Kenny statement on Bertie

jmayo

El Stuntman wrote: »

A pedantic point!

I am sick to death of the use of the term 'dig-out'.
It implies some kind of acceptance of Ahern's story (which does not stand up to the known facts).

can we just say 'unexplained large sums of cash' instead? Much more accurate imo

Look I know that what he got was not your usual digout.
It was of course used because afterall he is "a man of the people" and to describe his cash receipts in terms of digouts would make it more palatable to his voters and apologists.
It sounds better than saying he got gifts or just a brown paper envelop or jiffy bag stuffed full of cash.
Now that would sound dodgy and seedy.

El Stuntman

jmayo wrote: »

It sounds better than saying he got gifts or just a brown paper envelop or jiffy bag stuffed full of cash.
Now that would sound dodgy and seedy.

call a spade a spade so

it is dodgy, it is seedy and we, the people, should be hopping mad about it

strangely enough, we don't seem too bothered

Sleepy

El Stuntman, to be fair, I think everyone bar the Fianna Fail voters are hopping mad about it. The problem is that they're in the majority and don't give a fiddler's what Bertie & Co get up to once they attend the granny's funeral and sort out the path in front of the house.

Knowing you're in the minority, that the minority you're part of is fragmented and that if you're really honest about it, you don't particularly like any of the opposition all that much either makes it very difficult for people to bring themselves to act.

eoin5

Wicknight wrote: »

Well yes, but the problem is the corruption itself.

Corruption is completely unacceptable (or should be) in a modern democracy. It is not the same as the government simply doing a bad job. Mismanagement is simply something that comes hand in hand with democracy. I'm not saying I think mismanagement is good, but it is part of the system, it falls inside the term "democracy", where as corruption isn't. It needs to be routed out before anything else.

I'd like that to be true but we are a representative democracy in a capitalist state so corruption is part of the system we are dealing with at the moment. I'm not saying there should be but there will be. Its a factor that must be kept as low as possible as corruption damages any democracy. Routing it out fully though is impossible unless the system changes. Its a fact you have to acknowledge before attempting to fight it.

Theres a lot we can do to fight it but making ourselves fixated on it without any context on what difference it actually means for the country lends it too much weight. Its very pallatable for the media so any sort of scandal is immediatedly plastered on our papers and screens. The corruption itself damages the democracy but this aimless coverage amplifies the damage. Youll get the public disengaged with the process (theyre all a bunch of crooks, why should I vote at all etc) and the politicians end up spending more time dirt dealing than making the country better. It doesnt help reality that the politics and the celeb worlds have collided either. The high moral ground means more than any policy at the moment.

Thankfully we have evolved to be able to out corruption to a reasonable degree (I think anyway, tribunals are doing their jobs although theres a lot of room for improvement). If we kept it well documented in the media with a sense of context and didnt have the likes of Kenny making matters worse by saying unnecessary things we could have one less shackel to worry about.

The bigger picture for the country isnt corruption itself but is the desperate health service, the planning (neck deep in corruption, a good area for focus), national transport, economic slowdown etc. If the politicians are seen to really be trying to get the problems sorted maybe people will have more faith in the system too.

murphaph

Imagine if Gordon Brown wasn't 110% tax compliant! Gordon who? This country is a farce and has been since 'independence'.

blast05

Kevster wrote: »

So long as Kenny is leader of Fine Gael, I will never vote for them. He lacks charisma and I never really know what direction his party is taking. They appear to be the perpetual moaners and seem hell-bent on criticising, rather than creating.

The reality of Kenny on a one to one or in a small group is that he has bucket fulls of charisma. For whatever reason, this does not seem to come accross when he is on Q&A or giving speeches in the Dail or whatever. I recall being at a wedding where friends were at the same table as him and he held the table spell bound with some of his stories. What you see is what you get with him and i get a very strong feeling from him that he if he became Taoiseach in the morning he would do what ever it took to do the right thing for this country, even if it involved sacking a minister every month or doing things that the majority of the electorate did not want. I hope we some day get the chance to see that and that sooner rather than later, the little sleeveen currently in charge is given the road sooner rather than later by his spineless colleagues

Mr.Micro

I am not a fan of Bertie's but he is a tough nut to crack. He did not get the title of " teflon " for nothing. There is an undercurrent there that is just below the surface if journos or political opponents push his buttons too far, the inner gurrier snaps back like poor old Enda Kenny got at the weekend. Bertie will hang in there IMO and I do not think there is a FF TD in the whole party going to stand up to him, so its left to the minority opposition to try to inflict some damage to the teflon double coat. No chance.

