the public eye, keeps the pressure on the Greens and Harney, and, most importantly, will be causing a lot of squirming inside FF.

I agree, it shows that they really don't believe him and that they will try their best to force him out. Much better than having one no confidence vote and then sitting back for five years.

it's only a pity that they didn't do this before the election

Perhaps, but the info we have now wasn't out at the time. Kenny said that he wouldn't fight a dirty campaign and he didn't. It was McDowell who made the most noise about the leaked tribunal documents during the election. With hindsight its easy to say that FG could've used it to their advantage but it could easily have been turned against them either, and made to look like they were bullying Ahern.

El Stuntman

brianthebard wrote: »

Perhaps, but the info we have now wasn't out at the time. Kenny said that he wouldn't fight a dirty campaign and he didn't. It was McDowell who made the most noise about the leaked tribunal documents during the election. With hindsight its easy to say that FG could've used it to their advantage but it could easily have been turned against them either, and made to look like they were bullying Ahern.

I disagree - I thought that even the info that was out before the election was damning enough for FG/Lab to make it a focal point of the campaign. You only have to look at BA's demeanour when the story came out - a guilty man, with something very much to hide.

IMO, it was a massive strategic error to take FF on more or less solely over the economy which, at the time, appeared to be their strongest selling point -argued by their strongest performer (Cowen). An opportunity lost through lack of guts.

jmayo

El Stuntman wrote: »

I disagree - I thought that even the info that was out before the election was damning enough for FG/Lab to make it a focal point of the campaign. You only have to look at BA's demeanour when the story came out - a guilty man, with something very much to hide.

IMO, it was a massive strategic error to take FF on more or less solely over the economy which, at the time, appeared to be their strongest selling point -argued by their strongest performer (Cowen). An opportunity lost through lack of guts.

The worrying thing at the time for FG/Lab was they were going to get hammering in the opinion polls (as they had done previously) for daring to attack poor bertie over his digouts due to his failed marriage and him having to provide for his poor wee children.
What a crock of **** that Dobson and RTE through their sheer incompetence helped spin.

Remember a lot of people that are now acting scantimonious about Ahern were voting for him or his lackies, because God forbid the FG/Lab charisma lacking, but at least more honest politicans, would get in.

Victor

Kevster wrote: »

They appear to be the perpetual moaners and seem hell-bent on criticising, rather than creating.

I misread that initially, as:

They appear to be the perpetual moaners and seem hell-bent on criticising, rather than cheating.

Freudian?

El Stuntman

jmayo wrote: »

The worrying thing at the time for FG/Lab was they were going to get hammering in the opinion polls (as they had done previously) for daring to attack poor bertie over his digouts due to his failed marriage and him having to provide for his poor wee children.

A pedantic point!

I am sick to death of the use of the term 'dig-out'.
It implies some kind of acceptance of Ahern's story (which does not stand up to the known facts).

can we just say 'unexplained large sums of cash' instead? Much more accurate imo