Advice for a beginner(sort-of). Please help!

thed4king

Hopefully you guys could help me out on this one,

Ok, i'm 15, almost 16, and am very keen to take up target shooting/shooting with a rifle. I have been shooting live game and clay pigeon with my dad's shotgun for the past number of years now, but fancy the challenge of more accurate target shooting. My dad and his friends own a clay pigeon trap and i still enjoy it, but, as i say, would like try something more accurate. I have shot with one of my dads friends rifle one night while shooting fox's, and i really enjoyed it.
I have an good accurate shot with shotgun, so hopefully i should get the hang of shooting through a scope fairly easily.(Optimism is always best!)

So, i am hoping that you people could set me in the right direction. What type of rifle should i start with? I would like to be able to shoot targets and game with the same rifle, is that possible? Im already a junior member of the local gun club, but should i join a rifle specific club? Issues regarding law/license?? I have saved money from working last year and have approx.€700 to spend on getting started, but im sure if i was short my parents would chip in.

As i say, any advice will be greatly appreciated, and will hopefully send me in the right direction. Thanks in advance!!!

IRLConor

Try before you buy!

Join a club first and use their club guns and equipment. It's a much cheaper way of trying it out and you can also try out different types of target shooting (there are lots!). Save your money until you know what you want to buy. You never know, you might find you don't like rifle shooting and that €700 could go some way to getting a nice shotgun.

thed4king

Thanks! I have made enquiries and nobody seems to know of a club in Co. Kildare. Also, tbh, i would really like to have a rifle which i could use for hunting aswell and not limit myself to targets. Does such a style of gun exists?
Thanks for the help, and if you hear of any clubs in Kildare area, let me know!

thed4king

Also, if anyone else has advice on some starter gear, licenses at my age etc i would be very grateful. Cheers!

IRLConor

thed4king wrote: »

Also, tbh, i would really like to have a rifle which i could use for hunting aswell and not limit myself to targets. Does such a style of gun exists?

Yes, there is overlap between hunting rifles and target shooting rifles but not all target shooting rifles are useful for hunting and not all hunting rifles are suitable for target shooting.

On the target shooting side of things the rules of the particular type of target shooting restrict what kind of rifle you can use.

On the hunting side of things the type of animal(s) you're hunting will determine the most suitable rifle.

And lastly, depending on your local superintendent there may be some rifles that he won't be willing to license to you.

thed4king wrote: »

Thanks for the help, and if you hear of any clubs in Kildare area, let me know!

Will do. The nearest ones to you that I know of are in Dublin (DRC), Meath (Wilkinstown), Wicklow (Rathdrum & Hilltop) and Offaly (Midlands). So you're surrounded!

thed4king

Thank you again for your help. I recently spent a night shooting with some people and one of them mentioned a Remington Rifle as a place for me to start. I have done a bit of research on the brand and they seem to have quite a broad range of rifles. Also i noticed that a couple of posters here mentioned that they had Remingtons. Any suggestions towards any other brand/model etc i should look into??? thanks again,
John.

bunny shooter

Is it legal for someone under 16 to use a firearm ?

IRLConor

bunny shooter wrote: »

Is it legal for someone under 16 to use a firearm ?

As I understand it: USE: yes, OWN: no.

rrpc

It's possess, carry and use Conor. Without a certificate (which cannot be issued to someone under 16) it's not legal.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

It's possess, carry and use Conor. Without a certificate (which cannot be issued to someone under 16) it's not legal.

Thought so as my local clay pigeon range won't let under 16's shoot AFAIK

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

It's possess, carry and use Conor. Without a certificate (which cannot be issued to someone under 16) it's not legal.

Except under a club authorisation (which is how WTSC and the pony club operate) - or when at a firing range, at which point article 2 says that everything's kosher.

sidneyreilly

Sparks wrote: »

Except under a club authorisation (which is how WTSC and the pony club operate) - or when at a firing range, at which point article 2 says that everything's kosher.

Very true. Some club authorisations however specify a minimum age. Sparks, could you detail that part of the act for future ref?

Sparks

sidneyreilly wrote: »

Very true. Some club authorisations however specify a minimum age.