El Stuntman

not a FF minister in sight to defend the Bert, interesting. A backbencher wheeled out on Prime Time last night and 'no FF minister was available' on the radio this morning

Some journo on Newstalk this morning was saying that Kenny and co. will be hounding FF ministers over the next few months and challenging them to stand up and say they believe Bertie's fairytales. It'll be intriguing to see which FF TD cracks first

Red Alert

Michael Lowery was got rid of incredibly quickly by the then leadership of FG (not Enda Kenny). Lowery's offence was pretty much cut-and-dried and he owned up to it. He had his house lavishly extended and refurbished by ben dunne - immediate conflict of interest there. He had to go and he went.

FF on the other hand is riddled with a culture of vested interests, corruption and deceit. The cancer created by Haughey, Lawlor, Burke and others is by now growing all over the party. Padraic Flynn gives away a national asset to a scandanavian company, whilst his daughter is exposed by RTE for her dodgy dealings whilst working for NIB. Bertie was in rooms and pubs where cheques and large cash bribes were handed over, as claimed by Mary O'Rourke. He hoodwinked the public with his 'full and frank' disclosure as given unchallenged to Brian Dobson on RTE. The tribunal were told a complex mess by the taoiseach - while at the same time being accused of victimising him. Meanwhile 'Team Goebbles' consisting of the Tainiste and Minister for Finance Brian Cowen, John 'I know nothing' Gormley and Brian 'Privacy' Lenehan got to work on reinforcing the teflon lining.

jmayo

Red Alert wrote: »

FF on the other hand is riddled with a culture of vested interests, corruption and deceit. The cancer created by Haughey, Lawlor, Burke and others is by now growing all over the party. Padraic Flynn gives away a national asset to a scandanavian company, whilst his daughter is exposed by RTE for her dodgy dealings whilst working for NIB. Bertie was in rooms and pubs where cheques and large cash bribes were handed over, as claimed by Mary O'Rourke. He hoodwinked the public with his 'full and frank' disclosure as given unchallenged to Brian Dobson on RTE. The tribunal were told a complex mess by the taoiseach - while at the same time being accused of victimising him. Meanwhile 'Team Goebbles' consisting of the Tainiste and Minister for Finance Brian Cowen, John 'I know nothing' Gormley and Brian 'Privacy' Lenehan got to work on reinforcing the teflon lining.

I really marvel at the fact how all these former righteous holier than thou politicans, firstly in the PDs and then the Greens sold out so readily once they got into power with FF. Somuch for their ethics and high moral gorund in politics. Just goes to show power corrupts even the incorruptable :rolleyes:

Kenny's remarks at the weekend were brilliant because they forced the lying low Cowan to actually come out and either defend bertie or challenge him.
Of course he took the cowardly less principled option.
Before that Cowan was not saying much, hoping he would not be touched by the stench that invariably will taint all those that have vociferously and staunchly defended bertie's actions.
Also it was aimed to put a shot across the bows of a few backbenchers who may be worried that they scraped in the last time and with a backlsh the next time they would not make it.

But then again this is Ireland and the voters seem to forget how much our politicans, particularly the soldiers of destiny, have screwed and mugged us down through the years.

Maybe nothing will happen to bertie until the next local/European elections or a by election if it were to occurr sooner.
Sooner or later the followers will realise he has becoome a liability and he will be shafted just like his predecessors.
I just hope Albert is interviewed that night on TV

Mr.Micro

Jmayo. Denis Healy the former UK MP was once asked to comment on how he felt with regard to personal criticism of him by one Geoffery Howe, one of Thatchers ministers many years ago. Mr Healy brushed off the criticism and replied "it was like being worried by a dead sheep". This is how Bertie might possibly regard Mr.Kenny's remarks at the weekend, no disrespect to Mr. Kenny, he appears a decent man but I do not think he is gritty enough to tackle the Government. With regard to Mr. Cowan he clearly is not living up to his nickname of "Biffo".:D

stevoman

I have to say i like Kenny. Anyone that has the audacity to talk about himself in the third person gets my vote anytime!!!:)

AckwelFoley

Kenny as the leader of the oppisition parties campaign for an alternative government failed because they spend too much tim trying to discredit FF and not enough time talking politics, facts and figures.

Its basically, sure ok you told us bertie and FF are X Y Z, but we know their policies and how they run the country.. but what Mr Kenny are you going to do outside bitch talking about other parties and people.

Lets here some politics.

AckwelFoley

Originally Posted by Red Alert
FF on the other hand is riddled with a culture of vested interests, corruption and deceit

While i disagree with the severity of the problem within FF, if you think for a second that it would be any different with any other party you are badly mistaken, and rather niave on the powers of human greed and self interest

dresden8

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Jmayo. Denis Healy the former UK MP was once asked to comment on how he felt with regard to personal criticism of him by one Geoffery Howe, one of Thatchers ministers many years ago. Mr Healy brushed off the criticism and replied "it was like being worried by a dead sheep". This is how Bertie might possibly regard Mr.Kenny's remarks at the weekend, no disrespect to Mr. Kenny, he appears a decent man but I do not think he is gritty enough to tackle the Government. With regard to Mr. Cowan he clearly is not living up to his nickname of "Biffo".:D

And yet it was a rather severe savaging from Geoffrey Howe that was the beginning of the end for Thatcher, the toughest nut of them all.

murphaph

The Bertie's not for turning!

ballooba

snyper wrote: »

While i disagree with the severity of the problem within FF, if you think for a second that it would be any different with any other party you are badly mistaken, and rather niave on the powers of human greed and self interest

Perhaps other parties would not be so brazen about it.

AckwelFoley

Perhaps, or perhaps not.

However, political corruption is a reality of EVERY government in every country, its not an Irish thing.

The bottom line is the voters really dont care, what the voters really care about is if they have a job, money in the pocket and are content with life. As soon as their conditions change, the voters blame someone and generally its the government, hence why there was a bigger turnover in governments in the 80's comnared to the late 90's and now

Mr.Micro

dresden8 wrote: »

And yet it was a rather severe savaging from Geoffrey Howe that was the beginning of the end for Thatcher, the toughest nut of them all.

Thatcher took her friends for granted and a non offensive, ally and friend Geoffrey Howe turned on her when she went a step too far. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer( W. Churchill). Why must all political leaders turn into meglomaniacs?

jmayo

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Jmayo. Denis Healy the former UK MP was once asked to comment on how he felt with regard to personal criticism of him by one Geoffery Howe, one of Thatchers ministers many years ago. Mr Healy brushed off the criticism and replied "it was like being worried by a dead sheep". This is how Bertie might possibly regard Mr.Kenny's remarks at the weekend, no disrespect to Mr. Kenny, he appears a decent man but I do not think he is gritty enough to tackle the Government. With regard to Mr. Cowan he clearly is not living up to his nickname of "Biffo".:D

Yep I know bertie is much smarter tougher political animal in that he will do everything and anything to stay in power, much like CJH.
Except CJH was not as good at smooching to people as bertie.
I will say bertie is good at poltical manoeuvers and negotiations, although some of these negotiations have sever long term fallout.
He has been good for FF and you could say for NI, but bad for this country because his policies and economic decisions will come home to roost with a vengence.
Everything has been done in order to win the next election, to keep vested interests happy in order to remain in power, to make sure friendly donators are highly rewarded and nothing was done with a view to the long term future of the country.

Biffo is playing a waiting game, hoping that he does not alienate any of berties followers and that he is not damaged long term by the sleaze surrounding the once esteemed leader.
I think what Kenny has done is put the ball in Cowans court and see what he does with it.
So far he is either playing keepey uppies or trying to hammer it back at Kenny.
Maybe the best thing long term for FG was loosing the last election. At least FF are in government when bertie may be totally found out and the economy goes to hell.

To comment on last post, why must all political leaders outstate their welcome and why must almost all political careers end in failure ?

AckwelFoley

He has been good for FF and you could say for NI, but bad for this country because his policies and economic decisions will come home to roost with a vengence.