Yes, but I'm not sure if that's legally binding, given the wording of the Firearms Act.

Sparks, could you detail that part of the act for future ref?

It's section 2.4(d):

2.—(1) Subject to the exceptions from this section hereinafter mentioned, it shall not be lawful for any person after the commencement of this Act to have in his possession, use, or carry any firearm or ammunition save in so far as such possession, use, or carriage is authorised by a firearm certificate granted under this Act and for the time being in force.

This sets up to say there are exemptions from the requirement to have the licence; then section 4 lists them:

(4) This section shall not apply to any of the following cases and such cases are accordingly excepted from this section, that is to say:
...
(d) the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition during a competition or target practice at a club, shooting range or any other place that stands authorised under this section or section 4A of this Act

rrpc

It's not that grey an area:

1925(8) as amended by 1964(17)

8.—(1) The following persons are hereby declared to be disentitled to hold a firearm certificate, that is to say:

(a)any person under the age of sixteen years, ....

(2) Any person who is by virtue of this section disentitled to hold a firearm certificate shall also be disentitled to hold a permit under this Act in relation to any firearm or ammunition.

and Section 2(5)(d) as amended by 1964(15)

(d) A Superintendent may impose in relation to the grant of an authorisation under this section such conditions (if any) as he considers necessary to prevent danger to the public and, where a condition is imposed, it shall be specified in the authorisation.

Sparks

Section 8 doesn't apply since Section 2 is saying that you don't need a certificate to use the firearm; and Section 2(5)(d) does not permit the Superintendent to overrule 2(4)(d) according to the ruling in Dunne v Donoghue and the general rule that a Garda can't overrule the oireachtas...

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Section 8 doesn't apply since Section 2 is saying that you don't need a certificate to use the firearm; and Section 2(5)(d) does not permit the Superintendent to overrule 2(4)(d) according to the ruling in Dunne v Donoghue and the general rule that a Garda can't overrule the oireachtas...

Dunne v Donohoe was not concerned with 2(4)(d), but with conditions relating to the grant of firearms certificates under section 2(1).

And section 8 does not confine itself to certificates but also to permits. Admittedly, it's a loophole, but this next bit closes that loophole.

The grant of authorisations or permits is a separate issue and is covered by section 2(5)(d). A superintendent may attach any conditions to an authorisation and if they say nobody under the age of 16, then that's quite legal. That right is given to them by the firearms act and the word used is any.

Sparks

I'm not sure I was clear enough rrpc - Dunne v Donoghue applies here because the only way that you could block an under-16 from using a firearm under 2(4)(d) is if the Superintendent is permitted to make age a precondition on the Authorisation for a range, or for age to be a precondition to getting the range licence under section 4A when it comes into force.

Thing is, Dunne's ruling explicitly stated that the Commissioner could not issue blanket preconditions that went over and beyond the Act - and neither could Superintendents (see paragraphs 64 and 66 of the High Court ruling). Now that's a ruling that can be circumvented quite readily by denying that a particular precondition (like needing a gunsafe with a monitored alarm for a pistol, say) is not a blanket precondition, just an individual precondition that has by coincidence happened to be applied to everyone who's applied for a pistol :rolleyes:

Age, however, is about as close to the definition of a blanket precondition as you could get, so that stance on the part of the Gardai wouldn't hold up, even in the most partisan arena. And a blanket precondition on age does go over and above the Act because the Act only ever mentioned age in relation to being able to hold a licence. There isn't word one in there about age limits for authorisations.

I think there's sufficient wiggle room to take a case to the Circuit court, and certainly the precedent set over decades by the pony club and junior clubs would weigh on your side.

That said, it'd be a far more productive approach to try to get an authorisation that didn't mention age in the first place!

thed4king

Yes well just to let you all know, im 16 in 3 weeks so i'll be perfectly legal to possess my own firearm then. I'm a responsible person who has been shooting for years with my father. Where's the problem there??? I'm sure most people will agree when i say that its better to start young and gain valuable experience about safety etc from the early teenage years. It is interesting though to read the above posts and i thank everyone for contributing.

So, seeing as i will be perfectly legally aloud to do so, does anyone else have any other advice for me?????

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

I'm not sure I was clear enough rrpc - Dunne v Donoghue applies here because the only way that you could block an under-16 from using a firearm under 2(4)(d) is if the Superintendent is permitted to make age a precondition on the Authorisation for a range, or for age to be a precondition to getting the range licence under section 4A when it comes into force.

Thing is, Dunne's ruling explicitly stated that the Commissioner could not issue blanket preconditions that went over and beyond the Act - and neither could Superintendents (see paragraphs 64 and 66 of the High Court ruling). Now that's a ruling that can be circumvented quite readily by denying that a particular precondition (like needing a gunsafe with a monitored alarm for a pistol, say) is not a blanket precondition, just an individual precondition that has by coincidence happened to be applied to everyone who's applied for a pistol :rolleyes:

You're mixing apples and oranges. D v D was in relation to FAC's not authorisations, so that was not tested. In addition, the act specifically allows the Super to attach any conditions to an authorisation. The fact that age is a factor in disentitlement to hold a FAC, would make it a reasonable condition to attach to an authorisation. The fact that at the time of D v D there was no mention of safe storage anywhere in the act and that every FAC was issued with a requirement for safe storage meant that the case was lost because the Commissioner was changing the law.

Age, however, is about as close to the definition of a blanket precondition as you could get, so that stance on the part of the Gardai wouldn't hold up, even in the most partisan arena. And a blanket precondition on age does go over and above the Act because the Act only ever mentioned age in relation to being able to hold a licence. There isn't word one in there about age limits for authorisations.

No, there isn't, but that doesn't mean that it can't be inferred because since certificates and authorisations are both stated under section 2, the factors for disentitlement could be reasonably applied to both. Or else anyone disentitled to hold a FAC could conceivably hold an authorisation (which are not just issued to clubs btw).

I think there's sufficient wiggle room to take a case to the Circuit court, and certainly the precedent set over decades by the pony club and junior clubs would weigh on your side.

I don't. Any lawyer worth his salt would point to the fact that under an authorisation a person of 'unsound mind' could possess a firearm. No judge would agree to that.

That said, it'd be a far more productive approach to try to get an authorisation that didn't mention age in the first place!

I think you would be best to specifically ask for that before chancing it.

rrpc

thed4king wrote: »

Yes well just to let you all know, im 16 in 3 weeks so i'll be perfectly legal to possess my own firearm then. I'm a responsible person who has been shooting for years with my father. Where's the problem there??? I'm sure most people will agree when i say that its better to start young and gain valuable experience about safety etc from the early teenage years. It is interesting though to read the above posts and i thank everyone for contributing.

I agree, which is why the training certificate was introduced in the 2006 act.

So, seeing as i will be perfectly legally aloud to do so, does anyone else have any other advice for me?????

The best advice is what Conor said. Join a club which unfortunately in your case will mean travelling a bit, but it's easily the best way to learn what you want to do and to get invaluable experience. As you say yourself, your father has given you the benefit of his experience with shotgun and the same will apply equally with the rifle.

I would also add that you try as many disciplines as you can before making up your mind. Different clubs do different things, some do lots, some are more narrow in focus, but take your time and enjoy the experience.

Fermoy would also be a reasonable distance away and they do quite a lot of different shoooting disciplines there.

thed4king

rrpc wrote: »

I agree, which is why the training certificate was introduced in the 2006 act.


The best advice is what Conor said. Join a club which unfortunately in your case will mean travelling a bit, but it's easily the best way to learn what you want to do and to get invaluable experience. As you say yourself, your father has given you the benefit of his experience with shotgun and the same will apply equally with the rifle.

I would also add that you try as many disciplines as you can before making up your mind. Different clubs do different things, some do lots, some are more narrow in focus, but take your time and enjoy the experience.

Fermoy would also be a reasonable distance away and they do quite a lot of different shoooting disciplines there.

Yes, i am definetly trying to join a club, but the distances are a problem. There is obviously nobody in Co. Kildare that posts here that hunts with a rifle!