^

I thought id have to go to the humor forum to find a good laugh.

Have you a mere handful examples of economic decisions he has made thats going to ruin us?

Maybe the best thing long term for FG was loosing the last election. At least FF are in government when bertie may be totally found out and the economy goes to hell.

Its been a long time since Enda and his bunch have been in power, they've lost all of the last elections, so it makes your point of "finding out" null and void, FF governments have provided the basis for this countries economic success

While there is a world wide decline in economic progression, Ireland have although slowed remain strong.

LostinBlanch

I'm in two minds about this.

1. I'd wonder what would happen if Bertie pushed too far and Enda Kenny sued him for defamation. His lawyers would really be able to go for the throat and not be constrained like in the tribunals. That way they'd be able to go through the issues that the tribunal is not allowed to investigate. I think Ballooba listed the areas that the tribunal is precluded from investigating.

2. If that happened, I'm sure that Bertie would do everything to drag it out for as long as possible, and then try and say that all discussion of the case would be sub judice so no one would be able to discuss it publicly. Either that or say let the court case happen first of all, and then roll out Willie O'Dea to attack the court and lawyers.

jmayo

snyper wrote: »

^

I thought id have to go to the humor forum to find a good laugh.

Have you a mere handful examples of economic decisions he has made thats going to ruin us?

Its been a long time since Enda and his bunch have been in power, they've lost all of the last elections, so it makes your point of "finding out" null and void, FF governments have provided the basis for this countries economic success

While there is a world wide decline in economic progression, Ireland have although slowed remain strong.

Would we have a soldier of destiny here by any chance :rolleyes:
Worldwide decline in economic progression ?
More like onset of recession.

Ah yes FF are responsible for all economic growth since the foundation of the state.
I know they have made sure their building friends have done well, so I give you they are partially responsible for the growth in unsustainable residential construction. The others reposnisble include our banks and financial institutions that gave out money at the drop of a hat.

Maybe the fact that he allowed the economy to become too dependent on housing (all those section 23/50s etc) would be the first decision that is going to have long terms consequences. But you should be ok so long you don't live in, lets say Gorey in an overpriced apartment/town house that you will find unsellable.
Worse still you could have a few summer homes in Leitrim.

Also the decisions on allowing increases in public sector workers will have long term consequences on public spending.

El Stuntman

snyper wrote: »

^

I thought id have to go to the humor forum to find a good laugh.

Have you a mere handful examples of economic decisions he has made thats going to ruin us?

1. Benchmarking
2. Total lack of financial management in the public service (witness cost overruns a la the HSE, project delays on almost every major project). E-voting anyone? How about integrated ticketing?
3. Inflation way above the EU average, eroding our competitive position slowly and surely
4. Total submission to the builders lobby (Galways Race FF tent crowd) allowing a completely unbalanced and overly-indebted economy to emerge

Wait two years and then come back and tell me about Ahern's economic genius

I give him and McCreevy some kudos for the SSIA scheme btw

El Stuntman

Snyper - as a FF supporter, do you believe everything that Bertie has said regarding the large amounts of cash he received?

yes or no answer please (no O'Dea seguing off into weird rhetorical flights of fancy please)

Mr.Micro

To comment on last post, why must all political leaders outstate their welcome and why must almost all political careers end in failure ?[/QUOTE]JMAYO

I agree with you jmayo, the trouble is like Blair, Thatcher, and Bertie politicians do not know when to leave. I agree about Bertie, his Governments almost total dependence on construction has been the mainstay of the economy, creaming the stamp duty from the housing boom. What sort of long term economic policy is that? Bertie only does something when pushed , he is not an instigator of new policies to improve the country, the country need somebody more dynamic.

AckwelFoley

El Stuntman wrote: »

Snyper - as a FF supporter, do you believe everything that Bertie has said regarding the large amounts of cash he received?

yes or no answer please (no O'Dea seguing off into weird rhetorical flights of fancy please)

Firlst things first, i never said i was a FF supporter, i merely decided not to listen to everything the media decide to print.

Do i believe everything he said? No on your life. Do i think any other party would be diffenent, not a chance.

Ah yes FF are responsible for all economic growth since the foundation of the state.
I know they have made sure their building friends have done well, so I give you they are partially responsible for the growth in unsustainable residential construction. The others reposnisble include our banks and financial institutions that gave out money at the drop of a hat.

Maybe the fact that he allowed the economy to become too dependent on housing (all those section 23/50s etc) would be the first decision that is going to have long terms consequences. But you should be ok so long you don't live in, lets say Gorey in an overpriced apartment/town house that you will find unsellable.
Worse still you could have a few summer homes in Leitrim.

I wont even bother to reply to that drivel, im not a builder as suce, yes ive worked 18 hour days 6 and 7 day weeks to build the houses i own, dont i deserve that, i suspect your answer is no.

1. Benchmarking
2. Total lack of financial management in the public service (witness cost overruns a la the HSE, project delays on almost every major project). E-voting anyone? How about integrated ticketing?

not going to ruin the economy

3. Inflation way above the EU average, eroding our competitive position slowly and surely

annual inflation rose in twenty-four Member States and fell in two. Ireland's standardised rate in November was 3.5%. avg 3.1%.. want to blame our government for all 26?

4. Total submission to the builders lobby (Galways Race FF tent crowd) allowing a completely unbalanced and overly-indebted economy to emerge

More left wing drivel. As soon as the left wingers account for jobs and groth in this country we can debate further.

we are a representative democracy in a capitalist state

We are not a capitalist state. Brazil are, we however are not.

is_that_so

If all it is about is the economy then one cannot argue, but sadly this economy seems to have bred a generation extremely high on self gratification and fairly low on how it comes about. Notwithstanding some of the initiatives that have come from FF governments, FF by their nature have always been the populist party. They'll gladly change their spots for a dime.

The alternatives are exactly that, an alternative way of looking at it that is not FF.

jmayo

snyper wrote: »

Firlst things first, i never said i was a FF supporter, i merely decided not to listen to everything the media decide to print.

Do i believe everything he said? No on your life. Do i think any other party would be diffenent, not a chance.

I wont even bother to reply to that drivel, im not a builder as suce, yes ive worked 18 hour days 6 and 7 day weeks to build the houses i own, dont i deserve that, i suspect your answer is no.

not going to ruin the economy

annual inflation rose in twenty-four Member States and fell in two. Ireland's standardised rate in November was 3.5%. avg 3.1%.. want to blame our government for all 26?

More left wing drivel. As soon as the left wingers account for jobs and groth in this country we can debate further.

We are not a capitalist state. Brazil are, we however are not.

So we are communists, left wing nut jobs and media led eejits because we dare say that the last 5 years have really only long term benefits for a certain group, i.e. the developers and builders.
This same group all seem to spend a large amount of time in a certain tent at the Galway races, funny isn't it.
The rest of us will be paying for the party for a long long time to come.

Look at how many devleopers now inhabit the top 50 of the rich list in Ireland. What have they done?
Have they created enterprises that add to our exports or created enterprises that create long term sustainable jobs?
No, they have bought land and obtaiined planning (sometimes using dubious means) and then build crap shoeboxes with little or no public facilities for the future buyers. Then they sold them at hugely inflated prices to people who will be saddled with a 40 year 100% mortgage.

You said you built your own houses, well fair play to you.
You are "not a builder as such", what does that mean exactly ?
If you were or are a builder (i.e. working in the building trade) then you would have had 5 great years, yes you would have worked hard but you also would have earned well.

Anyway you can thank bertie when the value of those houses plummet, because unlike what most of the bertie followers and the builders/developers/bank economists/estate agents (are they not all vested interests I hear you say) have predicted over the last few years, Ireland's bubble will eventually end just like every other one in history.

El Stuntman

snyper wrote: »

Do i believe everything he said? No on your life. Do i think any other party would be diffenent, not a chance.

so your argument can be paraphrased as "shure they're all the same"

sorry that doesn't wash and it doesn't excuse

snyper wrote: »

More left wing drivel. As soon as the left wingers account for jobs and groth in this country we can debate further.

lol, believe me I am very far from the left wing. I've never voted in a General Election here (variety of reasons) either so I don't have any party political bias. If I did vote it would probably be PD.

I'd just like to see competent, honest government. Not too big an ask is it? Oh wait....:mad: